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Yup. a lord is in the no-go territory, and the exalted sorcerer covers his position being a rather good melee in addition to psyker duties.
Overly expensive at the moment, but point costs are not a consideration pre-codex, they are highly subject to change.
That specific niche is covered. even if the aura is rather lame.
They also cover the reators of old. why they all forgot their termi/artificer armor is silly, but they can easily be considered the same guys.

Having a proper orison is easy for GW, so easy.
Contemptors has rules
Psyker "regular" dread has rules (blood angels)
Merging the two into one new TS slate to use orison models takes minutes of work, it generates sales that otherwise would not happen (few non HH players would buy an orison, compared to if it had a 40k slate)

"Havoc rubrics" is literally using the regular rubric models, its just up to the player to acquire more cannons (did you know FW sells rotor cannons who are basically the soulreaper cannon "pre warp"? easy monies.)

Don't know who suggested rubric bikers. havn't seen anyone put that up as anything but a counterpoint. what some people HAVE brought up, is disk rubrics-who actually would require minimal work, so lets put them aside.



The point is, we are disappointed.
GW had an opportunity to expand the army (in a way that generates new sells) without even making any kits.
They chose to actually do that, but they chose to do it with ports from sigmar, rather than from HH or simple "get your own bits plebs"
And it was a massive fail. because MOST thousand sons players don't care for the sigmar ports, nor like them. we might use them out of necessity, but its not what we wanted, and it defiantly will not generate equal sales to what could have been.
Saying we got "a new super-character, special sorcerors" isn't actually point out much.
Magnus is a named LoW. not everyone want to base their army on a spesific named LoW. not everyone enjoys to field massive models-but we are pushed towards it because we don't have much else. especially given that he actually works best with tzeentch daemons rather than actual thousand sons.
Special sorcerers are a joke. they come in kits of 3, but as it stands there is little reason to ever field one, let alone three-they trry doing everything and end up doing nothing valuable for how much they cost.


The codex itself would have to be freaking amazing to undo the massive letdown that the announcement created.
Honestly, I think I'd be less let down if they didn't port the sigmar units at all and just kept to current rooster. than at least I could HOPE for expansion of the rubric line.

craggy wrote:
I've tried reading some of this thread, but I'll admit the arguing from both sides made it difficult to grasp, but can someone clear something up for me? There's a lot of talk about Gors, are Thousand Sons bringing Beastmen back to 40k? Because that'd be cool.

Otherwise, Tzaangors have been in Thousand Sons already, and with GW doing the smart cross-game daemons thing, it only makes sense that the other AOS units would get some rules. Hell, I'd like to see them bring units from other armies in AOS into 40k! Gimme some Duardin assault units for Tau or Guard, some feral Orks and a sprue of space guns added to a Stormcast box would have saved them tons on developing the Custodes army!

Yes, the Tzaangor units from AoS are coming to 40k for Thousand Sons.

The issue players have isn't that they're getting Tzaangor units, it's that the Thousand Sons codex has Sorcerers, Exalted Sorcerers, Scarab Occult, and Rubrics as the Thousand Sons portion of the book. It will soon have as many Tzaangor units in the book. It will likely have as many CSM units in the book. Players are concerned that lists will be made up primarily of non-Thousand Sons units in both total points and model count in a Thousand Sons army. At what point does it become Thousand Sons in name only? We've already seen Magnus and 4 demon prince lists trying to pretend they're Thousand Sons. Next will be all Gor lists pretending they're Thousand Sons. Players want Thousand Sons in their Thousand Sons lists.

That's all there really is to it.

Nvs wrote:

craggy wrote:
I've tried reading some of this thread, but I'll admit the arguing from both sides made it difficult to grasp, but can someone clear something up for me? There's a lot of talk about Gors, are Thousand Sons bringing Beastmen back to 40k? Because that'd be cool.

Otherwise, Tzaangors have been in Thousand Sons already, and with GW doing the smart cross-game daemons thing, it only makes sense that the other AOS units would get some rules. Hell, I'd like to see them bring units from other armies in AOS into 40k! Gimme some Duardin assault units for Tau or Guard, some feral Orks and a sprue of space guns added to a Stormcast box would have saved them tons on developing the Custodes army!

Yes, the Tzaangor units from AoS are coming to 40k for Thousand Sons.

The issue players have isn't that they're getting Tzaangor units, it's that the Thousand Sons codex has Sorcerers, Exalted Sorcerers, Scarab Occult, and Rubrics as the Thousand Sons portion of the book. It will soon have as many Tzaangor units in the book. It will likely have as many CSM units in the book. Players are concerned that lists will be made up primarily of non-Thousand Sons units in both total points and model count in a Thousand Sons army. At what point does it become Thousand Sons in name only? We've already seen Magnus and 4 demon prince lists trying to pretend they're Thousand Sons. Next will be all Gor lists pretending they're Thousand Sons. Players want Thousand Sons in their Thousand Sons lists.

That's all there really is to it.

So, I'm honestly curious, would you classify the Blood Angels codex as having like 6 Blood Angels units and then 20something "Space Marines" units?

I don't know about yours, but my rhinos are manned by Thousand Sons and covered in Thousand Sons iconography, as is my predator, my Contemptor is an obviously Thousand Sons Osiron, and all my sorcerors daemon princes and jump sorcerors are all thousand sons units as well. I don't field 2-3 units of rubrics and then leave the rest of my army gray in protest because they don't have extra super-special rules for being part of my chosen subfaction.

To be honest I think t sons are gonna synergize better with daemons, especially if cultists don't have the t sons key word for Magnus to buff them. Might as well take horrors for better save and more damage potential.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Having a proper orison is easy for GW, so easy.
Contemptors has rules
Psyker "regular" dread has rules (blood angels)
Merging the two into one new TS slate to use orison models takes minutes of work, it generates sales that otherwise would not happen (few non HH players would buy an orison, compared to if it had a 40k slate)

Sure. But this would be FW's job as it is their model, and FW hates selling their models. There are vast amounts of HH models that should and could have 40K rules, but they don't.

the_scotsman wrote:

Nvs wrote:

craggy wrote:
I've tried reading some of this thread, but I'll admit the arguing from both sides made it difficult to grasp, but can someone clear something up for me? There's a lot of talk about Gors, are Thousand Sons bringing Beastmen back to 40k? Because that'd be cool.

Otherwise, Tzaangors have been in Thousand Sons already, and with GW doing the smart cross-game daemons thing, it only makes sense that the other AOS units would get some rules. Hell, I'd like to see them bring units from other armies in AOS into 40k! Gimme some Duardin assault units for Tau or Guard, some feral Orks and a sprue of space guns added to a Stormcast box would have saved them tons on developing the Custodes army!

Yes, the Tzaangor units from AoS are coming to 40k for Thousand Sons.

The issue players have isn't that they're getting Tzaangor units, it's that the Thousand Sons codex has Sorcerers, Exalted Sorcerers, Scarab Occult, and Rubrics as the Thousand Sons portion of the book. It will soon have as many Tzaangor units in the book. It will likely have as many CSM units in the book. Players are concerned that lists will be made up primarily of non-Thousand Sons units in both total points and model count in a Thousand Sons army. At what point does it become Thousand Sons in name only? We've already seen Magnus and 4 demon prince lists trying to pretend they're Thousand Sons. Next will be all Gor lists pretending they're Thousand Sons. Players want Thousand Sons in their Thousand Sons lists.

That's all there really is to it.

So, I'm honestly curious, would you classify the Blood Angels codex as having like 6 Blood Angels units and then 20something "Space Marines" units?

I don't know about yours, but my rhinos are manned by Thousand Sons and covered in Thousand Sons iconography, as is my predator, my Contemptor is an obviously Thousand Sons Osiron, and all my sorcerors daemon princes and jump sorcerors are all thousand sons units as well. I don't field 2-3 units of rubrics and then leave the rest of my army gray in protest because they don't have extra super-special rules for being part of my chosen subfaction.

Blood angels SPACE MARINES, are SPACE MARINES, so its not the same at all and is a false equivalence.

Your rhinos are crewed by who? we dont know, I would like to know though as its something I have always wondered about with Tsons, either way its a generic unit, not Tsons per say but a Legion unit, same as Space marines and Rhinos, same with predator, the Contemptor and Osiron is not the same, you can claim its so but your wrong, they are very different beasts, one being a psyker with a force weapon, the other being a Contemptor, the Deamon princes are the first unit you have mentioned that could be considered Tsons, but being Deamon princes I would say they are more Tzeench than Tsons, The Sorcerors on dics are Tsons for sure.

However that all being said I have no issue with what you are saying, if you want to use the Osiran to count as a Contemptor, thats fine, its not an Osiron though, the Tsons vehicles are something I would like the new codex to explain, because if its Rubrics driving them, thats even more proof that the "they lack the ability to use other complex weapons" is nonsense, and if they are not, who are the drivers, how are they recruited, I like that kind of fluff, I would also like some examples and a little backstory for Tsons DP, personally I would be happy if they were removed entirely or made 0-1 for all factions, its far to common to see 2/3 these days, they just seem like any other monster and they used to be unique killing machines, they have lost a lot of character over the years.

Wait, wasn't the goalpost over here a second ago?

 EnTyme wrote:
Wait, wasn't the goalpost over here a second ago?

Explain where the goalpost has shifted, I have been very consistent throughout.

So not actual Gors then? Poor Half-horn is lonely in space.

 Formosa wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Wait, wasn't the goalpost over here a second ago?

Explain where the goalpost has shifted, I have been very consistent throughout.

Well, my headcanon (equally valid as yours) is that the vindicators, assault marines, tactical marines, dreadnoughts, predators and all other units not specifically unique to blood angels are "generic units" and not blood angels at all.

Dammit, if I wanted to play generic space marines I would have bought codex: Space marines! Why are blood angels limited only to death company, sanguinary guard, furioso dreads, librarian dreads, death company dreads and a few named characters who don't count because, hello, not EVERYONE wants to structure their blood angels army around one specific named dude! Who are these rhino drivers and land raider drivers and assault marines who don't even have "blood angels" in their name and what are they doing in the army? I'd like the fluff to explain that!

lets see, what do you get when you google "thousand sons rhino"?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3917/15390811602_5e4f160ef1.jpg

Oh look at that, it's a rubric in the gunner's seat there, I wonder how they managed that highly complex conversion.

 Formosa wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
except, you know what was easier?

Using miniatures that had already invested into to give them new units rather than investing in new miniatures.

The reason GW does or does not do anything related to new minis is not because "writing the rules would be sooooo hardddddd" its' because new rules require (now) new miniatures, and new miniatures are a significant investment/risk...unless you have already released and started to pay off the molds by releasing them for another game. This kind of a release is essentially a freebie whenever they can do it.

if you really think GW is too stoopid to write rules for a psychic dreadnought I'd point you at the 55,628,456 different variant dreadnoughts with rules available in the game and through forgeworld.

No your right, it is easier to invest in miniatures they already have, we already have rubrics, we dont NEED new models for the heavy weapon of special weapon teams, they already exist, we would just need to buy more boxes like we always have, like with old devastators and wanting 4 lascannon (think the new ones dont even have that), so it would be a net gain for them, just give us the options and we can do the rest and they make money, if a 3rd party comes in offering weapons .... oh wait, they already do..... so GW isnt actually gaining anything by not making the unit option, nor are they in fact losing anything.

And the dread example isnt a good one to be honest, since the models already exist and just need porting over from 30k, which I hope they do, then bam! we have a psy dread that fits nicely into the Tsons and I would be happier, the hellbrute doesnt really fit aesthetically to me (other people may think differently) with Tsons, same with the other FW dread variants save the Big Deamon one (forget its name), that seems to fit.

You simply have to get over it my friend. No amount of salt will get GW to drop the NMNR ideology they have. Nothing. You are simply wasting effort.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Wait, wasn't the goalpost over here a second ago?

Explain where the goalpost has shifted, I have been very consistent throughout.

Well, my headcanon (equally valid as yours) is that the vindicators, assault marines, tactical marines, dreadnoughts, predators and all other units not specifically unique to blood angels are "generic units" and not blood angels at all.

Dammit, if I wanted to play generic space marines I would have bought codex: Space marines! Why are blood angels limited only to death company, sanguinary guard, furioso dreads, librarian dreads, death company dreads and a few named characters who don't count because, hello, not EVERYONE wants to structure their blood angels army around one specific named dude! Who are these rhino drivers and land raider drivers and assault marines who don't even have "blood angels" in their name and what are they doing in the army? I'd like the fluff to explain that!

lets see, what do you get when you google "thousand sons rhino"?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3917/15390811602_5e4f160ef1.jpg

Oh look at that, it's a rubric in the gunner's seat there, I wonder how they managed that highly complex conversion.

Wow what nonsense are you talking?

Blood angels didnt turn there entire legion into rubrics, context matters here, so if you are going down the hyperbole route at least pick a good one

So yes its a valid question to ask where are all the drivers coming from, its also equally as valid to point out that all the vehicles etc. are not unique to Tsons and not considered when talking about Tsons units, now back in the day when these vehicles could take legion specific upgrades, yeah I would look at them and say "thats an emperors children Rhino, it has sonic blasters instead of bolters and that siren upgrade thingy", these days a Word bearers Rhino is no different than a world eaters one, the only difference with Tsons is that all the crews would have been turned into Rubrics, so I wonder who drives the vehicles and would like a little blurb to explain it, now IF the Osiron dread turns up and is a psyker dread, or they gave the contemptor all is dust, I would look at it differently.

As for moving goal posts, its not moving goal posts to wonder about something completely different from the conversion I was having, who pilots the vehicles doesnt really impact on the "I would like more types of Rubrics" conversation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Table wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
except, you know what was easier?

Using miniatures that had already invested into to give them new units rather than investing in new miniatures.

The reason GW does or does not do anything related to new minis is not because "writing the rules would be sooooo hardddddd" its' because new rules require (now) new miniatures, and new miniatures are a significant investment/risk...unless you have already released and started to pay off the molds by releasing them for another game. This kind of a release is essentially a freebie whenever they can do it.

if you really think GW is too stoopid to write rules for a psychic dreadnought I'd point you at the 55,628,456 different variant dreadnoughts with rules available in the game and through forgeworld.

No your right, it is easier to invest in miniatures they already have, we already have rubrics, we dont NEED new models for the heavy weapon of special weapon teams, they already exist, we would just need to buy more boxes like we always have, like with old devastators and wanting 4 lascannon (think the new ones dont even have that), so it would be a net gain for them, just give us the options and we can do the rest and they make money, if a 3rd party comes in offering weapons .... oh wait, they already do..... so GW isnt actually gaining anything by not making the unit option, nor are they in fact losing anything.

And the dread example isnt a good one to be honest, since the models already exist and just need porting over from 30k, which I hope they do, then bam! we have a psy dread that fits nicely into the Tsons and I would be happier, the hellbrute doesnt really fit aesthetically to me (other people may think differently) with Tsons, same with the other FW dread variants save the Big Deamon one (forget its name), that seems to fit.

You simply have to get over it my friend. No amount of salt will get GW to drop the NMNR ideology they have. Nothing. You are simply wasting effort.

Your right, but no I wont get over it, it will directly impact my buying thats all, I would own a Primaris army by now if not for that policy, but the lack of options and customisation, my 2nd favourite part of the hobby (after the fluff), has effectively killed my interest in that army for the time being, I can lament the lack of cohesion in our hobby but there is nothing I can really do to pull people together in enough numbers, plus geeks (us) are notoriously hard to pull together regardless of there particular interest, we are a loud and obnoxious bunch

 Formosa wrote:

So yes its a valid question to ask where are all the drivers coming from, its also equally as valid to point out that all the vehicles etc. are not unique to Tsons and not considered when talking about Tsons units, now back in the day when these vehicles could take legion specific upgrades, yeah I would look at them and say "thats an emperors children Rhino, it has sonic blasters instead of bolters and that siren upgrade thingy", these days a Word bearers Rhino is no different than a world eaters one, the only difference with Tsons is that all the crews would have been turned into Rubrics, so I wonder who drives the vehicles and would like a little blurb to explain it, now IF the Osiron dread turns up and is a psyker dread, or they gave the contemptor all is dust, I would look at it differently.

Sure, the driver thing is a valid question, but that the vehicles don't have unique rules is completely moot point, that's how it is for almost all factions. Ultramarine Rhino is no different from Dark Angels Rhino. But claiming that a Dark Angels Rhino is not really a Dark Angels unit would be completely crazy.

 Crimson wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

So yes its a valid question to ask where are all the drivers coming from, its also equally as valid to point out that all the vehicles etc. are not unique to Tsons and not considered when talking about Tsons units, now back in the day when these vehicles could take legion specific upgrades, yeah I would look at them and say "thats an emperors children Rhino, it has sonic blasters instead of bolters and that siren upgrade thingy", these days a Word bearers Rhino is no different than a world eaters one, the only difference with Tsons is that all the crews would have been turned into Rubrics, so I wonder who drives the vehicles and would like a little blurb to explain it, now IF the Osiron dread turns up and is a psyker dread, or they gave the contemptor all is dust, I would look at it differently.

Sure, the driver thing is a valid question, but that the vehicles don't have unique rules is completely moot point, that's how it is for almost all factions. Ultramarine Rhino is no different from Dark Angels Rhino. But claiming that a Dark Angels Rhino is not really a Dark Angels unit would be completely crazy.

Nah, I am saying its not a unique dark angels unit, so not considered when I talk about dark angels units themselves, Deathwing Knights are a unique dark angels unit, terminators are not, but the Deathwing rule makes them a unique DW unit, so by the same extension if they gave all is dust to a Contemptor, then I would consider it a unique Tsons unit, see what I am saying or am I not explaining it properly?

 Formosa wrote:

Nah, I am saying its not a unique dark angels unit, so not considered when I talk about dark angels units themselves, Deathwing Knights are a unique dark angels unit, terminators are not, but the Deathwing rule makes them a unique DW unit, so by the same extension if they gave all is dust to a Contemptor, then I would consider it a unique Tsons unit, see what I am saying or am I not explaining it properly?

Yes you are, but having some shared units is just how it is and it is not weird or a problem. Not every unit needs to be unique. Also, I'm not sure that rublic dread would need 'all is dust'. That rule presumably represents the fact that the rubrics really don't have normal body, and thus are more resilient to smaller injuries that might cripple a living person. But most of the dreadnought is mechanical, so it really doesn't become markedly more resilient whether there is some dust or small lump of flesh inside it. The resilience of the mechanical body is already reflected in the stats. Though dreads will be affected by Legion tactics, so presumably TS dreads will get something extra.

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Again with this Fasle Equivalency stuff.

No one is saying no Tzaangors allowed. We just want more Rubric options then Tzaangors as options. We want the focus to be on Rubrics with Tzaangors filling a couple holes. After this codex drops we are going to have more Tzaangors then Rubrics as options. If no one knew anything about this game and you showed them a TS army they would think the TS units are the support units and the bird men are the real army.

If we were getting another Rubric focused HQ and EITHER a heavy support, or a fast attack Rubric unit, I would be all about this release. I can deal with 50-50. Not getting anything on the Rubric side and getting 3 on the Tzaangor side means I have an Army of Tzaangors supported by Rubrics.

Watch this mutalith is just another kit they already had. Why couldn't they male a Sorc Drednaught? Makes perfect sence. Dying legion that needs to get the most milage out of its members uses tech to extend the existance of the few member it has, right? No lets cram a pleb no-name CSM (which we don't have access to btw) into this metal hunk, whats that put a psyker in there? Na that would be effective amd deady we dont want that.

There's no false equivalency, there's pointing out that your arguments make no sense. There's a large difference between being disappointed that you didn't get the new models that you were hoping for and declaring that the entire faction is ruined forever because you got new, optional units that you like, but didn't get the new models you wanted.

Wanting more Rubric option seems to go completely against the fluff to me, at least until they let Ahriman succeed in his quest. They're a "legion" in name only with such a small handful of living members that the only reason they're still a thing is plot armour. We've had the thing that it's Sorcs and Rubricae only for decades and there's been nothing to change that in the fluff, so yeah, to me, it seems that you're wanting to break the fluff for the sake of new kits. Did the Sons desperately need in-faction anit tank and fast attacks choices? Yes, they were woefully inable to deal with these threats previously (though Traitor Legions did make them playable again, albeit in a very rigid monobuild IMHO).

As for the mix of Sons and not Sons, well, you've got Sorc/Exalted, Rubricae and Scarabs on one side and Tzaangors, Skyfires and the Mutalith on the other, so unless I've missed something, they're at 50/50? And again, really, with the numbers of the Sons, any "army" they field should be mainly fodder since the rubricae are bodyguards and the sorcs aren't to be thrown away. If that fodder comes in the form of Daemons, Tzaangors, Cultist or Traitor Guard should make little difference.

A Sorc dread wouldn't be out of the question, but it also wouldn't be overly consistant with established dreadnaught fluff either. IIRC, the "pilots" go a little loopy after a while which is why the loyalist ones hibernate until they're needed while the spikey ones are chained down and they're more "unleashed" rather than "deployed". Not sure how well a crazy psychic dread would go, and that's before you've even gone into the question of why there'd be any dreads in the first place since they can probably biomancy themselves back together good as new and if they can't (or one of their allies can't/won't, then there's probably not enough left to stuff into a dread either. And then you'd question just how the other schemers would view one of their peers suddenly getting a dreadnaught for a body, and then on top of that, you'd need to question if the whole process would weaken their will enough for the flesh change to take hold and make it all pointless. Again, feels like ignoring fluff for wanting shiny new things. As for normal Dreads, I just assumed that they were either rubric'ed dreads from back in the day or they just grabbed a survivor from a raid and stuffed them into a dread shell and called it a day.

Formosa wrote:3: again your examples completely miss the point, not the mention are completely wrong, a grot IS and orkoid, a scout IS a space marine, a Tzaangor is literally not a Thousand son, a pox walkers IS LITERALLY not a Death Guard, what is so hard for you to grasp with this, adding the keyword doesnt suddenly make them Rubrics, it doesnt suddenly make the Space Marines, so when I have repeatedly asked for more Thousand sons, the stupid people on here have said "derp, Tzaangors are Thousand sons Derp derp", and I have said repeatedly they are not, because they are not, they are an Aux force that work with the Thousand sons, NOT THOUSAND SONS, just emphasising that point, like guard can work with space marines, but that doesnt make them ultramarines or space marines.....

It's hard to grasp that you can't seem to understand that just because it's part of the army, doesn't mean it has to be exactly the same as everything else. What about Kroot or Vespid? Should they not be in the Tau army because they're not Tau? Keywords are just a rules thing, they're not the be-all-end-all defining trait of a model. It's something that allows them to be taken in a sons army while allowing various effects to still work. If they'd left it out, people would be screaming bloody murder that the new unit could make use of the various buffs the rest of the army could. Would it be better if they had the Tzaangor Keyword instead of Heretic Astartes and then they went through and modified every instance that says you can only cast powers/uses abilities/utilise stratagems on Heretic Astartes units to add (or Tzaangor Keyword units if you're using Thousand SOns powers/abilities/stratagems)? Would it really make a difference?

Formosa wrote:4: if what you say is true they would not be able to fight in CC, shoot moving targets (which requires a hell of a lot more dexterity than people are giving them credit for) etc. so no, I stand by that fact that there is no credible fluff reason for lack of weapons options, while there is an option of just taking marines, that leaves the book extremely empty, the gors should have been added in addition to a slight expansion of the marine part of the book, not instead of it, either way I will get what I want from this book, I will create my own Tsons units for non matched play and expand the list myself, it will be very easy, which is yet another reason GW should have done it, because it was very easy to do.

I don't know about you, but my Rubricae never could fight in melee or shoot anything on TT, so that seems like good story/gameplay continuity. I struggle to think of a mechanical reason why you couldn't give 'em any old weapon you wanted within reason, but at the end of the day, they're adhereing to the mindless-golem-servant-to-wizard-master trope with the usual 40k twist to it, but that's the way it's been written and they've chosen to stick with it rather than retcon it, for good (I think it gives them a more distinct feel compared to the copy-paste of the other spikey boyz) or ill (you clearly want havok equivalents).

If you have a group that will allow you to use homebrew, great, I hope you find a good balance and have many enjoyable games.

Formosa wrote:No your right, it is easier to invest in miniatures they already have, we already have rubrics, we dont NEED new models for the heavy weapon of special weapon teams, they already exist, we would just need to buy more boxes like we always have, like with old devastators and wanting 4 lascannon (think the new ones dont even have that), so it would be a net gain for them, just give us the options and we can do the rest and they make money, if a 3rd party comes in offering weapons .... oh wait, they already do..... so GW isnt actually gaining anything by not making the unit option, nor are they in fact losing anything.

And the dread example isnt a good one to be honest, since the models already exist and just need porting over from 30k, which I hope they do, then bam! we have a psy dread that fits nicely into the Tsons and I would be happier, the hellbrute doesnt really fit aesthetically to me (other people may think differently) with Tsons, same with the other FW dread variants save the Big Deamon one (forget its name), that seems to fit.

IIRC, the new Dev kit has 2 of each heavy weapon and if you don't like the Helbrute as an aesthetic fit for the Sons (completely agree here), buy a loyalist dread and file the Imperial iconography off. It's what I did for my Iron Warriors. Alternatively, you could just buy the Osiron or Sons 'temptor and counts as a normal dread.

Formosa wrote:Well said, the only reason I keep coming back to this is because some keep dismissing that all we want is more options, we won't get them for a long time if at all, but there is nothing wrong with wanting more units/options.

Where do you draw the line at cool new toys vs going against the fluff though?

the_scotsman wrote:Wouldn't be surprised as index tsons can't take a Lord at all, and none of the HQs have the Dust rule...because theyre not made of dust.

The Exalted Sorc is our Lord equivalent and it makes sense as anyone without strong enough psy powers was dusted by the Rubric and given that, there'd be no all-fighty-no-mind-bullets type character left, but there is/was marines who were melee focused and also powerful psychers.

I personally pictured my 1000 Sons vehicles being piloted by Tzangoors. Even thought about making some Tzangoor turret toppers with some upper torsos and hatch rings.

I have a 1000 sons themed predator with flaming braziers on the smoke stacks and inferno bolters in place of the turret gun. I did not put a Tzangoor or Rubric upper torso on it but have the spare parts to do so.

i pictured deamon engines mostly in my army but the Tzangoors infantry can certainly have a junkyard rhino to decorate.

 Crimson wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Nah, I am saying its not a unique dark angels unit, so not considered when I talk about dark angels units themselves, Deathwing Knights are a unique dark angels unit, terminators are not, but the Deathwing rule makes them a unique DW unit, so by the same extension if they gave all is dust to a Contemptor, then I would consider it a unique Tsons unit, see what I am saying or am I not explaining it properly?

Yes you are, but having some shared units is just how it is and it is not weird or a problem. Not every unit needs to be unique. Also, I'm not sure that rublic dread would need 'all is dust'. That rule presumably represents the fact that the rubrics really don't have normal body, and thus are more resilient to smaller injuries that might cripple a living person. But most of the dreadnought is mechanical, so it really doesn't become markedly more resilient whether there is some dust or small lump of flesh inside it. The resilience of the mechanical body is already reflected in the stats. Though dreads will be affected by Legion tactics, so presumably TS dreads will get something extra.

Cool cool, I'm not asking for all is dust by the way, it was just an example, if theTsons rule does affect dreads it kind of gets me wondering what that rule could be to actually be useful


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skerr wrote:
I personally pictured my 1000 Sons vehicles being piloted by Tzangoors. Even thought about making some Tzangoor turret toppers with some upper torsos and hatch rings.

I have a 1000 sons themed predator with flaming braziers on the smoke stacks and inferno bolters in place of the turret gun. I did not put a Tzangoor or Rubric upper torso on it but have the spare parts to do so.

i pictured deamon engines mostly in my army but the Tzangoors infantry can certainly have a junkyard rhino to decorate.

That actually sounds cool, and I could see thousand sons using gors for that, doubt would like the idea but when you dont have the numbers, needs must!

 Drasius wrote:

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Again with this Fasle Equivalency stuff.

No one is saying no Tzaangors allowed. We just want more Rubric options then Tzaangors as options. We want the focus to be on Rubrics with Tzaangors filling a couple holes. After this codex drops we are going to have more Tzaangors then Rubrics as options. If no one knew anything about this game and you showed them a TS army they would think the TS units are the support units and the bird men are the real army.

If we were getting another Rubric focused HQ and EITHER a heavy support, or a fast attack Rubric unit, I would be all about this release. I can deal with 50-50. Not getting anything on the Rubric side and getting 3 on the Tzaangor side means I have an Army of Tzaangors supported by Rubrics.

Watch this mutalith is just another kit they already had. Why couldn't they male a Sorc Drednaught? Makes perfect sence. Dying legion that needs to get the most milage out of its members uses tech to extend the existance of the few member it has, right? No lets cram a pleb no-name CSM (which we don't have access to btw) into this metal hunk, whats that put a psyker in there? Na that would be effective amd deady we dont want that.

There's no false equivalency, there's pointing out that your arguments make no sense. There's a large difference between being disappointed that you didn't get the new models that you were hoping for and declaring that the entire faction is ruined forever because you got new, optional units that you like, but didn't get the new models you wanted.

Wanting more Rubric option seems to go completely against the fluff to me, at least until they let Ahriman succeed in his quest. They're a "legion" in name only with such a small handful of living members that the only reason they're still a thing is plot armour. We've had the thing that it's Sorcs and Rubricae only for decades and there's been nothing to change that in the fluff, so yeah, to me, it seems that you're wanting to break the fluff for the sake of new kits. Did the Sons desperately need in-faction anit tank and fast attacks choices? Yes, they were woefully inable to deal with these threats previously (though Traitor Legions did make them playable again, albeit in a very rigid monobuild IMHO).

As for the mix of Sons and not Sons, well, you've got Sorc/Exalted, Rubricae and Scarabs on one side and Tzaangors, Skyfires and the Mutalith on the other, so unless I've missed something, they're at 50/50? And again, really, with the numbers of the Sons, any "army" they field should be mainly fodder since the rubricae are bodyguards and the sorcs aren't to be thrown away. If that fodder comes in the form of Daemons, Tzaangors, Cultist or Traitor Guard should make little difference.

A Sorc dread wouldn't be out of the question, but it also wouldn't be overly consistant with established dreadnaught fluff either. IIRC, the "pilots" go a little loopy after a while which is why the loyalist ones hibernate until they're needed while the spikey ones are chained down and they're more "unleashed" rather than "deployed". Not sure how well a crazy psychic dread would go, and that's before you've even gone into the question of why there'd be any dreads in the first place since they can probably biomancy themselves back together good as new and if they can't (or one of their allies can't/won't, then there's probably not enough left to stuff into a dread either. And then you'd question just how the other schemers would view one of their peers suddenly getting a dreadnaught for a body, and then on top of that, you'd need to question if the whole process would weaken their will enough for the flesh change to take hold and make it all pointless. Again, feels like ignoring fluff for wanting shiny new things. As for normal Dreads, I just assumed that they were either rubric'ed dreads from back in the day or they just grabbed a survivor from a raid and stuffed them into a dread shell and called it a day.

Formosa wrote:3: again your examples completely miss the point, not the mention are completely wrong, a grot IS and orkoid, a scout IS a space marine, a Tzaangor is literally not a Thousand son, a pox walkers IS LITERALLY not a Death Guard, what is so hard for you to grasp with this, adding the keyword doesnt suddenly make them Rubrics, it doesnt suddenly make the Space Marines, so when I have repeatedly asked for more Thousand sons, the stupid people on here have said "derp, Tzaangors are Thousand sons Derp derp", and I have said repeatedly they are not, because they are not, they are an Aux force that work with the Thousand sons, NOT THOUSAND SONS, just emphasising that point, like guard can work with space marines, but that doesnt make them ultramarines or space marines.....

It's hard to grasp that you can't seem to understand that just because it's part of the army, doesn't mean it has to be exactly the same as everything else. What about Kroot or Vespid? Should they not be in the Tau army because they're not Tau? Keywords are just a rules thing, they're not the be-all-end-all defining trait of a model. It's something that allows them to be taken in a sons army while allowing various effects to still work. If they'd left it out, people would be screaming bloody murder that the new unit could make use of the various buffs the rest of the army could. Would it be better if they had the Tzaangor Keyword instead of Heretic Astartes and then they went through and modified every instance that says you can only cast powers/uses abilities/utilise stratagems on Heretic Astartes units to add (or Tzaangor Keyword units if you're using Thousand SOns powers/abilities/stratagems)? Would it really make a difference?

Formosa wrote:4: if what you say is true they would not be able to fight in CC, shoot moving targets (which requires a hell of a lot more dexterity than people are giving them credit for) etc. so no, I stand by that fact that there is no credible fluff reason for lack of weapons options, while there is an option of just taking marines, that leaves the book extremely empty, the gors should have been added in addition to a slight expansion of the marine part of the book, not instead of it, either way I will get what I want from this book, I will create my own Tsons units for non matched play and expand the list myself, it will be very easy, which is yet another reason GW should have done it, because it was very easy to do.

I don't know about you, but my Rubricae never could fight in melee or shoot anything on TT, so that seems like good story/gameplay continuity. I struggle to think of a mechanical reason why you couldn't give 'em any old weapon you wanted within reason, but at the end of the day, they're adhereing to the mindless-golem-servant-to-wizard-master trope with the usual 40k twist to it, but that's the way it's been written and they've chosen to stick with it rather than retcon it, for good (I think it gives them a more distinct feel compared to the copy-paste of the other spikey boyz) or ill (you clearly want havok equivalents).

If you have a group that will allow you to use homebrew, great, I hope you find a good balance and have many enjoyable games.

Formosa wrote:No your right, it is easier to invest in miniatures they already have, we already have rubrics, we dont NEED new models for the heavy weapon of special weapon teams, they already exist, we would just need to buy more boxes like we always have, like with old devastators and wanting 4 lascannon (think the new ones dont even have that), so it would be a net gain for them, just give us the options and we can do the rest and they make money, if a 3rd party comes in offering weapons .... oh wait, they already do..... so GW isnt actually gaining anything by not making the unit option, nor are they in fact losing anything.

And the dread example isnt a good one to be honest, since the models already exist and just need porting over from 30k, which I hope they do, then bam! we have a psy dread that fits nicely into the Tsons and I would be happier, the hellbrute doesnt really fit aesthetically to me (other people may think differently) with Tsons, same with the other FW dread variants save the Big Deamon one (forget its name), that seems to fit.

IIRC, the new Dev kit has 2 of each heavy weapon and if you don't like the Helbrute as an aesthetic fit for the Sons (completely agree here), buy a loyalist dread and file the Imperial iconography off. It's what I did for my Iron Warriors. Alternatively, you could just buy the Osiron or Sons 'temptor and counts as a normal dread.

Formosa wrote:Well said, the only reason I keep coming back to this is because some keep dismissing that all we want is more options, we won't get them for a long time if at all, but there is nothing wrong with wanting more units/options.

Where do you draw the line at cool new toys vs going against the fluff though?

the_scotsman wrote:Wouldn't be surprised as index tsons can't take a Lord at all, and none of the HQs have the Dust rule...because theyre not made of dust.

The Exalted Sorc is our Lord equivalent and it makes sense as anyone without strong enough psy powers was dusted by the Rubric and given that, there'd be no all-fighty-no-mind-bullets type character left, but there is/was marines who were melee focused and also powerful psychers.

Not all chaos dreads go loopy, there was even an Iron Warriors warsmith dread in the fluff, so its not completely out of question, I would see Osirons being mega mega rare though, I agree that the hellbrute doesnt fit the Aesthetic but thankfully we have the angry washing machine Tsons dread to fill that gap.

As for the Tzaangors, yep they are part of the army as they should be, people just were not getting that they are not Tsons, they thought I was saying they are not Tsons and as such should not be in the book, which was wrong, and yeah I want Havocs or special weapon squads because it seems to fit the theme of Tsons more than any other legion bar maybe word bearers or Iron Warriors.

New toys vs the fluff, thats the thing, it fits the fluff, the real disconnect comes from not having the basics in the army, its something that needs a little explaining across the entire chaos range, the Black Legion novel kind of explained it a little bit, but as always the desire to know more kicks in.

 Drasius wrote:
There's no false equivalency, there's pointing out that your arguments make no sense. There's a large difference between being disappointed that you didn't get the new models that you were hoping for and declaring that the entire faction is ruined forever because you got new, optional units that you like, but didn't get the new models you wanted.

Never said the Army was ruined, said they were dead, read the title, and they are, they WERE an army which focused on bringing Automatons to win fights, and now they are going to be an army with a few automatons to support the Warflocks of Tzeentch, they should have called this codex Tzeentch Non-Daemonkin, not Thousand Sons. Glad to see you agree with me though.

 Drasius wrote:
Wanting more Rubric option seems to go completely against the fluff to me, at least until they let Ahriman succeed in his quest. They're a "legion" in name only with such a small handful of living members that the only reason they're still a thing is plot armour. We've had the thing that it's Sorcs and Rubricae only for decades and there's been nothing to change that in the fluff, so yeah, to me, it seems that you're wanting to break the fluff for the sake of new kits. Did the Sons desperately need in-faction anit tank and fast attacks choices? Yes, they were woefully inable to deal with these threats previously (though Traitor Legions did make them playable again, albeit in a very rigid monobuild IMHO).

If they are a legion in name only why not get rid of them as a Legion? Plot armor is not a reason to keep something like that around, they could keep them in the fluff and squat the army. There not popular at all since GW is unwilling to spend money on new models for them.

Yet there are other places where we violate the fluff, Like with Hellbrutes (no CSM to put in them), Daemon Engines in general (no access to warp smiths to build them), Vehicles which are supposed to be piloted by CSMs (again no access). If we went by fluff we would have Access to CSM and Warp Smiths we don't why not? That or we don't get Daemon Engines, Vehicles, no Helbrutes, we would have a 9 unit army which had almost as many spawn entries as TS entries.

 Drasius wrote:
As for the mix of Sons and not Sons, well, you've got Sorc/Exalted, Rubricae and Scarabs on one side and Tzaangors, Skyfires and the Mutalith on the other, so unless I've missed something, they're at 50/50? And again, really, with the numbers of the Sons, any "army" they field should be mainly fodder since the rubricae are bodyguards and the sorcs aren't to be thrown away. If that fodder comes in the form of Daemons, Tzaangors, Cultist or Traitor Guard should make little difference.

Shaman, Enlightened, and Mutalith were announced on the Community page, Skyfires were confirmed on FB, assuming they do the logical thing and have all 3 new Tzaangor units access to Discs (which also breaks the fluff of Disks of Tzeentch being an Honored gift and being rare but hey it's what you want). This means we have a 4 to 3 ratio of Tzaangors and we will now have 2 variations of Spawn maybe we can get a flying version and an HQ Spawn you know more TS units.

 Drasius wrote:
A Sorc dread wouldn't be out of the question, but it also wouldn't be overly consistant with established dreadnaught fluff either. IIRC, the "pilots" go a little loopy after a while which is why the loyalist ones hibernate until they're needed while the spikey ones are chained down and they're more "unleashed" rather than "deployed". Not sure how well a crazy psychic dread would go, and that's before you've even gone into the question of why there'd be any dreads in the first place since they can probably biomancy themselves back together good as new and if they can't (or one of their allies can't/won't, then there's probably not enough left to stuff into a dread either. And then you'd question just how the other schemers would view one of their peers suddenly getting a dreadnaught for a body, and then on top of that, you'd need to question if the whole process would weaken their will enough for the flesh change to take hold and make it all pointless. Again, feels like ignoring fluff for wanting shiny new things. As for normal Dreads, I just assumed that they were either rubric'ed dreads from back in the day or they just grabbed a survivor from a raid and stuffed them into a dread shell and called it a day.

Of course you could, but here are a bunch of reasons why it makes no sense, Everything you said can be applied to SM and Libby dreads, why does the group that hates and tries to destroy psykers in all their forms, except the ones they think are okay, but even those are shunned. Which means OBJECTIVLY you are much more likely to have a Chaos Sorc Dread (Especially from a dying Legion) then a Libby Dread, or what do you think their SM brothers would think when that fething abomination gets put in a damn Dread.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Never said the Army was ruined, said they were dead, read the title, and they are, they WERE an army which focused on bringing Automatons to win fights, and now they are going to be an army with a few automatons to support the Warflocks of Tzeentch, they should have called this codex Tzeentch Non-Daemonkin, not Thousand Sons. Glad to see you agree with me though.

I don't agree with you at all. Unless GW badly mangles the points, this will be the most viable the Sons have been in decades, possibly ever. Even beyond that, you can still take Sorcs/Rubricae/Scarabs, nobody is forcing you to take non-marine units so you can focus your army on the dustbins if you so choose. Given the surety of your statement, you should be posting in the news and ruours thread since you've clearly got an early copy of the 'dex if you KNOW it's going to be so heavily biased towards the non-marine units.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
If they are a legion in name only why not get rid of them as a Legion? Plot armor is not a reason to keep something like that around, they could keep them in the fluff and squat the army. There not popular at all since GW is unwilling to spend money on new models for them.

Because the Sons are one of the perennial favourites of the 10 billion "which legion is your favourite" polls that have been held on the various 40k forums for years and there would be a riot if they tried? Not willing to spend money? We got 3 new sorcs (and a load of bits to make dozens of variations), a new Ahriman (on disk!) and he got his own trilogy and an assortment of short stories, redone Rubricae, our own termies, a freakin' primarch (all of which are fantastic models) and you say that GW doesn't want to spend money on them? Just how high are you? Plot armour isn't a reason to keep 'em, but their popularity and their suitability for making good villians definately is.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Yet there are other places where we violate the fluff, Like with Hellbrutes (no CSM to put in them), Daemon Engines in general (no access to warp smiths to build them), Vehicles which are supposed to be piloted by CSMs (again no access). If we went by fluff we would have Access to CSM and Warp Smiths we don't why not? That or we don't get Daemon Engines, Vehicles, no Helbrutes, we would have a 9 unit army which had almost as many spawn entries as TS entries.

Dreads could be pre-rubric and were dusted into it permanantly or even have been stolen salvaged from other legions/chapters via sorcery, the daemon engines can be traded with other forces on the unlikely chance that you can't make your own mechanical shell and have your various sorcs bind daemons into them and Vehicles can be piloted by anyone, they don't have to be marines, they could be daeamonically possessed or you can have pre-rubric vehicles that had their drivers dusted into their compartment. Given the fluff from the heresy, there were relatively few TS techmarines and those they did have probably got offed in the scuffle on Prospero. When your legion gets cut down from tens of thousands to ~1500 and then cut even further by the rubric, you're not going to have many specialists left, even less than you'd expect since the "normies" all got dusted and only the stronger psychers (who probably weren't techmarines or chaplains and such) remain, yeah, it's not super likely for you to have any techmarines left. Sure, you'll have some of the order of ruin, but I'd say much of it was replaced by sorcery and the stuff that wasn't probably got farmed out to the dark mechanicum.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Shaman, Enlightened, and Mutalith were announced on the Community page, Skyfires were confirmed on FB, assuming they do the logical thing and have all 3 new Tzaangor units access to Discs (which also breaks the fluff of Disks of Tzeentch being an Honored gift and being rare but hey it's what you want). This means we have a 4 to 3 ratio of Tzaangors and we will now have 2 variations of Spawn maybe we can get a flying version and an HQ Spawn you know more TS units.

So, you're assuming what we're going to get and complaining that the sky is falling about stuff that might not happen? Also, I never said I wanted disks to be common.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Of course you could, but here are a bunch of reasons why it makes no sense, Everything you said can be applied to SM and Libby dreads, why does the group that hates and tries to destroy psykers in all their forms, except the ones they think are okay, but even those are shunned. Which means OBJECTIVLY you are much more likely to have a Chaos Sorc Dread (Especially from a dying Legion) then a Libby Dread, or what do you think their SM brothers would think when that fething abomination gets put in a damn Dread.

Except the bit where the chaos marines don't have the same views on serving their chapter and if you put someone in a giant unstoppable killing machine that's nigh invulnerable to anything short of anti-tank weapons, especially if it has retained it's psycher abilities, it's not going to let you keep bossing it around. Therefore anyone in command isn't going to let their position as chief arse-kicker be taken by a near dead psycher. IIRC, the Sons were the ones who figured out how to preserve the ability of psychers to continue to cast their space magic after they'd been stuffed into a dread and shared it with all the other legions, but only the BA really thought it was a good idea. It's definately not out of the question that the Sons simply can't replicate that anymore now that the majority of their legion and support staff have been busy being dead for the last 10,000 years. The loyalists probably also don't have the ability to heal themselves and others from "He's-dead-Jim" back to "good-as-new" status with psychery and witchcraft like the biomancers of the Thousand Sons do either, so, again, another reason why it's fairly unlikely for them to have psychernaughts.

Don't get me wrong, I think a psychic dread would be cool, and sometimes that's all the justification you need, but you can't ignore that there are a bunch of fluff reasons that say why it hasn't happened. Yes, you can totally re-write the fluff and retcon stuff away, but everytime you do, you're losing something of their identity. Having the same toys as other legions/chapters doesn't give them something special or expand their identity away from spiky marines, it goes the opposite way. The Sons have always been the most different from the other legions, I just don't see why you want to make them the same when we have interesting, fluffy choices for the first time in forever. I used to hate seeing people posting about their "Thousand Son list" with 1 squad of 5 rubricae and then filled with stuff like oblits, raptors and bikers, but I could understand why they did it because the Sons couldn't remain fluffy and have in codex FA or non-vehicle HS choices. Now we can and I'd really encourage you to at least wait until we have some solid info from the leaks before deciding that the Sons are "dead". What if rubricae are 15 ppm, they get regular smite and everyone always re-rolls perils with a 1CP stratagem for +1 to wound for all bolt weapons? Would they still be "dead"?

Edit: Missed a Quote tag

craggy wrote:
I've tried reading some of this thread, but I'll admit the arguing from both sides made it difficult to grasp, but can someone clear something up for me? There's a lot of talk about Gors, are Thousand Sons bringing Beastmen back to 40k? Because that'd be cool.

Otherwise, Tzaangors have been in Thousand Sons already, and with GW doing the smart cross-game daemons thing, it only makes sense that the other AOS units would get some rules. Hell, I'd like to see them bring units from other armies in AOS into 40k! Gimme some Duardin assault units for Tau or Guard, some feral Orks and a sprue of space guns added to a Stormcast box would have saved them tons on developing the Custodes army!

Yes there will be at least 4 Tzaangor units as of right now. 1 troops 1 Elite 1 FA and the Shaman is up in the air could be an HQ or could be an Elite slot. I say its gonna be a HQ so people that want all bird armies can do so.

My fingers are crossed that we see some clever use of already existing resources by GW. Here are some units that could do with being written into existance:

1) The Exalted Sorcerer kit is a goddamn work of art. It contains enough pieces to build very distinctive units. The Tzeentchy Bird Sorcerer would make a great model to base an elite off of. Then you have the daemonfire and the daemonfaced options. These could all easily be utilised to give us some different speed/buff/psyker/combat options for our sorcerers. It would be überfluffy too, as 1kSons is really all about their central cadre of powerful sorcerers, who are the reflection of a past glory. Get their rules right. Give us variety of builds/units to match the amazing variety of the model.

2) Tzaangor options; they come with shields, after all. Some tanky tzaangors would really fit the bill imo. Maybe also the option for one heavy CC weapon per 5 or 10 gors (i.e. those double-handed swords and axes). Realistically, our cheaper units (ie gors) are going to be in direct competition with the new Pink Horrors who are pretty amazing. They deepstrike, put out a shedload of chaff-clearing dice, and have a native 4++. I hope the Tzaangors offer enough punch and flexibility to pose a threat to their obvious gribbly competitor...

3) Osiron Dreadnought. Pretty straight forward really. It's an iconic model that would be very cool.

4) Castellax robots. Fast, punchy, cool looking - just what the Sons need in their roster. Using psychically-controlled automata suits the style and play of the Sons really well too.

5) Not a model per se, but some strong synergy with Tzeentch Daemons. Something like a 2CP strategy that allows you before the battle, if fielding a Lord of Change, to replace some or all of your aspiring sorcerers' mininsmites with actual powers. Or heralds affecting the strength of warpflamers. Or sorcerers with access to Tzeentch discipline powers (Mr. birdface the exalted sorcerer, for example).

All of this is possible and would be great news for the faction, without printing a single new model. A man can hope, eh?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

craggy wrote:
I've tried reading some of this thread, but I'll admit the arguing from both sides made it difficult to grasp, but can someone clear something up for me? There's a lot of talk about Gors, are Thousand Sons bringing Beastmen back to 40k? Because that'd be cool.

Otherwise, Tzaangors have been in Thousand Sons already, and with GW doing the smart cross-game daemons thing, it only makes sense that the other AOS units would get some rules. Hell, I'd like to see them bring units from other armies in AOS into 40k! Gimme some Duardin assault units for Tau or Guard, some feral Orks and a sprue of space guns added to a Stormcast box would have saved them tons on developing the Custodes army!

Yes there will be at least 4 Tzaangor units as of right now. 1 troops 1 Elite 1 FA and the Shaman is up in the air could be an HQ or could be an Elite slot. I say its gonna be a HQ so people that want all bird armies can do so.

this is good, it means you can do a all marine army, an all gor army or a mix of the both depending on what theme you want

grouchoben wrote:
My fingers are crossed that we see some clever use of already existing resources by GW. Here are some units that could do with being written into existance:

1) The Exalted Sorcerer kit is a goddamn work of art. It contains enough pieces to build very distinctive units. The Tzeentchy Bird Sorcerer would make a great model to base an elite off of. Then you have the daemonfire and the daemonfaced options. These could all easily be utilised to give us some different speed/buff/psyker/combat options for our sorcerers. It would be überfluffy too, as 1kSons is really all about their central cadre of powerful sorcerers, who are the reflection of a past glory. Get their rules right. Give us variety of builds/units to match the amazing variety of the model.

2) Tzaangor options; they come with shields, after all. Some tanky tzaangors would really fit the bill imo. Maybe also the option for one heavy CC weapon per 5 or 10 gors (i.e. those double-handed swords and axes). Realistically, our cheaper units (ie gors) are going to be in direct competition with the new Pink Horrors who are pretty amazing. They deepstrike, put out a shedload of chaff-clearing dice, and have a native 4++. I hope the Tzaangors offer enough punch and flexibility to pose a threat to their obvious gribbly competitor...

3) Osiron Dreadnought. Pretty straight forward really. It's an iconic model that would be very cool.

4) Castellax robots. Fast, punchy, cool looking - just what the Sons need in their roster. Using psychically-controlled automata suits the style and play of the Sons really well too.

5) Not a model per se, but some strong synergy with Tzeentch Daemons. Something like a 2CP strategy that allows you before the battle, if fielding a Lord of Change, to replace some or all of your aspiring sorcerers' mininsmites with actual powers. Or heralds affecting the strength of warpflamers. Or sorcerers with access to Tzeentch discipline powers (Mr. birdface the exalted sorcerer, for example).

All of this is possible and would be great news for the faction, without printing a single new model. A man can hope, eh?

I suspect the only one you might get is 2), and even then I think you'd be lucky. 3 & 4 are highly doubtful as there a fairly long history of GW not putting FW models in GW codecies. As for 1), also not very likely since a) tying model stats to specific modeling options is going to end with a bunch of issues and b ), IIRC, the sprue isn't something that you can easily seperate the various gubbins into individual packages, so if I'm understanding your idea right, it's also a non-starter. I can't claim to have followed the other dex releases, but I don't recall other dexes getting options for stratagems that rely on fielding models from a different codex, so, again, highly unlikely. So, yeah, you can hope, but as we should all know, hope is the road to disappointment.

 Drasius wrote:
tying model stats to specific modeling options is going to end with a bunch of issues and b ), IIRC, the sprue isn't something that you can easily seperate the various gubbins into individual packages, so if I'm understanding your idea right, it's also a non-starter.

Carnifex says "hi". Having special rule based on specific model in kit is mostly just case of packaging. Assuming special rule is tied to ONE part. If multiple issues comes if players have been mixing&matching bits but then again GW has history of saying "screw old models".

Good points, but the exalted kit does have clear thematic matches between its pieces - eg levitating, feathered, bird head, bird feet, winged pack = Tzerntch exalted, for example.

Fair point on FW codices.

Belakor in CD Codex has access to the heretic discipline, so I disagree there.

 Drasius wrote:

I don't agree with you at all. Unless GW badly mangles the points, this will be the most viable the Sons have been in decades, possibly ever. Even beyond that, you can still take Sorcs/Rubricae/Scarabs, nobody is forcing you to take non-marine units so you can focus your army on the dustbins if you so choose. Given the surety of your statement, you should be posting in the news and ruours thread since you've clearly got an early copy of the 'dex if you KNOW it's going to be so heavily biased towards the non-marine units.

Because the Sons are one of the perennial favourites of the 10 billion "which legion is your favourite" polls that have been held on the various 40k forums for years and there would be a riot if they tried? Not willing to spend money? We got 3 new sorcs (and a load of bits to make dozens of variations), a new Ahriman (on disk!) and he got his own trilogy and an assortment of short stories, redone Rubricae, our own termies, a freakin' primarch (all of which are fantastic models) and you say that GW doesn't want to spend money on them? Just how high are you? Plot armour isn't a reason to keep 'em, but their popularity and their suitability for making good villians definately is.

Dreads could be pre-rubric and were dusted into it permanantly or even have been stolen salvaged from other legions/chapters via sorcery, the daemon engines can be traded with other forces on the unlikely chance that you can't make your own mechanical shell and have your various sorcs bind daemons into them and Vehicles can be piloted by anyone, they don't have to be marines, they could be daeamonically possessed or you can have pre-rubric vehicles that had their drivers dusted into their compartment. Given the fluff from the heresy, there were relatively few TS techmarines and those they did have probably got offed in the scuffle on Prospero. When your legion gets cut down from tens of thousands to ~1500 and then cut even further by the rubric, you're not going to have many specialists left, even less than you'd expect since the "normies" all got dusted and only the stronger psychers (who probably weren't techmarines or chaplains and such) remain, yeah, it's not super likely for you to have any techmarines left. Sure, you'll have some of the order of ruin, but I'd say much of it was replaced by sorcery and the stuff that wasn't probably got farmed out to the dark mechanicum.

So, you're assuming what we're going to get and complaining that the sky is falling about stuff that might not happen? Also, I never said I wanted disks to be common.

Except the bit where the chaos marines don't have the same views on serving their chapter and if you put someone in a giant unstoppable killing machine that's nigh invulnerable to anything short of anti-tank weapons, especially if it has retained it's psycher abilities, it's not going to let you keep bossing it around. Therefore anyone in command isn't going to let their position as chief arse-kicker be taken by a near dead psycher. IIRC, the Sons were the ones who figured out how to preserve the ability of psychers to continue to cast their space magic after they'd been stuffed into a dread and shared it with all the other legions, but only the BA really thought it was a good idea. It's definately not out of the question that the Sons simply can't replicate that anymore now that the majority of their legion and support staff have been busy being dead for the last 10,000 years. The loyalists probably also don't have the ability to heal themselves and others from "He's-dead-Jim" back to "good-as-new" status with psychery and witchcraft like the biomancers of the Thousand Sons do either, so, again, another reason why it's fairly unlikely for them to have psychernaughts.

Don't get me wrong, I think a psychic dread would be cool, and sometimes that's all the justification you need, but you can't ignore that there are a bunch of fluff reasons that say why it hasn't happened. Yes, you can totally re-write the fluff and retcon stuff away, but everytime you do, you're losing something of their identity. Having the same toys as other legions/chapters doesn't give them something special or expand their identity away from spiky marines, it goes the opposite way. The Sons have always been the most different from the other legions, I just don't see why you want to make them the same when we have interesting, fluffy choices for the first time in forever. I used to hate seeing people posting about their "Thousand Son list" with 1 squad of 5 rubricae and then filled with stuff like oblits, raptors and bikers, but I could understand why they did it because the Sons couldn't remain fluffy and have in codex FA or non-vehicle HS choices. Now we can and I'd really encourage you to at least wait until we have some solid info from the leaks before deciding that the Sons are "dead". What if rubricae are 15 ppm, they get regular smite and everyone always re-rolls perils with a 1CP stratagem for +1 to wound for all bolt weapons? Would they still be "dead"?

You do agree the army you used to see on the table is dead. You wont see it any more. You wont see a bunch of rubrics on the table supported by a bunch of sorcerers. Now it will be 1 Rubric squad or 1 SOT squad supporting Tzaangors and Daemons,

How long did it take to get those kits? Just because it recently happened doesnt mean GW gives a gak. I beleive SM got 5 new SM kits in the time it took them to get 1 new kit if you include Primaris Marines.

I am not assuning what we are getting they announced what we are getting and I know we don't need more footslogging infantry. We need fast attack. Enlightened and Skyfires both have Discs in thier boxes its a logical conclusion, not an assumption.

Okay let me put this one to rest. You will NOT see a points drop, unless RM get seriously hamstringed in some way(like implamenting a cumalitive -1 to smite per cast). PM got a points drop with CA NOT thier codex. Why wouldn't you drop the points then? There is no reason to not drop the points, espically since they are underpowered compared to what the will be with the codex. Getting a points drop now makes no logical sense what so ever. CA came out a month ago we will probably have the TS codex in hand in a month. If there was a points reduction to do it would have happened, with CA not with the codex.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

I don't agree with you at all. Unless GW badly mangles the points, this will be the most viable the Sons have been in decades, possibly ever. Even beyond that, you can still take Sorcs/Rubricae/Scarabs, nobody is forcing you to take non-marine units so you can focus your army on the dustbins if you so choose. Given the surety of your statement, you should be posting in the news and ruours thread since you've clearly got an early copy of the 'dex if you KNOW it's going to be so heavily biased towards the non-marine units.

Because the Sons are one of the perennial favourites of the 10 billion "which legion is your favourite" polls that have been held on the various 40k forums for years and there would be a riot if they tried? Not willing to spend money? We got 3 new sorcs (and a load of bits to make dozens of variations), a new Ahriman (on disk!) and he got his own trilogy and an assortment of short stories, redone Rubricae, our own termies, a freakin' primarch (all of which are fantastic models) and you say that GW doesn't want to spend money on them? Just how high are you? Plot armour isn't a reason to keep 'em, but their popularity and their suitability for making good villians definately is.

Dreads could be pre-rubric and were dusted into it permanantly or even have been stolen salvaged from other legions/chapters via sorcery, the daemon engines can be traded with other forces on the unlikely chance that you can't make your own mechanical shell and have your various sorcs bind daemons into them and Vehicles can be piloted by anyone, they don't have to be marines, they could be daeamonically possessed or you can have pre-rubric vehicles that had their drivers dusted into their compartment. Given the fluff from the heresy, there were relatively few TS techmarines and those they did have probably got offed in the scuffle on Prospero. When your legion gets cut down from tens of thousands to ~1500 and then cut even further by the rubric, you're not going to have many specialists left, even less than you'd expect since the "normies" all got dusted and only the stronger psychers (who probably weren't techmarines or chaplains and such) remain, yeah, it's not super likely for you to have any techmarines left. Sure, you'll have some of the order of ruin, but I'd say much of it was replaced by sorcery and the stuff that wasn't probably got farmed out to the dark mechanicum.

So, you're assuming what we're going to get and complaining that the sky is falling about stuff that might not happen? Also, I never said I wanted disks to be common.

Except the bit where the chaos marines don't have the same views on serving their chapter and if you put someone in a giant unstoppable killing machine that's nigh invulnerable to anything short of anti-tank weapons, especially if it has retained it's psycher abilities, it's not going to let you keep bossing it around. Therefore anyone in command isn't going to let their position as chief arse-kicker be taken by a near dead psycher. IIRC, the Sons were the ones who figured out how to preserve the ability of psychers to continue to cast their space magic after they'd been stuffed into a dread and shared it with all the other legions, but only the BA really thought it was a good idea. It's definately not out of the question that the Sons simply can't replicate that anymore now that the majority of their legion and support staff have been busy being dead for the last 10,000 years. The loyalists probably also don't have the ability to heal themselves and others from "He's-dead-Jim" back to "good-as-new" status with psychery and witchcraft like the biomancers of the Thousand Sons do either, so, again, another reason why it's fairly unlikely for them to have psychernaughts.

Don't get me wrong, I think a psychic dread would be cool, and sometimes that's all the justification you need, but you can't ignore that there are a bunch of fluff reasons that say why it hasn't happened. Yes, you can totally re-write the fluff and retcon stuff away, but everytime you do, you're losing something of their identity. Having the same toys as other legions/chapters doesn't give them something special or expand their identity away from spiky marines, it goes the opposite way. The Sons have always been the most different from the other legions, I just don't see why you want to make them the same when we have interesting, fluffy choices for the first time in forever. I used to hate seeing people posting about their "Thousand Son list" with 1 squad of 5 rubricae and then filled with stuff like oblits, raptors and bikers, but I could understand why they did it because the Sons couldn't remain fluffy and have in codex FA or non-vehicle HS choices. Now we can and I'd really encourage you to at least wait until we have some solid info from the leaks before deciding that the Sons are "dead". What if rubricae are 15 ppm, they get regular smite and everyone always re-rolls perils with a 1CP stratagem for +1 to wound for all bolt weapons? Would they still be "dead"?

You do agree the army you used to see on the table is dead. You wont see it any more. You wont see a bunch of rubrics on the table supported by a bunch of sorcerers. Now it will be 1 Rubric squad or 1 SOT squad supporting Tzaangors and Daemons,

How long did it take to get those kits? Just because it recently happened doesnt mean GW gives a gak. I beleive SM got 5 new SM kits in the time it took them to get 1 new kit if you include Primaris Marines.

I am not assuning what we are getting they announced what we are getting and I know we don't need more footslogging infantry. We need fast attack. Enlightened and Skyfires both have Discs in thier boxes its a logical conclusion, not an assumption.

Okay let me put this one to rest. You will NOT see a points drop, unless RM get seriously hamstringed in some way(like implamenting a cumalitive -1 to smite per cast). PM got a points drop with CA NOT thier codex. Why wouldn't you drop the points then? There is no reason to not drop the points, espically since they are underpowered compared to what the will be with the codex. Getting a points drop now makes no logical sense what so ever. CA came out a month ago we will probably have the TS codex in hand in a month. If there was a points reduction to do it would have happened, with CA not with the codex.

this is assuming the Tzanagors are priced more compeitivly. if the Gors are massivly over priced and rubrics are a steal. you'll never see anything but rubric marines.

CA coming out recently isn't really an argument against changes in the Codex, I don't think. Most changes were to armies that already had their codex - new codexes were still being tested and balanced, so CA left them well alone. Likewise CD - we didn't see LoC drop 20pts in CA, even though CA and the CD codex were within a month of each other.

Necrons, Orks, Tau and 1kSons were all given the cold shoulder because they're up next in the Codex train.