Samii wrote:
For a while Decimators have been known to be good in BL.

With reserves in AoO they can just show up and delete things: I found that against DW they were very useful.

The Volkite Contemptor is another key. With Eternal Vendetta, if your opponent has something big and tough starting on the board, they are basically handing it over to you.

Turn 2 you switch to killing infantry with it. The Nurgle version (see the previous post) never dies.

Where Dean opened my eyes was with Helbrutes, they work really well now. They can let you play offensively, coming in flaming infantry, cracking vehicles with MM and charging stuff. They can interrupt in the shooting phase, which is an undervalued ability and can score BEL. Alternately, you play defensively, if your opponent rushes your DZ and (in my list) castle, they can come in Turn 2, shoot and charge them from an 1" away.

I have tried various things, but I think Dean's Helbrutes strat works particularly well in the AoO meta.

Best,
Samii.

Really interesting things to consider...

How do you feel the Decimator vs Contemptor? The -1 CP is a hard pill to swallow, but I do run exclusively BL CSM so the +1 to hit with free reserves for either is extremely alluring. As for the contemptor specifically, less wounds but no bracketing, -1 to damage and a +5 invulnerable is rad, didn't even think about Nurgle. Hatred Unbound stratagem unlocks exploding 6s on all 16 of those shots too... mmmmmmm

As with everything CSM, the trick is not to over invest and have many back up options.

The Volkite Contemptor with missiles is an expensive unit, but it fills a gap CSM lacks: ranged fire that is efficient into a lot of targets.

I went the Nurgle route, because MoN gives you at least some protection from Rail Guns, Vanquishers etc., with transhuman. I leaned into this though and found that you can stack buffs on it that make it hard to kill with the things that normally threaten a Contemptor chassis.

If you get it to T8 with MoP, this stacks with MoN, so without transhuman, you are being wounded on 5+ by overcharging plasma, melta and TH. You can also make it transhit with a DA. It gives you another target to stack buffs on, so once the Chosen bomb is deployed you have something else for the MoP and DA to buff.

I usually have a MoN Legionnaire unit also to cast -1 to hit. If I need to protect the Legionnaires, those buffs go on them. With MEQ MSU the MoP resurrection power gets more value. So everything has use here.

The great thing with the Contemptor is that on Turn 1 you use Eternal Vendetta to destroy armor, but then switch to infantry where it remains efficient.

The MW Decimators are, likewise, efficient into most tough targets and would be great in any army, nevermind CSM which typically don't have great shooting.

Best,
Samii.

Thanks for the detailed game write-ups you have been posting Samii.
At this point I am a little lost with the final version of your list, mind sharing it?

 Kyroptera Tomie wrote:
Thanks for the detailed game write-ups you have been posting Samii.
At this point I am a little lost with the final version of your list, mind sharing it?

Black Legion Arks of Omen Detachment

Chaos Lord - Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades
Mark of Khorne
Warlord Trait: Eternal Vendetta

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour - Force Sword, Combi-bolter, Chaos Familiar
Mark of Tzeentch
Relic: Veilbreaker Plate
Spells: Smite, Prescience, Diabolic Strength, Skeins of Fate

Master of Possession - Bolt Pistol, Staff of Possession, Frag and Krak Grenades
Spells: Smite, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh

Dark Apostle - Bolt Pistol, Accursed Crozius, Frag and Krak Grenades
Prayers: Dark Zealotry, Illusory Supplication
2 x Dark Disciples

Chaos Contemptor - x2 Twin-volkite Culverins, Hellforged Cyclone Missile Launcher
Mark of Nurgle

Chaos Decimator - x2 Soulburner Petards

Chaos Decimator - x2 Soulburner Petards

Helbrute - Multi-melta, Helbrute Fist, Heavy Flamer

Helbrute - Multi-melta, Helbrute Fist, Heavy Flamer

Chosen
x 8 Chosen
x 1 Power Fist
x 7 Accursed Weapons
x 8 Boltguns
x 8 Bolt Pistols
Frag and Krak Grenades
Champion - Power Fist, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol
Mark of Tzeentch

Legionnaires
x 4 Legionnaires
x 4 Bolt Pistols
x 1 Lascannon
x 2 Boltguns
x 1 Balefire Tome
Frag and Krak Grenades
Aspiring Champion - Plasma Pistol, Boltgun
Mark of Nurgle
Spells: Smite, Diabolic Strength, Putrid Miasma

Cultists Mob
x 11 Cultists
x 8 Cultist Firearms
x 1 Cultist Grenade Launcher
x 1 Flamer
x 1 Heavy Stubber
Frag and Krak Grenades
Cultist Champion - Cultist Firearm

Chaos Spawn - Hideous Mutations

Havocs
x 4 Havocs
x 4 Lascannons
Havoc Champion - Boltgun
Mark of Slaanesh

Allied Chaos Knights Superheavy Auxiliary Detachment

War Dog Brigand (Dreadblade) - Avenger Chaincannon, Daemonbreath Spear, Diabolus Heavy Stubber
Fell Bond: Biomechanical Fusion
Mirror of Fates

I think the reason the list has been doing so well is the unusual configuration: a lot of odd interactions, FW and an allied Knight.

EightFoldPath wrote:
It will be 5 Thunder Hammers for 175 points.

The basic maths is:
5 x (2 + 1 + 1) + 1 = 21 attacks
3s to hit re-rolling all = 18.67 hits
2s to wound = 15.56 wounds
5s to save = 10.37 dead termies

The buffs are:
Dante hit re-rolls
Death Company Apothecary puts them into assault doctrine for +1A and +1AP
Death Company Ancient +1 to hit
Chapter tactic already gives +1 to wound

The buffs on the Slaanesh termies are:
-1 to wound thanks to Black Rune
Nothing else because they went first

Kangrupa that is a lesson learned in blood and one I have also experienced. Teaches you to always ask questions like "can you do a pre-game move" and "how many sources of D3+ do you have"?

No Dark Apostle? (2+ and any unmodified 1-3 to hit fails)

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
It will be 5 Thunder Hammers for 175 points.

The basic maths is:
5 x (2 + 1 + 1) + 1 = 21 attacks
3s to hit re-rolling all = 18.67 hits
2s to wound = 15.56 wounds
5s to save = 10.37 dead termies

The buffs are:
Dante hit re-rolls
Death Company Apothecary puts them into assault doctrine for +1A and +1AP
Death Company Ancient +1 to hit
Chapter tactic already gives +1 to wound

The buffs on the Slaanesh termies are:
-1 to wound thanks to Black Rune
Nothing else because they went first

Kangrupa that is a lesson learned in blood and one I have also experienced. Teaches you to always ask questions like "can you do a pre-game move" and "how many sources of D3+ do you have"?

No Dark Apostle? (2+ and any unmodified 1-3 to hit fails)

If they go first, you can't get your Prayers up and running.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
It will be 5 Thunder Hammers for 175 points.

The basic maths is:
5 x (2 + 1 + 1) + 1 = 21 attacks
3s to hit re-rolling all = 18.67 hits
2s to wound = 15.56 wounds
5s to save = 10.37 dead termies

The buffs are:
Dante hit re-rolls
Death Company Apothecary puts them into assault doctrine for +1A and +1AP
Death Company Ancient +1 to hit
Chapter tactic already gives +1 to wound

The buffs on the Slaanesh termies are:
-1 to wound thanks to Black Rune
Nothing else because they went first

Kangrupa that is a lesson learned in blood and one I have also experienced. Teaches you to always ask questions like "can you do a pre-game move" and "how many sources of D3+ do you have"?

No Dark Apostle? (2+ and any unmodified 1-3 to hit fails)

If they go first, you can't get your Prayers up and running.

OMG why did I think it was before the first battle round... my bad, sorry about that.

I'm presently trying to decide between Iron Warriors and Word Bearers for CSM. My issue is that I like the look and fluff of both (IW slightly more), but I find it a cop out to try and justify things like possessed or daemonic allies in IW. I could but it feels "beardy" and making an excuse for the sake of the rules. On the flip side these things fit in perfectly in word bearers, which makes them a bit more tempting

It's always seemed like GW constantly screws over pure undivided for those legions like iron warriors, alpha legion, or night lords where they aren't very "chaotic" because you're missing out on a lot of what the codex offers unless you play loose with the fluff.

My friends laugh at me for having this dilemma but I'm can't help the fact I like to make sure armies got the background without feeling like I'm making excuses to justify power gaming choices that don't fit.

Wayniac wrote:
I'm presently trying to decide between Iron Warriors and Word Bearers for CSM. My issue is that I like the look and fluff of both (IW slightly more), but I find it a cop out to try and justify things like possessed or daemonic allies in IW. I could but it feels "beardy" and making an excuse for the sake of the rules. On the flip side these things fit in perfectly in word bearers, which makes them a bit more tempting

It's always seemed like GW constantly screws over pure undivided for those legions like iron warriors, alpha legion, or night lords where they aren't very "chaotic" because you're missing out on a lot of what the codex offers unless you play loose with the fluff.

My friends laugh at me for having this dilemma but I'm can't help the fact I like to make sure armies got the background without feeling like I'm making excuses to justify power gaming choices that don't fit.

Just give in & accept that in the end you'll be making two armies.
So, wich one do you want to make 1st?

For IW make converted possessed with a more robotic aspect, perhaps doing the same for the MoP and Warp Talons. I'm assuming Obliterators and daemon engines are sufficiently IW-ey as is.

I'd maybe have a look at the AdMech kits if considering this.

Wayniac wrote:
I'm presently trying to decide between Iron Warriors and Word Bearers for CSM. My issue is that I like the look and fluff of both (IW slightly more), but I find it a cop out to try and justify things like possessed or daemonic allies in IW. I could but it feels "beardy" and making an excuse for the sake of the rules. On the flip side these things fit in perfectly in word bearers, which makes them a bit more tempting

It's always seemed like GW constantly screws over pure undivided for those legions like iron warriors, alpha legion, or night lords where they aren't very "chaotic" because you're missing out on a lot of what the codex offers unless you play loose with the fluff.

My friends laugh at me for having this dilemma but I'm can't help the fact I like to make sure armies got the background without feeling like I'm making excuses to justify power gaming choices that don't fit.

I mean I've always fully embraced the Chaos is full of hypocrites vibe. Of course the warband hates chaos but it's they're just using it if they bind a demon into a captured loyalists. It's no different than a putting it in a machine right. And oh they'll do the ritual for more power but this is just simple science. One act creates an effect in nature and n they don't hear the whispers and it's odd you say they've changed.

Alternatively this is a great opportunity to model a bunch of cyborg legionnaires to be counts as possessed to show Iron Warriors who were blessed but replaced the gifts with robot parts out of disgust. (As stated above). In the end though you can embrace that Chaos is not a monolith and different factions and warbands probably take less strict views on certain taboos.

Iron within, iron without - don't adorne the lies of the demons.
Use the beasts to methodically annihilate the corpse worshippers. Their bloodthirst will drive them ahead, as soon as they fall force their spirit into canons, leash the beasts and use their hatred as bullets against any fortress that is not willing to subjugate!

Hey all!

I know Vashtorr sucks and all, but I'm trying to come up with a mostly all Daemon Engine list to cram into a 'Cogs of Vashtorr' Army of Renown list.

Given that the meta is super killy know, the only way forward, imo, is to saturate the table with as many engines as possible.

Please consider the following two lists:




The main difference between the two is that the former list has a Brass Scorpion and Master of Possession. While the latter list swaps out the MoP with a DiscoLord and no Brass scorpion for even more engines.

1st list: 8 engines, including brass scorpion
2nd list. 10 engines, including suped up DiscoLord.

The idea, of course, is to take advantage of the army trait's exploding 6's to hit for the entire game.

Just as a warning, the Discordant is illegal since Vashtor locks you out of the CSM relics. No Ulocca for you.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just as a warning, the Discordant is illegal since Vashtor locks you out of the CSM relics. No Ulocca for you.

I don't think that's accurate-the Army Of Renown restrictions are:

-Everyone has to be TRAITORIS ASTARTES
-Warlord has to be Vashtorr. No named characters or Daemon Princes.
-No Berserkers, Noise Marines, Rubrics, or Plague Marines.

 JNAProductions wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just as a warning, the Discordant is illegal since Vashtor locks you out of the CSM relics. No Ulocca for you.

I don't think that's accurate-the Army Of Renown restrictions are:

-Everyone has to be TRAITORIS ASTARTES
-Warlord has to be Vashtorr. No named characters or Daemon Princes.
-No Berserkers, Noise Marines, Rubrics, or Plague Marines.

Oops, my bad. Thought it locked all the relics.

Nah, it just gives you a few extra. No LEGION Relics, but generic CSM ones can be used.

Consider the following for cogs: the warlord trait gaze of the gods can override the normal condition that CSM in it never get Let the Galaxy Burn, and instead get all three effects at all times.

so while vashtorr is locked to your primary warlord, blender lords are still more than available. (or comboing it with warp's malice if you want a surprise heavy bolter)

 WindstormSCR wrote:
Consider the following for cogs: the warlord trait gaze of the gods can override the normal condition that CSM in it never get Let the Galaxy Burn, and instead get all three effects at all times.

so while vashtorr is locked to your primary warlord, blender lords are still more than available. (or comboing it with warp's malice if you want a surprise heavy bolter)

That's a great idea!

Thinking of a Chaos Lord with hammer with that WLT and maybe G'holl'ax for those wound-locked characters.

 WindstormSCR wrote:
Consider the following for cogs: the warlord trait gaze of the gods can override the normal condition that CSM in it never get Let the Galaxy Burn, and instead get all three effects at all times.

so while vashtorr is locked to your primary warlord, blender lords are still more than available. (or comboing it with warp's malice if you want a surprise heavy bolter)

Why wouldnt CSM in cogs of vashtorr get let the galaxy burn ?

 p5freak wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
Consider the following for cogs: the warlord trait gaze of the gods can override the normal condition that CSM in it never get Let the Galaxy Burn, and instead get all three effects at all times.

so while vashtorr is locked to your primary warlord, blender lords are still more than available. (or comboing it with warp's malice if you want a surprise heavy bolter)

Why wouldnt CSM in cogs of vashtorr get let the galaxy burn ?

They don't benefit from it, save for +2 shots on Flamer weapons.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
Consider the following for cogs: the warlord trait gaze of the gods can override the normal condition that CSM in it never get Let the Galaxy Burn, and instead get all three effects at all times.

so while vashtorr is locked to your primary warlord, blender lords are still more than available. (or comboing it with warp's malice if you want a surprise heavy bolter)

Why wouldnt CSM in cogs of vashtorr get let the galaxy burn ?

They don't benefit from it, save for +2 shots on Flamer weapons.

What rule prevents them from getting let the galaxy burn ?

 p5freak wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
Consider the following for cogs: the warlord trait gaze of the gods can override the normal condition that CSM in it never get Let the Galaxy Burn, and instead get all three effects at all times.

so while vashtorr is locked to your primary warlord, blender lords are still more than available. (or comboing it with warp's malice if you want a surprise heavy bolter)

Why wouldnt CSM in cogs of vashtorr get let the galaxy burn ?

They don't benefit from it, save for +2 shots on Flamer weapons.

What rule prevents them from getting let the galaxy burn ?

I think the Vashtorr army basically says you don't get any of the Wanton rules, which the Flamer is explicitly not affected by since it's part of the general Galaxy rule itself? Is that the confusion?

Wow, thats true. I didnt see it under restrictions, where i expected it to be. Instead its "hidden" in the techinfernal loci ability.

Correct, but the WLT lets you sidestep that, which reduces some of the nastiest problems with that restriction.

I dont see how the WLT sidesteps that. If a rule says you get X and another you dont get X, then you dont get X.

Wayniac wrote:
I'm presently trying to decide between Iron Warriors and Word Bearers for CSM. My issue is that I like the look and fluff of both (IW slightly more), but I find it a cop out to try and justify things like possessed or daemonic allies in IW. I could but it feels "beardy" and making an excuse for the sake of the rules. On the flip side these things fit in perfectly in word bearers, which makes them a bit more tempting

It's always seemed like GW constantly screws over pure undivided for those legions like iron warriors, alpha legion, or night lords where they aren't very "chaotic" because you're missing out on a lot of what the codex offers unless you play loose with the fluff.

My friends laugh at me for having this dilemma but I'm can't help the fact I like to make sure armies got the background without feeling like I'm making excuses to justify power gaming choices that don't fit.

I literally had this exact same dilemma so I settled on Word Bearers for 40k and Iron Warriors for 30k. So far I'm really happy with my decision.

 p5freak wrote:
I dont see how the WLT sidesteps that. If a rule says you get X and another you dont get X, then you dont get X.

It's a conflict though, right?

The WLT in question states:

Each time this WARLORD makes an attack, it is considered to be engaged in Wanton Slaughter, Wanton Destruction and Wanton Massacre.

Yet the Legion in question states:

If this unit does not have the DAEMON ENGINE keyword, it is never considered to be engaged in Wanton Destruction, Wanton Massacre and Wanton Slaughter.

To your point, one rule says "it is considered..." and the other says "it is never considered...".

The thing we have to keep in mind, is that we should fall back on what is permitted.

So, I think you're right in that the legion ability 'TECHNINFERNAL FOCI' forbids units of being in engaged in Wanton Destruction, Wanton Massacre and Wanton Slaughter if the unit type isn't a Daemon Engine. Ergo, the WLT in question only grants the warlord the 4+ invulnerable.

I'd play it specific trumps general - it's a well-established maxim. WLT (single unit) supersedes Legion (army) trait.

Noctilith Crown in 10th edition yay or nay?

4++ aura for units wholy within 9" against alphastrikes.
Cover for vehicles.

Yes it can explode with MW but only within 6" (aura ins 9").

There are no restrictions in 1-th for placing Fortifications during deployment? No 3" away from terrain features as in 9th ?

Anyone have thoughts on 4 man Obliterator squad with mark of Tz? Lethal hits with their big gun on 5+ could be good, but even better is the fact that you can resurrect one of them (and heal 3 wounds) every turn. With how tank-y they are this seems like it could be a real issue for your opponent.

I had the same thought on the oblits; they might be the tankiest model you can revive like that in the game? I'm gonna try to run an experimental battleshock-based list on Saturday that I don't have much faith in but also has 4+2 oblits in it so I'll see how practical that is.

Cool look forward to hearing results

Game didn't go well, conceded before the oblits hit the table. After the game we figured out that 6 oblits have close to zero chance of actually killing a single Rogal Dorn tank so. That didn't feel great.