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Is it confirmed that TS will be using their new dex?
Never mind just read the post and they are!! Count me excited!!
While a script is not hard to believe do you not think they will just play and let the chips fall where they may? Or is just an episode of Monday night RAW to show off the new franchise and have 1000 sons do the job? I would hope that they just play without a predetermined outcome.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/16 21:54:17
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Considering these battle reports are always showcases, it isn't hard to make educated guesses based on what they want to show off. For example:
1. The anti horde options of custodes will be on full display versus the normal tzaangors and cultists
2. The new elite gors and shamans will be shown off and compared favorable to the normal gors in this context, to show that non horde options are good as well.
3. Expect them to make a point of how the custodes can resist mortal wounds from psychic powers.
4. Probably going to get the vortex beast showing off a little, that seems minor enough to spoil this far ahead.
5. The end will be a close win by custodes facilitated by the fact they have objective secured on all infantry and bikes.
I suspect you're mostly right, although I imagine they'll also highlight the 1k sons psykic options and note that the custodes are "somewhat lacking in anti-psyker options aas such the new thousand sons are an excellent choice for chaos to fight these elite troops"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
You mentioned kroot, who occupy almost the exact same space in a Tau army complete with options in many of the same slots, then said this was unprecedented?
Also, it's an entirely playable fluff tsons army. It just isn't what you want. You want to play 30k, with a pure marine force. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that, it's just that tsons don't operate like that in 40k. They never have and likely never will. After all, the army actually present is far more interesting than a mere reskin of CSM with some rubric rules tossed on the various units, and will likely only gain in popularity.
The fact of the matter is I'm not even sure why you are bothered, you don't seem that invested in tson lore. You suggested adding reborn non rubric marine squads as if that wouldn't undermine everything about the tson's narrative and place in 40k. Just take a small tson force alongside your CSM main army, if you just want to use some of their unique units.
I dont want a pure Marine force I have said as much several times. I don't mind Tzaangors as aux units I mind when my aux units have more options then the Iconic units in an army.
I currently use Tzaangors, Rubrics, SOT, and Alpha Legion Suppliments.
As for what I want. That will never happen. 5 disciplines 1 for each cult, 3-4 spells per discipline. maybe 4 different Rubric units and 2-3 HQ options. Thats it its not like Im asking for the world
Suggested reborn non rubrics as another way to fill a slot not as something I would like or prefer. It was a better then all Tzzangor "release"
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Considering these battle reports are always showcases, it isn't hard to make educated guesses based on what they want to show off. For example:
1. The anti horde options of custodes will be on full display versus the normal tzaangors and cultists
2. The new elite gors and shamans will be shown off and compared favorable to the normal gors in this context, to show that non horde options are good as well.
3. Expect them to make a point of how the custodes can resist mortal wounds from psychic powers.
4. Probably going to get the vortex beast showing off a little, that seems minor enough to spoil this far ahead.
5. The end will be a close win by custodes facilitated by the fact they have objective secured on all infantry and bikes.
I suspect you're mostly right, although I imagine they'll also highlight the 1k sons psykic options and note that the custodes are "somewhat lacking in anti-psyker options aas such the new thousand sons are an excellent choice for chaos to fight these elite troops"
Agreed i dont know how scripted it will be but it will probably be at least a little since thier trying to showcase how the armies play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/17 05:27:24
Formosa wrote:I will try to say this politely, read the thread, my posts specifically, then come back and to me, I have said repeatedly I like tzaangors and like they are added to the book
Then why does it seem like you're complaining so hard about getting new stuff?
Formosa wrote:To your other statements, tzaangors have not been part of the fluff since 2nd, now they are back, cool, that good, more models, nice ones at that, but don't pretend "they have always been there" because I have yet to see them ever mentioned in 40k since 3rd, beastmen sure, but not tzaangors, khornegors, slaangors or pestigors, they were pretty much squatted until recently.
They were established as a thing back in the day and were never contradicted (same as Imperial Knights) and there were calls for their return for years while more than a few players used beastmen models as cultists to represent them. As for fluff, IIRC they were mentioned in battle of the fang (and possibly the prequel too) as being part of the assault among various other forces and again IIRC in the Ahriman trilogy (though the Tzaangor models had likely been greenlit by GW when John French was writing the series) as well as (again, IIRC), being statted out in one of the FFGRPG's (Dark Heresy maybe?).
Formosa wrote:Your example of the guard doesn't work in the slightest and isn't even referencing what I'm talking about, you can't throw an ork into the space Marine codex and give it the "astartes" keyword then claim it's a space Marine, tzaangors are not thousand sons, they are aux troops, that's it, adding the "thousand sons" keyword does not suddenly make them space Marines, finding it hard that people are not getting that, especially when I said "literally" are not thousand sons.
I'm not saying that you should throw an Ork into a marine army, I'm saying that just because they're not wearing power armour doesn't mean that they're not part of a TS army. By your logic, scouts don't belong in a marine army 'cause they're not full marines, grots don't belong in an ork army , hell, by your reasoning, poxwalkers don't belong in a death guard army and the sky is falling since they have the Heretic Astartes keyword. They (Tzaangors) have the HA keyword because that's how the keyword system works and they would be unusable without it (ie, couldn't cast spells on them from TS sorcs, wouldn't benefit from various rules that require the HA keyword etc, would break certain army composition requirements). They're not claiming that they're marines, just that they're part of the armylist.
Formosa wrote:I want more rubricai for the simple reason that these units should already be in the book, if they can hand wave sekmets into being rubrics, then why can't we have rubrics in other slots, im yet to see a valid fluff reason for why certain units cannot exist, as you say Tsons only had bolters until recently and suddenly they got some heresy era kit, as soon as that was introduced it created this very issue, if it had stayed just bolters I would be agreeing with you, but now I'm like "if they have these weapons, why are they not useing them as they have been trained to?" It made no sense, I do agree that it seems to be a legacy "spikey marine" issue, but as I said earlier in the thread, this book was a great opportunity to add more character to the Tsons, bulk out the Rubrics a bit, instead we have gotten a major focus on tzaangors, which is wrong for a thousand sons codex.
I can only imagine it's because rubricae aren't marines anymore, they're animated suits of armour? ie anything more complicated than a bolter, slugthrower (the not!Assault cannon) or a flamer is beyond them to operate reliably. As for adding character, well, you and I will have to agree to disagree on that one since giving them the equivalent of Rubricae Havoks or similar would feel like it takes away a lot of their character. I think that the Disc riding Tzaangors are a good compromise to give a TS army some mobile power without simply making them a copy-paste job of regular CSM. In my book, differentiating the Sons by making them utilise different units compared to all the other, non-dust legions gives them more character, not less. They're still a marine army, they've still got bolter plebs and marine vehicles, but they've got their own distinct flavour. Even with all this, you still don't have to take non-marine units, you still have options in fielding rubrics with sorc and vehicle support if you want.
SilverAlien wrote:
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Considering these battle reports are always showcases, it isn't hard to make educated guesses based on what they want to show off. For example:
1. The anti horde options of custodes will be on full display versus the normal tzaangors and cultists
2. The new elite gors and shamans will be shown off and compared favorable to the normal gors in this context, to show that non horde options are good as well.
3. Expect them to make a point of how the custodes can resist mortal wounds from psychic powers.
4. Probably going to get the vortex beast showing off a little, that seems minor enough to spoil this far ahead.
5. The end will be a close win by custodes facilitated by the fact they have objective secured on all infantry and bikes.
Do I need to remind you of the Woofs Vs Sons game where they were showing off the return of Magnus? Even looking at the lists, the Sons were going to get a raping even if they weren't horrendously misplayed from the start. What they want probably doesn't match with their competance to get said result.
Peregrine wrote: What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
Formosa wrote:I will try to say this politely, read the thread, my posts specifically, then come back and to me, I have said repeatedly I like tzaangors and like they are added to the book
Then why does it seem like you're complaining so hard about getting new stuff?
Formosa wrote:To your other statements, tzaangors have not been part of the fluff since 2nd, now they are back, cool, that good, more models, nice ones at that, but don't pretend "they have always been there" because I have yet to see them ever mentioned in 40k since 3rd, beastmen sure, but not tzaangors, khornegors, slaangors or pestigors, they were pretty much squatted until recently.
They were established as a thing back in the day and were never contradicted (same as Imperial Knights) and there were calls for their return for years while more than a few players used beastmen models as cultists to represent them. As for fluff, IIRC they were mentioned in battle of the fang (and possibly the prequel too) as being part of the assault among various other forces and again IIRC in the Ahriman trilogy (though the Tzaangor models had likely been greenlit by GW when John French was writing the series) as well as (again, IIRC), being statted out in one of the FFGRPG's (Dark Heresy maybe?).
Formosa wrote:Your example of the guard doesn't work in the slightest and isn't even referencing what I'm talking about, you can't throw an ork into the space Marine codex and give it the "astartes" keyword then claim it's a space Marine, tzaangors are not thousand sons, they are aux troops, that's it, adding the "thousand sons" keyword does not suddenly make them space Marines, finding it hard that people are not getting that, especially when I said "literally" are not thousand sons.
I'm not saying that you should throw an Ork into a marine army, I'm saying that just because they're not wearing power armour doesn't mean that they're not part of a TS army. By your logic, scouts don't belong in a marine army 'cause they're not full marines, grots don't belong in an ork army , hell, by your reasoning, poxwalkers don't belong in a death guard army and the sky is falling since they have the Heretic Astartes keyword. They (Tzaangors) have the HA keyword because that's how the keyword system works and they would be unusable without it (ie, couldn't cast spells on them from TS sorcs, wouldn't benefit from various rules that require the HA keyword etc, would break certain army composition requirements). They're not claiming that they're marines, just that they're part of the armylist.
Formosa wrote:I want more rubricai for the simple reason that these units should already be in the book, if they can hand wave sekmets into being rubrics, then why can't we have rubrics in other slots, im yet to see a valid fluff reason for why certain units cannot exist, as you say Tsons only had bolters until recently and suddenly they got some heresy era kit, as soon as that was introduced it created this very issue, if it had stayed just bolters I would be agreeing with you, but now I'm like "if they have these weapons, why are they not useing them as they have been trained to?" It made no sense, I do agree that it seems to be a legacy "spikey marine" issue, but as I said earlier in the thread, this book was a great opportunity to add more character to the Tsons, bulk out the Rubrics a bit, instead we have gotten a major focus on tzaangors, which is wrong for a thousand sons codex.
I can only imagine it's because rubricae aren't marines anymore, they're animated suits of armour? ie anything more complicated than a bolter, slugthrower (the not!Assault cannon) or a flamer is beyond them to operate reliably. As for adding character, well, you and I will have to agree to disagree on that one since giving them the equivalent of Rubricae Havoks or similar would feel like it takes away a lot of their character. I think that the Disc riding Tzaangors are a good compromise to give a TS army some mobile power without simply making them a copy-paste job of regular CSM. In my book, differentiating the Sons by making them utilise different units compared to all the other, non-dust legions gives them more character, not less. They're still a marine army, they've still got bolter plebs and marine vehicles, but they've got their own distinct flavour. Even with all this, you still don't have to take non-marine units, you still have options in fielding rubrics with sorc and vehicle support if you want.
Again with this Fasle Equivalency stuff.
No one is saying no Tzaangors allowed. We just want more Rubric options then Tzaangors as options. We want the focus to be on Rubrics with Tzaangors filling a couple holes. After this codex drops we are going to have more Tzaangors then Rubrics as options. If no one knew anything about this game and you showed them a TS army they would think the TS units are the support units and the bird men are the real army.
If we were getting another Rubric focused HQ and EITHER a heavy support, or a fast attack Rubric unit, I would be all about this release. I can deal with 50-50. Not getting anything on the Rubric side and getting 3 on the Tzaangor side means I have an Army of Tzaangors supported by Rubrics.
Watch this mutalith is just another kit they already had. Why couldn't they male a Sorc Drednaught? Makes perfect sence. Dying legion that needs to get the most milage out of its members uses tech to extend the existance of the few member it has, right? No lets cram a pleb no-name CSM (which we don't have access to btw) into this metal hunk, whats that put a psyker in there? Na that would be effective amd deady we dont want that.
Spoiler:
SilverAlien wrote:
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Considering these battle reports are always showcases, it isn't hard to make educated guesses based on what they want to show off. For example:
1. The anti horde options of custodes will be on full display versus the normal tzaangors and cultists
2. The new elite gors and shamans will be shown off and compared favorable to the normal gors in this context, to show that non horde options are good as well.
3. Expect them to make a point of how the custodes can resist mortal wounds from psychic powers.
4. Probably going to get the vortex beast showing off a little, that seems minor enough to spoil this far ahead.
5. The end will be a close win by custodes facilitated by the fact they have objective secured on all infantry and bikes.
Do I need to remind you of the Woofs Vs Sons game where they were showing off the return of Magnus? Even looking at the lists, the Sons were going to get a raping even if they weren't horrendously misplayed from the start. What they want probably doesn't match with their competance to get said result.
I dont think it will be a slaughter, but why that will be the case will be up for debate. They are trying to sell both armies not just 1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/17 07:52:31
Formosa wrote:I will try to say this politely, read the thread, my posts specifically, then come back and to me, I have said repeatedly I like tzaangors and like they are added to the book
1: Then why does it seem like you're complaining so hard about getting new stuff?
Formosa wrote:To your other statements, tzaangors have not been part of the fluff since 2nd, now they are back, cool, that good, more models, nice ones at that, but don't pretend "they have always been there" because I have yet to see them ever mentioned in 40k since 3rd, beastmen sure, but not tzaangors, khornegors, slaangors or pestigors, they were pretty much squatted until recently.
2: They were established as a thing back in the day and were never contradicted (same as Imperial Knights) and there were calls for their return for years while more than a few players used beastmen models as cultists to represent them. As for fluff, IIRC they were mentioned in battle of the fang (and possibly the prequel too) as being part of the assault among various other forces and again IIRC in the Ahriman trilogy (though the Tzaangor models had likely been greenlit by GW when John French was writing the series) as well as (again, IIRC), being statted out in one of the FFGRPG's (Dark Heresy maybe?).
Formosa wrote:Your example of the guard doesn't work in the slightest and isn't even referencing what I'm talking about, you can't throw an ork into the space Marine codex and give it the "astartes" keyword then claim it's a space Marine, tzaangors are not thousand sons, they are aux troops, that's it, adding the "thousand sons" keyword does not suddenly make them space Marines, finding it hard that people are not getting that, especially when I said "literally" are not thousand sons.
3: I'm not saying that you should throw an Ork into a marine army, I'm saying that just because they're not wearing power armour doesn't mean that they're not part of a TS army. By your logic, scouts don't belong in a marine army 'cause they're not full marines, grots don't belong in an ork army , hell, by your reasoning, poxwalkers don't belong in a death guard army and the sky is falling since they have the Heretic Astartes keyword. They (Tzaangors) have the HA keyword because that's how the keyword system works and they would be unusable without it (ie, couldn't cast spells on them from TS sorcs, wouldn't benefit from various rules that require the HA keyword etc, would break certain army composition requirements). They're not claiming that they're marines, just that they're part of the armylist.
Formosa wrote:I want more rubricai for the simple reason that these units should already be in the book, if they can hand wave sekmets into being rubrics, then why can't we have rubrics in other slots, im yet to see a valid fluff reason for why certain units cannot exist, as you say Tsons only had bolters until recently and suddenly they got some heresy era kit, as soon as that was introduced it created this very issue, if it had stayed just bolters I would be agreeing with you, but now I'm like "if they have these weapons, why are they not useing them as they have been trained to?" It made no sense, I do agree that it seems to be a legacy "spikey marine" issue, but as I said earlier in the thread, this book was a great opportunity to add more character to the Tsons, bulk out the Rubrics a bit, instead we have gotten a major focus on tzaangors, which is wrong for a thousand sons codex.
4: I can only imagine it's because rubricae aren't marines anymore, they're animated suits of armour? ie anything more complicated than a bolter, slugthrower (the not!Assault cannon) or a flamer is beyond them to operate reliably. As for adding character, well, you and I will have to agree to disagree on that one since giving them the equivalent of Rubricae Havoks or similar would feel like it takes away a lot of their character. I think that the Disc riding Tzaangors are a good compromise to give a TS army some mobile power without simply making them a copy-paste job of regular CSM. In my book, differentiating the Sons by making them utilise different units compared to all the other, non-dust legions gives them more character, not less. They're still a marine army, they've still got bolter plebs and marine vehicles, but they've got their own distinct flavour. Even with all this, you still don't have to take non-marine units, you still have options in fielding rubrics with sorc and vehicle support if you want.
SilverAlien wrote:
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Considering these battle reports are always showcases, it isn't hard to make educated guesses based on what they want to show off. For example:
1. The anti horde options of custodes will be on full display versus the normal tzaangors and cultists
2. The new elite gors and shamans will be shown off and compared favorable to the normal gors in this context, to show that non horde options are good as well.
3. Expect them to make a point of how the custodes can resist mortal wounds from psychic powers.
4. Probably going to get the vortex beast showing off a little, that seems minor enough to spoil this far ahead.
5. The end will be a close win by custodes facilitated by the fact they have objective secured on all infantry and bikes.
Do I need to remind you of the Woofs Vs Sons game where they were showing off the return of Magnus? Even looking at the lists, the Sons were going to get a raping even if they weren't horrendously misplayed from the start. What they want probably doesn't match with their competance to get said result.
1: I havent been complaining, if thats how you have interpreted it, thats your mistake.
2: So you agree that they were effectviely squatted until recently, cool, and now they have been brought back cool.
3: again your examples completely miss the point, not the mention are completely wrong, a grot IS and orkoid, a scout IS a space marine, a Tzaangor is literally not a Thousand son, a pox walkers IS LITERALLY not a Death Guard, what is so hard for you to grasp with this, adding the keyword doesnt suddenly make them Rubrics, it doesnt suddenly make the Space Marines, so when I have repeatedly asked for more Thousand sons, the stupid people on here have said "derp, Tzaangors are Thousand sons Derp derp", and I have said repeatedly they are not, because they are not, they are an Aux force that work with the Thousand sons, NOT THOUSAND SONS, just emphasising that point, like guard can work with space marines, but that doesnt make them ultramarines or space marines.....
4: if what you say is true they would not be able to fight in CC, shoot moving targets (which requires a hell of a lot more dexterity than people are giving them credit for) etc. so no, I stand by that fact that there is no credible fluff reason for lack of weapons options, while there is an option of just taking marines, that leaves the book extremely empty, the gors should have been added in addition to a slight expansion of the marine part of the book, not instead of it, either way I will get what I want from this book, I will create my own Tsons units for non matched play and expand the list myself, it will be very easy, which is yet another reason GW should have done it, because it was very easy to do.
Using miniatures that had already invested into to give them new units rather than investing in new miniatures.
The reason GW does or does not do anything related to new minis is not because "writing the rules would be sooooo hardddddd" its' because new rules require (now) new miniatures, and new miniatures are a significant investment/risk...unless you have already released and started to pay off the molds by releasing them for another game. This kind of a release is essentially a freebie whenever they can do it.
if you really think GW is too stoopid to write rules for a psychic dreadnought I'd point you at the 55,628,456 different variant dreadnoughts with rules available in the game and through forgeworld.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
No, it really would not be any harder than using the gors/mutalit.
You can EASILY make 3-4 new TS rubric/sorcerer units using only existing kits, either in GW kitbashing (IE dreadknight grandmaster), or using FW kits that got no 40k rules (like THE GODAMN PSYKER DREADNAUT!)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/17 14:50:35
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
You can EASILY make 3-4 new TS rubric/sorcerer units using only existing kits.
Exactly this...
They could scrap the idea of Exalted Sorcerers as an HQ unit entirely and make a Sorcerer Coven Brotherhood of Psyker type units instead. The kit has tons of bits that could be used to make many more models than just the 3 in the box. They could have then made a Sorcerer Coven of the Pavoni/Corvidae/Pyrae/Raporta and given each of these units access to a unique spell related to the cult they were in. A flamer template here, a ordnance stormcloud there, a buff circle etc.
Fluff reasoning is easy. If we can assume that there is a such thing as an Aspiring Sorcerer in the Thousand Sons, these brotherhood units could represent new recruits and such. Thousand Sons raid blackships and steal all the psykers that are reasonably stable, forcibly implant their geneseed into them and the few that survive are trained through these sorcerer covens until they are strong enough to be a sorcerer lord of their own etc.
Using miniatures that had already invested into to give them new units rather than investing in new miniatures.
The reason GW does or does not do anything related to new minis is not because "writing the rules would be sooooo hardddddd" its' because new rules require (now) new miniatures, and new miniatures are a significant investment/risk...unless you have already released and started to pay off the molds by releasing them for another game. This kind of a release is essentially a freebie whenever they can do it.
if you really think GW is too stoopid to write rules for a psychic dreadnought I'd point you at the 55,628,456 different variant dreadnoughts with rules available in the game and through forgeworld.
No your right, it is easier to invest in miniatures they already have, we already have rubrics, we dont NEED new models for the heavy weapon of special weapon teams, they already exist, we would just need to buy more boxes like we always have, like with old devastators and wanting 4 lascannon (think the new ones dont even have that), so it would be a net gain for them, just give us the options and we can do the rest and they make money, if a 3rd party comes in offering weapons .... oh wait, they already do..... so GW isnt actually gaining anything by not making the unit option, nor are they in fact losing anything.
And the dread example isnt a good one to be honest, since the models already exist and just need porting over from 30k, which I hope they do, then bam! we have a psy dread that fits nicely into the Tsons and I would be happier, the hellbrute doesnt really fit aesthetically to me (other people may think differently) with Tsons, same with the other FW dread variants save the Big Deamon one (forget its name), that seems to fit.
BoomWolf wrote: No, it really would not be any harder than using the gors/mutalit.
You can EASILY make 3-4 new TS rubric/sorcerer units using only existing kits, either in GW kitbashing (IE dreadknight grandmaster), or using FW kits that got no 40k rules (like THE GODAMN PSYKER DREADNAUT!)
Yeah because GW has done so much to advance the idea of kitbashing as a standard process to creating units in 8th - they've never been more unconcerned with having players only buying and making new units with existing, official GW kits!
Also, forgeworld in 8th is very much a separate entity, and also in many ways essentially a dumpster fire. If they make 40k rules for special dreadnought #65,123 then they get to it when they get to it The rules for the Hellforged Contemptor already exist, and are pretty solid, it's what I currently use my Osiron as. Psychicness notwithstanding, it's a dreadnought with the right weapons and an invulnerable save, how different would a Rubric Contemptor be ruleswise? a 4++ instead of a 5++?
All I can say I guess is picking up this army has done nothing but amaze me with how quickly the CSM community has gotten spoilt with the recent GW attention. If you handed Ork players half the number of unit options, wargear choices and forgeworld options that normal or chaos marines have already got, they'd be bloody ecstatic. Two codexes in as many years with brand new kits for all the existing units, a new super-character, special sorcerors, and a special variant cultist-type with its own special buffing characters and specialist units and we've got 14 pages of whining about how there's not more. Two years ago when I started this army it was with wonky resin upgrade packs I had to buy alongside regular CSM kits.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/17 15:07:25
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
BoomWolf wrote: No, it really would not be any harder than using the gors/mutalit.
You can EASILY make 3-4 new TS rubric/sorcerer units using only existing kits, either in GW kitbashing (IE dreadknight grandmaster), or using FW kits that got no 40k rules (like THE GODAMN PSYKER DREADNAUT!)
Yeah because GW has done so much to advance the idea of kitbashing as a standard process to creating units in 8th - they've never been more unconcerned with having players only buying and making new units with existing, official GW kits!
Also, forgeworld in 8th is very much a separate entity, and also in many ways essentially a dumpster fire. If they make 40k rules for special dreadnought #65,123 then they get to it when they get to it The rules for the Hellforged Contemptor already exist, and are pretty solid, it's what I currently use my Osiron as. Psychicness notwithstanding, it's a dreadnought with the right weapons and an invulnerable save, how different would a Rubric Contemptor be ruleswise? a 4++ instead of a 5++?
All I can say I guess is picking up this army has done nothing but amaze me with how quickly the CSM community has gotten spoilt with the recent GW attention. If you handed Ork players half the number of unit options, wargear choices and forgeworld options that normal or chaos marines have already got, they'd be bloody ecstatic. Two codexes in as many years with brand new kits for all the existing units, a new super-character, special sorcerors, and a special variant cultist-type with its own special buffing characters and specialist units and we've got 14 pages of whining about how there's not more. Two years ago when I started this army it was with wonky resin upgrade packs I had to buy alongside regular CSM kits.
Yep, the "no model, no rules" policy is soooooo popular right?
The hellforged contemptor isnt a psyker, so not sure where you are going with that example, so yes there would be a clear difference.
your last comment is not really worth the number of letter you have put into it, you confuse whining with asking questions and discussing it, you equate wanting new datasheets with new models, which is not what we have been saying, and saying that ork players would be happy if they had the support that chaos is getting recently has no bearing at all, in fact you come across as whining, which i dont think is your intention at all.
I have been playing Tsons since 3rd, ah back when chaos space marines could represent so much more, with so much less, I would have loved to have the model option we have now, with the cusomisation and "feel" of the 3.5 codex, shame GW doenst make codexs like that anymore.
The psyker dreadnought is happening in time. Give it some time. I have it on good faith, its going to be a thing, but FW need to get around to it.
Heres the thing; What if Rubrics as troops are fantastic? what if with the legion tactic, the strategems, spell support...they become murderous and very effective?
Not to mention a more-then-likely points drop.... I think Rubrics will be a constant staple in our list, and once the books out we will see just how many is reasonable. I use 20-25 or so per game right now, If the new book makes them better I can see 30 being or more being a regular staple in 2000 points, especially with a points drop.
Lets have just a little bit of reasonable discourse here; If this ends up being the case (id say everything I said is totally reasonable and we can expect basically all of it to be true in some fashion) why does anyone else care about new tzaangors? In the Index I often wouldnt use tzaangors in a list, and before codexs were the norm they did fine.
Ahriman21 wrote: The psyker dreadnought is happening in time. Give it some time. I have it on good faith, its going to be a thing, but FW need to get around to it.
Heres the thing; What if Rubrics as troops are fantastic? what if with the legion tactic, the strategems, spell support...they become murderous and very effective?
Not to mention a more-then-likely points drop.... I think Rubrics will be a constant staple in our list, and once the books out we will see just how many is reasonable. I use 20-25 or so per game right now, If the new book makes them better I can see 30 being or more being a regular staple in 2000 points, especially with a points drop.
Lets have just a little bit of reasonable discourse here; If this ends up being the case (id say everything I said is totally reasonable and we can expect basically all of it to be true in some fashion) why does anyone else care about new tzaangors? In the Index I often wouldnt use tzaangors in a list, and before codexs were the norm they did fine.
Once we have our dex we will be a good army.
Well said, the only reason I keep coming back to this is because some keep dismissing that all we want is more options, we won't get them for a long time if at all, but there is nothing wrong with wanting more units/options.
As soon as the codex drops I plan on buying the AOS tzaangors box set as I can use them for both (won't be painting them that horrible blue though), they are some really nice models and it's good that they are getting there own shared codex, I am wondering if they will get any relics too, I would love a bow relic that does silly things, maybe a lascannon stat line, magic arrows or somthing
Skerr wrote: Is it confirmed that TS will be using their new dex?
Never mind just read the post and they are!! Count me excited!!
While a script is not hard to believe do you not think they will just play and let the chips fall where they may? Or is just an episode of Monday night RAW to show off the new franchise and have 1000 sons do the job? I would hope that they just play without a predetermined outcome.
They play a real game. When Magnus debuted he got blown to bits.
Ahriman21 wrote: The psyker dreadnought is happening in time. Give it some time. I have it on good faith, its going to be a thing, but FW need to get around to it.
Heres the thing; What if Rubrics as troops are fantastic? what if with the legion tactic, the strategems, spell support...they become murderous and very effective?
Not to mention a more-then-likely points drop.... I think Rubrics will be a constant staple in our list, and once the books out we will see just how many is reasonable. I use 20-25 or so per game right now, If the new book makes them better I can see 30 being or more being a regular staple in 2000 points, especially with a points drop.
Lets have just a little bit of reasonable discourse here; If this ends up being the case (id say everything I said is totally reasonable and we can expect basically all of it to be true in some fashion) why does anyone else care about new tzaangors? In the Index I often wouldnt use tzaangors in a list, and before codexs were the norm they did fine.
Once we have our dex we will be a good army.
And how fun is 30 Rubrics? You get your bolters and your flamers. You get the same two options every game, every squad. I got bored doing that so I started expanding. Melee based Helbrute. Daemon Prince. Hellturkey. Tzaangors. Finally, I looked at my army and realized, I'm no longer playing a Thousand Sons army. I'm playing a Chaos Space marines army with a squad of Rubrics who didn't do much outside of hold an objective.
Interesting (if odd) perspective, you and I look at things very differently in that regard.
I think that having the ability to alter army list and list type is a huge part of variety.
bolters and flamers are fine, soul reaper cannons are fantastic. and the guns that rubrics carry are quality shooting.
Having the ability to add variety to the 1k sons list type doesnt somehow subtract from the list.. I often find that with spell support, daemon support, daemon engine support, and the ability to take goats if i wanted there was enough variety for the indexs purposes having all engines/tanks from the standard chaos list + most of the great forgeworld units.
Thats enough for the index, the new stuff being added gives us a wide variety of list type (lets assume that at least ONE of the Two types of goats on discs we are getting is good at its job on the table.
And how fun is 30 Rubrics? You get your bolters and your flamers. You get the same two options every game, every squad. I got bored doing that so I started expanding. Melee based Helbrute. Daemon Prince. Hellturkey. Tzaangors. Finally, I looked at my army and realized, I'm no longer playing a Thousand Sons army. I'm playing a Chaos Space marines army with a squad of Rubrics who didn't do much outside of hold an objective.
Pretty damn fun if you ask me. I brought down a gorkanaut with bolters, a DP aura, and VotLW (as "Black Legion").
And then I have two squads of 5 in a rhino and soulreapers to hop out and burn someone off an objective.
I've also done a squad with 4 flamers in a rhino and ahriman riding on a disc behind them, hop out, move, warptime, and toast.
I'm just hoping we get some morale protection in the book to make big squads more feasible.
Unless t sons get some serious love in the new Dex, I'm talking either access to a powers, or ignore the smite rule that's probably going to be official, they are really only good as a supporting detatchment. I started off trying to make them as an army and I just can't do it.
They are great and cutting down the chaff of MEQ, but other then that, super meh and over cost. I have shifted bo to daemons with T some support.
I'm agreeing that there's not currently a way for Tsons to represent a psychic dreadnought. I consider my Osiron to be a Rubric Contemptor, which would not be a psyker.
Whether the "no model no rules" policy is popular or not, it's still a policy. getting "14 pages" level disappointed over something not happening that would have been a MASSIVE 180 in GWs current rules design is pretty much setting oneself up for disappointment.
I could say right now "if the ork codex doesn't get Looted Wagon rules giving me official license to convert and use vehicles from every faction then I will declare my Big Mek focused speed freeks army to be dead!" and if I did so I'd be essentially guaranteeing that I will be disappointed. If you expected rules for Rubric Devastators, Rubric Bikers, Sorceror centurions, etc, knowing how GW has been putting out these codexes and having seen the DG release, I don't know what to tell you other than I'm sorry and that you shoudn't set yourself up for disappointment.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: I'm agreeing that there's not currently a way for Tsons to represent a psychic dreadnought. I consider my Osiron to be a Rubric Contemptor, which would not be a psyker.
Whether the "no model no rules" policy is popular or not, it's still a policy. getting "14 pages" level disappointed over something not happening that would have been a MASSIVE 180 in GWs current rules design is pretty much setting oneself up for disappointment.
I could say right now "if the ork codex doesn't get Looted Wagon rules giving me official license to convert and use vehicles from every faction then I will declare my Big Mek focused speed freeks army to be dead!" and if I did so I'd be essentially guaranteeing that I will be disappointed. If you expected rules for Rubric Devastators, Rubric Bikers, Sorceror centurions, etc, knowing how GW has been putting out these codexes and having seen the DG release, I don't know what to tell you other than I'm sorry and that you shoudn't set yourself up for disappointment.
We didn't expect the rules, we haven't even demanded them or anything, we WANT the rules, so the disappointment doesn't come from a lack of these units, it comes from a wasted opportunity to expand upon these units, in the same manner as other books in this edition and others have wasted opertunities to fix underlying issues with the codex or expand on an underrepresented faction, orks are a very good example of that, same with chaos cults and until recently, genestealer cults, there is so much more they could do, but that policy has been holding them back for far too long, it's a real shame our community is so fractured as otherwise we could show them we don't approve in a more meaningful way.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm agreeing that there's not currently a way for Tsons to represent a psychic dreadnought. I consider my Osiron to be a Rubric Contemptor, which would not be a psyker.
Whether the "no model no rules" policy is popular or not, it's still a policy. getting "14 pages" level disappointed over something not happening that would have been a MASSIVE 180 in GWs current rules design is pretty much setting oneself up for disappointment.
I could say right now "if the ork codex doesn't get Looted Wagon rules giving me official license to convert and use vehicles from every faction then I will declare my Big Mek focused speed freeks army to be dead!" and if I did so I'd be essentially guaranteeing that I will be disappointed. If you expected rules for Rubric Devastators, Rubric Bikers, Sorceror centurions, etc, knowing how GW has been putting out these codexes and having seen the DG release, I don't know what to tell you other than I'm sorry and that you shoudn't set yourself up for disappointment.
I don't think anyone was expecting Jump Pack dudes for Sons or Guard outside maybe Warp Talons because Daemons and all that, but there does need to be consistency somewhere. Why are Chaos Lords only T4 and have no Disgustingly Resilient? I can bet we won't get a Lord equivalent with the Dust rule either. Because reasons.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm agreeing that there's not currently a way for Tsons to represent a psychic dreadnought. I consider my Osiron to be a Rubric Contemptor, which would not be a psyker.
Whether the "no model no rules" policy is popular or not, it's still a policy. getting "14 pages" level disappointed over something not happening that would have been a MASSIVE 180 in GWs current rules design is pretty much setting oneself up for disappointment.
I could say right now "if the ork codex doesn't get Looted Wagon rules giving me official license to convert and use vehicles from every faction then I will declare my Big Mek focused speed freeks army to be dead!" and if I did so I'd be essentially guaranteeing that I will be disappointed. If you expected rules for Rubric Devastators, Rubric Bikers, Sorceror centurions, etc, knowing how GW has been putting out these codexes and having seen the DG release, I don't know what to tell you other than I'm sorry and that you shoudn't set yourself up for disappointment.
I don't think anyone was expecting Jump Pack dudes for Sons or Guard outside maybe Warp Talons because Daemons and all that, but there does need to be consistency somewhere. Why are Chaos Lords only T4 and have no Disgustingly Resilient? I can bet we won't get a Lord equivalent with the Dust rule either. Because reasons.
Wouldn't be surprised as index tsons can't take a Lord at all, and none of the HQs have the Dust rule...because theyre not made of dust.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: I'm agreeing that there's not currently a way for Tsons to represent a psychic dreadnought. I consider my Osiron to be a Rubric Contemptor, which would not be a psyker.
Whether the "no model no rules" policy is popular or not, it's still a policy. getting "14 pages" level disappointed over something not happening that would have been a MASSIVE 180 in GWs current rules design is pretty much setting oneself up for disappointment.
I could say right now "if the ork codex doesn't get Looted Wagon rules giving me official license to convert and use vehicles from every faction then I will declare my Big Mek focused speed freeks army to be dead!" and if I did so I'd be essentially guaranteeing that I will be disappointed. If you expected rules for Rubric Devastators, Rubric Bikers, Sorceror centurions, etc, knowing how GW has been putting out these codexes and having seen the DG release, I don't know what to tell you other than I'm sorry and that you shoudn't set yourself up for disappointment.
I don't think anyone was expecting Jump Pack dudes for Sons or Guard outside maybe Warp Talons because Daemons and all that, but there does need to be consistency somewhere. Why are Chaos Lords only T4 and have no Disgustingly Resilient? I can bet we won't get a Lord equivalent with the Dust rule either. Because reasons.
Wouldn't be surprised as index tsons can't take a Lord at all, and none of the HQs have the Dust rule...because theyre not made of dust.
I might expect a Lord to though instead of the Sorcerer was more the point I was making.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I've tried reading some of this thread, but I'll admit the arguing from both sides made it difficult to grasp, but can someone clear something up for me? There's a lot of talk about Gors, are Thousand Sons bringing Beastmen back to 40k? Because that'd be cool.
Otherwise, Tzaangors have been in Thousand Sons already, and with GW doing the smart cross-game daemons thing, it only makes sense that the other AOS units would get some rules. Hell, I'd like to see them bring units from other armies in AOS into 40k! Gimme some Duardin assault units for Tau or Guard, some feral Orks and a sprue of space guns added to a Stormcast box would have saved them tons on developing the Custodes army!
~4100
~1660
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
2500
2000
1750 
The rules for the Hellforged Contemptor already exist, and are pretty solid, it's what I currently use my Osiron as. Psychicness notwithstanding, it's a dreadnought with the right weapons and an invulnerable save, how different would a Rubric Contemptor be ruleswise? a 4++ instead of a 5++?
