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EnTyme wrote: Wait, wasn't the goalpost over here a second ago?
Explain where the goalpost has shifted, I have been very consistent throughout.
Well, my headcanon (equally valid as yours) is that the vindicators, assault marines, tactical marines, dreadnoughts, predators and all other units not specifically unique to blood angels are "generic units" and not blood angels at all.
Dammit, if I wanted to play generic space marines I would have bought codex: Space marines! Why are blood angels limited only to death company, sanguinary guard, furioso dreads, librarian dreads, death company dreads and a few named characters who don't count because, hello, not EVERYONE wants to structure their blood angels army around one specific named dude! Who are these rhino drivers and land raider drivers and assault marines who don't even have "blood angels" in their name and what are they doing in the army? I'd like the fluff to explain that!
lets see, what do you get when you google "thousand sons rhino"?
Oh look at that, it's a rubric in the gunner's seat there, I wonder how they managed that highly complex conversion.
Wow what nonsense are you talking?
Blood angels didnt turn there entire legion into rubrics, context matters here, so if you are going down the hyperbole route at least pick a good one
So yes its a valid question to ask where are all the drivers coming from, its also equally as valid to point out that all the vehicles etc. are not unique to Tsons and not considered when talking about Tsons units, now back in the day when these vehicles could take legion specific upgrades, yeah I would look at them and say "thats an emperors children Rhino, it has sonic blasters instead of bolters and that siren upgrade thingy", these days a Word bearers Rhino is no different than a world eaters one, the only difference with Tsons is that all the crews would have been turned into Rubrics, so I wonder who drives the vehicles and would like a little blurb to explain it, now IF the Osiron dread turns up and is a psyker dread, or they gave the contemptor all is dust, I would look at it differently.
As for moving goal posts, its not moving goal posts to wonder about something completely different from the conversion I was having, who pilots the vehicles doesnt really impact on the "I would like more types of Rubrics" conversation.
It isn't "hyperbole" if I apply the exact same logic you've applied to Thousand Sons to other armies and see what happens.
Unique units that are not space marines, don't count - gotcha
Named characters don't count because not everyone wants to use them - gotcha
Units that other subfactions have don't count - gotcha
In this instance, how many "real" unique units constitute other existing subfactions which have been around for many editions?
Blood Angels: 3 unique dreadnoughts, 1 unique tank, 1 unique HQ in the Sanguinary Priest, 2 unique infantry units. 7 total for an army that's been unique since what, second ed? third?
Space Wolves: 2 unique dreads, 2 unique planes, 2 unique infantry units. Everything else is just a rename of existing space marine units, that hardly counts. Wait, wtf is this? FOUR units of different flavors of wolfy wolf? they're nearly outnumbering the REAL space wolves units, this is an outrage!!
Deathwatch: 3 unique units. GW, you make me sick.
Grey Knights are the only subfaction that's not completely overrun with disgusting GENERIC marine units and unacceptable non-power armored units. Grey knights players must be so pleased right now, their faction is the only one that even approaches OK.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: You do agree the army you used to see on the table is dead. You wont see it any more. You wont see a bunch of rubrics on the table supported by a bunch of sorcerers. Now it will be 1 Rubric squad or 1 SOT squad supporting Tzaangors and Daemons,
The army you used to see on the table? Do you mean that one unit of Rubricae that somehow made up an entire army?
I mean, if you want to go back to the "good old days" of using just that one unit, nothing is stopping you. Also, why won't you see Rubrics on the table with sorcerors? Nothing says you HAVE to take X units of Tzaangors.
How hard is it to understand that, just because there are Gors in the codex, you don't need to use them. You can take a list of just Rubricae, no sweat. You've lost nothing. You've only gained units.
How long did it take to get those kits? Just because it recently happened doesnt mean GW gives a gak. I beleive SM got 5 new SM kits in the time it took them to get 1 new kit if you include Primaris Marines.
If you're including Primaris, then you should probably understand that Primaris are an entirely new range in their own right. They're not just "new SM units" - it's a functional rebranding of the face of Space Marines.
Okay let me put this one to rest. You will NOT see a points drop, unless RM get seriously hamstringed in some way(like implamenting a cumalitive -1 to smite per cast). PM got a points drop with CA NOT thier codex. Why wouldn't you drop the points then? There is no reason to not drop the points, espically since they are underpowered compared to what the will be with the codex. Getting a points drop now makes no logical sense what so ever. CA came out a month ago we will probably have the TS codex in hand in a month. If there was a points reduction to do it would have happened, with CA not with the codex.
How much are you willing to bet on that?
Also, who even says the Tzaangor will be priced competitively? After all, if they're over-priced and the Rubricae are nominally priced, you'll see Rubricae more than Tzaangors - and isn't that what you're clamouring for?
this is assuming the Tzanagors are priced more compeitivly. if the Gors are massivly over priced and rubrics are a steal. you'll never see anything but rubric marines.
This is rather unlikely as rubrics were priced to codex with original smite rules so now pay for unlimited smite which now is not true anymore. Well unless GW scraps the beta smite rule completely.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: You do agree the army you used to see on the table is dead. You wont see it any more. You wont see a bunch of rubrics on the table supported by a bunch of sorcerers. Now it will be 1 Rubric squad or 1 SOT squad supporting Tzaangors and Daemons,
How long did it take to get those kits? Just because it recently happened doesnt mean GW gives a gak. I beleive SM got 5 new SM kits in the time it took them to get 1 new kit if you include Primaris Marines.
I am not assuning what we are getting they announced what we are getting and I know we don't need more footslogging infantry. We need fast attack. Enlightened and Skyfires both have Discs in thier boxes its a logical conclusion, not an assumption.
Okay let me put this one to rest. You will NOT see a points drop, unless RM get seriously hamstringed in some way(like implamenting a cumalitive -1 to smite per cast). PM got a points drop with CA NOT thier codex. Why wouldn't you drop the points then? There is no reason to not drop the points, espically since they are underpowered compared to what the will be with the codex. Getting a points drop now makes no logical sense what so ever. CA came out a month ago we will probably have the TS codex in hand in a month. If there was a points reduction to do it would have happened, with CA not with the codex.
No, I don't agree that an all marine force is a thing of the past. There are people out there who will want to field an all marine Thousand Sons force, very possibly some of the same people who've been doing that for the last decade or more. Others will welcome the chance to field the various mutant rabble while others still will simply put whatever they want on the table 'cause they like the models. Unless there's a wild paradigm shift by GW, the Sons won't be meta-competative, so you will likely not see anything but Magnus in seriously competative lists while anyone who actually cares about the army will continue to run them in semi-competative and casual games, exactly the same as they have since they were introduced as they've never been "good" in the meta sense. You (the general sense, not you specifically) weren't competative if you were bringing pure Sons for the last decade or more (though full cabal rattled a few cages in late 7th), why are you freaking out about it now?
If you're really correct (and given that we've had absolutely no leaks regarding points or abilities [to my knowledge], I don't know how you're coming to that conclusion), then why would you take any marines at all if the new stuff is so superior to the existing stuff?
Put it to rest? Unless you've got some secret inside info that you're not sharing, you're stabbing blindly in the dark just like everyone else. GW has an erratic enough track record that it's nigh impossible to predict what they'll do. Eldar wildly stronger than anyone else? Give them massive buffs! Bottom tier dexes suffering for ages? Release half a dozen new armies! Imperial Knight get their first dex ever? Release another one 11 months later! Didn't release FAQ's at all for 6th? Release them on a regular basis and suddenly re-engage with the community! Reinvogorate WHFB with the End Times? Destroy the entire old world!
That's not to say that rubricae won't be bad in the new dex, they've been bad for a very, very long time and I still struggle to believe that GW remembered they existed and released their entire range with new sculpts (really nice ones too!), but someone over there writing the rules has a hate boner for the Sons when it comes to rules, but who knows with GW. Until we start seeing proper leaks and not just wishlisting and wild speculation, you're getting agitated over nothing. Once we get something solid, if it sucks, then yes, by all means, get your torch and pitchfork out, but until then, please chill the hell out. Even if they are bad, you're currently sporting an all marine force - do you honestly think that GW is going to look at the underperforming state of the Sons and actively make them worse? If not, then how will the new dex make your army worse than it already is, even without considering that you'll get various stratagems, warlord traits and, very likely given other marine dexes have gotten faction specific spells, a new lore as well?
Do you have a single shred of evidence re: points, abilities or stratagems from the new dex? If yes, please share. If no, well, what are you basing your claims on? If no, don't you think it's a little bit crazy to go on an extended rant about how your army is dead when you literally have no evidence one way or the other than they have made any changes at all for the worse compared to the all-rubricae-all-the-time army you must currently be running?
Peregrine wrote: What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
I think it's still odd that someone says "It's not Tsons if it's not all Rubrics!" When this is how Tsons actually fight.. It's Thousand Sons, they lead the Gors, it's their armies from the Planet of Sorcerers and not some random planets Tzeentch armies.
Just because it's not all walking rubric doesn't mean it's still not armies used by the THOUSAND SONS.
EnTyme wrote: Wait, wasn't the goalpost over here a second ago?
Explain where the goalpost has shifted, I have been very consistent throughout.
Well, my headcanon (equally valid as yours) is that the vindicators, assault marines, tactical marines, dreadnoughts, predators and all other units not specifically unique to blood angels are "generic units" and not blood angels at all.
Dammit, if I wanted to play generic space marines I would have bought codex: Space marines! Why are blood angels limited only to death company, sanguinary guard, furioso dreads, librarian dreads, death company dreads and a few named characters who don't count because, hello, not EVERYONE wants to structure their blood angels army around one specific named dude! Who are these rhino drivers and land raider drivers and assault marines who don't even have "blood angels" in their name and what are they doing in the army? I'd like the fluff to explain that!
lets see, what do you get when you google "thousand sons rhino"?
Oh look at that, it's a rubric in the gunner's seat there, I wonder how they managed that highly complex conversion.
Wow what nonsense are you talking?
Blood angels didnt turn there entire legion into rubrics, context matters here, so if you are going down the hyperbole route at least pick a good one
So yes its a valid question to ask where are all the drivers coming from, its also equally as valid to point out that all the vehicles etc. are not unique to Tsons and not considered when talking about Tsons units, now back in the day when these vehicles could take legion specific upgrades, yeah I would look at them and say "thats an emperors children Rhino, it has sonic blasters instead of bolters and that siren upgrade thingy", these days a Word bearers Rhino is no different than a world eaters one, the only difference with Tsons is that all the crews would have been turned into Rubrics, so I wonder who drives the vehicles and would like a little blurb to explain it, now IF the Osiron dread turns up and is a psyker dread, or they gave the contemptor all is dust, I would look at it differently.
As for moving goal posts, its not moving goal posts to wonder about something completely different from the conversion I was having, who pilots the vehicles doesnt really impact on the "I would like more types of Rubrics" conversation.
It isn't "hyperbole" if I apply the exact same logic you've applied to Thousand Sons to other armies and see what happens.
Unique units that are not space marines, don't count - gotcha
Named characters don't count because not everyone wants to use them - gotcha
Units that other subfactions have don't count - gotcha
In this instance, how many "real" unique units constitute other existing subfactions which have been around for many editions?
Blood Angels: 3 unique dreadnoughts, 1 unique tank, 1 unique HQ in the Sanguinary Priest, 2 unique infantry units. 7 total for an army that's been unique since what, second ed? third?
Space Wolves: 2 unique dreads, 2 unique planes, 2 unique infantry units. Everything else is just a rename of existing space marine units, that hardly counts. Wait, wtf is this? FOUR units of different flavors of wolfy wolf? they're nearly outnumbering the REAL space wolves units, this is an outrage!!
Deathwatch: 3 unique units. GW, you make me sick.
Grey Knights are the only subfaction that's not completely overrun with disgusting GENERIC marine units and unacceptable non-power armored units. Grey knights players must be so pleased right now, their faction is the only one that even approaches OK.
again, what are you talking about, what point are you trying to make by mentioning that other subfactions get a lot more unique units? are you trying to support what I am saying by asking for more units for the Tsons specifically? as that is what it looks like.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I think it's still odd that someone says "It's not Tsons if it's not all Rubrics!" When this is how Tsons actually fight.. It's Thousand Sons, they lead the Gors, it's their armies from the Planet of Sorcerers and not some random planets Tzeentch armies.
Just because it's not all walking rubric doesn't mean it's still not armies used by the THOUSAND SONS.
Some people just want power armour vs power armour slapping each other. I personally feel doing stuff like this makes chaos space marines more unique compared to their loyalist counterparts. It's also known that they have tzaangors on the planet of the sorcerers. In my eyes if they update EC and the only focus on noise marines I will be disappointed. I personally hope for gen-enhanced cultists considering the EC's focus on apothecaries and their sudden need to find psykers. I hope our apothecary is a blend of the two roles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 13:52:12
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I think it's still odd that someone says "It's not Tsons if it's not all Rubrics!" When this is how Tsons actually fight.. It's Thousand Sons, they lead the Gors, it's their armies from the Planet of Sorcerers and not some random planets Tzeentch armies.
Just because it's not all walking rubric doesn't mean it's still not armies used by the THOUSAND SONS.
I dont think anyone has actually said that? can you quote it?
I have said repeatedly that Gors are not Tsons, because they are not, as for "this is how they fight" anyone that has said that is kinda right at the moment, we dont really have any fluff that shows them fighting with Tzaangors, beastmen, other gribblies sure, but not Tzaangors, they are a new old faction, they were forgotten about in 40k and now they have been brought back (thankfully).
Do you have any examples of them leading Tzaangors from the planet of the sorcerers?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I think it's still odd that someone says "It's not Tsons if it's not all Rubrics!" When this is how Tsons actually fight.. It's Thousand Sons, they lead the Gors, it's their armies from the Planet of Sorcerers and not some random planets Tzeentch armies.
Just because it's not all walking rubric doesn't mean it's still not armies used by the THOUSAND SONS.
Some people just want power armour vs power armour slapping each other. I personally feel doing stuff like this makes chaos space marines more unique compared to their loyalist counterparts. It's also known that they have tzaangors on the planet of the sorcerers. In my eyes if they update EC and the only focus on noise marines I will be disappointed. I personally hope for gen-enhanced cultists considering the EC's focus on apothecaries and their sudden need to find psykers. I hope our apothecary is a blend of the two roles.
I hope they don't focus entirely on NOISE either, much as I love to drop the beat in my own armies, I mean EC has been reduced to Warbands mostly so we'll probably have some oddball stuff that's for sure.
I dont think anyone has actually said that? can you quote it?
I'm not talking about your quotes and I am referring to Thousand Son Sorcerer who I will quote below, and many times throughout this thread that I am surprised you missed all them.
"Never said the Army was ruined, said they were dead, read the title, and they are, they WERE an army which focused on bringing Automatons to win fights, and now they are going to be an army with a few automatons to support the Warflocks of Tzeentch, they should have called this codex Tzeentch Non-Daemonkin, not Thousand Sons."
I have said repeatedly that Gors are not Tsons, because they are not, as for "this is how they fight" anyone that has said that is kinda right at the moment, we dont really have any fluff that shows them fighting with Tzaangors, beastmen, other gribblies sure, but not Tzaangors, they are a new old faction, they were forgotten about in 40k and now they have been brought back (thankfully).
(and yes, I do take old fluff returned as similar) They used Gors in the Wrath of Magnus books, so yes. Beastmen mutants got shafted, we know this, but that's how the Realms of Chaos book (the best book for Chaos!) Had them as.
That they want to make the Chaos Armies unique rather then Chaosy Space Marines is the best thing in my opinion over just generally making more and more marines.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/18 14:02:04
nevermind I have found the fluff for Tzaangors and Tsons, its almost non existent and nowhere does it even mention they take them off planet, post 2nd ed and the recent revival, they had literally been sqauted, so dont blame people for not knowing they existed once upon a time.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I think it's still odd that someone says "It's not Tsons if it's not all Rubrics!" When this is how Tsons actually fight.. It's Thousand Sons, they lead the Gors, it's their armies from the Planet of Sorcerers and not some random planets Tzeentch armies.
Just because it's not all walking rubric doesn't mean it's still not armies used by the THOUSAND SONS.
Some people just want power armour vs power armour slapping each other. I personally feel doing stuff like this makes chaos space marines more unique compared to their loyalist counterparts. It's also known that they have tzaangors on the planet of the sorcerers. In my eyes if they update EC and the only focus on noise marines I will be disappointed. I personally hope for gen-enhanced cultists considering the EC's focus on apothecaries and their sudden need to find psykers. I hope our apothecary is a blend of the two roles.
I hope they don't focus entirely on NOISE either, much as I love to drop the beat in my own armies, I mean EC has been reduced to Warbands mostly so we'll probably have some oddball stuff that's for sure.
I dont think anyone has actually said that? can you quote it?
I'm not talking about your quotes and I am referring to Thousand Son Sorcerer who I will quote below, and many times throughout this thread that I am surprised you missed all them.
"Never said the Army was ruined, said they were dead, read the title, and they are, they WERE an army which focused on bringing Automatons to win fights, and now they are going to be an army with a few automatons to support the Warflocks of Tzeentch, they should have called this codex Tzeentch Non-Daemonkin, not Thousand Sons."
I have said repeatedly that Gors are not Tsons, because they are not, as for "this is how they fight" anyone that has said that is kinda right at the moment, we dont really have any fluff that shows them fighting with Tzaangors, beastmen, other gribblies sure, but not Tzaangors, they are a new old faction, they were forgotten about in 40k and now they have been brought back (thankfully).
(and yes, I do take old fluff returned as similar) They used Gors in the Wrath of Magnus books, so yes. Beastmen mutants got shafted, we know this, but that's how the Realms of Chaos book (the best book for Chaos!) Had them as.
That they want to make the Chaos Armies unique rather then Chaosy Space Marines is the best thing in my opinion over just generally making more and more marines.
That person is right, it would have made more sense to call it codex: Tzeench Deamonkin or something, but thats here nor there honestly.
With a bit of luck and the return of beastmen, we will get the other types in time, and hoping even more that in time it will basically be a lost and the damned type book that has all the different horrible gribblies, I would jump on that straight away, love me some beastmen!.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 14:06:31
I do hope they'll eventually get some more weapon options in the future. I know they are intended to be "Rubric Chaff" but they are more expensive then the average chaff even if they are pretty decent in their own right.
If nothing else, some banners or equipment could be pretty good.
That person is right, it would have made more sense to call it codex: Tzeench Deamonkin or something, but thats here nor there honestly.
Well thats because you refuse to acknowledge that 30k isn't the same as 40k. TS in 40k is not a space marine legion, they dont have a recruitment program with geneseed, they dont have apothecaries/chaplains, They dont have a legion organizational structure or any of the other things that make a space marine legion a legion. Thousand sons are today a a group of warbands lead by sorcerers, these warbands are made up rubricae, tzaangors/mutants, cultists, chaos beasts or whatever else the sorcerer in question fancies. Claiming that because you have tzaangors it's not a TS codex is absurd in that context!
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I think it's still odd that someone says "It's not Tsons if it's not all Rubrics!" When this is how Tsons actually fight.. It's Thousand Sons, they lead the Gors, it's their armies from the Planet of Sorcerers and not some random planets Tzeentch armies.
Just because it's not all walking rubric doesn't mean it's still not armies used by the THOUSAND SONS.
NOBODY IS SAYING THAT. Jesus Christo. For the 100th time, people are upset that we now have MORE Tzaangor units than Thousand Sons Marines in the Thousand Sons codex. We finally got a codex. If we had even one new kit, that would have been fine. Something new. Either a coven of Sorcerers, or Rubric Devastators, or even Rubric fast attack on Discs. Something simple would have been fine! But no, we get ported over kits from AoS. It's extremely lazy and depressing. Good freaking lord. I'm going to copy and paste this every time someone claims the same thing you did.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Never said the Army was ruined, said they were dead, read the title, and they are, they WERE an army which focused on bringing Automatons to win fights, and now they are going to be an army with a few automatons to support the Warflocks of Tzeentch, they should have called this codex Tzeentch Non-Daemonkin, not Thousand Sons. Glad to see you agree with me though.
I don't agree with you at all. Unless GW badly mangles the points, this will be the most viable the Sons have been in decades, possibly ever. Even beyond that, you can still take Sorcs/Rubricae/Scarabs, nobody is forcing you to take non-marine units so you can focus your army on the dustbins if you so choose. Given the surety of your statement, you should be posting in the news and ruours thread since you've clearly got an early copy of the 'dex if you KNOW it's going to be so heavily biased towards the non-marine units.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: If they are a legion in name only why not get rid of them as a Legion? Plot armor is not a reason to keep something like that around, they could keep them in the fluff and squat the army. There not popular at all since GW is unwilling to spend money on new models for them.
Because the Sons are one of the perennial favourites of the 10 billion "which legion is your favourite" polls that have been held on the various 40k forums for years and there would be a riot if they tried? Not willing to spend money? We got 3 new sorcs (and a load of bits to make dozens of variations), a new Ahriman (on disk!) and he got his own trilogy and an assortment of short stories, redone Rubricae, our own termies, a freakin' primarch (all of which are fantastic models) and you say that GW doesn't want to spend money on them? Just how high are you? Plot armour isn't a reason to keep 'em, but their popularity and their suitability for making good villians definately is.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Yet there are other places where we violate the fluff, Like with Hellbrutes (no CSM to put in them), Daemon Engines in general (no access to warp smiths to build them), Vehicles which are supposed to be piloted by CSMs (again no access). If we went by fluff we would have Access to CSM and Warp Smiths we don't why not? That or we don't get Daemon Engines, Vehicles, no Helbrutes, we would have a 9 unit army which had almost as many spawn entries as TS entries.
Dreads could be pre-rubric and were dusted into it permanantly or even have been stolen salvaged from other legions/chapters via sorcery, the daemon engines can be traded with other forces on the unlikely chance that you can't make your own mechanical shell and have your various sorcs bind daemons into them and Vehicles can be piloted by anyone, they don't have to be marines, they could be daeamonically possessed or you can have pre-rubric vehicles that had their drivers dusted into their compartment. Given the fluff from the heresy, there were relatively few TS techmarines and those they did have probably got offed in the scuffle on Prospero. When your legion gets cut down from tens of thousands to ~1500 and then cut even further by the rubric, you're not going to have many specialists left, even less than you'd expect since the "normies" all got dusted and only the stronger psychers (who probably weren't techmarines or chaplains and such) remain, yeah, it's not super likely for you to have any techmarines left. Sure, you'll have some of the order of ruin, but I'd say much of it was replaced by sorcery and the stuff that wasn't probably got farmed out to the dark mechanicum.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Shaman, Enlightened, and Mutalith were announced on the Community page, Skyfires were confirmed on FB, assuming they do the logical thing and have all 3 new Tzaangor units access to Discs (which also breaks the fluff of Disks of Tzeentch being an Honored gift and being rare but hey it's what you want). This means we have a 4 to 3 ratio of Tzaangors and we will now have 2 variations of Spawn maybe we can get a flying version and an HQ Spawn you know more TS units.
So, you're assuming what we're going to get and complaining that the sky is falling about stuff that might not happen? Also, I never said I wanted disks to be common.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Of course you could, but here are a bunch of reasons why it makes no sense, Everything you said can be applied to SM and Libby dreads, why does the group that hates and tries to destroy psykers in all their forms, except the ones they think are okay, but even those are shunned. Which means OBJECTIVLY you are much more likely to have a Chaos Sorc Dread (Especially from a dying Legion) then a Libby Dread, or what do you think their SM brothers would think when that fething abomination gets put in a damn Dread.
Except the bit where the chaos marines don't have the same views on serving their chapter and if you put someone in a giant unstoppable killing machine that's nigh invulnerable to anything short of anti-tank weapons, especially if it has retained it's psycher abilities, it's not going to let you keep bossing it around. Therefore anyone in command isn't going to let their position as chief arse-kicker be taken by a near dead psycher. IIRC, the Sons were the ones who figured out how to preserve the ability of psychers to continue to cast their space magic after they'd been stuffed into a dread and shared it with all the other legions, but only the BA really thought it was a good idea. It's definately not out of the question that the Sons simply can't replicate that anymore now that the majority of their legion and support staff have been busy being dead for the last 10,000 years. The loyalists probably also don't have the ability to heal themselves and others from "He's-dead-Jim" back to "good-as-new" status with psychery and witchcraft like the biomancers of the Thousand Sons do either, so, again, another reason why it's fairly unlikely for them to have psychernaughts.
Don't get me wrong, I think a psychic dread would be cool, and sometimes that's all the justification you need, but you can't ignore that there are a bunch of fluff reasons that say why it hasn't happened. Yes, you can totally re-write the fluff and retcon stuff away, but everytime you do, you're losing something of their identity. Having the same toys as other legions/chapters doesn't give them something special or expand their identity away from spiky marines, it goes the opposite way. The Sons have always been the most different from the other legions, I just don't see why you want to make them the same when we have interesting, fluffy choices for the first time in forever. I used to hate seeing people posting about their "Thousand Son list" with 1 squad of 5 rubricae and then filled with stuff like oblits, raptors and bikers, but I could understand why they did it because the Sons couldn't remain fluffy and have in codex FA or non-vehicle HS choices. Now we can and I'd really encourage you to at least wait until we have some solid info from the leaks before deciding that the Sons are "dead". What if rubricae are 15 ppm, they get regular smite and everyone always re-rolls perils with a 1CP stratagem for +1 to wound for all bolt weapons? Would they still be "dead"?
Edit: Missed a Quote tag
There is really no reasons fluff-wise that Thousand Sons don't have a Psyker Dreadnought and only two Chapters do, which is Blood Angels and Grey Knights. And it's even more ridiculous how much more capable the Blood Angels one is compared to the latter.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
And I agree fully with Formosa. This needed to be called Codex: Tzeentch. Not Daemons. Not Thousand Sons. Tzeentch. And I would have been fully 100% supportive of that and thrown my money at GW. In fact they should do that for all 4 gods.
NOBODY IS SAYING THAT. . Jesus Christo. For the 100th time, people are upset that we now have MORE Tzaangor units than Thousand Sons Marines in the Thousand Sons codex.
And I agree fully with Formosa. This needed to be called Codex: Tzeentch.
Yes, you can be fine with disliking that there's more Tzaangor infantry types then Rubric Marines, but calling it not-thousand sons because you don't feel that's how Thousand Sons fight is just.. yeah.
So what now, Rubric marines for everyone Tzeentch related along with the Tzaangors that come from the Planet of Sorcerers? I guess that's fine too, but I certainly can't be thrilled if Emperor's Children get's cut out because of something like this.
This topic at this point is basically going nowhere pretty much though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/18 16:25:14
Looks like a whole lot of spells spread out along all the sorcerers. Not sure why a Predator is in there. Looks like the Beast doesn't get spells. Looks like what I said was right all along: you've got an elite army with other units to fill the gaps. On the flip side you've got the Custodes who are a SUPER elite army that can only field a certain number of units due to their high cost and SUPER abilities.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/18 17:02:30
Spending however many points to give your predator with lascannons a combi-melta. Adorable, classic GW.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Given Ahriman and Magnus have Dark Hereticus spells, the Daemon Prince has spells from the Daemon dex.. Did they get any new spells at all?
Also seems you can't even make a pure Tzaangor list, given that the shaman is an Elite.
Look closer, the Shaman has doombolt and the Scarab Occult Sorcerer and Aspiring Sorcerer have Temporal Manipulation and Glamour of Tzeentch respectively.
Let me reiterate that: the rubric sorcerers have spells known! An elegant solution to the smite problem existed and they actually took it, I can't believe it.
Backspacehacker wrote: Hahaha! Magnus still gets warp time get wrecked nerds
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tbh until I see the rules for tzengors, I'm thinking daemons will be a better ally for t sons
Well it's them or Cultists to fill out the detachment. The Shaman might get the same ability he gets in AoS to bring back dead Tzaangor when he kills things with his spell, which is a great ability for your screen. Tzaangors are also not slouches in close combat which makes them pretty good to absorb alpha strikes.
Another thing we learned from this list is that the "Daemon Prince of Tzeentch" is its own datasheet. I was wondering if they'd give us the same treatment they gave Death Guard because the "Daemon Prince of Nurgle" actually has its own model, but apparently we're getting the 4++ prince (and it looks like he has two spells, maybe???).
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Given Ahriman and Magnus have Dark Hereticus spells, the Daemon Prince has spells from the Daemon dex.. Did they get any new spells at all?
Also seems you can't even make a pure Tzaangor list, given that the shaman is an Elite.
Look closer, the Shaman has doombolt and the Scarab Occult Sorcerer and Aspiring Sorcerer have Temporal Manipulation and Glamour of Tzeentch respectively.
Let me reiterate that: the rubric sorcerers have spells known! An elegant solution to the smite problem existed and they actually took it, I can't believe it.
Unless they used a command point to switch out smite for a power.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Given Ahriman and Magnus have Dark Hereticus spells, the Daemon Prince has spells from the Daemon dex.. Did they get any new spells at all?
Also seems you can't even make a pure Tzaangor list, given that the shaman is an Elite.
Look closer, the Shaman has doombolt and the Scarab Occult Sorcerer and Aspiring Sorcerer have Temporal Manipulation and Glamour of Tzeentch respectively.
Let me reiterate that: the rubric sorcerers have spells known! An elegant solution to the smite problem existed and they actually took it, I can't believe it.
Unless they used a command point to switch out smite for a power.
That stratagem happens during the game, not before, so it would be silly to mark it off in the list.
I don't think Glamor of Tzeentch is a power. Look how they list it compared to how the list Ahriman/Magnus' multiple powers.
I think its some kind of equipment or special rule/upgrade.
It also brings into question exactly what "Temporal Manipulation" is. My guess is either a baby-power list for the scarab occults ala Runes of Battle, or some other kind of equipment/upgrade you can take instead of "Glamor of Tzeentch".
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
