Thousand Sons are dead...

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**ulgurstasta**

Formosa wrote:

See we KNOW this isnt true even in the slightest, we KNOW exactly what they used, its in the legions crusade army list, there are limits of course on some things but they have access to the entire legion list pretty much.

So its not a case of OP not knowing the TS fluff, its GW not knowing its own fluff as usual, there is zero, zilch reason why TS could not band together there heavy weapons into Havoc squads, there specials into special weapon squads.

When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.

The answer is pretty simple and obvious, 10,000 years has passed! Thousand sons are not the same organization it is in 30k, it has changed in structure, ethos and members. Why should they still mirror the legions 10k years in the past?

Now would I be against new rubric units? No, as long as they add something to the list and are not just because they are in the 30k list.

This is a pet peeve of mine, ever since the HH series exploded in popularity 30k has stopped being background to flesh out the 40k CSM and instead taking center-stage. It's even gotten to the level where we probably have more fluff for them in 30k then in 40k, which defeats the whole purpose of the HH for me. It was the 40k TS that made me love them, not 30k, and trying to make 40k TS to look more like 30k TS is all backwards.

30k =/= 40k

**Kdash**

Formosa wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Formosa wrote:

When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.

There are Rubric terminators. As for a lot of that other stuff, the Rubrics are probably too stupid to do any complex things without constant sorcerer supervision. Rubric command staff is right out.

nope not true, as elites they work, as HQ I agree nope, take an old praetor, he is now a rubric, so has a selection of weapons it could have, give it lower stats to represent its loss of "self", bam you have a rubric elite choice that is both fluffy and has a purpose (maybe an aura that -1 to LD or somthing), another is a legion herald, simply and Rubric with a Banner, next we can have a new character, a TS soul smith, someone has to repair the armour and either bring back rubricai or make new ones, GW makes up stuff like this all the time, it can be there apothecary equivalent, that 3 new elite choices.

Next we get Rubric, Rubric Hellfire squads (special weapon sqauds), Rubric Breachers (+1 AS for shield)

Heavy we get Rubric Havocs

so with very very little effort I have come up with easily convertible units, that 6 extra units that GW would not have to make a kit for.....

Just as a clarification – Most Thousand Sons Praetors in 30k were actually powerful psykers. This is referenced in the 30k game, as Praetors are often able to be lvl 3 psykers, and often had to be due to the Legion rules.

**BrianDavion**

Kdash wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Formosa wrote:

When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.

There are Rubric terminators. As for a lot of that other stuff, the Rubrics are probably too stupid to do any complex things without constant sorcerer supervision. Rubric command staff is right out.

nope not true, as elites they work, as HQ I agree nope, take an old praetor, he is now a rubric, so has a selection of weapons it could have, give it lower stats to represent its loss of "self", bam you have a rubric elite choice that is both fluffy and has a purpose (maybe an aura that -1 to LD or somthing), another is a legion herald, simply and Rubric with a Banner, next we can have a new character, a TS soul smith, someone has to repair the armour and either bring back rubricai or make new ones, GW makes up stuff like this all the time, it can be there apothecary equivalent, that 3 new elite choices.

Next we get Rubric, Rubric Hellfire squads (special weapon sqauds), Rubric Breachers (+1 AS for shield)

Heavy we get Rubric Havocs

so with very very little effort I have come up with easily convertible units, that 6 extra units that GW would not have to make a kit for.....

Just as a clarification – Most Thousand Sons Praetors in 30k were actually powerful psykers. This is referenced in the 30k game, as Praetors are often able to be lvl 3 psykers, and often had to be due to the Legion rules.

which means in 40k rules they'd be sorcrers.

**Formosa**

ulgurstasta wrote:
Formosa wrote:

See we KNOW this isnt true even in the slightest, we KNOW exactly what they used, its in the legions crusade army list, there are limits of course on some things but they have access to the entire legion list pretty much.

So its not a case of OP not knowing the TS fluff, its GW not knowing its own fluff as usual, there is zero, zilch reason why TS could not band together there heavy weapons into Havoc squads, there specials into special weapon squads.

When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.

The answer is pretty simple and obvious, 10,000 years has passed! Thousand sons are not the same organization it is in 30k, it has changed in structure, ethos and members. Why should they still mirror the legions 10k years in the past?

Now would I be against new rubric units? No, as long as they add something to the list and are not just because they are in the 30k list.

This is a pet peeve of mine, ever since the HH series exploded in popularity 30k has stopped being background to flesh out the 40k CSM and instead taking center-stage. It's even gotten to the level where we probably have more fluff for them in 30k then in 40k, which defeats the whole purpose of the HH for me. It was the 40k TS that made me love them, not 30k, and trying to make 40k TS to look more like 30k TS is all backwards.

30k =/= 40k

That's the thing, they ARE the same organisation, they are the same people more or less, the rubrics are not affected by mutation so all that equipment they had would still be there and even if it wasn't, why wouldn't a sorcerer instruct his heavy weapon rubrics to form a havoc squad, it doesn't make sense, hence the disconnect.

I am using the 30k list as a prime example of the gear they have, and had, then applying simple logic that after the burning of prospero, planet of the sorcerers (crimson king), then there are still a hell of a lot of normal marines in the old legion roles, assault marine etc.
Then apply the rubric, these same non psyker marines suddenly drop whatever equipment they have and pick up a bolter, it doesn't make sense.

**BrianDavion**

Formosa wrote:
ulgurstasta wrote:
Formosa wrote:

See we KNOW this isnt true even in the slightest, we KNOW exactly what they used, its in the legions crusade army list, there are limits of course on some things but they have access to the entire legion list pretty much.

So its not a case of OP not knowing the TS fluff, its GW not knowing its own fluff as usual, there is zero, zilch reason why TS could not band together there heavy weapons into Havoc squads, there specials into special weapon squads.

When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.

The answer is pretty simple and obvious, 10,000 years has passed! Thousand sons are not the same organization it is in 30k, it has changed in structure, ethos and members. Why should they still mirror the legions 10k years in the past?

Now would I be against new rubric units? No, as long as they add something to the list and are not just because they are in the 30k list.

This is a pet peeve of mine, ever since the HH series exploded in popularity 30k has stopped being background to flesh out the 40k CSM and instead taking center-stage. It's even gotten to the level where we probably have more fluff for them in 30k then in 40k, which defeats the whole purpose of the HH for me. It was the 40k TS that made me love them, not 30k, and trying to make 40k TS to look more like 30k TS is all backwards.

30k =/= 40k

That's the thing, they ARE the same organisation, they are the same people more or less, the rubrics are not affected by mutation so all that equipment they had would still be there and even if it wasn't, why wouldn't a sorcerer instruct his heavy weapon rubrics to form a havoc squad, it doesn't make sense, hence the disconnect.

I am using the 30k list as a prime example of the gear they have, and had, then applying simple logic that after the burning of prospero, planet of the sorcerers (crimson king), then there are still a hell of a lot of normal marines in the old legion roles, assault marine etc.
Then apply the rubric, these same non psyker marines suddenly drop whatever equipment they have and pick up a bolter, it doesn't make sense.

I can't see rubric assault marines but I get your point. thing is to say "ohh it's the same" ignores the time they've had to develop post Heresy. I definatly think we need to step away a bit from the 30k legions and try to look at what the 40k legions are. as I noted earlier.the thousand sons are a legion no longer, instead they are a loose band of sorcrer kings. a 1k sons sorcrer, with his rubric body guard, some demon engines and ahoard of mutants makes a pretty awesome idea for an army.but at the same time you'll be able to construct an ary where the 1k sons choose to go to war as well. varity is good.

**Crimson**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

2.) Most people have not addressed the smite change which is a big part of this complaint.

I'm pretty sure the Smite problem will be somehow addressed in the codex, or at least in the point when (if ever) the trial smite rules become real rules. They either exempt them from the limitation, or give them another powers. If this doesn't happen, then you can complain.

**tneva82**

Crimson wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

2.) Most people have not addressed the smite change which is a big part of this complaint.

I'm pretty sure the Smite problem will be somehow addressed in the codex, or at least in the point when (if ever) the trial smite rules become real rules. They either exempt them from the limitation, or give them another powers. If this doesn't happen, then you can complain.

Major logic problem with that arqument. Either GW has been holding for smite rules for months AND set it in stone(what sort of beta rules that is then?) or codex rules were finalized long before smite rules were even came up with. So BEST you can hope for is codex being errata'ed right away.

**BrianDavion**

Crimson wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

2.) Most people have not addressed the smite change which is a big part of this complaint.

I'm pretty sure the Smite problem will be somehow addressed in the codex, or at least in the point when (if ever) the trial smite rules become real rules. They either exempt them from the limitation, or give them another powers. If this doesn't happen, then you can complain.

I dunno, they've not addressed it with GKs

**Kdash**

BrianDavion wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Formosa wrote:

When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.

There are Rubric terminators. As for a lot of that other stuff, the Rubrics are probably too stupid to do any complex things without constant sorcerer supervision. Rubric command staff is right out.

nope not true, as elites they work, as HQ I agree nope, take an old praetor, he is now a rubric, so has a selection of weapons it could have, give it lower stats to represent its loss of "self", bam you have a rubric elite choice that is both fluffy and has a purpose (maybe an aura that -1 to LD or somthing), another is a legion herald, simply and Rubric with a Banner, next we can have a new character, a TS soul smith, someone has to repair the armour and either bring back rubricai or make new ones, GW makes up stuff like this all the time, it can be there apothecary equivalent, that 3 new elite choices.

Next we get Rubric, Rubric Hellfire squads (special weapon sqauds), Rubric Breachers (+1 AS for shield)

Heavy we get Rubric Havocs

so with very very little effort I have come up with easily convertible units, that 6 extra units that GW would not have to make a kit for.....

Just as a clarification – Most Thousand Sons Praetors in 30k were actually powerful psykers. This is referenced in the 30k game, as Praetors are often able to be lvl 3 psykers, and often had to be due to the Legion rules.

which means in 40k rules they'd be sorcrers.

I agree. Was stating the fact, as the original posted said that the Praetors would have all become Rubricai, when, in actual fact, due to their powers they would have remained as they were, and thus keep a "leadership" system in place.

**grouchoben**

To be fair, the rule is in beta stages. It's not decided whether it will be rolled out as a permanent change yet.

I'm more concerned about whether 1ksons will get the Chaos Familiar strategem, which is really well suited to them, especially Scarabs. When they can drop in and cast prescience, warptime or weaver of fates on themselves, they're a lot more tasty.

Fingers crossed that this ability is the Chapter Tactic - i.e. When part of a Thousand Sons detachment, aspiring sorcerers can be given a psychic power to replace the minismite. That would have a big effect on Rubrics and Scarabs' viability imo.

**Formosa**

Kdash wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Formosa wrote:

When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.

There are Rubric terminators. As for a lot of that other stuff, the Rubrics are probably too stupid to do any complex things without constant sorcerer supervision. Rubric command staff is right out.

nope not true, as elites they work, as HQ I agree nope, take an old praetor, he is now a rubric, so has a selection of weapons it could have, give it lower stats to represent its loss of "self", bam you have a rubric elite choice that is both fluffy and has a purpose (maybe an aura that -1 to LD or somthing), another is a legion herald, simply and Rubric with a Banner, next we can have a new character, a TS soul smith, someone has to repair the armour and either bring back rubricai or make new ones, GW makes up stuff like this all the time, it can be there apothecary equivalent, that 3 new elite choices.

Next we get Rubric, Rubric Hellfire squads (special weapon sqauds), Rubric Breachers (+1 AS for shield)

Heavy we get Rubric Havocs

so with very very little effort I have come up with easily convertible units, that 6 extra units that GW would not have to make a kit for.....

Just as a clarification – Most Thousand Sons Praetors in 30k were actually powerful psykers. This is referenced in the 30k game, as Praetors are often able to be lvl 3 psykers, and often had to be due to the Legion rules.

which means in 40k rules they'd be sorcrers.

I agree. Was stating the fact, as the original posted said that the Praetors would have all become Rubricai, when, in actual fact, due to their powers they would have remained as they were, and thus keep a "leadership" system in place.

Your right and wrong, not all praetors were psykers, but I do agree that they would be the "sorcerers" of 40k, but we are missing other command staff roles, a banner would be the most obvious and easiest to implement, literally just a Rubicai holding a magic banner of some sort, plus it's a sorcerer saying "hold this"

**Daedalus81**

Arachnofiend wrote:

It just occurred to me... Since the Tzaangor Skyfires use bows, I wonder if they'll be S:User. If so you could buff their shooting with a Herald.

I'm doubtful that we'll get Skyfires. Or at least i'm not holding out for them. GW did not enumerate or add "and more!" to the listed changes.

**Elbows**

I'm a bit curious. If people think Thousand Sons are dead now, what did they think when the full extent of Thousand Sons in 40K was a single unit of old metal infantry (with one weapon), and one named character?

**Daedalus81**

Elbows wrote:
I'm a bit curious. If people think Thousand Sons are dead now, what did they think when the full extent of Thousand Sons in 40K was a single unit of old metal infantry (with one weapon), and one named character?

Hyperbole knows no limits.

I'm most excited for stratagems and powers. I've been playing Black Legion, because I just can't give up VotLW. I'll miss Abby's rerolls, but i'm sure i'll find other tools.

**corpuschain**

Elbows wrote:
I'm a bit curious. If people think Thousand Sons are dead now, what did they think when the full extent of Thousand Sons in 40K was a single unit of old metal infantry (with one weapon), and one named character?

Hahahaha!

**changemod**

Elbows wrote:
I'm a bit curious. If people think Thousand Sons are dead now, what did they think when the full extent of Thousand Sons in 40K was a single unit of old metal infantry (with one weapon), and one named character?

A fraction of a larger faction, I assume.

**jeff white**

I think that the point is that you need to buy the new plastic beasties to stay 'competitive'.

**nintura**

GW are not making any new models unless it's far down the pipeline. If they had new models, like a 1k Sons Libby Dread, they'd have showed it off at the games day event. And on top of that, this book has probably been done for awhile, in production and print, before the new Smite rules even come out so the book probably won't be balanced for that either. And you still dont use smite from your small sorcs, the odds of blowing up and killing half your squad sucks. It's all pointless and Thousand Sons now, by fluff, should be on their way out as a Legion (Legion itself is a laugh as there are what, only a couple hundred left?).

Like OP said, it's now a Tzaangor codex supported by 1k Sons which do less than the Gors do already.

**ZebioLizard2**

It's all pointless and Thousand Sons now, by fluff, should be on their way out as a Legion (Legion itself is a laugh as there are what, only a couple hundred left?).

They can re-entomb the dust into new armors and they continue on, and they recruit new Sorcerers to lead them. While using slave armies at the forefront.

**Shadenuat**

- Faction that never had (?) codex gets one.
- "Faction is dead!"

Just Space Marine things.

**Crimson**

jeff white wrote:
I think that the point is that you need to buy the new plastic beasties to stay 'competitive'.

And you know this how?

**Bulldogging**

nintura wrote:
GW are not making any new models unless it's far down the pipeline. If they had new models, like a 1k Sons Libby Dread, they'd have showed it off at the games day event. And on top of that, this book has probably been done for awhile, in production and print, before the new Smite rules even come out so the book probably won't be balanced for that either. And you still dont use smite from your small sorcs, the odds of blowing up and killing half your squad sucks. It's all pointless and Thousand Sons now, by fluff, should be on their way out as a Legion (Legion itself is a laugh as there are what, only a couple hundred left?).

Like OP said, it's now a Tzaangor codex supported by 1k Sons which do less than the Gors do already.

You forgot they also have a chaos....tyranid..thing in the book.

**Gree**

SilverAlien wrote:
Can tsons even recruit new sorcerers? What happens if they put the geneseed in a non sorcerer? Instant dust?

A a post-heresy recruit called Khrove appears in one of the Black Library stories. He was a psyker cultist captured and recruited by the Thousand Sons.

The Thousand Sons probably do recruit new sorcerers from promising psykers, though I imagine the process to be rare and infrequent.

**Crimson**

So if they can recruit new sorcerers (presumably using geneseed from their existing sorcerers) what's stopping them from recruiting new non-psyker marines too?

**Arachnofiend**

Crimson wrote:
So if they can recruit new sorcerers (presumably using geneseed from their existing sorcerers) what's stopping them from recruiting new non-psyker marines too?

What's the point of having an army defined and differentiated by it's use of psykers if you're just going to give them the same organization as any other legion anyways?

**Crimson**

Arachnofiend wrote:
Crimson wrote:
So if they can recruit new sorcerers (presumably using geneseed from their existing sorcerers) what's stopping them from recruiting new non-psyker marines too?

What's the point of having an army defined and differentiated by it's use of psykers if you're just going to give them the same organization as any other legion anyways?

The had regular marines before. And apparently Ahriman has tried to undo the rubric, so he regrets it. But if he wanted non-dust, non-sorcerer TS, I can see no logical reason why he could not just recruit new ones. It gotta be way easier than undoing the rubric.

**BaconCatBug**

You could always just not take the units you don't like.

As a life long Space Wolf fan I despised the concept of TWC and I despise the Santa Sleigh and I despise the very idea that the Space Wolves would ever accept Primaris Marines even after Fenris got purged and thus causing the Space Wolves to be a dead chapter walking.

Instead of moaning about it, I just don't use those models, and say my dudes are from M39 instead of M42.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Arachnofiend wrote:
I like how people's idea of imaginative is "Rubrics, but in a different force org slot!"

I mean, I get the point you're making and I mostly agree with it. However, if you look at the Death Guard codex you kinda ask yourself why there's so many inconsistencies. I'm honestly STILL salty that Plague Marines don't have two Attacks without giving up the Bolter. This was NEVER an issue before, and there's no Veteran/Chosen equivalent either.

**Arachnofiend**

Crimson wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Crimson wrote:
So if they can recruit new sorcerers (presumably using geneseed from their existing sorcerers) what's stopping them from recruiting new non-psyker marines too?

What's the point of having an army defined and differentiated by it's use of psykers if you're just going to give them the same organization as any other legion anyways?

The had regular marines before. And apparently Ahriman has tried to undo the rubric, so he regrets it. But if he wanted non-dust, non-sorcerer TS, I can see no logical reason why he could not just recruit new ones. It gotta be way easier than undoing the rubric.

That was 30k, where every army is functionally identical. And you're completely misunderstanding the nature of Ahriman's quest if A) you think he will ever succeed and B) that just recruiting new people would ever be an acceptable replacement for the friends he lost.

**Daedalus81**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
I like how people's idea of imaginative is "Rubrics, but in a different force org slot!"

I mean, I get the point you're making and I mostly agree with it. However, if you look at the Death Guard codex you kinda ask yourself why there's so many inconsistencies. I'm honestly STILL salty that Plague Marines don't have two Attacks without giving up the Bolter. This was NEVER an issue before, and there's no Veteran/Chosen equivalent either.

This is a new edition. Very few models come with buckets of attacks as their base. There are no vets/chosen, because PG and Rubrics are already "elite" - when you've been alive for 10,000 years pretty much everyone is a veteran...hence VotLW. Now if you just wanted units with more special weapons, well, it won't hurt you to play outside the box now and then.