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Caederes wrote:
Ummm......do you lack reading comprehension skills? Because the three things I said we know for sure about the Thousand Sons codex are what you literally just wrote to me despite you also saying "we know way more than that". For goodness sake, why do I even bother!?

Again, how the hell do you know these changes you alone are stating as fact are anything more than your own baseless claims? We know NOTHING about the rule changes this codex will offer, yet here you are saying "this will be the case", "this unit will suck", etc when you have zero authority on the matter. Like any codex, the Index versions could very well be a bare imitation of the eventual "real thing".

Oh god, this logic.....history has proven the "new model, make it broken" theory has holes in it. Look at the Maleceptor. Look at the Scarab Occult. Look at Inceptors. Look at the Slaughterbrute. There are dozens of units that have been garbage upon their introduction to the game, only to either be left in a bad state or fixed later (Inceptors in particular have been redeemed from their original incarnation). It's not a great indicator of anything, as Tyranid players in particular will tell you.

The Smite changes could be nullified on the part of Rubrics with the addition of spell lores to the Aspiring Sorcerers' repertoire, it's what kept them semi-relevant in 7th Edition and in 8th Edition it could help them out big time by at least giving them something decent to cast every turn. If Thousand Sons get two spell lores as some have predicted, Ahriman, Magnus and one or two Exalted/regular Sorcerers won't be enough to cast all those powers plus the full Smites themselves, giving Aspiring and Scarab Occult Sorcerers some added utility. But hey, let's just assume the absolute worst and treat it like gospel, eh?

You want to know what's funny about your logic with GW trying to force us to buy, in your words, "more efficient models"? Said models do not fill the same roles that Rubrics/Scarab Occult/Exalteds/Magnus/Ahriman/etc fill. Rubrics are elite infantry, Tzaangors are fodder infantry. Different roles that can complement each other if both units are balanced right, which is the hope with the new codex. Enlightened are likely to be dedicated melee specialists, Skyfires are likely to be dedicated shooting, but Scarab Occult are the middle-ground that's good at both. Different roles. Tzaangor Shamans, if you look at their AOS rules, won't be as gifted as Ahriman and likely will be a lesser psyker than even a regular Sorcerer, but will be balanced by their mobility and probable Tzaangor-specific buffs, whereas Ahriman and Exalted Sorcerers are powerful psykers with buffs that are universal to Thousand Sons. Different roles. The Mutalith is a big beast but, based on what we know from AOS and can reasonably assume, it won't be a power-house like Magnus, but probably something more in line with either the Tyranid Malaceptor or Tyranid Carnifexes; Magnus is a psychic beat-stick, whereas the Mutalith will probably fit the good old "distraction Carnifex" mold. Different roles. You don't know for certain that points efficiency will dictate the necessitated usage of the Tzaangor units over the Thousand Sons units, especially as the differing roles of each individual unit gives them a special place in any given list, yet you proclaim it like fact and that's honestly pathetic.

Skyfires aren't there to "give Tzaangors more shooting", they are there to give Thousand Sons players a mobile ranged unit in their own codex that may or may not have sniper capabilities. Shamans being there to buff Tzaangor units does not exclude the codex from making changes to Exalted Sorcerers to provide a specific buff to Rubric Marines and Scarab Occult. The Mutalith Vortex Beast isn't there to "function as a screen to give Tzaangors time", it's there to give Thousand Sons an extra monster to play around with that can take fire from the rest of the army, i.e. your elite Rubrics, Magnus, etc. The amount of wilful ignorance you are spouting on this forum is beyond the realm of absurd

Again, how do you know that they won't make net positive adjustments to Rubric Marines? I am beyond sick of this attitude, so I'm going to spell it out for you so you can understand;
You. Do. Not. Know. For. A. Fact. That. The. Changes. You. Think. Will. Happen. Will. Actually. Happen. As. You. Have. No. Proof. To. Back. Up. Any. Of. Your. Claims.

Cheers

Are you saying that GW isn't a business trying to make money?

If GW was in the business of intentionally overtuning stuff in order to sell kits (they used to do that, this has been confirmed, but this is one of many things that the change in leadership got rid of) then Primaris would have been absolutely broken on release. Primaris were hot garbage on release, and are only "viable" after receiving a number of much needed points changes.

The new Tzaangor units might end up being broken but to be so utterly convinced that they will be before we even have a hint of what they're doing (other than what they do in AoS, and you've already completely convinced yourself that Shamans won't do what they do in that game so...) is quite frankly stupid and a little unhealthy.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Are you saying that GW isn't a business trying to make money?

Of course they are. What on earth gave you the idea that I would say otherwise?

For goodness' sake, apply logic to the situation. New units do not automatically invalidate old units, otherwise Chaos Space Marine players would have flooded the boards with Mutilators, Forgefiends, etc back in 6th Edition. They didn't. They sure as heck flooded the board with Heldrakes though....which is proof that the "new unit is always better than old unit" theory is inconsistent at best. Next example; Tyranids. Toxicrenes, Malaceptors, Exocrines, Haruspexes, etc were all mediocre upon their release and got better with time, ergo, assuming the same will be true of Tzaangors makes no damned sense. There's no reason to believe, as you do, that they are going to invalidate the competitive usage of Rubric Marines and other Thousand Sons legionary units in favour of Tzaangors. Literally none so stop acting like it's a certainty, steady yourself and look at this rationally. We have zero rules-related information on the new codex other than what I've already stated, which is that both new and existing units will be in it, and all the hallmarks of an 8th Edition codex (Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Artefacts, etc) will be in it. Until we know more, assuming the worst is a pointless endeavour and, like this thread, a silly waste of everyone's time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If GW was in the business of intentionally overtuning stuff in order to sell kits (they used to do that, this has been confirmed, but this is one of many things that the change in leadership got rid of) then Primaris would have been absolutely broken on release. Primaris were hot garbage on release, and are only "viable" after receiving a number of much needed points changes.

The new Tzaangor units might end up being broken but to be so utterly convinced that they will be before we even have a hint of what they're doing (other than what they do in AoS, and you've already completely convinced yourself that Shamans won't do what they do in that game so...) is quite frankly stupid and a little unhealthy.

Exalted, preach my good sir

Ahriman21 wrote:
I do think that alot of people here are not quite on the same page in regards to the Thousand Sons.

Seems like half are excited and think it will be cool and the other half have already thrown out the army as trash tier before getting a single codex leak.

Also as for one more thing:

Torga_Dw, I dont know about these mythical "competitive Primaris" lists you are talking about. I have never had any trouble with my Thousand Sons with the INDEX against a codex army of Primaris space marines. They are truly unimpressive.

Unless your taking Guilliman which is a totally different dynamic due to his ability to hide.

If the Rubrics get a discount (which I can see happening logically asserting points drop as per all other books) we can assume a rubric being 17-19 after bolter in our book. I would imagine 18 to be exact even with a Intercessor.

That + Strategems + Legion Tactic + Warlord trait + any spell buffs we will get + Aura effects.....we will be fine. Rubrics should be fairly dangerous with all of these benefits stacking. I would imagine as far as "marines" in 8th edition go (which are to be fair mediocre in most circumstances mathematically) they will be the top of that pile, or near to it.

These threads come up alot in altered forms everytime a codex is released (that updates an army). You will get the "This army is dead because X". I find most of the time it boils down to the real statement being " I want to play in competition and I cant do that unless I buy new models". Which in and of itself is a half true statement as GW certainly practices planned obsolescence in regards to its sales tactics of models. But my answer to these statements is that this is nothing new and GW has been doing this for years. You should know this information if you are really a competitive player.

Now another hidden symptom that causes these threads is that people dont want to have to change their army. This is even more profound in the case of 1ksons because the only offical list we got was in the tail end of 7th and it rewarded you big time for spamming rubrics and sorcs. SO alot of people built their army around that. Now that our 8th edition codex is on the horizon it is likely that it will change the focus of the army. Be it financial or personal reasons, some players just loathe the idea of changing their armies.

You would be suprised the kinda far out stuff people will come up with to obfuscate the above statements.

Caederes wrote:
Of course they are. What on earth gave you the idea that I would say otherwise?

Do you think GW would leave the testing of an extremely game changing rule to a group of undetermined unknowns who may or may not bring an Army which feels the affect of the new rule?

Thousand Sons Sorceror and Formosa, I'll reply when I have the time on my hands

Torga_DW wrote:And that there is the big thing. No models, no rules. Pay up! Welcome to gw. I hear stockholm syndrome thrown around a lot in this hhhoby, but i'll tell you what. There are times when it seems pretty much believable.

If you want to blame anyone for the no model = no rules situation, blame Chapterhouse. They pushed the limit too far, and prompted GW into defending their IP.

GW probably should have tried to make models for all their units, but given the cost of making plastic kits, it's understandable why they didn't.

Blame Chapterhouse, not GW.

Torga_DW wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Guys, I understand. You wanted more TS options and more TS models.

It's a TS codex. Is the disappointment really that hard to understand?

And since 5th, you've over doubled how many Rubricae options you have, with new plastic kits.
Odds are Tzaangors will be classed as TS. So, what makes them not TS? That they're not Rubricae?

Good thing you can take a list without needing Tzaangors in it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Thousand Sons Sorceror and Formosa, I'll reply when I have the time on my hands

Torga_DW wrote:And that there is the big thing. No models, no rules. Pay up! Welcome to gw. I hear stockholm syndrome thrown around a lot in this hhhoby, but i'll tell you what. There are times when it seems pretty much believable.

If you want to blame anyone for the no model = no rules situation, blame Chapterhouse. They pushed the limit too far, and prompted GW into defending their IP.

GW probably should have tried to make models for all their units, but given the cost of making plastic kits, it's understandable why they didn't.

Blame Chapterhouse, not GW.

Torga_DW wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Guys, I understand. You wanted more TS options and more TS models.

It's a TS codex. Is the disappointment really that hard to understand?

And since 5th, you've over doubled how many Rubricae options you have, with new plastic kits.
Odds are Tzaangors will be classed as TS. So, what makes them not TS? That they're not Rubricae?

Good thing you can take a list without needing Tzaangors in it.

Sorry but no, I blame GW for both the policy and sueing another company for ip infringement, a company that was not infringing there ip because they in fact did not own a lot of the ip they claimed to, it was a direct result of GWS bullying tactics, and I hold them responsible.

Simple tzaangors are as much thousand sons as cadians are ultramarines, it's a force alongside a faction fighting to aid it, not a part of the same faction, you can add the thousand sons keyword but they are not thousand sons.

I actually agree that Rubrics logically could have more squad types with different weapons. And trust me, I too hate the 'no model, no rules' policy with burning passion. But this is not a TS specific issue, it is general GW issue.

I really wish FW would step up, and provide conversion kits to go with some GW's plastic infantry kits (not only TS, but for them too) and then provide rules for them. But traditionally they've been super lazy at providing 40K rules for stuff that is not vehicles.

 Crimson wrote:
I actually agree that Rubrics logically could have more squad types with different weapons. And trust me, I too hat the 'no model, no rules' policy with burning passion. But this is not a TS specific issue, it is general GW issue.

I really wish FW would step up, and provide conversion kits to go with some GW's plastic infantry kits (not only TS, but for them too) and then provide rules for them. But traditionally they've been super lazy at providing 40K rules for stuff that is not vehicles.

You mean Space Marines.

I've got plenty of Admech vehicles collecting dust that would LOVE 40k rules.

I just want to put powerfists on my DG terminators, so I can use my lovely FW grave wardens without having to pretend the fists are axes.

I guess all that time being ill made them forget how to punch, or something...

Thousand Sons are dead... long live the Thousand sons

the_scotsman wrote:

You mean Space Marines.

I've got plenty of Admech vehicles collecting dust that would LOVE 40k rules.

Yeah... I have a unbuilt box of Thallax that have been waiting for 40K rules for years. It just feels to me that FW doesn't want to sell their models.

 Crimson wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

You mean Space Marines.

I've got plenty of Admech vehicles collecting dust that would LOVE 40k rules.

Yeah... I have a unbuilt box of Thallax that have been waiting for 40K rules for years. It just feels to me that FW doesn't want to sell their models.

They are just the ultimate in the self-fulfilling prophecy that is the old GW attitude:

"We find that the people who buy our models aren't interested in the rules, or the quality of the rules. Which is exactly why we treat the rules as an afterthought, when we bother to provide them, and frequently when we do they prevent the models from being used in the game at all. We are certain that there is no causal link between the second statement and the first, at all. Can we interest you in any of our several hundred variant dreadnought kits?"

 Crimson wrote:
I actually agree that Rubrics logically could have more squad types with different weapons. And trust me, I too hat the 'no model, no rules' policy with burning passion. But this is not a TS specific issue, it is general GW issue.

I really wish FW would step up, and provide conversion kits to go with some GW's plastic infantry kits (not only TS, but for them too) and then provide rules for them. But traditionally they've been super lazy at providing 40K rules for stuff that is not vehicles.

This is pretty much how I see it too.

I like the tzaangors, I like that they are added to the codex, it is fluffy, I don't like that rubrics are only in one slot when they could easily fill 3 or more with little to no effort on gws behalf.

What I don't want is a straight port of the legions list to 40k, but I do want parts of it to show through in chaos marines, while it may not be the most points efficient I would like to see tac squads all being Bolters and no heavies or specials (which we can already do if we choose to), special weapon squads which space marines now have (hellblasters) and all heavy havocs, cataphractii termies and tartorus termites in elite (dark angels and chaos are he only ones who should have had it straight away), it's all over the place at the moment

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Okay here is my challange to you I want you to build a CSM army without any CSM in it none at all. A battle forged army that could win some games. Once your done with that just pick another army at random and build that without using any thing in the Title. So an ork Army with no Orks, Daemon Army with no Daemons, Tau Army with no Tau (this is the closest you will get, and by the way there are 4 Kroot units and 3 TS units. So an Auxiliary has more units then an army).

Okay.

Cultist horde and Daemon Engines, lead by a Daemon Prince.
Grot revolution list (something I find really cool!) - Gretchin, Ork Artillery, Grot Tanks.
Daemon army with no Daemons is impossible, given that Daemons make up 100% of the list. There's no other choice. Not the same as this, considering that there's enough Rubricae in the TS codex to make a Battalion.
Tau army with no Tau - Kroot and Vespid, including Knarlocs, Hounds and Riders.

You were saying?

TS have HQ and Troops. The most BASIC detachment in the game can be fulfilled by this.

Winning all depends on what you're playing against. A mirror match? A friendly pickup game? A tournament tier list? Even IF Rubricae was the only thing in the TS army, and consisted of a good range of units, they could still lose against a friendly pickup game if the 'dex was underpowered anyway.
Realistically, the entire SM codex could be reduced to Guilliman, Stormravens and Razorbacks, and it would be more competitive than most lists.

So - what was your point?

Chaos Space Marines (Possible)
Chaos Daemons (Not Possible)
Dark Eldar (Not Possible)
Craftworld Eldar(Not Possible)
Eldar Harlequins(Not Possible)
Necrons (Not Possible)
Orks (Almost Possible HQ has to be Ork)
Tau Empire ( almost Possible HQ has to be Tau)
Tyranids (Not Possible)
Genestealer Cults (Not Possible)
Space Marines (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Ultramarines and Space Wolves each have their own chapter Codex.)(Not Possible)
Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard) (Not Possible)
Militarum Tempestus (Stormtroopers) (Possible)
Inquisition (Not Possible)
Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle) (Not Possible)
Imperial Knights (Not Possible)
Skitarii (Troops of Adeptus Mechanicus) (Not Possible)
Cult Mechanicus (Priesthood of Adeptus Mechanicus) (Not Possible)

Being intentionally obtuse doesn't make you smart. You also managed to randomly pick the only other 2 out of 20 factions that can come close, but aren't actually able to accomplish it. What are the odds?

Sorry, I was just working with the factions you gave me at the start. Still - I did what you said. Most of the other factions listed don't even have a "type" split in the list which can be exploited (ie. Knights or Inquisition). So, if you'd like, I could do one with pretty much any list which does have a split. And again, if we're supporting my "winning doesn't matter" claim, then I could build anything with just 1 unit, just spamming the auxiliary detachment over and over again. I'd probably get no CP, but you can still win without them.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

To the people who keep saying "oh you just want Spiky Marines" please stop its not an argument, and you sound childish. SM have literally everything. You guys have so much crap they ran out of gak to give to you and what did they do focus on other factions? Nope Adeptus Restartes. Whole line of them. Asking for a heavy weapons squad isnt exactly out of this world. Damn near every army has a heavy weapons squad, why cant we have one? The models exist. It would allow you to not have to buy 2 boxes of Rubrics to get 2 Soul Reaper Cannons.

Custodes are just as much Space Marine as Sisters are - just the opposite side of the spectrum. If SoB got a release, would you call them SM? No - so why do Custodes matter here?

I was talking about NuMarines you know the entirely new line of space marines which didn't exist at all anywhere even in lore up until a year ago?

My mistake, I though you were referring to Custodes.

Although, to be fair, the Primaris are going to be GW's main focus for Space Marines now, loyalist or not.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Want a list of armies without heavy weapons squads? Nurgle, for one. Tempestus Militarum. Custodes, presumably. Assassins. Inquisition. Sisters of Silence. Harlequins. Genestealer Cults.
All of the above are "sub-factions" - few units, very specialised. I think TS fits in that category too, given how GW is treating them.

Lets see which of these factions screams needs a heavy weapons squad. Assassins hmm m seems subtlety is more their thing. Custodes are a melee focused army and rely more on speed then firepower, Genestealer Cults do have heavy weapons they are just embedded into the squads and come in melee form (go figure with an army that can pop up anywhere on the map), Harlequins are again a fast melee focused unit that rely on being in the enemies face, they also have melta pistols. Inquisition seems like they are a Psyker Melee army, but sure they could have a heavy weapons squad don't see why not, Nurgle again a melee monster, Sisters they have some pretty cool unique stuff with Rhinos, but yeah they could probably use a heavy weapons squad (and probably more), not to familiar with them though.

And Thousand Sons are a psyker army. Why should they need heavy weapons then? This argument fails when, like you, you want your guys to have some potential in heavy firepower. I mean, if not, why would you want it?

Plus, like genestealer cults, Thousand Sons "do have heavy weapons they are just embedded into the squads". Sorted.

Also, sorry, Sisters have unique stuff with Rhinos? The Sisters of Silence have three units, plus one single generic Rhino. It's heaviest weapon is a hunter killer missile upgrade.

So, your statement about "damn near every army has heavy weapons squads" - not quite true. The biggest armies do, yes - but they're all the big armies. The smaller ones, which TS slot into, lack them.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
[spoiler]Also, if you're complaining about the Soulreapers being limited, how about Deathwatch? 1 Infernus Heavy Bolter and 1 Frag Cannon per box too - does that Deathwatch to "no heavy weapon teams" as well?
Thousand Sons aren't being treated like the main Space Marine codex, because GW sees them more like the other "splinter" faction armies.

Again, being intentionally obtuse doesn't make you smart.

Excuse me, could you elaborate on this? Where am I obtuse?

I'm just pointing out that Deathwatch have a similar heavy weapons kit situation.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you want to oppose the TS being treated as a splinter army instead, that's fine, but I would hope you also supported the other splinter armies being upgraded too.

You act like I'm asking for 10 new kits all I was thinking personally was 1 new kit which they already have the rules and the models for just mash it together and make it a unit, and maybe a cheap HQ with an Aura. I don't even think we should have a fast attack.

Given the outrage people seem to having in this thread, I doubt that one single unit would make that all better.

I could be wrong.

Plus, won't there be a cheap Tzaangor HQ for that aura effect?

Formosa wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.

If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.

The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.

Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.

Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.

If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?

I can answer those questions.

Firstly the other legions DO have these weapons, so dont know where your coming from on that, autocannon havocs, plasma guns etc. its all there bar a few heresy specific weapons like volkites.

I more meant things like jetbikes, speeders, quad mortars, cataphractii and tartaros armour, conversion beamers, Apothecaries.

Why cant space marines band together to have "special weapon squads", simple, the codex, it defined how marines can fight, secondly, they can, they are called hellblasters, Chaos does not follow the codex, except for some reason they do???? that has been a bug bear of mine for a while, 4 heavies to a havoc squad, 1 heavy and 1 special in a tac squad, thats codex space marines and fits that fluff, this is not how the legions fought, so that needs explaining.

Helblasters represent a newly formed development in the Codex from Guilliman himself. They're new, and not to mention, Primaris only.

Maybe the Legions can only do 1 special and heavy because of a lack of resources? Maybe they think it's more tactically flexible.
The same reasoning which stops my Space Marine Captain picking up a lascannon, the same reasoning that stops Imperial Guard sergeants holding lasguns, the same logic that stops a Deathwatch Marine from how to use a grav-weapon. Because GW says so, and it's a consistent theme for Troops units to have 1 special and/or heavy (even though I could easily equip them all with the special weapon).

As to why have people only being saying this recently, thats not true at all, its something we have been saying since 3rd, Thousand sons should have access to the same units as Chaos marines but some of these should be represented by Rubricai.

The problem is that if you could just do "Rubric X", then why would you realistically take the normal one? Unless the Rubric variant had significant negative effects or a large points mark-up, people would just take "Rubric X" instead of "X". And that's ignoring GW consciously wanting to specialise what the Rubricae represent.

It boils down to wanting more Thousand sons representation in the Thousand sons codex, I have no issue with the addition of Tzaangors, but Thousand sons need more representation too, something that is very easy to implement and fits the fluff, this "no model no rules" crap is the real issue here.

Why aren't Tzaangors Thousand Sons? I mean, they're in their codex, probably will have the <Thousand Sons> keyword - what gives?

Did you mean "Rubricae" need more representation? GW seem to be implying that there are little Rubricae left, being sorted into Scarab Occult and Rubric Marines squads. If, in their setting, they want to push the idea that the Thousand Sons lack more specialised units, that's their design choice.

Tzaangors are not Thousand sons, they are in the codex, that is it, I even bet they will lack the "thousand sons" keyword.

We shall see. Would you wish to bet?

Also, still waiting on an answer about that Rough Rider situation.

Formosa wrote:Sorry but no, I blame GW for both the policy and sueing another company for ip infringement, a company that was not infringing there ip because they in fact did not own a lot of the ip they claimed to, it was a direct result of GWS bullying tactics, and I hold them responsible.

You're welcome to choose to blame who you want, but considering other companies had done the Chapterhouse trick before and GW hadn't gone after them, it is on Chapterhouse for them "poking the bear" too hard.

GW took action to defend their IP - the courts ruled what was and wasn't their IP, and GW then removed whatever they could that wasn't legally defendable. GW didn't bully anyone - they defended what they owned. If they didn't own it, then they changed the name so they could. That's called business.

You can say what you like, but the catalyst for it is on Chapterhouse, like it or not.

Simple tzaangors are as much thousand sons as cadians are ultramarines, it's a force alongside a faction fighting to aid it, not a part of the same faction, you can add the thousand sons keyword but they are not thousand sons.

That's a lie and you know it.

Shall we compare?

Ultramarines share the <Imperium> keyword with the Cadians, and aren't even in the same book. That's it. Fluff wise, they share even less - Cadians "were" located in majority around the Cadian gate, now largely scattered. The Ultramarines are focussed as far away from the Cadian Gate as it s possible to be. So no, not similar really.

Tzaangors will most likely share the <Chaos> and <Tzeentch> keywords, and probably even the <Thousand Sons> keyword, as well as being in the same codex. So, vastly more similar.

You'd be better off comparing the Tzaangors being as much Thousand Sons as Space Marine Scouts or Servitors to normal Tactical Marines - aka, very similar.

Unless you can prove to me that they do lack the <Thousand Sons> keyword, I don't think I agree with your opinion.

 Formosa wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I actually agree that Rubrics logically could have more squad types with different weapons. And trust me, I too hat the 'no model, no rules' policy with burning passion. But this is not a TS specific issue, it is general GW issue.

I really wish FW would step up, and provide conversion kits to go with some GW's plastic infantry kits (not only TS, but for them too) and then provide rules for them. But traditionally they've been super lazy at providing 40K rules for stuff that is not vehicles.

This is pretty much how I see it too.

I like the tzaangors, I like that they are added to the codex, it is fluffy, I don't like that rubrics are only in one slot when they could easily fill 3 or more with little to no effort on gws behalf.

What I don't want is a straight port of the legions list to 40k, but I do want parts of it to show through in chaos marines, while it may not be the most points efficient I would like to see tac squads all being Bolters and no heavies or specials (which we can already do if we choose to), special weapon squads which space marines now have (hellblasters) and all heavy havocs, cataphractii termies and tartorus termites in elite (dark angels and chaos are he only ones who should have had it straight away), it's all over the place at the moment

Try thinking of it this way. The faction is not called Rubric Marines, Rubric marines are one part of a whole of what the faction IS called, and that is Thousand Suns. I pulled out my copy of Wrath of Magnus a hour or two ago to re-read it and one entire page is dedicated to the makeup of the faction. Rubrics are indeed just one facet of the whole. I think the problem is that people bought into the rubric porn GW has pushed in the past. The models did not exist to represent the other components outside of preds, rhinos and land raiders. And this bears repeating. Whom is driving those vehicles? Is it rubric marines? No.

As for chapter house and NMNR. It is just something we are going to have to deal with. It is not going away. And I feel that good portion of the blame should fall on chapter houses shoulders.

Psyker heavy army, but why would you need heavy weapons?

Probably because as a Psyker heavy army we still don't have many psykers in any given army unless you spam the hell out of them. And with Smite nerf, you're not going to be doing much damage anyway

Maybe the Legions can only do 1 special and heavy because of a lack of resources?

Then they are dead/dying and should be put to rest. There's no way they could hold their own in this universe of war. They have their bolters, and you dont NEED them for anything that the other chaos models couldn't do better.

The problem is that if you could just do "Rubric X", then why would you realistically take the normal one? Unless the Rubric variant had significant negative effects or a large points mark-up, people would just take "Rubric X" instead of "X". And that's ignoring GW consciously wanting to specialise what the Rubricae represent.

Why take tac marines when you can take devastators?

Did you mean "Rubricae" need more representation? GW seem to be implying that there are little Rubricae left, being sorted into Scarab Occult and Rubric Marines squads. If, in their setting, they want to push the idea that the Thousand Sons lack more specialised units, that's their design choice.

They say about 700 legionnaires. Each chapter of space marines only have 1,000. Not that much different. And that's not including Ahriman's band of merry robots.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Tzaangors are not Thousand sons, they are in the codex, that is it, I even bet they will lack the "thousand sons" keyword.

We shall see. Would you wish to bet?

You already won the bet.

Yep, Tzaangors are already in the index under the Thousand Sons section with the Thousand Sons keyword.

nintura wrote:

Psyker heavy army, but why would you need heavy weapons?

Probably because as a Psyker heavy army we still don't have many psykers in any given army unless you spam the hell out of them. And with Smite nerf, you're not going to be doing much damage anyway

Then the psyker situation should probably be amended. A different situation, to be sure, but still no actual need to heavy weapons - besides, the responses to why certain armies didn't have heavy weapons was under similar situations.

Maybe the Legions can only do 1 special and heavy because of a lack of resources?

Then they are dead/dying and should be put to rest. There's no way they could hold their own in this universe of war. They have their bolters, and you dont NEED them for anything that the other chaos models couldn't do better.

In which case what about normal Space Marines? Should they be put to rest, if they can only do the same?

GW insists that units should have a single special or heavy, unless you happen to be a more "elite" unit (Veterans, Tempestus, Sternguard).

The problem is that if you could just do "Rubric X", then why would you realistically take the normal one? Unless the Rubric variant had significant negative effects or a large points mark-up, people would just take "Rubric X" instead of "X". And that's ignoring GW consciously wanting to specialise what the Rubricae represent.

Why take tac marines when you can take devastators?

Exactly - if unit role didn't matter, there'd be little reason to ever take Tacticals.

Tacs are good for two things - filling out Troops choices and providing extra wounds for a single heavy or special weapon, which Devastators can still do.
If people could take Devastators as Troops, I can wholeheartedly say they probably would.

Did you mean "Rubricae" need more representation? GW seem to be implying that there are little Rubricae left, being sorted into Scarab Occult and Rubric Marines squads. If, in their setting, they want to push the idea that the Thousand Sons lack more specialised units, that's their design choice.

They say about 700 legionnaires. Each chapter of space marines only have 1,000. Not that much different. And that's not including Ahriman's band of merry robots.

Is that 700 Legionnaries under Magnus' direct influence? Or 700 across the whole galaxy?
Regardless, GW can easily claim that those 700 are all Rubric Marines or Scarab Occult. Not that hard.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Tzaangors are not Thousand sons, they are in the codex, that is it, I even bet they will lack the "thousand sons" keyword.

We shall see. Would you wish to bet?

You already won the bet.

Huh. So, I guess that makes Tzaangors Thousand Sons by rule of writ.

None of the points you made made any sense... or they completely missed the point being made.

If thousand sons have lost all their heavy weapons, and they are such low numbers, then they should be put to rest. Regular marines have large numbers of special squads (vanguard vets, assault marines, tac marines, devastators, etc etc) while Thousand Sons only have plain rubrics. So they have low numbers, low resources, low choices. Kill them off, they can't survive.

Accordingly that's 700 total. Including Ahrimans cadre. So kill them off.




No, what I'd like to see is a low point cost but limit how many you're allowed to take. And give more options. Like for example, and not nearly thought about enough to balance, but say 14 points per including guns, but limiting it to two squads max to represent their important but limited in numbers. Expand the options out some. Put Rubrics in other slots, but make them limited like above. Maybe one squad of "devastators" to show how hard they are to find. But allow a Thousand Sons player to have a Rubric army with at least some decent numbers, then if they want a larger army, flesh it out with Gors.

 nintura wrote:

If thousand sons have lost all their heavy weapons, and they are such low numbers, then they should be put to rest. Regular marines have large numbers of special squads (vanguard vets, assault marines, tac marines, devastators, etc etc) while Thousand Sons only have plain rubrics. So they have low numbers, low resources, low choices. Kill them off, they can't survive.

They can survive, if they employ servants such as Tzaangors!

Some of this feels like pure unadulterated arguing for the sake of it. Its like getting mad that Poxwalkers, Blight Haulers, and Blight Drones are in the Death Guard codex even though they are not Death Guard Marines.

It really does seem like some would have a better time simply using the Chaos Space Marines codex and painting up their force as a "Thousand Sons", gaining access to models like Havoks and Raptors, and make up a fluffy backstory reason as to why your particular Thousand Sons force works like that.

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:

If thousand sons have lost all their heavy weapons, and they are such low numbers, then they should be put to rest. Regular marines have large numbers of special squads (vanguard vets, assault marines, tac marines, devastators, etc etc) while Thousand Sons only have plain rubrics. So they have low numbers, low resources, low choices. Kill them off, they can't survive.

They can survive, if they employ servants such as Tzaangors!

Once again. I have nothing against taking Tzaangors. I have something against have more Tzaangor units in my codex than Thousand Sons marines.

Cyclical argument is cyclical.

Because those arguing against it do not seem to understand.

 nintura wrote:
Because those arguing against it do not seem to understand.

You argue that as written TS have too low numbers and too little variety to survive. Both of these things are actually supported by the fluff, and it is this exact reason why they have servants and probably rely on them much more than many other CSM armies.

So it seems to me that the rules reflect their fluff just fine.

No. See? That's why we are going in circle. We are upset because we now have 4 Gor units and only 2 Rubric units in a codex for Thousand Sons.

 nintura wrote:
No. See? That's why we are going in circle. We are upset because we now have 4 Gor units and only 2 Rubric units in a codex for Thousand Sons.

Which fits the fluff. Problem?

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:
No. See? That's why we are going in circle. We are upset because we now have 4 Gor units and only 2 Rubric units in a codex for Thousand Sons.

Which fits the fluff. Problem?

No it doesnt... Yes, they CAN use Gor's. They shouldnt be MOSTLY gors.