Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Some food for thought;

I copied the army list the Thousand Sons player used today into Battlescribe, minus the units that don't exist yet, and the points total was 1592. Basically, barring any points changes, the remaining 408 points were spent on the 9 Enlightened with Greatbows, the Mutalith and the Shaman.

Given that the Mutalith is a 14 wound regenerating monster with an invulnerable save that buffs nearby units and apparently has pretty decent melee stats (when wounded it was Strength 7 Attacks 4) I'd say that would probably be in the 150-200+ range.
The Enlightened with bows sound really nasty and presumably will have 2 wounds each at minimum, so 9 of them will probably cost a fair penny too - probably in the 200+ range.
The Shaman can cast one spell a turn but is functionally a psyker on a disk, even Heralds of Tzeentch on disks aren't all that cheap so I'm guessing the Shaman will probably be around the 100ish mark.

Conclusion; I'd say it's a fair bet we are getting points drops, that or the new stuff is under-costed based on what I expect given what they are apparently capable of. I don't see the Daemon Prince, Cultists and Predator getting points drops whatsoever, meaning any points drops we did get based on that list are tied to Ahriman, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult and Magnus. Seems like a safe bet!

If I remember correctly they said on the stream the TS list was 1996 points. I don't remember the exact number but it was really close to 2k

Ahriman21 wrote:
Thousand sons look far less "dead" all of a sudden.

40 Tzzangors and 11 TS (not including magnus)

Yup your totally right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Caederes wrote:
Some food for thought;

I copied the army list the Thousand Sons player used today into Battlescribe, minus the units that don't exist yet, and the points total was 1592. Basically, barring any points changes, the remaining 408 points were spent on the 9 Enlightened with Greatbows, the Mutalith and the Shaman.

Given that the Mutalith is a 14 wound regenerating monster with an invulnerable save that buffs nearby units and apparently has pretty decent melee stats (when wounded it was Strength 7 Attacks 4) I'd say that would probably be in the 150-200+ range.
The Enlightened with bows sound really nasty and presumably will have 2 wounds each at minimum, so 9 of them will probably cost a fair penny too - probably in the 200+ range.
The Shaman can cast one spell a turn but is functionally a psyker on a disk, even Heralds of Tzeentch on disks aren't all that cheap so I'm guessing the Shaman will probably be around the 100ish mark.

Conclusion; I'd say it's a fair bet we are getting points drops, that or the new stuff is under-costed based on what I expect given what they are apparently capable of. I don't see the Daemon Prince, Cultists and Predator getting points drops whatsoever, meaning any points drops we did get based on that list are tied to Ahriman, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult and Magnus. Seems like a safe bet!

Or they have 1 wound and cost 11 PPM to prevent people from spamming them and casting prescience on them every turn.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


40 Tzzangors and 11 TS (not including magnus)

Yup your totally right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Or they have 1 wound and cost 11 PPM to prevent people from spamming them and casting prescience on them every turn.

So an army trying out the new stuff, getting a win and showcasing big buffs our psykers get is proof that Thousand Sons are dead according to you? Can you finally accept that the entire premise of this thread was incredibly stupid?

Also, thanks for showcasing yet again that your grasp on reality is taking second place to your bias. Disk-riding models are pretty much guaranteed to have 2 wounds each. At 11 PPM they'd be absurdly under-priced for their theoretical damage output, so I don't get what point you're trying to make. Or are you being sarcastic? I don't care. The reality is, it looks like our main units are getting points drops. I'm sorry that doesn't fit your "Rubrics will be trash" narrative, especially as the main change they needed - having a useful squad leader - actually happened.

Thousand Son Sorcerer; Its okay to be wrong! we forgive you <3

Hope is the first step on the road to an AWESOME CODEX

Side note; What is wrong with you? judging by the list design I wont even need Tzaangors if I dont want them, 20-30 some odd Rubrics, couple of nice Deep-strike drops, bunch of spellcasters, if you want some chaff you can toss in cultist if you hate goats that much.

That and the Mutalith looks like it has good support options if we are getting a 6 or 3 choice list from it.

Just give up, give in to the awesome, and enjoy the army you claim to love just for once. okay?

He is kinda right regarding that list, it's 11 thousand sons models and 40 tzaangors, but that doesn't mean you can't take 11 tzaangors and 40 thousand sons instead if we get a good price drop.

never said the codex was dead, never thought it would be, did think it would be bland and boring and follow the usual theme of the 8th books so far, just waiting and seeing for now.

I have to agree with him, that list didn't seem any more 1ksons than a daemon list with Magnus does(slight exaggeration for fun). They got lazy with the AoS stuff.

This doesn't mean that it won't be a successful codex, or that it won't have awesome stuff to make it more legion focused, but that specific battle force did not counter his concerns.

The gold Marines, who are specifically called out for being a small expensive force, actually had more Marines on the table..hah!

 The Sentinel wrote:
If I remember correctly they said on the stream the TS list was 1996 points. I don't remember the exact number but it was really close to 2k

1999 points @ 29:12

You'll probably need a rubric-heavy list if you want to take full advantage of the huge number of spells we get. The Shaman will probably be somewhere around 100 points which means we still don't have a primaris psyker equivalent, if you want to use all those spells without flooding your list with inefficient HQ choices you'll need to fill up on aspiring sorcerers.

Looked perfectly fine to me. 40 tzaangors for 13 tsons (as all the HQ choices are thousand sons, even the generic daemon prince is hypothetically a former marine who ascended) seems perfectly reasonable.

I really don't get why people are upset about getting a functional lore friendly army with lots of diversity. 30K is absolutely still an option for anyone who wants to just play marines on top of more marines.

SilverAlien wrote:
Looked perfectly fine to me. 40 tzaangors for 13 tsons (as all the HQ choices are thousand sons, even the generic daemon prince is hypothetically a former marine who ascended) seems perfectly reasonable.

I really don't get why people are upset about getting a functional lore friendly army with lots of diversity. 30K is absolutely still an option for anyone who wants to just play marines on top of more marines.

while there where 40 Tzaangors in the army, the bulk of that was a single 30 man unit. rather then men on the field one should ask unit types. so if you have 1 30 man tzaanagor unit, 2 squads of rubric marines a scarb occult, and a sorc. sure you on paper have more tzaagors but you have 4 marine UNITS vs 1 Gor unit.

I don't care if we get new units what I care about is either giving us BETTER rules or reducing rubric pt cost. After seeing the ridiculous abilities and weapon armory and power of the death-guard codex, rubrics just seem like such a laughing stock of a joke. We have the single most expensive Troop units in the game that STILL cannot shoot anything below or above their weight class, they kept their pt cost relatively the same AND took away AP, and their all is dust rule is erelavant because anyone shooting at rubrics or scarabs is NOT going to be shooting damage 1 weapons at them, as a veteran thousand sons player I feel cheated forever now. But wait just like the last little codex entry for them in 7th edition this new "Codex" for them is most likely going to CENTER AROUND DAEMONS with 1ksons being a filler background note. My apologies for seeming like a ranting lunatic but my god I cannot find anyone in my gaming community that doesn't praise 1ksons as the most broken OP faction in the game and yet out right refuses to play them when I tell them to prove it.

 Malal42 wrote:
IWe have the single most expensive Troop units in the game .

Grey Knight termies say Hi.

Custodian much?

Great news on having more variety in the psychic phase and Aspiring Sorcerers getting more options than Smite-Lite.

I'm actually feeling a bit enthusiastic about finishing off my TS army that I've been ignoring since 8th Ed dropped. I even have a box of Tzaangor Enlightened I bought to steal the discs for sorcerers. I may have to rethink that...

Caederes wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


40 Tzzangors and 11 TS (not including magnus)

Yup your totally right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Or they have 1 wound and cost 11 PPM to prevent people from spamming them and casting prescience on them every turn.

So an army trying out the new stuff, getting a win and showcasing big buffs our psykers get is proof that Thousand Sons are dead according to you? Can you finally accept that the entire premise of this thread was incredibly stupid?

Also, thanks for showcasing yet again that your grasp on reality is taking second place to your bias. Disk-riding models are pretty much guaranteed to have 2 wounds each. At 11 PPM they'd be absurdly under-priced for their theoretical damage output, so I don't get what point you're trying to make. Or are you being sarcastic? I don't care. The reality is, it looks like our main units are getting points drops. I'm sorry that doesn't fit your "Rubrics will be trash" narrative, especially as the main change they needed - having a useful squad leader - actually happened.

I love how people like you are allowed to throw insults and tell people to get bent, and not receive any warnings. But people who try to defend themselves or get mad because they were insulted and reply in kind get warnings.

It's also hilarious that you claim this means you were correct yet the next 3 or 4 posts agree with the op.

 Malal42 wrote:
I don't care if we get new units what I care about is either giving us BETTER rules or reducing rubric pt cost. After seeing the ridiculous abilities and weapon armory and power of the death-guard codex, rubrics just seem like such a laughing stock of a joke. We have the single most expensive Troop units in the game that STILL cannot shoot anything below or above their weight class, they kept their pt cost relatively the same AND took away AP, and their all is dust rule is erelavant because anyone shooting at rubrics or scarabs is NOT going to be shooting damage 1 weapons at them, as a veteran thousand sons player I feel cheated forever now. But wait just like the last little codex entry for them in 7th edition this new "Codex" for them is most likely going to CENTER AROUND DAEMONS with 1ksons being a filler background note. My apologies for seeming like a ranting lunatic but my god I cannot find anyone in my gaming community that doesn't praise 1ksons as the most broken OP faction in the game and yet out right refuses to play them when I tell them to prove it.

Everything we have seen previewed here so far indicates that Rubrics are going to be in a better spot post codex than they are now. Even assuming that there are zero points changes and that all aspiring sorcs are going to still be slinging mini-smites:

1) Aspiring sorcs all get spells, at least from the new Tsons-specific discipline if not also Dark Hereticus, and they get 6" extra casting range on them. This changes the sorc from total deadweight back to a very compelling reason to take the squad. the "2 5-man rubric squad in a rhino" configuration gets a big boost with this.

2) We now have a copy of the Necron relic from chapter approved. One of the biggest weaknesses of having a large rubric squad, getting tied up in melee and not being able to shoot, gets mitigated with this relic. Pick up the bearer and the rubric squad at the beginning of the turn, and deep strike them back down, and they get to shoot again.

3) we get a deep strike stratagem, another solid incentive to run big rubric squads. They drop straight into double tap range and the aspiring sorceror comes with one of the new spells to cast as soon as they come down (say, the -1 to hit spell making them more durable)

4) we will almost certainly get the changes rubrics got in the CSM codex on our troopbrics as well even if we don't see any other buffs. The big one there is a soulreaper being available on just a 5-man squad, letting you make the most of the shooting turn you get hopping out of your rhino.

Even if you just say "aspiring sorcerors get powers again, and we have 6-12 additional powers available to choose from" a rubric focused traditional Tsons list is in a far better spot and theres far more reason to be taking rubric squads. Do I hope we get additional points drops? Yeah, I think the basic bodies are too expensive. Do I think the codex is going to be focused on daemons? ....no? Unless you count Magnus, there were no daemons in the battle report at all.

Was about to say, the fact rubrics and occult got full powers again is kinda big deal.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Was about to say, the fact rubrics and occult got full powers again is kinda big deal.

Especially if the Sons get a stratagem similar to the Chaos Familiar in the CSM codex (which I'm sure they will). With the apparently-huge number of spells the Sons will have access to, a stratagem like that means that you're almost never stuck in a situation where you won't have a useful spell on-tap.

After this, the Tzeentch Arcanites battleforce will likely be sold through in a matter of weeks. Everything but the Acolytes are useable in 40k now, and even those could be used as cultists.

Caederes wrote:
Some food for thought;

I copied the army list the Thousand Sons player used today into Battlescribe, minus the units that don't exist yet, and the points total was 1592. Basically, barring any points changes, the remaining 408 points were spent on the 9 Enlightened with Greatbows, the Mutalith and the Shaman.

Given that the Mutalith is a 14 wound regenerating monster with an invulnerable save that buffs nearby units and apparently has pretty decent melee stats (when wounded it was Strength 7 Attacks 4) I'd say that would probably be in the 150-200+ range.
The Enlightened with bows sound really nasty and presumably will have 2 wounds each at minimum, so 9 of them will probably cost a fair penny too - probably in the 200+ range.
The Shaman can cast one spell a turn but is functionally a psyker on a disk, even Heralds of Tzeentch on disks aren't all that cheap so I'm guessing the Shaman will probably be around the 100ish mark.

Conclusion; I'd say it's a fair bet we are getting points drops, that or the new stuff is under-costed based on what I expect given what they are apparently capable of. I don't see the Daemon Prince, Cultists and Predator getting points drops whatsoever, meaning any points drops we did get based on that list are tied to Ahriman, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult and Magnus. Seems like a safe bet!

Thanks for taking the time to do this, I was thinking the same thing once I knew how much the list was. I agree and think it is 99% that there will be some kind of point drop for rubrics and SoT. I think the point drop will be not paying for the Aspiring Sorcerer, and maybe rubrics getting a point or two cheaper. Also, consider that it is possible that magnus/Arhiman could be more expensive depending if they improved Arhiman's staff and opponents have been asking for a Magnus point increase for a while. So I think it is even more likely that there is a point drop for some units, or the new stuff is criminally cheap

 EnTyme wrote:
Everything but the Acolytes are useable in 40k now, and even those could be used as cultists.

That's a great idea!

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Thousand Sons has always been an army that avoided mutations at all costs. Ahrimans Rubric was to prevent the mutations from occurring on the surviving thousand Sons members. Ahriman even kills one Marine when he mutates a bit and seems to enjoy it.

Probably why Ahriman used to be the TS's archenemy No. uno, even before Space Wolves and all the rest.

 xeen wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Some food for thought;

I copied the army list the Thousand Sons player used today into Battlescribe, minus the units that don't exist yet, and the points total was 1592. Basically, barring any points changes, the remaining 408 points were spent on the 9 Enlightened with Greatbows, the Mutalith and the Shaman.

Given that the Mutalith is a 14 wound regenerating monster with an invulnerable save that buffs nearby units and apparently has pretty decent melee stats (when wounded it was Strength 7 Attacks 4) I'd say that would probably be in the 150-200+ range.
The Enlightened with bows sound really nasty and presumably will have 2 wounds each at minimum, so 9 of them will probably cost a fair penny too - probably in the 200+ range.
The Shaman can cast one spell a turn but is functionally a psyker on a disk, even Heralds of Tzeentch on disks aren't all that cheap so I'm guessing the Shaman will probably be around the 100ish mark.

Conclusion; I'd say it's a fair bet we are getting points drops, that or the new stuff is under-costed based on what I expect given what they are apparently capable of. I don't see the Daemon Prince, Cultists and Predator getting points drops whatsoever, meaning any points drops we did get based on that list are tied to Ahriman, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult and Magnus. Seems like a safe bet!

Thanks for taking the time to do this, I was thinking the same thing once I knew how much the list was. I agree and think it is 99% that there will be some kind of point drop for rubrics and SoT. I think the point drop will be not paying for the Aspiring Sorcerer, and maybe rubrics getting a point or two cheaper. Also, consider that it is possible that magnus/Arhiman could be more expensive depending if they improved Arhiman's staff and opponents have been asking for a Magnus point increase for a while. So I think it is even more likely that there is a point drop for some units, or the new stuff is criminally cheap

It's unlikely they make Magnus more expensive, I think. They already nerfed him big time by taking away his invuln reroll.

Caederes wrote:
Some food for thought;

I copied the army list the Thousand Sons player used today into Battlescribe, minus the units that don't exist yet, and the points total was 1592. Basically, barring any points changes, the remaining 408 points were spent on the 9 Enlightened with Greatbows, the Mutalith and the Shaman.

Given that the Mutalith is a 14 wound regenerating monster with an invulnerable save that buffs nearby units and apparently has pretty decent melee stats (when wounded it was Strength 7 Attacks 4) I'd say that would probably be in the 150-200+ range.
The Enlightened with bows sound really nasty and presumably will have 2 wounds each at minimum, so 9 of them will probably cost a fair penny too - probably in the 200+ range.
The Shaman can cast one spell a turn but is functionally a psyker on a disk, even Heralds of Tzeentch on disks aren't all that cheap so I'm guessing the Shaman will probably be around the 100ish mark.

Conclusion; I'd say it's a fair bet we are getting points drops, that or the new stuff is under-costed based on what I expect given what they are apparently capable of. I don't see the Daemon Prince, Cultists and Predator getting points drops whatsoever, meaning any points drops we did get based on that list are tied to Ahriman, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult and Magnus. Seems like a safe bet!

Mutalith does NOT have an invul this was specifically mentioned in the stream.

From the stream Storm bolter from Land Raider shoots at Enlightened, hits with 4 wounds with 3, 3 dice from saves were 4, 1, and 6, 2 models removed they have 1 wound. Why would they have 2 anyways? Discs don't add a wound to anyone else, why would the Tzaangors be special?

agreed that the Shaman will probably cost around 100 points.

Mutalith is probably 150-175

Shaman is probably 100

Enlightened are probably 12-14 PPM (108-126 points)

They have said Skyfires have 3 weapons options. I doubt they are gonna release a upgrade sprue, so maybe they'll have the option to use the basic weapon sprue that already exist? Pistol+CS.

From the stream Storm bolter from Land Raider shoots at Enlightened, hits with 4 wounds with 3, 3 dice from saves were 4, 1, and 6, 2 models removed they have 1 wound. Why would they have 2 anyways? Discs don't add a wound to anyone else, why would the Tzaangors be special?

Which is really strange as AoS has them at 4 wounds, which is why people thought they might be.. Actually durable.

 Galas wrote:
They have said Skyfires have 3 weapons options. I doubt they are gonna release a upgrade sprue, so maybe they'll have the option to use the basic weapon sprue that already exist? Pistol+CS.

The arms are attached the same in each kit, so they could easily add the pistol+CS kit.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

From the stream Storm bolter from Land Raider shoots at Enlightened, hits with 4 wounds with 3, 3 dice from saves were 4, 1, and 6, 2 models removed they have 1 wound. Why would they have 2 anyways? Discs don't add a wound to anyone else, why would the Tzaangors be special?

Which is really strange as AoS has them at 4 wounds, which is why people thought they might be.. Actually durable.

I assume they want to keep the feeling that the actual durable units in the army are the Marines, and Tzaangors aren't anything more than chaff. Footsloging or in disc, they are here to die. As other poster said, in AoS, Tzaangors are actually the "elite" of Tzeentch armies.
This, assuming is true they have 1W of course.

That is true, given that even Rubrics are one wound apiece.

I just thought it might've been an Ogryn situation where a stronger looking, weaker armored character gets an extra wound or two personally.

Course I tend to forget Tzaangors aren't exactly too big.