I've had a high degree of success with a Black Legion 2K MSU-mixed list, so I thought I'd post here. Its unconventional, but it does use a few things I've seen elsewhere.
1) Mobile gunline. This part consists of 2 x 5 man Plague Marine units, with plasma, blight launcher, cleaver, flail, and plasma and power fist on champ; 2 x 5 man Havocs, one with Mark of Slaanesh, all lascannons and one unmarked with 2 x lascannons and 2 x autocannons; a Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch, wings and sword; Exalted Champ who gets the Eternal Vendetta and Trusted War Leader traits through strat; and finally a 10 man Legionnaire unit with Mark of Tzeentch, balefire tome, autocannon and heavy bolter.
Everything starts out of sight and jumps out to shoot. I spend 5 command points on the Legionnaires: one for daemon shell, one for remain stationary and one to turn them into Emperor's Children, finally two to shoot twice. With Eternal Vendetta its a mini hail of doom and has deleted a number of big things including: Silent King, 3 x Redemptors, 2 x Tank Commanders, 9 Leviathan Tyranid Warriors etc. It can get perfect angles and board coverage with warp time (from Prince), who can then do a psychic action with strat. Alternatively, I spend the last command point to get two extra hits from the lascannon Havocs, or to Veterans Rubrics (see below). The Plague Marines and Havocs lay down a hail of suppressive fire, with rerolls from Prince and Champ. If the mobile gunline gets charged or shot at its resilient enough for most things to bounce, and it then gets counterpunched by melee Plague Marines, Prince and Champ. I keep Diabolic Strength in the block somewhere, to put on Exalted Champ, or a cleaver Plague Marine.
2) Harrying units. This is a 10 man Rubric unit, all with flamers in a Rhino; 8 man bike unit with Mark of Khorne, fist on Champ and flamers; Venomcrawler and Heldrake. The Rubrics hop out of Rhino, potentially warp time and can flame a unit, I can Veterans them if I don't do a couple of the previous things (Havocs extra hits + psychic action etc.). Once they're out of the Rhino, it can taxi the Plague Marines later. The bikes are there for chaff clearance, counter charging, can deny with the Khorne strat and Despoil Dominions. Venomcrawler adds psychic support, a little shooting and counter charging. Similar for the Heldrake, but that also gives me anti-flyer, in addition to the Prince, and options for move blocking.
3) Action units. 2 x 10 man Cultist units. These move in behind the others for Banners, Despoil Dominions etc.
Some things about the list.
Its tougher than it looks. Units are small, can be hidden easily and there is a lot of models, making it possible to block out flyers and deep strikes. After the mini-hail of doom, Rubrics, Havocs and other elements have shot, the return fire is minimized and has to be spread quite thin. Everything is either/and/or T5, Disgustingly Resilient or potential for equivalent, has Mark of Nurgle, has Mark of Tzeentch, can get 4++ and has Armour of Contempt etc., so there are no easy targets except the Cultists, which are often ignored. The army leans a bit into territory usually associated with Marines, shooting, mobility but can deliver a very nasty melee counterpunch and has decent psychic defense.
It runs counter to the idea of having a big, immobile Terminator brick which is slow and lacks damage output without character support, instead it relies on distributed, high damage output, hard to kill units that force the opponent to split attention. The characters are there to enhance damage output across the board, rather than focusing on buffing one big unit and are able to do some damage in melee, psychic and shooting.
Objectives. I usually take Despoil Dominions, Bring it Down/No Prisoners, and one of the psychic ones, depending on opponent. So far, I've found that the damage output, versatility and mobility of the list has totally offset the weaker faction secondary's. One of two things happen: 1) the list pulls ahead early and the opponent can't recover easily 2) both armies bounce a bit and get pulled into a slow grind, where the Despoil Dominions objective helps as it can deny opponent's actions and can be performed by the Bikes.
Samii wrote: I've had a high degree of success with a Black Legion 2K MSU-mixed list, so I thought I'd post here. Its unconventional, but it does use a few things I've seen elsewhere.
1) Mobile gunline. This part consists of 2 x 5 man Plague Marine units, with plasma, blight launcher, cleaver, flail, and plasma and power fist on champ; 2 x 5 man Havocs, one with Mark of Slaanesh, all lascannons and one unmarked with 2 x lascannons and 2 x autocannons; a Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch, wings and sword; Exalted Champ who gets the Eternal Vendetta and Trusted War Leader traits through strat; and finally a 10 man Legionnaire unit with Mark of Tzeentch, balefire tome, autocannon and heavy bolter.
Everything starts out of sight and jumps out to shoot. I spend 5 command points on the Legionnaires: one for daemon shell, one for remain stationary and one to turn them into Emperor's Children, finally two to shoot twice. With Eternal Vendetta its a mini hail of doom and has deleted a number of big things including: Silent King, 3 x Redemptors, 2 x Tank Commanders, 9 Leviathan Tyranid Warriors etc. It can get perfect angles and board coverage with warp time (from Prince), who can then do a psychic action with strat. Alternatively, I spend the last command point to get two extra hits from the lascannon Havocs, or to Veterans Rubrics (see below). The Plague Marines and Havocs lay down a hail of suppressive fire, with rerolls from Prince and Champ. If the mobile gunline gets charged or shot at its resilient enough for most things to bounce, and it then gets counterpunched by melee Plague Marines, Prince and Champ. I keep Diabolic Strength in the block somewhere, to put on Exalted Champ, or a cleaver Plague Marine.
2) Harrying units. This is a 10 man Rubric unit, all with flamers in a Rhino; 8 man bike unit with Mark of Khorne, fist on Champ and flamers; Venomcrawler and Heldrake. The Rubrics hop out of Rhino, potentially warp time and can flame a unit, I can Veterans them if I don't do a couple of the previous things (Havocs extra hits + psychic action etc.). Once they're out of the Rhino, it can taxi the Plague Marines later. The bikes are there for chaff clearance, counter charging, can deny with the Khorne strat and Despoil Dominions. Venomcrawler adds psychic support, a little shooting and counter charging. Similar for the Heldrake, but that also gives me anti-flyer, in addition to the Prince, and options for move blocking.
3) Action units. 2 x 10 man Cultist units. These move in behind the others for Banners, Despoil Dominions etc.
Some things about the list.
Its tougher than it looks. Units are small, can be hidden easily and there is a lot of models, making it possible to block out flyers and deep strikes. After the mini-hail of doom, Rubrics, Havocs and other elements have shot, the return fire is minimized and has to be spread quite thin. Everything is either/and/or T5, Disgustingly Resilient or potential for equivalent, has Mark of Nurgle, has Mark of Tzeentch, can get 4++ and has Armour of Contempt etc., so there are no easy targets except the Cultists, which are often ignored. The army leans a bit into territory usually associated with Marines, shooting, mobility but can deliver a very nasty melee counterpunch and has decent psychic defense.
It runs counter to the idea of having a big, immobile Terminator brick which is slow and lacks damage output without character support, instead it relies on distributed, high damage output, hard to kill units that force the opponent to split attention. The characters are there to enhance damage output across the board, rather than focusing on buffing one big unit and are able to do some damage in melee, psychic and shooting.
Objectives. I usually take Despoil Dominions, Bring it Down/No Prisoners, and one of the psychic ones, depending on opponent. So far, I've found that the damage output, versatility and mobility of the list has totally offset the weaker faction secondary's. One of two things happen: 1) the list pulls ahead early and the opponent can't recover easily 2) both armies bounce a bit and get pulled into a slow grind, where the Despoil Dominions objective helps as it can deny opponent's actions and can be performed by the Bikes.
Best,
Samii.
And apologies for the giant post
Hmmm, very interesting! And shows that there is definitely more than one way to play CSM!
What tip, trick, or other form of skullduggery can I use to get a black legion rhino full of berzerkers into my opponents deployment zone for a 2nd turn disembark and charge?
The best thought I’ve come up with is: command phase, spend CP to use “confluence of traitors”, give the rhino the red corsairs advance and charge ability, move 12”, advance, then charge the most elite troublesome unit I can find so I can’t be shot at (though they could fall back). Then voila, turn two, disembark the zerkers and do the real damage. Don’t think I’d be above popping smoke either to give the rhino a chance to survive…. Thoughts?
EviscerationPlague wrote: Why would you use Berserkers in a Black Legion list though? Chosen literally do what they do but better.
Berserkers are cheaper and have more attacks.
Chosen can get up to AP-4, if they're Khornate and have an Icon, though that's less relevant than getting the first points of AP through.
BL Chosen do get +1 to-hit on the charge, at least, while Berserkers don't benefit.
So, comparing the two...
Ten Chosen, Mark Of Khorne And Icon-270 Points
41 attacks
205/6 or 34.17 hits at S6 AP-4 D1
Ten Berserkers, Icon-225 Points
51 attacks
34 hits at S6 AP-3 D1
Chosen get less than a single extra hit, while costing 45 points more. The additional AP would matter most against a 2+ model with no Invuln or Armor of Contempt, where it increases damage by 25% relative to the Berserkers. (But what 2+ armor models with no invulns are meta?)
Against a T7 or higher, 2+ save (or 3+ with Armor of Contempt, which feels a little more realistic) those Chosen do 9.49 damage. Berserkers get 7.56 damage, which makes the Chosen SLIGHTLY more efficient at killing per point. Very slightly.
Checking against a T9 2+ with Armor of Contempt...
Chosen do 7.59.
Berserkers do 5.67.
Chosen are about 10% better here.
Notably, this assumes you get the charge off-otherwise, Chosen hit on a 3+ (not a 2+) and that drops their damage by 20%. So even against an Astartes Land Raider, Chosen (6.07 damage, 44.48 points per damage) do worse than Berserkers (5.67 damage, 39.68 points per damage) at least on an efficiency level.
In other words, if ALL you need is killing power, Berserkers are a better bang for your buck in most situations. But the Chosen's extra wound per model probably makes them the overall better choice.
Then again, maybe Kangarupe just likes Berserkers, and wants to include them. In which case, a Rhino is a solid idea.
Edit: Unrelated, but I have a list I'm trying to determine a Legion for. Find it here.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Why would you use Berserkers in a Black Legion list though? Chosen literally do what they do but better.
Berserkers are cheaper and have more attacks.
Chosen can get up to AP-4, if they're Khornate and have an Icon, though that's less relevant than getting the first points of AP through.
BL Chosen do get +1 to-hit on the charge, at least, while Berserkers don't benefit.
So, comparing the two...
Ten Chosen, Mark Of Khorne And Icon-270 Points
41 attacks
205/6 or 34.17 hits at S6 AP-4 D1
Ten Berserkers, Icon-225 Points
51 attacks
34 hits at S6 AP-3 D1
Chosen get less than a single extra hit, while costing 45 points more. The additional AP would matter most against a 2+ model with no Invuln or Armor of Contempt, where it increases damage by 25% relative to the Berserkers. (But what 2+ armor models with no invulns are meta?)
Against a T7 or higher, 2+ save (or 3+ with Armor of Contempt, which feels a little more realistic) those Chosen do 9.49 damage. Berserkers get 7.56 damage, which makes the Chosen SLIGHTLY more efficient at killing per point. Very slightly.
Checking against a T9 2+ with Armor of Contempt...
Chosen do 7.59.
Berserkers do 5.67.
Chosen are about 10% better here.
Notably, this assumes you get the charge off-otherwise, Chosen hit on a 3+ (not a 2+) and that drops their damage by 20%. So even against an Astartes Land Raider, Chosen (6.07 damage, 44.48 points per damage) do worse than Berserkers (5.67 damage, 39.68 points per damage) at least on an efficiency level.
In other words, if ALL you need is killing power, Berserkers are a better bang for your buck in most situations. But the Chosen's extra wound per model probably makes them the overall better choice.
Then again, maybe Kangarupe just likes Berserkers, and wants to include them. In which case, a Rhino is a solid idea.
Edit: Unrelated, but I have a list I'm trying to determine a Legion for. Find it here.
You also forget the Chosen have extra shooting and 2 of those 10 get a free Power Fist now.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Why would you use Berserkers in a Black Legion list though? Chosen literally do what they do but better.
Berserkers are cheaper and have more attacks.
Chosen can get up to AP-4, if they're Khornate and have an Icon, though that's less relevant than getting the first points of AP through.
BL Chosen do get +1 to-hit on the charge, at least, while Berserkers don't benefit.
So, comparing the two...
Ten Chosen, Mark Of Khorne And Icon-270 Points
41 attacks
205/6 or 34.17 hits at S6 AP-4 D1
Ten Berserkers, Icon-225 Points
51 attacks
34 hits at S6 AP-3 D1
Chosen get less than a single extra hit, while costing 45 points more. The additional AP would matter most against a 2+ model with no Invuln or Armor of Contempt, where it increases damage by 25% relative to the Berserkers. (But what 2+ armor models with no invulns are meta?)
Against a T7 or higher, 2+ save (or 3+ with Armor of Contempt, which feels a little more realistic) those Chosen do 9.49 damage. Berserkers get 7.56 damage, which makes the Chosen SLIGHTLY more efficient at killing per point. Very slightly.
Checking against a T9 2+ with Armor of Contempt...
Chosen do 7.59.
Berserkers do 5.67.
Chosen are about 10% better here.
Notably, this assumes you get the charge off-otherwise, Chosen hit on a 3+ (not a 2+) and that drops their damage by 20%. So even against an Astartes Land Raider, Chosen (6.07 damage, 44.48 points per damage) do worse than Berserkers (5.67 damage, 39.68 points per damage) at least on an efficiency level.
In other words, if ALL you need is killing power, Berserkers are a better bang for your buck in most situations. But the Chosen's extra wound per model probably makes them the overall better choice.
Then again, maybe Kangarupe just likes Berserkers, and wants to include them. In which case, a Rhino is a solid idea.
Edit: Unrelated, but I have a list I'm trying to determine a Legion for. Find it here.
You also forget the Chosen have extra shooting and 2 of those 10 get a free Power Fist now.
Shooting is negligible unless you pay for upgrades. 20 Bolt shots is better than 10, but neither is that big a deal.
The Powerfists do help, though. If you want a comparison against some targets, I can run the numbers of Berserkers versus Chosen.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Why would you use Berserkers in a Black Legion list though? Chosen literally do what they do but better.
Berserkers are cheaper and have more attacks.
Chosen can get up to AP-4, if they're Khornate and have an Icon, though that's less relevant than getting the first points of AP through.
BL Chosen do get +1 to-hit on the charge, at least, while Berserkers don't benefit.
So, comparing the two...
Ten Chosen, Mark Of Khorne And Icon-270 Points
41 attacks
205/6 or 34.17 hits at S6 AP-4 D1
Ten Berserkers, Icon-225 Points
51 attacks
34 hits at S6 AP-3 D1
Chosen get less than a single extra hit, while costing 45 points more. The additional AP would matter most against a 2+ model with no Invuln or Armor of Contempt, where it increases damage by 25% relative to the Berserkers. (But what 2+ armor models with no invulns are meta?)
Against a T7 or higher, 2+ save (or 3+ with Armor of Contempt, which feels a little more realistic) those Chosen do 9.49 damage. Berserkers get 7.56 damage, which makes the Chosen SLIGHTLY more efficient at killing per point. Very slightly.
Checking against a T9 2+ with Armor of Contempt...
Chosen do 7.59.
Berserkers do 5.67.
Chosen are about 10% better here.
Notably, this assumes you get the charge off-otherwise, Chosen hit on a 3+ (not a 2+) and that drops their damage by 20%. So even against an Astartes Land Raider, Chosen (6.07 damage, 44.48 points per damage) do worse than Berserkers (5.67 damage, 39.68 points per damage) at least on an efficiency level.
In other words, if ALL you need is killing power, Berserkers are a better bang for your buck in most situations. But the Chosen's extra wound per model probably makes them the overall better choice.
Then again, maybe Kangarupe just likes Berserkers, and wants to include them. In which case, a Rhino is a solid idea.
Edit: Unrelated, but I have a list I'm trying to determine a Legion for. Find it here.
You also forget the Chosen have extra shooting and 2 of those 10 get a free Power Fist now.
Shooting is negligible unless you pay for upgrades. 20 Bolt shots is better than 10, but neither is that big a deal.
The Powerfists do help, though. If you want a comparison against some targets, I can run the numbers of Berserkers versus Chosen.
20 Bolt Shots that, assuming Black Legion, hit on 2+.
ALSO Chosen aren't perpetually stuck with MoK. MoS is also a valid option, especially if you don't go the route of Black Legion since you can just get the 2+ to hit from the Icon.
Yes. 20 shots that hit on a 2+ and explode on 6s average 20 hits, which does 3 wounds to Marines out of cover.
If your nearest target is in cover, you're either hitting on a 3+ (and doing 2 wounds to another MEQ squad out of cover) or they're saving on a 2+, meaning you don't even kill one Marine on average.
And, don't forget the Berserkers still have Pistols, so the actual difference in damage is smaller than the total damage dealt by Chosen.
It's not NOTHING-but it's negligible unless you buy better guns.
Also, I still think Chosen are the superior option-just not necessarily killier per point. The main draw is the 3rd wound, which massively ups their durability against anything with less than consistent 3 damage.
JNAProductions wrote: Yes. 20 shots that hit on a 2+ and explode on 6s average 20 hits, which does 3 wounds to Marines out of cover.
If your nearest target is in cover, you're either hitting on a 3+ (and doing 2 wounds to another MEQ squad out of cover) or they're saving on a 2+, meaning you don't even kill one Marine on average.
And, don't forget the Berserkers still have Pistols, so the actual difference in damage is smaller than the total damage dealt by Chosen.
It's not NOTHING-but it's negligible unless you buy better guns.
Also, I still think Chosen are the superior option-just not necessarily killier per point. The main draw is the 3rd wound, which massively ups their durability against anything with less than consistent 3 damage.
ALSO 40 Points is 4 Combi-Plasma.
I don't even like Chosen, but they legit take away the role of Berserker Marines simply BECAUSE they get Legion traits.
Also, Mark of Slaanesh doesn't help Black Legion Chosen on the charge (except for Power Fist ones). It helps them a lot next turn, if their target survives, though.
Squads are 10 men each, only upgrade is an Icon on the 'Zerkers, and MoK, Icon, and two Fists for the Chosen.
Berserkers have 51 attacks
34 hits at S6 AP-3 D1
Chosen have 33 attacks
165/6 or 55/2 or 27.5 hits at S6 AP-4 D1
and
6 attacks
4 hits at S9 AP-4 D2
Against MEQ Berserkers do 15.11 wounds
Chosen do 2.78 PF wounds and 15.28 other wounds
...
Huh. You know, with the BL Trait and the bonus AP, they actually come out ahead, on a model to model basis. Didn't quite expect that.
Iggy88 wrote: How do chosen and berserkers compare to possessed, the other melee elite unit? I guess I'm wondering why I'd take chosen over possessed. For the AP?
In the chosen vs zerker debate I always like to mention Khorne Legionaries as an alternative. For 220pts you get 10 Legionaries, 8 with Astartes Chainsword which end up at 4 attacks S5 AP-2 on the charge. In addition you get a champ with 4 PF attacks and a guy with 3 heavy chainaxe attacks. This squat can get +1 to wound and ,fight again at the end of combat phase’ from stratagems. But yeah, the points for a squad of chosen is not so far away and provides access to better shooting and, more important, 3W models
Berserker Marines are another Elite melee option in a codex with already a ton of Elite melee options, and one that doesn't benefit from Legion Traits.
What tip, trick, or other form of skullduggery can I use to get a black legion rhino full of berzerkers into my opponents deployment zone for a 2nd turn disembark and charge?
The best thought I’ve come up with is: command phase, spend CP to use “confluence of traitors”, give the rhino the red corsairs advance and charge ability, move 12”, advance, then charge the most elite troublesome unit I can find so I can’t be shot at (though they could fall back). Then voila, turn two, disembark the zerkers and do the real damage. Don’t think I’d be above popping smoke either to give the rhino a chance to survive…. Thoughts?
No tricks needed, just save the rhino to deploy as one of your last units so that it can line up a fairly straight path across the board.
Turn 1:
Advance Rhino 12+D6" (average 15.5")
Turn2:
Disembark unit 3"
Move unit 6"
Charge unit 2D6" (average 7")
Total average move 31.5", which is well into enemy DZ on many typical deployment options. Also, take note of the terrain set up as some features increase engagement range, and if possible try to line up the infantry to disembark and move through breachable terrain as you might get lucky on an unsuspecting opponent expecting the transport to have to go around.
Samii wrote: I've had a high degree of success with a Black Legion 2K MSU-mixed list, so I thought I'd post here. Its unconventional, but it does use a few things I've seen elsewhere.
1) Mobile gunline. This part consists of 2 x 5 man Plague Marine units, with plasma, blight launcher, cleaver, flail, and plasma and power fist on champ; 2 x 5 man Havocs, one with Mark of Slaanesh, all lascannons and one unmarked with 2 x lascannons and 2 x autocannons; a Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch, wings and sword; Exalted Champ who gets the Eternal Vendetta and Trusted War Leader traits through strat; and finally a 10 man Legionnaire unit with Mark of Tzeentch, balefire tome, autocannon and heavy bolter.
Everything starts out of sight and jumps out to shoot. I spend 5 command points on the Legionnaires: one for daemon shell, one for remain stationary and one to turn them into Emperor's Children, finally two to shoot twice. With Eternal Vendetta its a mini hail of doom and has deleted a number of big things including: Silent King, 3 x Redemptors, 2 x Tank Commanders, 9 Leviathan Tyranid Warriors etc. It can get perfect angles and board coverage with warp time (from Prince), who can then do a psychic action with strat. Alternatively, I spend the last command point to get two extra hits from the lascannon Havocs, or to Veterans Rubrics (see below). The Plague Marines and Havocs lay down a hail of suppressive fire, with rerolls from Prince and Champ. If the mobile gunline gets charged or shot at its resilient enough for most things to bounce, and it then gets counterpunched by melee Plague Marines, Prince and Champ. I keep Diabolic Strength in the block somewhere, to put on Exalted Champ, or a cleaver Plague Marine.
2) Harrying units. This is a 10 man Rubric unit, all with flamers in a Rhino; 8 man bike unit with Mark of Khorne, fist on Champ and flamers; Venomcrawler and Heldrake. The Rubrics hop out of Rhino, potentially warp time and can flame a unit, I can Veterans them if I don't do a couple of the previous things (Havocs extra hits + psychic action etc.). Once they're out of the Rhino, it can taxi the Plague Marines later. The bikes are there for chaff clearance, counter charging, can deny with the Khorne strat and Despoil Dominions. Venomcrawler adds psychic support, a little shooting and counter charging. Similar for the Heldrake, but that also gives me anti-flyer, in addition to the Prince, and options for move blocking.
3) Action units. 2 x 10 man Cultist units. These move in behind the others for Banners, Despoil Dominions etc.
Some things about the list.
Its tougher than it looks. Units are small, can be hidden easily and there is a lot of models, making it possible to block out flyers and deep strikes. After the mini-hail of doom, Rubrics, Havocs and other elements have shot, the return fire is minimized and has to be spread quite thin. Everything is either/and/or T5, Disgustingly Resilient or potential for equivalent, has Mark of Nurgle, has Mark of Tzeentch, can get 4++ and has Armour of Contempt etc., so there are no easy targets except the Cultists, which are often ignored. The army leans a bit into territory usually associated with Marines, shooting, mobility but can deliver a very nasty melee counterpunch and has decent psychic defense.
It runs counter to the idea of having a big, immobile Terminator brick which is slow and lacks damage output without character support, instead it relies on distributed, high damage output, hard to kill units that force the opponent to split attention. The characters are there to enhance damage output across the board, rather than focusing on buffing one big unit and are able to do some damage in melee, psychic and shooting.
Objectives. I usually take Despoil Dominions, Bring it Down/No Prisoners, and one of the psychic ones, depending on opponent. So far, I've found that the damage output, versatility and mobility of the list has totally offset the weaker faction secondary's. One of two things happen: 1) the list pulls ahead early and the opponent can't recover easily 2) both armies bounce a bit and get pulled into a slow grind, where the Despoil Dominions objective helps as it can deny opponent's actions and can be performed by the Bikes.
Best, Samii.
And apologies for the giant post
Hmmm, very interesting! And shows that there is definitely more than one way to play CSM!
I've tried a couple of variations on the list, including dropping Exalted Champ for a Master of Possession, taking a smaller Bike unit and adding a Chaos Predator, but all-in-all the original has been the most successful configuration and yes; as you say I think there is still a lot in the codex to unpack, in terms of combinations.
So with Chosen getting access to a hidden Power Fist for free, I decided to rewrite my initial list with the Red Corsair Raptors and replace them. Here we go:
HQ:
×1 Huron Blackheart
×1 Lord Discordant
. Baleflamer
. Warlord - Unholy Fortitude, Relic - Gorget
. MoT ×1 Master of Possession
. Aspiring Lord - Hatred Incarnate, Relic - Ghollax
. MoN . Powers - Pact of Flesh, Mutated Invigoration
Troops:
×10 Cultists
. Heavy Stubber
×10 Cultists
. Heavy Stubber
×10 Cultists
. Heavy Stubber
Elites:
×6 Terminators
. 2 Power Fist, 2 Combi-Melta
. 1 Power Fist, 1 Combi-Flamer
. 1 Chainfist, 1 Combi-Flamer
. 2 Accursed Weapons
. Trophies of the Long War - The Black Mace, 1 Combi-Plasma
. MoN ×8 Possessed
. Trophies of the Long War - Black Rune
. Icon
×6 Chosen
. 2 Combi-Melta, 1 Power Fist
. Champion w/ 2 Accursed Weapons
. MoS, Icon
×6 Chosen
. 2 Combi-Melta, 1 Power Fist
. Champion w/ 2 Accursed Weapons
. MoS, Icon
×1 Master of Executions
. Aspiring Lord - Gaze of the God's, Relic - Ulocca
Heavy Support:
×3 Maulerfiends w/ Lasher Tendrils
List should make sense overall. Cultists hang back and take pot shots, literally everyone else advances up the board and takes advantage of being W3. I don't necessarily have to worry about a random Deep Strike near the Cultists for a whole turn as Red Corsairs would stop a unit from getting that far with their strat, and then next turn a Maulerfiend can advance and charge far enough to cover them for their protection. No extr need for Objective Secured as dead models don't hold objectives, and Red Corsairs each count as two dudes.
What tip, trick, or other form of skullduggery can I use to get a black legion rhino full of berzerkers into my opponents deployment zone for a 2nd turn disembark and charge?
The best thought I’ve come up with is: command phase, spend CP to use “confluence of traitors”, give the rhino the red corsairs advance and charge ability, move 12”, advance, then charge the most elite troublesome unit I can find so I can’t be shot at (though they could fall back). Then voila, turn two, disembark the zerkers and do the real damage. Don’t think I’d be above popping smoke either to give the rhino a chance to survive…. Thoughts?
No tricks needed, just save the rhino to deploy as one of your last units so that it can line up a fairly straight path across the board.
Turn 1:
Advance Rhino 12+D6" (average 15.5")
Turn2:
Disembark unit 3"
Move unit 6"
Charge unit 2D6" (average 7")
Total average move 31.5", which is well into enemy DZ on many typical deployment options. Also, take note of the terrain set up as some features increase engagement range, and if possible try to line up the infantry to disembark and move through breachable terrain as you might get lucky on an unsuspecting opponent expecting the transport to have to go around.
And if you have them, chosen are a bit better.
Thanks all! Did not expect this to turn into a ‘zerker v. Chosen discussion. The ‘zerkers are intended to be a suicide team with lots of hits for greater probability. Once they’re in the ‘belly of the beast” I’m expecting them to come under a colossal host of fire from all the stationary rear troops. I wouldn’t expect either choice to stay alive long, so I would rather spend less points (though not by much I’ll agree!)
This is a great idea though, last to deploy, I’m definitely going to implement that little bit of trickery. Although I do like the idea of engaging something on the 1st turn, forcing a fall back if my opponent wants to get any shots off!
What tip, trick, or other form of skullduggery can I use to get a black legion rhino full of berzerkers into my opponents deployment zone for a 2nd turn disembark and charge?
The best thought I’ve come up with is: command phase, spend CP to use “confluence of traitors”, give the rhino the red corsairs advance and charge ability, move 12”, advance, then charge the most elite troublesome unit I can find so I can’t be shot at (though they could fall back). Then voila, turn two, disembark the zerkers and do the real damage. Don’t think I’d be above popping smoke either to give the rhino a chance to survive…. Thoughts?
No tricks needed, just save the rhino to deploy as one of your last units so that it can line up a fairly straight path across the board.
Turn 1:
Advance Rhino 12+D6" (average 15.5")
Turn2:
Disembark unit 3"
Move unit 6"
Charge unit 2D6" (average 7")
Total average move 31.5", which is well into enemy DZ on many typical deployment options. Also, take note of the terrain set up as some features increase engagement range, and if possible try to line up the infantry to disembark and move through breachable terrain as you might get lucky on an unsuspecting opponent expecting the transport to have to go around.
And if you have them, chosen are a bit better.
Thanks all! Did not expect this to turn into a ‘zerker v. Chosen discussion.
It's important to discuss though, because they're an Elite choice for melee in a codex with a bunch of Elite choices for melee. Ultimately, without benefitting from Legion traits, the question becomes if they're even worth having a unit entry to begin with. At least for Plague Marines and Rubric Marines, they sorta fill roles otherwise. Even with Black Legion, you'd still be better off just using those Berserker Marines as Chosen, and quite frankly nobody would fault you for it.
What tip, trick, or other form of skullduggery can I use to get a black legion rhino full of berzerkers into my opponents deployment zone for a 2nd turn disembark and charge?
The best thought I’ve come up with is: command phase, spend CP to use “confluence of traitors”, give the rhino the red corsairs advance and charge ability, move 12”, advance, then charge the most elite troublesome unit I can find so I can’t be shot at (though they could fall back). Then voila, turn two, disembark the zerkers and do the real damage. Don’t think I’d be above popping smoke either to give the rhino a chance to survive…. Thoughts?
No tricks needed, just save the rhino to deploy as one of your last units so that it can line up a fairly straight path across the board.
Turn 1:
Advance Rhino 12+D6" (average 15.5")
Turn2:
Disembark unit 3"
Move unit 6"
Charge unit 2D6" (average 7")
Total average move 31.5", which is well into enemy DZ on many typical deployment options. Also, take note of the terrain set up as some features increase engagement range, and if possible try to line up the infantry to disembark and move through breachable terrain as you might get lucky on an unsuspecting opponent expecting the transport to have to go around.
And if you have them, chosen are a bit better.
Thanks all! Did not expect this to turn into a ‘zerker v. Chosen discussion.
It's important to discuss though, because they're an Elite choice for melee in a codex with a bunch of Elite choices for melee. Ultimately, without benefitting from Legion traits, the question becomes if they're even worth having a unit entry to begin with. At least for Plague Marines and Rubric Marines, they sorta fill roles otherwise. Even with Black Legion, you'd still be better off just using those Berserker Marines as Chosen, and quite frankly nobody would fault you for it.
Chosen are objectively better right now, mainly from the extra wound and legion trait - it will likely all change whenever the WE codex drops and there is a new boxset/datasheet for Berzerkers.
Quick question on Berzerkers though while they are on topic - if they have an icon are they AP-3 or AP-4? Mark of Khorne and an icon gives an improvement of 1, but the index World Eaters datasheet also lists the Beraerker's icon alone as giving an improvement of 1.
You guys have convinced me, I’m going to run my berzerkers as chosen and see how it plays out. I honestly didn’t know (or forgot) that even in a black legion list with the keyword, zerkers still don’t get the BL trait… this makes a world of difference …especially when they’ll be fighting the closest enemy with my plan. Thank you all!
The benefit of being able to put them in a rhino is huge too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another question for you all though. I just purchased 2 Contemptor Dreadnoughts to run the Twin Volkite Culverin load out. To me, the BL legion trait of +1 to hit, and the wanton exploding 6s with these dreads will make a vicious combination, no to mention they’re core, so they can take advantage of all kinds of lovely HQ buffs. I’m not the best with stratagem management, so they CP expenditure doesn’t bother me *too* much. So I ask: did I make a mistake? Am I overestimating their potential effectiveness?
After three games Im reaching the point in which my BL Army can deliver a great punch... I just have to learn how to score Nephilin Primaries and Secundaries... Nevertheless Im very happy with the CODEX, its very temathic.
Vatsetis wrote: After three games Im reaching the point in which my BL Army can deliver a great punch... I just have to learn how to score Nephilin Primaries and Secundaries... Nevertheless Im very happy with the CODEX, its very temathic.
I find the BL secondaries to be fairly useless. I have been running despoil dominions but have found most of my opponents doing raise the banners or other actionable secondaries on their back line, and mostly just trying to push me off objectives, but not performing actions (nullifying that particular secondary’s benefit). Haven’t tried the one where you devote quarters to the gods, but might see how that works out.
Vatsetis wrote: After three games Im reaching the point in which my BL Army can deliver a great punch... I just have to learn how to score Nephilin Primaries and Secundaries... Nevertheless Im very happy with the CODEX, its very temathic.
This codex is NOT thematic, it's an inconsistent mess LOL
Samii wrote: I've had a high degree of success with a Black Legion 2K MSU-mixed list, so I thought I'd post here. Its unconventional, but it does use a few things I've seen elsewhere.
1) Mobile gunline. This part consists of 2 x 5 man Plague Marine units, with plasma, blight launcher, cleaver, flail, and plasma and power fist on champ; 2 x 5 man Havocs, one with Mark of Slaanesh, all lascannons and one unmarked with 2 x lascannons and 2 x autocannons; a Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch, wings and sword; Exalted Champ who gets the Eternal Vendetta and Trusted War Leader traits through strat; and finally a 10 man Legionnaire unit with Mark of Tzeentch, balefire tome, autocannon and heavy bolter.
Everything starts out of sight and jumps out to shoot. I spend 5 command points on the Legionnaires: one for daemon shell, one for remain stationary and one to turn them into Emperor's Children, finally two to shoot twice. With Eternal Vendetta its a mini hail of doom and has deleted a number of big things including: Silent King, 3 x Redemptors, 2 x Tank Commanders, 9 Leviathan Tyranid Warriors etc. It can get perfect angles and board coverage with warp time (from Prince), who can then do a psychic action with strat. Alternatively, I spend the last command point to get two extra hits from the lascannon Havocs, or to Veterans Rubrics (see below). The Plague Marines and Havocs lay down a hail of suppressive fire, with rerolls from Prince and Champ. If the mobile gunline gets charged or shot at its resilient enough for most things to bounce, and it then gets counterpunched by melee Plague Marines, Prince and Champ. I keep Diabolic Strength in the block somewhere, to put on Exalted Champ, or a cleaver Plague Marine.
2) Harrying units. This is a 10 man Rubric unit, all with flamers in a Rhino; 8 man bike unit with Mark of Khorne, fist on Champ and flamers; Venomcrawler and Heldrake. The Rubrics hop out of Rhino, potentially warp time and can flame a unit, I can Veterans them if I don't do a couple of the previous things (Havocs extra hits + psychic action etc.). Once they're out of the Rhino, it can taxi the Plague Marines later. The bikes are there for chaff clearance, counter charging, can deny with the Khorne strat and Despoil Dominions. Venomcrawler adds psychic support, a little shooting and counter charging. Similar for the Heldrake, but that also gives me anti-flyer, in addition to the Prince, and options for move blocking.
3) Action units. 2 x 10 man Cultist units. These move in behind the others for Banners, Despoil Dominions etc.
Some things about the list.
Its tougher than it looks. Units are small, can be hidden easily and there is a lot of models, making it possible to block out flyers and deep strikes. After the mini-hail of doom, Rubrics, Havocs and other elements have shot, the return fire is minimized and has to be spread quite thin. Everything is either/and/or T5, Disgustingly Resilient or potential for equivalent, has Mark of Nurgle, has Mark of Tzeentch, can get 4++ and has Armour of Contempt etc., so there are no easy targets except the Cultists, which are often ignored. The army leans a bit into territory usually associated with Marines, shooting, mobility but can deliver a very nasty melee counterpunch and has decent psychic defense.
It runs counter to the idea of having a big, immobile Terminator brick which is slow and lacks damage output without character support, instead it relies on distributed, high damage output, hard to kill units that force the opponent to split attention. The characters are there to enhance damage output across the board, rather than focusing on buffing one big unit and are able to do some damage in melee, psychic and shooting.
Objectives. I usually take Despoil Dominions, Bring it Down/No Prisoners, and one of the psychic ones, depending on opponent. So far, I've found that the damage output, versatility and mobility of the list has totally offset the weaker faction secondary's. One of two things happen: 1) the list pulls ahead early and the opponent can't recover easily 2) both armies bounce a bit and get pulled into a slow grind, where the Despoil Dominions objective helps as it can deny opponent's actions and can be performed by the Bikes.
Best,
Samii.
And apologies for the giant post
Thanks a lot for the Legionaire Trick. I'm a big fan of huge legionaire blobs with Iron Warriors in 8th edition with veterans and endless cacophony. And I couldn't think of a tactic to make them as good as in the old edition.
Could you post your full list. Like with battlescribe export. That would be much easier to grasp like where you stuffed Diabolic Strength or what you give the Legionaires as a psychic power.
Vatsetis wrote: After three games Im reaching the point in which my BL Army can deliver a great punch... I just have to learn how to score Nephilin Primaries and Secundaries... Nevertheless Im very happy with the CODEX, its very temathic.
This codex is NOT thematic, it's an inconsistent mess LOL
Well we have a different POV, surely yours has more weight, Im rather a rookie into 40K.
Samii wrote: I've had a high degree of success with a Black Legion 2K MSU-mixed list, so I thought I'd post here. Its unconventional, but it does use a few things I've seen elsewhere.
1) Mobile gunline. This part consists of 2 x 5 man Plague Marine units, with plasma, blight launcher, cleaver, flail, and plasma and power fist on champ; 2 x 5 man Havocs, one with Mark of Slaanesh, all lascannons and one unmarked with 2 x lascannons and 2 x autocannons; a Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch, wings and sword; Exalted Champ who gets the Eternal Vendetta and Trusted War Leader traits through strat; and finally a 10 man Legionnaire unit with Mark of Tzeentch, balefire tome, autocannon and heavy bolter.
Everything starts out of sight and jumps out to shoot. I spend 5 command points on the Legionnaires: one for daemon shell, one for remain stationary and one to turn them into Emperor's Children, finally two to shoot twice. With Eternal Vendetta its a mini hail of doom and has deleted a number of big things including: Silent King, 3 x Redemptors, 2 x Tank Commanders, 9 Leviathan Tyranid Warriors etc. It can get perfect angles and board coverage with warp time (from Prince), who can then do a psychic action with strat. Alternatively, I spend the last command point to get two extra hits from the lascannon Havocs, or to Veterans Rubrics (see below). The Plague Marines and Havocs lay down a hail of suppressive fire, with rerolls from Prince and Champ. If the mobile gunline gets charged or shot at its resilient enough for most things to bounce, and it then gets counterpunched by melee Plague Marines, Prince and Champ. I keep Diabolic Strength in the block somewhere, to put on Exalted Champ, or a cleaver Plague Marine.
2) Harrying units. This is a 10 man Rubric unit, all with flamers in a Rhino; 8 man bike unit with Mark of Khorne, fist on Champ and flamers; Venomcrawler and Heldrake. The Rubrics hop out of Rhino, potentially warp time and can flame a unit, I can Veterans them if I don't do a couple of the previous things (Havocs extra hits + psychic action etc.). Once they're out of the Rhino, it can taxi the Plague Marines later. The bikes are there for chaff clearance, counter charging, can deny with the Khorne strat and Despoil Dominions. Venomcrawler adds psychic support, a little shooting and counter charging. Similar for the Heldrake, but that also gives me anti-flyer, in addition to the Prince, and options for move blocking.
3) Action units. 2 x 10 man Cultist units. These move in behind the others for Banners, Despoil Dominions etc.
Some things about the list.
Its tougher than it looks. Units are small, can be hidden easily and there is a lot of models, making it possible to block out flyers and deep strikes. After the mini-hail of doom, Rubrics, Havocs and other elements have shot, the return fire is minimized and has to be spread quite thin. Everything is either/and/or T5, Disgustingly Resilient or potential for equivalent, has Mark of Nurgle, has Mark of Tzeentch, can get 4++ and has Armour of Contempt etc., so there are no easy targets except the Cultists, which are often ignored. The army leans a bit into territory usually associated with Marines, shooting, mobility but can deliver a very nasty melee counterpunch and has decent psychic defense.
It runs counter to the idea of having a big, immobile Terminator brick which is slow and lacks damage output without character support, instead it relies on distributed, high damage output, hard to kill units that force the opponent to split attention. The characters are there to enhance damage output across the board, rather than focusing on buffing one big unit and are able to do some damage in melee, psychic and shooting.
Objectives. I usually take Despoil Dominions, Bring it Down/No Prisoners, and one of the psychic ones, depending on opponent. So far, I've found that the damage output, versatility and mobility of the list has totally offset the weaker faction secondary's. One of two things happen: 1) the list pulls ahead early and the opponent can't recover easily 2) both armies bounce a bit and get pulled into a slow grind, where the Despoil Dominions objective helps as it can deny opponent's actions and can be performed by the Bikes.
Best,
Samii.
And apologies for the giant post
Thanks a lot for the Legionaire Trick. I'm a big fan of huge legionaire blobs with Iron Warriors in 8th edition with veterans and endless cacophony. And I couldn't think of a tactic to make them as good as in the old edition.
Could you post your full list. Like with battlescribe export. That would be much easier to grasp like where you stuffed Diabolic Strength or what you give the Legionaires as a psychic power.
The list has gone through a couple of iterations: I'll update shortly with the most recent one.
Vatsetis wrote: After three games Im reaching the point in which my BL Army can deliver a great punch... I just have to learn how to score Nephilin Primaries and Secundaries... Nevertheless Im very happy with the CODEX, its very temathic.
This codex is NOT thematic, it's an inconsistent mess LOL
But with so many conflicting rules spread everywhere with faqs and 9th edition rules and jetpacks non existent and halve the stuff maybe an Accursed weapon or otherwise loaded out instead of looking and no rules for fallen or poor lord Kranon they at least achieved one thing for sure - CHAOS REIGNS on the battlefields!!!111
CHAOS REIGNS so much a friend, who always explained all rules and new faqs to us and understood everything, stopped playing till they hopefully manage to get a consistent 10th edition rules book out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hey all,
I have several questions.
First one, with bringers of despair i am eglible to fight and fight first. Can I use that to consolidate into a unit near me, when i m not in Combat and fight every unit i consolidated into?
So , can I warp time my terminators next to an enemy unit after they have advanced and then use bringers of despairs stratagem to drag them into a fight?
Second one,
does liber hereticus expand range of cursed earth to bIt mentions that I only affects the first named range, and in cursed earth that is the first and only mentioned range.
Third one,
I want to bring my terminators in 9 inch away from enemies. Can I sacrifice one with master of possession to revive him closer to the enemy? Guess that is possible and would be super strong as it would be a 6 Inc charge then.
Fourth one,
having lots of trouble with flying hive tyrants, walki ghive tryant, Warriors and exocrine leviathan build. What would be your suggestions to kill those nasty bugs and their wound of 1 to 3 auto fails with mortal wounds spam behind them the warriors to kill my dudes?
Second one,
does liber hereticus expand range of cursed earth to bIt mentions that I only affects the first named range, and in cursed earth that is the first and only mentioned range.
No, people were trying to do this, and it was recently faq'd to clarify that the range of the power is self and it generates a 6" aura which does not qualify for the Liber range extension.
Third one,
I want to bring my terminators in 9 inch away from enemies. Can I sacrifice one with master of possession to revive him closer to the enemy? Guess that is possible and would be super strong as it would be a 6 Inc charge then.
Yes this works, just remember that the MoP can only use Sacrifical Dagger on Malefic Discipline powers so it cannot be used on smite or god specific powers granted by taking a mark.
Not sure on the others, so leaving those for someone with a stronger grasp to answer.
Vatsetis wrote: After three games Im reaching the point in which my BL Army can deliver a great punch... I just have to learn how to score Nephilin Primaries and Secundaries... Nevertheless Im very happy with the CODEX, its very temathic.
This codex is NOT thematic, it's an inconsistent mess LOL
You might call it.... Chaotic? Ba Dum Tss...........
First one, with bringers of despair i am eglible to fight and fight first. Can I use that to consolidate into a unit near me, when i m not in Combat and fight every unit i consolidated into?
So , can I warp time my terminators next to an enemy unit after they have advanced and then use bringers of despairs stratagem to drag them into a fight?
What makes you think you are eligible to fight and fight first with bringers of despair ? And btw, you cannot use any specialist detachments in nachmund or nephilim GT.
First one, with bringers of despair i am eglible to fight and fight first. Can I use that to consolidate into a unit near me, when i m not in Combat and fight every unit i consolidated into?
So , can I warp time my terminators next to an enemy unit after they have advanced and then use bringers of despairs stratagem to drag them into a fight?
What makes you think you are eligible to fight and fight first with bringers of despair ? And btw, you cannot use any specialist detachments in nachmund or nephilim GT.
Page 80, Black Legion strat - unit within 3" can fight and fights first, no specialist detachment stuff required.
Warp time only prevents making a charge move, so currently no reason why this wouldn't work. It would be better used on a fast unit like possessed though to get a bigger move out of warp time when something like confluence of traitors (for red corsairs) would give a similar result on terminators.
Insularum wrote: It would be better used on a fast unit like possessed though to get a bigger move out of warp time when something like confluence of traitors (for red corsairs) would give a similar result on terminators.
The strat is specifically for BL Termies, so using it on Possessed isn't a thing. As juicy as that would be.
Insularum wrote: It would be better used on a fast unit like possessed though to get a bigger move out of warp time when something like confluence of traitors (for red corsairs) would give a similar result on terminators.
The strat is specifically for BL Termies, so using it on Possessed isn't a thing. As juicy as that would be.
Went to the effort of finding it, then didn't check who could use it
In reality I doubt many people will ever get to use this strat in the manner suggested - it's played in the opponents turn so even with warptime it does not prevent opponents from moving away from units. It is a good trick to keep up your sleeve though if using a brick of terminators as using them as movement blockers is pretty much what they are there for.
What you are actually looking to do is to inflate the PL of your CSM so you can take less than 1500 points of them and take more Daemons.
E.g. 5 Legionaries are 6 PL, 6 Legionaries are 12 PL, 5 Terminators are 9 PL, 6 Terminators are 18 PL.
So, 3 x 6 Legionaries and 3 x 6 Terminators is 918 points, which is normally roughly 46 PL, but is now 90 PL. So you should be able to fill up on Daemons for the rest of your army.
You might not need to go that over the top, but should be able to get 600/700 points of Daemons for 25% PL if you are sneaky about it.
But in the first place, what do Daemons bring to the table for CSM? What might be worth a CSM army spending 2 CP to bring a Daemon patrol in the first place?
Hard to kill character beatstick (like an exalted greater daemon? CSM has Abaddon, Daemon Princes and Lord Discordant.
Cheap troops? Actually Daemon troops aren't a horde army anymore, they all went up in points. Our troop choices are now cheaper than Daemons. We got two varieties of cultists that are both cheaper than Daemon troops.
Melee? CSM has strong melee too.
Shooting? CSM has shooting too, and Daemons have never really been known as a very shooty army.
Eldenfirefly wrote: But in the first place, what do Daemons bring to the table for CSM? What might be worth a CSM army spending 2 CP to bring a Daemon patrol in the first place?
Hard to kill character beatstick (like an exalted greater daemon? CSM has Abaddon, Daemon Princes and Lord Discordant.
Cheap troops? Actually Daemon troops aren't a horde army anymore, they all went up in points. Our troop choices are now cheaper than Daemons. We got two varieties of cultists that are both cheaper than Daemon troops.
Melee? CSM has strong melee too.
Shooting? CSM has shooting too, and Daemons have never really been known as a very shooty army.
I'm now very confused about this additional Daemon thing.
Can a non-aligned army take a Daemon detachment? The way Tabletop Tactics described it, it was Khorne with WE, Slaanesh with EC, Tzeentch with 1KSons, Nurgle with DG, and that's it.
I must be missing something.
tneva82 wrote: In case you haven't noticed PL's are used in matched play...Term "strategic reserves" ring a bell?
And why do we put up with that? Mixing systems is stupid. It should be either/or, not kinda sorta both, but only in specific circumstances where we forgot to write rules.
You can bring a daemon detachment with your Word Bearers or Alpha Legion.
The difference is it doesn't have to be mono god Daemons, so WB, AL, NL, etc get it better than TS, DG, etc.
And the one good thing the new Daemon codex does, is it lets you take mixed Daemon detachments.
You lose very little by doing this, especially in soup.
This means you can take a Daemon patrol of Khorne DP, 10 Daemonettes, 6 Flamers. This unlocks all Khorne/Slaanesh/Tzeentch daemon strategems (but you are lucky if each individual unit can use 2 strategems each so it isn't as OP sounding as you might first think).
A mono god daemon detachment seems to only unlock:
Warp Storm Table for that god (which soup doesn't get).
Warlord traits (because you only get one warlord trait for the whole daemon army).
Eldenfirefly wrote: But in the first place, what do Daemons bring to the table for CSM? What might be worth a CSM army spending 2 CP to bring a Daemon patrol in the first place?
Short answer: Warp Locus.
The longer answer is Daemon Reinforcements that can enter and charge from shorter ranges, thus reaching their target with greater reliability and being safe "transported" there. Master of Possessions Warp Locus keyword basically allows you to cut down deploy distance from the enemy to 6", but it can be even shorter.
Another thing is infiltration. 20 points Nurglings (-1 to hit and T3 now) is a great screen and speedbump. Sure they can´t do actions nor be ObSec, but forcing opponents hand by starting the game on top of 2 objectives for 200 points (2x5 bases) is an impressive strategical advantage imho.
Atm I´m thinking a Patrol of Nurglings, Plaguebearers and a Scrivener (+1 to hit and extra ObSec for PB)
The longer answer is Daemon Reinforcements that can enter and charge from shorter ranges, thus reaching their target with greater reliability and being safe "transported" there. Master of Possessions Warp Locus keyword basically allows you to cut down deploy distance from the enemy to 6", but it can be even shorter.
Another thing is infiltration. 20 points Nurglings (-1 to hit and T3 now) is a great screen and speedbump. Sure they can´t do actions nor be ObSec, but forcing opponents hand by starting the game on top of 2 objectives for 200 points (2x5 bases) is an impressive strategical advantage imho.
Strangely the MoP is still unavailable for purchase. Most CSM players probably picked up 1 or 2 when they were available (I know I did), but CSM is an army that's really unfriendly to new players given its complexity and the bizarrely slow roll model support from GW.
I think the Be'lakor AoR may be where the soup is really made, especially if as indicated it keeps most of its current rules.
Souping in Be'lakor as a Supreme Commander may be the easiest option for bringing along a Daemon contingent. Obviously he synergizes very well with Night Lords. However, Daemons currently lose a lot of their summoning tricks when souped, although dropping at 6" is still a significant improvement.
Most players from 7th and before probably got one Sorcerer they can use to proxy. However if you even just have a regular Power Armor Sorcerer with an axe or sword nobody will care. After all, there's zero incentive to run a Power Armor Sorcerer anyway so it isn't like the opponent will get too confused about the proxy.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Most players from 7th and before probably got one Sorcerer they can use to proxy. However if you even just have a regular Power Armor Sorcerer with an axe or sword nobody will care. After all, there's zero incentive to run a Power Armor Sorcerer anyway so it isn't like the opponent will get too confused about the proxy.
My PA Sorcerer models are currently doing proxy duty as Balefire marines.
So, three things I picked up about the Chaos Daemon codex from what Auspex Tactics review. (These three things are standouts to me, gaps in the CSM codex). Everything else the CSM codex can already replicate or have similar stuff.
1. Skull Cannon. This thing is only 100 points, but has a D3+3 Str 8, AP2, D2 gun that fires at 48 inches and ignores cover. It has 9W and doesn't degrade. Its a very efficient long range artillery piece that can even fight in close range. And its so cheap losing one isn't going to hurt as much. I think CSM doesn't have anything nearly as efficient from a long range firepower perspective.
2. Deep strike at 6 inch from warp locus and can be 6 inches from enemy units. Our biggest advantage from allying in some chaos daemons. But we need units with warp locus for this to work well. As a subset to that, Khorne daemons can pay 1CP for banner of blood to have an icon unit roll an additional D6 and discard the lowest roll. CSM only has at most +1 to charge from deep strike.
3. Nurglings that can forward deploy. CSM doesn't have any units that can forward deploy.
If I missed anything, feel free to post too. Anything else, the CSM codex has something similar.
The warp locus deep strike rules makes a Khorne Lord of skulls more interesting as well because it has the warp locus keyword. Turn 1, if there is nothing to shoot, we can move advance a Khorne LOS up to a middle objective. Turn 2, a Khorne bloodletter unit can drop in 6 inches from the LOS and 6 inches from the enemy units.
Also, just having bloodletters that can charge with a 3d6 roll and drop the lowest die is a pretty good deep charge threat.
Eldenfirefly wrote: If I missed anything, feel free to post too. Anything else, the CSM codex has something similar.
You can include Be'lakor in a Supreme Command unit, deep strike him within 6" of an MoP and potentially 6" from an enemy, which is nice. He's a big beatstick that can't get shot off the table until you intend to bring him to bear. Also, including Be'lakor gives the psykers in your army access to the Noctic discipline according to the Goonhammer preview, even if you're not running the AoR, but it's really more useful to Daemons than to CSM unless you're running the AoR.
There's probably a few other useful things in there if you're willing to pay the CP tax to include them, but I tend to find my CSM lists are pretty starved for CP already. Be'lakor AoR heavy on CSM might be interesting as well, but again, the CP tax comes into play if you want anything from Daemons outside a Supreme Command detachment.
EviscerationPlague wrote: The Warp Locus is the biggest factor for wanting Daemons. Elden pointed out the three things I was looking at for the new codex.
There's definitely some angles there I suspect. The Be'lakor AoR has some tricks that I think could synergize really well with possessed, specifically with getting them across the board and into your opponent quickly without taking too much fire in the process.
Wreathed in Shades on a possessed unit to prevent them from being shot at unless they are the closest unit could be really good, especially if you're dropping a Daemon unit in front of them. However, the AoR has a lot of unit limitations. The Goonhammer preview mentions Warp Locus on a lot of the special characters, but those can't be included in the AoR. Hopefully it shows up on something like Heralds to provide some additional avenues for that.
Eldenfirefly wrote: So, three things I picked up about the Chaos Daemon codex from what Auspex Tactics review. (These three things are standouts to me, gaps in the CSM codex). Everything else the CSM codex can already replicate or have similar stuff.
1. Skull Cannon. This thing is only 100 points, but has a D3+3 Str 8, AP2, D2 gun that fires at 48 inches and ignores cover. It has 9W and doesn't degrade. Its a very efficient long range artillery piece that can even fight in close range. And its so cheap losing one isn't going to hurt as much. I think CSM doesn't have anything nearly as efficient from a long range firepower perspective.
2. Deep strike at 6 inch from warp locus and can be 6 inches from enemy units. Our biggest advantage from allying in some chaos daemons. But we need units with warp locus for this to work well. As a subset to that, Khorne daemons can pay 1CP for banner of blood to have an icon unit roll an additional D6 and discard the lowest roll. CSM only has at most +1 to charge from deep strike.
3. Nurglings that can forward deploy. CSM doesn't have any units that can forward deploy.
If I missed anything, feel free to post too. Anything else, the CSM codex has something similar.
The warp locus deep strike rules makes a Khorne Lord of skulls more interesting as well because it has the warp locus keyword. Turn 1, if there is nothing to shoot, we can move advance a Khorne LOS up to a middle objective. Turn 2, a Khorne bloodletter unit can drop in 6 inches from the LOS and 6 inches from the enemy units.
Also, just having bloodletters that can charge with a 3d6 roll and drop the lowest die is a pretty good deep charge threat.
I agree regarding the Skull Cannon. I think it would make a great addition to World Eater armies that aren't sure what is going to stay in the book or not.
EviscerationPlague wrote: The Warp Locus is the biggest factor for wanting Daemons. Elden pointed out the three things I was looking at for the new codex.
There's definitely some angles there I suspect. The Be'lakor AoR has some tricks that I think could synergize really well with possessed, specifically with getting them across the board and into your opponent quickly without taking too much fire in the process.
Wreathed in Shades on a possessed unit to prevent them from being shot at unless they are the closest unit could be really good, especially if you're dropping a Daemon unit in front of them. However, the AoR has a lot of unit limitations. The Goonhammer preview mentions Warp Locus on a lot of the special characters, but those can't be included in the AoR. Hopefully it shows up on something like Heralds to provide some additional avenues for that.
Hard disagree on the AoR. It's just Alpha Legion but worse. Access to the Warp points or whatever ain't worth it compared to just bringing in some meat shields (or rather Daemon Shields).
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's also funny you mention the Wreathed In Shades, since Alpha Legion have access to Conceal that does the same thing.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Hard disagree on the AoR. It's just Alpha Legion but worse. Access to the Warp points or whatever ain't worth it compared to just bringing in some meat shields (or rather Daemon Shields).
Honestly, I suspect you're right as that was my first reaction on seeing the rules. I'm kind of holding off final judgement until I've seen all the rules and done some tinkering with lists.
Currently, my plan is to have Be'lakor tag along with some of my pure Daemon armies as that's where I think he'll be most effective. I have a bunch of Tzeentch/Slaanesh Daemons that I've been playing in AoS and the Be'lakor AoR in AoS is very good. However, it's possible, if unlikely, that there may be something interesting that could be cobbled together that I just haven't seen yet with the AoR.
Forgefiend is 160pts for 8 S8 AP2 D2 vs Skull Cannon's average of 5 S8 AP2 D2 for 100pts. Basically 20 points for each S8 shot.
I think once you add in the rest of the rules a Skull Cannon is better, but is it 2 or 3 CP for a detachment better? If you take 3 in a Spearhead it is like martial legacy, 1 CP for each one.
EightFoldPath wrote: Forgefiend is 160pts for 8 S8 AP2 D2 vs Skull Cannon's average of 5 S8 AP2 D2 for 100pts. Basically 20 points for each S8 shot.
I think once you add in the rest of the rules a Skull Cannon is better, but is it 2 or 3 CP for a detachment better? If you take 3 in a Spearhead it is like martial legacy, 1 CP for each one.
Skull Cannon also ignores cover (so I've heard) which is pretty significant when going up against MEQ, thanks to Armor of Contempt.
Just a quick one guys, building a fun list for a game on Saturday...
Is there any reason why my World Eater Disco Lord couldn't give the plus one to hit on a World Eater Brass Scorpion? Seems to be some good synergy on them, both moving 12 and increasing the output of an expensive model?
Cheers
EviscerationPlague wrote: How much more durable are Forgefiends for the points though? I haven't seen the Skull Cannons defensive stats but it can't be all bad
Both are T7. But the Skull cannon has daemonic save 4++ against both ranged and melee. Against small arms fire or AP1, the Forgefiend is better due to armor of contempt. Against heavy anti tank weapons that are AP3 or better, then the skull cannon is better.
Also, the Skull cannon is 9W, doesn't degrade. For 200 points , you can have two SC, one on either side of the field laying down crossfire. The forgefiend is 12W for 160 points, and it degrades. So overall, I would definitely say that the Skull Cannon comes out on top here.
Warp Locus and Nurglings was noted earlier, but the Cannon is new. Interesting indeed! CSM also has the Rapier Carrier which is similar, but gets behind when looking at the defensive stats. A Daemon attachment with Nurglings, Cannon(s) and some Troops for a out of the warp charge by a MoP seems nice.
Nurglings also functions brilliant with AL's Conceal. Not news really, but Nurglings got cheaper
Heldrake for preventing opponents getting “behind enemy lines” secondary (or similar e.g. relentless assault for BA), as well as achieving your own secondary like “engage on all fronts”. Waste of time or worthy idea?
Kangarupe wrote: Heldrake for preventing opponents getting “behind enemy lines” secondary (or similar e.g. relentless assault for BA), as well as achieving your own secondary like “engage on all fronts”. Waste of time or worthy idea?
Possibly. Helldrake opens up interesting options. Its relatively squishy and easy to kill though. The question is whether it would have accomplished enough before it is blown out of the sky. You likely get 1 move, 1 shooting phase and 1 attack phase with it. If you actually survive beyond that, everything else is a bonus. Lots of armies have the fire power to destroy a helldrake in one turn. Unless you present so many other targets that they choose to focus on other stuff first.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scactha wrote: Warp Locus and Nurglings was noted earlier, but the Cannon is new. Interesting indeed! CSM also has the Rapier Carrier which is similar, but gets behind when looking at the defensive stats. A Daemon attachment with Nurglings, Cannon(s) and some Troops for a out of the warp charge by a MoP seems nice.
Nurglings also functions brilliant with AL's Conceal. Not news really, but Nurglings got cheaper
Also, our castors like MOP tend to be so good we want them to focus on casting psychic rather than doing psychic actions. A chaos daemon herald like a Pox bringer or a slanaash herald can perform a psychic action instead. Their psychic tend to be less impactful, and they only have one cast, so its fine to use it on a psychic action instead. And if we are going to be bringing a chaos daemon patrol as allies anyway, then we will tend to bring one of the cheap heralds anyway.
I am of two minds about the greater daemons. I feel that if we start looking at greater daemons, we might as well go full chaos daemon army instead of souping them in. Greater daemons work better in multiples in a monster mash sort of list. One solo greater daemon will likely just get shot off the board because they can't hide anymore (> 18W). Its also a pain to try and fit in a greater daemon within 25% of our PLlol.
Kangarupe wrote: Heldrake for preventing opponents getting “behind enemy lines” secondary (or similar e.g. relentless assault for BA), as well as achieving your own secondary like “engage on all fronts”. Waste of time or worthy idea?
Possibly. Helldrake opens up interesting options. Its relatively squishy and easy to kill though. The question is whether it would have accomplished enough before it is blown out of the sky. You likely get 1 move, 1 shooting phase and 1 attack phase with it. If you actually survive beyond that, everything else is a bonus. Lots of armies have the fire power to destroy a helldrake in one turn. Unless you present so many other targets that they choose to focus on other stuff first.
Interesting…Better suggestion? Raptors or Warp Talons?
My buddy plays his BA and reems me with relentless fury. Tough for me to get my relatively slow moving CSM Black Legion into his deployment zone to prevent the secondary (with not much benefit to me might I add) Killing is seemingly the best option currently but tough with their movement stuff… ?
If you want to specifically "tailor" to better face his blood angels. I would suggest you play your legion as creations of bile. Then, even if he kills your units, you get to strike back on death and kill him back as well.
Except you cannot kill BA with CSM. Sang guard have 2+ sv. With AP-2 they still save on 3+. Even if you manage to kill one or two one will return with the upgraded sang priest for free.
p5freak wrote: Except you cannot kill BA with CSM. Sang guard have 2+ sv. With AP-2 they still save on 3+. Even if you manage to kill one or two one will return with the upgraded sang priest for free.
I played against some BA this weekend, it wasn't a tournament tuned list comp, but I won the game handily, the Sang Guard got beat down. That being said, I was running Emperor's Children, the Sang Guard got beat down by Terminators with Power Fists and Chain Fists and re-roll 1s.
Fighting marines was definitely a slog though, without Power Fists and Chain Fists I don't think I would have done nearly as well.
So I'm nearing completion for my first EC list. ONLY the Sorcerer, MOP, melee Noise, Spawn and Helbrutes to do x.x
Just figured I'd post it here and get feedback. For sure, not by any means a highly competitive or even fully optimized list but seems fun as a general comers list that doesn't feel min/max/gamey either. Just some fun stuff to try out.
Emperor's Children
HQs:
Chaos Lord - Thunder Hammer, Power Fist
Warlord - Faultless Duelest
Mark of Slaanesh
Relic - Thaa'Ris & Rhi'ol
Master of Possession Warp's Malice (-1CP, Relic), Staff of Possession
Mark of Slaanesh
Spells: Smite, Delightful Agonies, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
Sorcerer Bolt Pistol, Force Stave
Relic: Liber Hereticus (-1CP)
Spells: Smite, Delightful Agonies, Diabolic Strength, Warptime
Troops:
Noise Marines x 9 Marines,
x9 Bolt Pistols/Chain Swords
Champion - Bolt Pistol, Power Fist, Doom Siren
Icon
Relic: Black Rune of the Damned (-1CP)
Noise Marines x4 Sonic Blasters
x1 Blast Master
Noise Marines x4 Sonic Blasters
x1 Blast Master
Noise Marines x4 Sonic Blasters
x1 Blast Master
Elites:
Helbrute Multi-Melta, Brute Fist w/ Flamer
Mark of Slaanesh
Again, mostly a fun list for playing with friends or just random pick up games at the local shop. No powerhouse list and focusing on some less than optimal choices (Such as using melee Noise Marines with the rune instead of the obligatory Termies or Chosen). Going for a 'Smash Lord' instead of a Prince or slotting in Abadon or something silly.
Ranged back field with oblits/havocs and sonic Noise Marines (Who can camp deployment objectives, sonic Noise Marines can move about as needed to snag objectives), charge up with the melee Noise Marines with the Lord, MOP, Sorcerer in tow to be shielded by the Noise lads while buffing them for further survival/ressurection and when close enough, buff the Lord and crash him into the enemy. Helbrutes stomping up the field towards ideal targets, either drawing all sorts of gunfire and (if they survive) bonking things around in melee or melta/flaming them. The Spawn rushing forward to harass or be dealt with or plop on an objective.
Melevolence wrote: So I'm nearing completion for my first EC list. ONLY the Sorcerer, MOP, melee Noise, Spawn and Helbrutes to do x.x
Just figured I'd post it here and get feedback. For sure, not by any means a highly competitive or even fully optimized list but seems fun as a general comers list that doesn't feel min/max/gamey either. Just some fun stuff to try out.
Should be a fun list, a few things I noted down from the two games I played with them this past weekend.
Leverage that Legion trait, all the things that ignoring penalties to hit entails is larger than you think, it's amazing, for example:
- Power Fists and Chainfists on Terminators - my termie brick was absolutely rockstar in both games, they did so much work it was ridiculous.
- Obliterators firing heavy weapons in melee - usually at -1, no penalty for EC, my second opponent was Orks, he did not appreciate this.
- Advancing with Assault weapons - I had 4x melta/4x flamers on the terminators, Noise Marine squads advance and fire at no penalty was less huge but still very useful.
Liber Hereticus was as good as you'd expect.
The Dark Apostle is annoying, but Blissful Devotion is unfortunately key for EC I think, especially with Honor the Prince. It allowed me to project power with the Terminator squad so much more effectively.
Melevolence wrote: So I'm nearing completion for my first EC list. ONLY the Sorcerer, MOP, melee Noise, Spawn and Helbrutes to do x.x
Just figured I'd post it here and get feedback. For sure, not by any means a highly competitive or even fully optimized list but seems fun as a general comers list that doesn't feel min/max/gamey either. Just some fun stuff to try out.
Should be a fun list, a few things I noted down from the two games I played with them this past weekend.
Leverage that Legion trait, all the things that ignoring penalties to hit entails is larger than you think, it's amazing, for example:
- Power Fists and Chainfists on Terminators - my termie brick was absolutely rockstar in both games, they did so much work it was ridiculous.
- Obliterators firing heavy weapons in melee - usually at -1, no penalty for EC, my second opponent was Orks, he did not appreciate this.
- Advancing with Assault weapons - I had 4x melta/4x flamers on the terminators, Noise Marine squads advance and fire at no penalty was less huge but still very useful.
Liber Hereticus was as good as you'd expect.
The Dark Apostle is annoying, but Blissful Devotion is unfortunately key for EC I think, especially with Honor the Prince. It allowed me to project power with the Terminator squad so much more effectively.
Oh, I do plan to abuse the EC modifier ignoring quite a bit. It really is kinda absurd XD. Was why I didn't feel bad giving my Lord a Hammer and Fist since he doesn't care about the -1 on such weapons and gets more attacks with the daemon weapon relic to be quite slappy (in theory). I wanted to find room for a Blast Master in the melee unit just to give them another thing to fire as they just keep running up the board but alas. (Could maybe ditch the meltas off the Havoc Champions but I want them to have SOME sort of use.)
I was tempted to use an Apostle and probably will once I get him assembled and painted, giving me more ways to toy with the army. Still got lots on the 'to do' pile, though this was my first list I wanted to get drummed up.
Liber just seems so good. Three casts and extending their range is just so incredibly useful.
I'm eager to get all these depraved lads on the table as soon as I can
H.B.M.C. wrote:Why Meltas in the Havoc Squads?
It's mainly because I had points left over and it gives the Havoc Champion something to do if an enemy gets close. A bolter won't do much, never been a fan of plasma pistols and flamer is probably always a dud option. But if an enemy deep strikes or manages to get through...yeah, it's just some way to make him not absolutely useless in the unit. I really hate he can't use something more meaningful to be more congruent with the rest of the unit. So weird he can only use shorter ranged weapons.
So yeah...Havoc Champion loadout options are actually trash considering what the rest of the crew is bringing. He gets a tiny gun or melee options in a unit that is all about big guns and not wanting to be in melee.
Melevolence wrote: It's mainly because I had points left over and it gives the Havoc Champion something to do if an enemy gets close. A bolter won't do much, never been a fan of plasma pistols and flamer is probably always a dud option.
Then why not Plasma Guns, so they can do something out to 24" rather than just 12"?
Melevolence wrote: It's mainly because I had points left over and it gives the Havoc Champion something to do if an enemy gets close. A bolter won't do much, never been a fan of plasma pistols and flamer is probably always a dud option.
Then why not Plasma Guns, so they can do something out to 24" rather than just 12"?
I could, I spose. I just feel like Plasma never earns it's keep and supercharging always ends up in my dude blowing up somehow XD I still have time to make a decision as I've not finished assembling the champions just yet. I just get weary with Plasma on basic dudes since they can just off themselves when Slaanesh needs a good chuckle (Which feels like often when I've used Plasma in the past).
Vatsetis wrote: Meltas for Havoc champion in Rhino (+shared taxi with Chosen) is gold.
Do people thing that 3 spawns are worth against a 5 strong legionary squad (point difference will go to extra cultist I suppose).
Kinda different. Chaos spawn are cheaper, in FA slot, fight well, quite tanky, irritating to kill. The 5 strong legionaire squad has troop slot, obsec (if its just bare bones). You need to spend more points for the squad to be threatening in melee, like bring power fist and/or heavy axe.
Vatsetis wrote: Meltas for Havoc champion in Rhino (+shared taxi with Chosen) is gold.
Do people thing that 3 spawns are worth against a 5 strong legionary squad (point difference will go to extra cultist I suppose).
I'd say it depends on what your army needs as they fill different roles with a tad of overlap.
I made room in my list for two squads of two Spawn to use as objective hoppers or to skirt around and harass/bully things they can shred up or just tie up something annoying if they aren't dealt with. I can't think of much use for a basic 5 man Legionaries squad though. I feel like they'd just sit on the back lot if they ended up on a list due to spare points. Keep them in cover to make them a little tougher to remove from an objective but I'm not sure how much they'd contribute otherwise without being kitted out in order to DO something else XD
H.B.M.C. wrote: Then why not Plasma Guns, so they can do something out to 24" rather than just 12"?
Probably not a bad idea for a Havoc squad, however, I kept running into issues with rapid fire weapons as opposed to assault weapons playing EC over the weekend. It may be just a matter of practice with the army and knowing when/how/why to use different movement modes.
I actually don't really plan to use Havocs for my EC army, going to try some Legionaries as I think I can load the heavy weapon difference into troop units and keep Obliterators in play.
Melevolence wrote: So I'm nearing completion for my first EC list. ONLY the Sorcerer, MOP, melee Noise, Spawn and Helbrutes to do x.x
Just figured I'd post it here and get feedback. For sure, not by any means a highly competitive or even fully optimized list but seems fun as a general comers list that doesn't feel min/max/gamey either. Just some fun stuff to try out.
Emperor's Children
HQs:
Chaos Lord - Thunder Hammer, Power Fist
Warlord - Faultless Duelest
Mark of Slaanesh
Relic - Thaa'Ris & Rhi'ol
Master of Possession Warp's Malice (-1CP, Relic), Staff of Possession
Mark of Slaanesh
Spells: Smite, Delightful Agonies, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
Sorcerer Bolt Pistol, Force Stave
Relic: Liber Hereticus (-1CP)
Spells: Smite, Delightful Agonies, Diabolic Strength, Warptime
Troops:
Noise Marines x 9 Marines,
x9 Bolt Pistols/Chain Swords
Champion - Bolt Pistol, Power Fist, Doom Siren
Icon
Relic: Black Rune of the Damned (-1CP)
Noise Marines x4 Sonic Blasters
x1 Blast Master
Noise Marines x4 Sonic Blasters
x1 Blast Master
Noise Marines x4 Sonic Blasters
x1 Blast Master
Elites:
Helbrute Multi-Melta, Brute Fist w/ Flamer
Mark of Slaanesh
Again, mostly a fun list for playing with friends or just random pick up games at the local shop. No powerhouse list and focusing on some less than optimal choices (Such as using melee Noise Marines with the rune instead of the obligatory Termies or Chosen). Going for a 'Smash Lord' instead of a Prince or slotting in Abadon or something silly.
Ranged back field with oblits/havocs and sonic Noise Marines (Who can camp deployment objectives, sonic Noise Marines can move about as needed to snag objectives), charge up with the melee Noise Marines with the Lord, MOP, Sorcerer in tow to be shielded by the Noise lads while buffing them for further survival/ressurection and when close enough, buff the Lord and crash him into the enemy. Helbrutes stomping up the field towards ideal targets, either drawing all sorts of gunfire and (if they survive) bonking things around in melee or melta/flaming them. The Spawn rushing forward to harass or be dealt with or plop on an objective.
MANTLE OF TRAITORS on your lord as second relic. Reroll melee, one stratagem free, but also one squad reroll 1s is nice. Alternative intoxicating elexir.
Drop the special weapons on Havocs champion. He dies first to save a lascanon missle launcher dude.
Combimelta on sorcerer, because you can shoot both profiles without malus as of emperor children - nevermind only possible on sorcerer in Terminator armour.
Go for three units of spawns with 2 1 1 for maximum flexibility, also 1 might also camp on a backfield objective, so you can do it for half the price with 25 points instead of 50. Or 3 1 for Character protection
Give all your noise marine troops icons because they are free.
Heavy flamers are nice, but most often you don't wanna shoot them to not lengthen your charge. Also rule of cool would be with the helbrute hammer. So you hammer him, roll damage 1, your opponent grins, you pop murderous perfection (
you can change the result of one hit roll, one wound roll or one damage roll to be a 6) and change the damage to flat 6. Then you
say hammer time, do the dance
Works also with your lord. Would also free up enough points with the dropped havoc champion melta for another spawn. Would be cool. But your flamer fist combo should be better. Just finally those cool Helbrute Hammers in action! They should have given them a swing/smash profile to be viable.
Nice idea with the lord with thal and rapcious and fist hammer. Still I am loving lucius.
Last idea, drop the Sorcerer, do the hammer combo and drop one melta on havocs to have enough points to bring lucius. Change the warlord trait of your smash lord to loathsome grace to give him some speed +2 movement and rerolls charge and advance. Each character gets a protective hammer helbrute and make every game an emperor's children gentleman's duel between those two who can clear his flank first.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In addition, making a gentleman's duel between Lucius and the Chaos Lord is too cool (in the same detachment). It would be too awesome on the table and too true to the lore of emperor's children. That's why GW forbid it and you can only have one Chaos Lord as Lucius counts as one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could still do the gentleman's duel between your chaos Lord and a master of Execution with warps malic and flames of spite though. Your MoP needs the liber hereticus anyway when you drop the sorcerer.
Fip wrote: ...Also rule of cool would be with the helbrute hammer. So you hammer him, roll damage 1, your opponent grins, you pop murderous perfection (
you can change the result of one hit roll, one wound roll or one damage roll to be a 6) and change the damage to flat 6. Then you
say hammer time, do the dance
Just as a note, you have to declare Murderous Perfection when the unit is selected to shoot or fight. No waiting until you need it for a damage roll.
Fip wrote: ...Also rule of cool would be with the helbrute hammer. So you hammer him, roll damage 1, your opponent grins, you pop murderous perfection (
you can change the result of one hit roll, one wound roll or one damage roll to be a 6) and change the damage to flat 6. Then you
say hammer time, do the dance
Just as a note, you have to declare Murderous Perfection when the unit is selected to shoot or fight. No waiting until you need it for a damage roll.
Im pretty sure 95% of oponents wont notice, and for the other 5% you have the plausible deniability of not understanding the rule yourself.
Thats the the difference between a 40K pro gamer and a filthy casual.
Vatsetis wrote: Im pretty sure 95% of oponents wont notice, and for the other 5% you have the plausible deniability of not understanding the rule yourself.
Thats the the difference between a 40K pro gamer and a filthy casual.
Fip wrote: ...Also rule of cool would be with the helbrute hammer. So you hammer him, roll damage 1, your opponent grins, you pop murderous perfection (
you can change the result of one hit roll, one wound roll or one damage roll to be a 6) and change the damage to flat 6. Then you
say hammer time, do the dance
Just as a note, you have to declare Murderous Perfection when the unit is selected to shoot or fight. No waiting until you need it for a damage roll.
Well, I read the stratagem wrong. That makes it significantly less strong. Still it's one more ap and 3,5 dmg to having that flamer. I wonder what math would be better. Guess the flamer. Still - finally hammer Helbrutes in action
Don't cheat with it, dude! It only taints your victory for yourself and it ruins the friendly atmosphere.
Vatsetis wrote: Im pretty sure 95% of oponents wont notice, and for the other 5% you have the plausible deniability of not understanding the rule yourself.
Thats the the difference between a 40K pro gamer and a filthy casual.
Recommending cheating?
Wonderful...
Yes, saying something exist means endorsing it. Dont you realise my post was dry humour
Fip wrote: ...Also rule of cool would be with the helbrute hammer. So you hammer him, roll damage 1, your opponent grins, you pop murderous perfection (
you can change the result of one hit roll, one wound roll or one damage roll to be a 6) and change the damage to flat 6. Then you
say hammer time, do the dance
Just as a note, you have to declare Murderous Perfection when the unit is selected to shoot or fight. No waiting until you need it for a damage roll.
Well, I read the stratagem wrong. That makes it significantly less strong. Still it's one more ap and 3,5 dmg to having that flamer. I wonder what math would be better. Guess the flamer. Still - finally hammer Helbrutes in action
Don't cheat with it, dude! It only taints your victory for yourself and it ruins the friendly atmosphere.
Its only a cheat if you are proven you have the intent to cheat. Which aint possible.
But thankfully Im a troll and you cannot take my world for face value.
Perhaps I was simply rissing awareness of this issue so people wont cheat or forgot how this strat actually works.
I use AoS Spirit Hosts in one of my chaos armies, but use the actual kits in the other.
Once you put the arms on the Spawn it does take up a good amount of space/volume.
If you are looking at 40mm base models I think they would need to be quite large models, e.g. I've seen the 4 big Gellerpox dudes used as half decent spawn.
Its all coming together now. We just had key words added/ changed that has made many of the martial legacy forgeworld units playable with our CSM armeis. So units like Decimaters and Brass Scorpians playable and benefit from our codex rules.
Also, chaos daemons and/or chaos knights that we have the option to add as agent of chaos options do open up even more options for us to round out our chaos armies.
Chaos Daemons as allies in particular, bring a lot of interesting options and units to our army.
Flamers, skull cannons, cheap castors like a transweaver, and even running one of the greater daemons like an exalted blood thirster is an option.
And while I know not everyone is happy about the squishy nature of daemon troops, but a unit of 10 blood letters dropping down in deep strike from the warp and rolling 3d6 picking the highest 2d6 for a charge is still a charge option that CSM didn't have, and they generally will wreck what they charge.
Looking forward to even more interesting lists people can come up with now that the full suit of chaos options has been brought up to 9th edition and can synergise with each other.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Its all coming together now. We just had key words added/ changed that has made many of the martial legacy forgeworld units playable with our CSM armeis. So units like Decimaters and Brass Scorpians playable and benefit from our codex rules.
Also, chaos daemons and/or chaos knights that we have the option to add as agent of chaos options do open up even more options for us to round out our chaos armies.
Chaos Daemons as allies in particular, bring a lot of interesting options and units to our army.
Flamers, skull cannons, cheap castors like a transweaver, and even running one of the greater daemons like an exalted blood thirster is an option.
And while I know not everyone is happy about the squishy nature of daemon troops, but a unit of 10 blood letters dropping down in deep strike from the warp and rolling 3d6 picking the highest 2d6 for a charge is still a charge option that CSM didn't have, and they generally will wreck what they charge.
Looking forward to even more interesting lists people can come up with now that the full suit of chaos options has been brought up to 9th edition and can synergise with each other.
Now that the dust has settled and people habe more experience: What are the opinions on the book? How you think will NL and CoB fare? I currently can’t decide on a Legion to play/paint
Also, chaos daemons and/or chaos knights that we have the option to add as agent of chaos options do open up even more options for us to round out our chaos armies.
And while I know not everyone is happy about the squishy nature of daemon troops, but a unit of 10 blood letters dropping down in deep strike from the warp and rolling 3d6 picking the highest 2d6 for a charge is still a charge option that CSM didn't have, and they generally will wreck what they charge.
Looking forward to even more interesting lists people can come up with now that the full suit of chaos options has been brought up to 9th edition and can synergise with each other.
Agreed, these are two of my favorite things to come out of the codex.
40k rules for the Traitor Guard kill team, with the commissar ('enforcer') & ogryn split out into a character + bodyguard unit separate from the guard.
Initial impressions of the enforcer - I don't think you'll really see them. The ogryn has -1 damage and has special rules to let it tank for the enforcer, but the enforcer doesn't 'do' anything beyond preventing traitor guard attrition, which just isn't going to be that impactful. You'd also be paying 110 points for the duo.
For the guardsmen, a few nice things - you can give them a grenade launcher, meltagun, and plasmagun for free cause they're not listed in the points values. They otherwise cost exactly the same as a regular guard infantry squad. That's 10 points over the standard cultist squad, but those 10 points get you three special weapons and a 5+ save. Too bad of course you can't take duplicates of the special weapons, but having some kind of damage threat from your cultists isn't always a bad idea. You could in theory use a Dark Commune + Cult Leader (AL warlord trait) to make them hit on 3+ reroll 1s with extra -1AP, but that still seems more cute than good. I don't think any of the other cultist buffs have much synergy with them since most of them are restricted to being in melee. So it's probably worth just treating them like regular cultists who have special weapons.
If you were already taking cultists, have the 10 points to spare, weren't using cultist mob-specific strats and/or have guardsmen models with the appropriate special weapons, they probably will be reasonable replacements for the regular cultist mob.
The enforcer unit is probably no more than a cool unit rather than a great one, but it is a <legion> character unit so is viable for a lot of the buffs you would have access to normally so could pick up any spare abilities you haven't got anyone else to use them on.
Shame the guardsmen can't use the cool shotgun/shield model, but any build with any 3 guns looks good, maybe even good enough to trigger and use ritual offerings.
165 points gets you two squads of Traitor Guard and an Enforcer that makes them Fearless within 24", which isn't bad. They don't need to have anyone babysit them, they'll probably have to be killed to the last man, assuming you stash the Enforcer. At the very least you force your opponent to commit resources to removing the Enforcer or killing the Traitor Guard to the last man, either of which is probably not the worst trade in the world. In the meantime, they're raising banners, and doing other objective work away from the front line, theoretically freeing up the rest of your army to do the more serious work.
Obviously Cultists are cheaper and can do a lot of the same work, but they can also break easily to very light fire and are less durable.
I'll probably build out a couple squads to play around with them, I don't expect them to be life-changing, but I think they may have their uses.
Just noticed on Battlescribe that the Enforcer can be a Warlord, have relics, and benefit from some strats that only affect units with bolters (he has one). You could use the Dark communae as HQ, and cover with some legionnaires, terminators and chosen
I mean, its not possible to do a full-cultist list, but its a start!
What do you guys think of some like 4 Terrax Termite drills in an army with heavy flamers as a sort of "anvil" backbone for the army?
I'm split between the Black Legion (BL) or Creation of Bile (CoB).
Any opinions?
CoB is *the* meta for CSM and it'd definitely work will with a list below... but, I also think BL would work great too? Especially for the Termites getting the +1 to hit when firing the meltas (BS 2+) or assaulting (WS 3+).
I think I'd start the termites on the table too.
No matter the legion, putting units in the Termite on T1 and then disembarking at the start of the game gives each unit a free addition 3" movement, to grab/hold objectives throughout the table.
I had posted a while back and was going to put up a Black Legion list I was having some success with.
However, since then I've modified the list quite a bit and to be honest, it has been absolutely hammering my competition. I regularly was beating pre-nerf Votann with it and the hard counter Cadian list: super heavies and tank commanders with Relic of Lost Cadia and reroll hit and wound strat etc., so I thought I'd put it up now.
Supreme Command Detachment
Abaddon the Despoiler Warlord - Eternal Vendetta, Paragon of Hatred, Merciless Overseer
Black Legion Battalion
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour - Force Sword, Combi-bolter, Chaos Familiar
Mark of Slaanesh
Relic: Veilbreaker Plate
Spells: Smite, Prescience, Warp Time, Delightful Agonies
Master of Possession - Bolt Pistol, Staff of Possession, Frag and Krak Grenades
Spells: Smite, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
Dark Apostle - Bolt Pistol, Accursed Crozius, Frag and Krak Grenades
Mark of Slaanesh
Prayers: Dark Zealotry, Illusory Supplication, Blissful Devotion
2 x Dark Disciples
Chaos Contemptor - x2 Twin-volkite Culverins
Mark of Tzeentch
Chaos Terminators x 7 Terminators
x 2 Power Fists
x 1 Combi-melta
x 5 Accursed Weapons
x 6 Combi-bolters
Champion - Chainfist, Combi-melta
Mark of Slaanesh
Rubric Marines x 5 Rubric Marines
x 5 Warpflamers
Aspiring Sorcerer - Warpflame Pistol, Force Stave
Mark of Tzeentch
Spells: Smite, Infernal Gaze, Skeins of Fate
Legionnaires x 9 Legionnaires
x 9 Bolt Pistols
x 1 Lascannon
x 1 Heavy Bolter
x 6 Boltguns
x 1 Balefire Tome
Aspiring Champion - Bolt Pistol, Boltgun
Mark of Tzeentch
Spells: Smite, Diabolic Strength, Skeins of Fate
Cultists Mob x 9 Cultists
x 9 Cultist Firearms
Cultist Champion - Cultist Firearm
Cultists Mob x 9 Cultists
x 9 Cultist Firearms
Cultist Champion - Cultist Firearm
Dreadclaw Drop Pod - Blade Struts, Thermal Jets
Venomcrawler - x 2 Excruciator Cannons, Soulflayer Tendrils and Claws
Havocs x 4 Havocs
x 4 Lascannons
Havoc Champion - Boltgun
The list works like so: it can play defensively or offensively.
Offense
With the Sorcerer with the Plate I can get a Turn 1 charge on the Terminators fairly reliably using the MoP resurrection trick, so against a gunline I can drop the tough Terminator brick in the opponents midst very quickly. I use Merciless Overseer to make the Combi-meltas explode and have the Combi-bolters clear screens. Terminators charge screens, or exposed valuable targets. But in any case, they are a threat that needs dealing with Turn 1. I'm using Illusory Supplication, Diabolic Strength on the Champion, Prescience and Delightful Agonies to buff them.
Abaddon buffs the Legionnaires with reroll to hit and wound and I spend two command points on shoot twice and one to turn them into Emperor's Children. With Eternal Vendetta, the Contemptor, Havocs and Legionnaires get reroll wounds against a lot of targets, if I choose selection carefully. The shooting in the list usually cracks two to three tough targets in the first turn: Tank Commanders, Harpies, maybe Silent King etc. The Terminators can clear screens Turn 1 and threaten valuable targets on Turn 2. If they are charged they fight first and still have all the buffs.
Additionally, the Rubrics drop in the Dreadclaw to clear screens and target priority units with Infernal Gaze, on Turn 1. If there is a tough exposed unit, I can spend a command point to Smite them, then Infernal Gaze and then flame them. To me they are like Flamers but are a bit more reliable and can come in Turn 1. Turn 2 the Dreadclaw does mortal wounds, cracks vehicles etc. and the Rubrics flame something else, or do Banners.
Cultists are there for Banners and screening.
While the opponent is dealing with all this, I Warp Time Abaddon up the field and on the following Turn use the Apostle prayer to advance and charge him. Effectively, Terminators and Rubrics make a gap in the line and Abaddon gets charged in there.
Defense
Against an army that comes to me I have options. I can screen with the Cultists and the shooting from the list tends to get better the closer the opponent is.
Additionally, there are a lot of Smites here, with +1 to cast from the Venomcrawler, so the opponent risks getting hit by a wall of mortal wounds Turn 1.
The Contemptor can intercept, as can the Legionnaires.
I have potentially five denies and one from the Khorne strat with Abaddon, so psychic defense is decent here too.
Black Legion have a strat for fall back and shoot/charge so its hard to pin units down and Terminators and Abaddon fight first and provide a nasty counter punch. In the defensive scenario, I can also use Plate to teleport the Terminators late game.
I had posted a while back and was going to put up a Black Legion list I was having some success with.
However, since then I've modified the list quite a bit and to be honest, it has been absolutely hammering my competition. I regularly was beating pre-nerf Votann with it and the hard counter Cadian list: super heavies and tank commanders with Relic of Lost Cadia and reroll hit and wound strat etc., so I thought I'd put it up now.
Supreme Command Detachment
Abaddon the Despoiler Warlord - Eternal Vendetta, Paragon of Hatred, Merciless Overseer
Black Legion Battalion
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour - Force Sword, Combi-bolter, Chaos Familiar
Mark of Slaanesh
Relic: Veilbreaker Plate
Spells: Smite, Prescience, Warp Time, Delightful Agonies
Master of Possession - Bolt Pistol, Staff of Possession, Frag and Krak Grenades
Spells: Smite, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
Dark Apostle - Bolt Pistol, Accursed Crozius, Frag and Krak Grenades
Mark of Slaanesh
Prayers: Dark Zealotry, Illusory Supplication, Blissful Devotion
2 x Dark Disciples
Chaos Contemptor - x2 Twin-volkite Culverins
Mark of Tzeentch
Chaos Terminators x 7 Terminators
x 2 Power Fists
x 1 Combi-melta
x 5 Accursed Weapons
x 6 Combi-bolters
Champion - Chainfist, Combi-melta
Mark of Slaanesh
Rubric Marines x 5 Rubric Marines
x 5 Warpflamers
Aspiring Sorcerer - Warpflame Pistol, Force Stave
Mark of Tzeentch
Spells: Smite, Infernal Gaze, Skeins of Fate
Legionnaires x 9 Legionnaires
x 9 Bolt Pistols
x 1 Lascannon
x 1 Heavy Bolter
x 6 Boltguns
x 1 Balefire Tome
Aspiring Champion - Bolt Pistol, Boltgun
Mark of Tzeentch
Spells: Smite, Diabolic Strength, Skeins of Fate
Cultists Mob x 9 Cultists
x 9 Cultist Firearms
Cultist Champion - Cultist Firearm
Cultists Mob x 9 Cultists
x 9 Cultist Firearms
Cultist Champion - Cultist Firearm
Dreadclaw Drop Pod - Blade Struts, Thermal Jets
Venomcrawler - x 2 Excruciator Cannons, Soulflayer Tendrils and Claws
Havocs x 4 Havocs
x 4 Lascannons
Havoc Champion - Boltgun
The list works like so: it can play defensively or offensively.
Offense
With the Sorcerer with the Plate I can get a Turn 1 charge on the Terminators fairly reliably using the MoP resurrection trick, so against a gunline I can drop the tough Terminator brick in the opponents midst very quickly. I use Merciless Overseer to make the Combi-meltas explode and have the Combi-bolters clear screens. Terminators charge screens, or exposed valuable targets. But in any case, they are a threat that needs dealing with Turn 1. I'm using Illusory Supplication, Diabolic Strength on the Champion, Prescience and Delightful Agonies to buff them.
Abaddon buffs the Legionnaires with reroll to hit and wound and I spend two command points on shoot twice and one to turn them into Emperor's Children. With Eternal Vendetta, the Contemptor, Havocs and Legionnaires get reroll wounds against a lot of targets, if I choose selection carefully. The shooting in the list usually cracks two to three tough targets in the first turn: Tank Commanders, Harpies, maybe Silent King etc. The Terminators can clear screens Turn 1 and threaten valuable targets on Turn 2. If they are charged they fight first and still have all the buffs.
Additionally, the Rubrics drop in the Dreadclaw to clear screens and target priority units with Infernal Gaze, on Turn 1. If there is a tough exposed unit, I can spend a command point to Smite them, then Infernal Gaze and then flame them. To me they are like Flamers but are a bit more reliable and can come in Turn 1. Turn 2 the Dreadclaw does mortal wounds, cracks vehicles etc. and the Rubrics flame something else, or do Banners.
Cultists are there for Banners and screening.
While the opponent is dealing with all this, I Warp Time Abaddon up the field and on the following Turn use the Apostle prayer to advance and charge him. Effectively, Terminators and Rubrics make a gap in the line and Abaddon gets charged in there.
Defense
Against an army that comes to me I have options. I can screen with the Cultists and the shooting from the list tends to get better the closer the opponent is.
Additionally, there are a lot of Smites here, with +1 to cast from the Venomcrawler, so the opponent risks getting hit by a wall of mortal wounds Turn 1.
The Contemptor can intercept, as can the Legionnaires.
I have potentially five denies and one from the Khorne strat with Abaddon, so psychic defense is decent here too.
Black Legion have a strat for fall back and shoot/charge so its hard to pin units down and Terminators and Abaddon fight first and provide a nasty counter punch. In the defensive scenario, I can also use Plate to teleport the Terminators late game.
Any thoughts?
Apologies for the giant post
Best,
Samii.
What secondaries do you play?
I have a similar list with vilbreaker plate sorcerer
I use
VETERAN RAIDER on the Sorcerer doing Psychic Interrogation Secondary with death hex and warp time just for the threat.
In your Command phase, you can select one friendly BLACK LEGION CORE or BLACK LEGION CHARACTER unit within 6" of this WARLORD. Until the end of the turn, that unit is eligible to shoot and declare a charge in a turn in which it Fell Back.
A excalted with cloak of conquest and character killing with Abaddon.
And a Slanessh Mop with Liber Hereticus for the 3 casts.
5 guys legionaries with prescience with black crusaders for +2 on a full terminator troops can shoot both bolt profiles without -1 on the meltas or fight without -1 on power fists.
Also 9 guys rubric with warp time in droppod.
And 5 + 1 Chaos Spawn as Abandons personal guard.
Don't know if anything of that is stronger than your combo, expect veteran raider. If I get one bonus round of shooting with unexpected extra movement through fall back and charge and the fight with +1 through black crusaders on the terminators I am deep in his troops/ or circling his troops directly infront of his characters for a happy little Bob Ross Accident with 4 2+ meltas and afterwards 4 2+ Powerfists!
One of the key things with the list Fip, is that it needs the command points to make the first turn shooting work: you need this as a CSM player.
The temptation is to spend all the command points on relics and warlord traits, but by keeping at least three in the bank I can do decent shooting in the first turn to equalize the natural disadvantage that CSM has in that area.
In turn 1 I jump out from behind obscuring cover and if I can remove two to three targets and/or clear out the cheaper screens and objective holders with Terminators and Rubrics, it puts the CSM units in a much stronger position than one where they are trading with shooting armies: basically just charging across the board.
Depending on the scenario, I use the command points to make the Legionaries shoot twice and turn them into Emperor's Children, so they ignore hit modifiers and get extra AP, with rerolls from Abaddon. I usually spend the last points on the Slaanesh strat to turn hits to 6's, or to Veterans the Rubrics, or have them cast twice.
The great thing is that this list can counter assault armies and can do assault well too. Turn 1 I can clear my opponent off objectives and box him in his DZ with the Terminators, so I have an advantage in Primary, while Cultists do banners etc., and I am able to clear out his chaff that would be doing the same; using the Terminators and Rubrics.
Looking at the best lists in CSM that do well: Emperor's Children and COB, I can't see how those lists do better at missions that this one. I don't have to die in combat, for example, to trade with my opponent's assault units and I shoot just as well, if not better than Emperor's Children. Furthermore, I can turn off Objective Secured and fall back and shoot/charge and have a better tactical toolkit at my disposal. While COB have a better secondary, I think I beat them on Primary and Banners every time against any opponent performance-wise.
What secondaries do you play else expect of banners?
I always having a hard time with secondaries for CSM.
I hadn't had much luck with double shooting legionaries in 8th edition with all CP invested. But maybe the full hit wound rerolls changes that.
Secondaries depend on opponent. Most of the time I take Banners and max it out and I can rely on outscoring Primary, or any of the mission-specific objectives that need actions. The damage output of the list means that I'll usually go for Grind, Bring it Down or No Prisoners. Against lists that don't give those up, I'll go for Engage, or Behind Enemy Lines with the Terminators and Rubrics/Pod.
I love psychic interrogation. The extra CP is always nice, and chances for it are getting higher with venomcrawler nearby or spawns/ raptors near enemy characters. I have my sorcerer tzeentch them for the one save and the one extra cast for 1 CP of for example death hex. Against those damn zooanthrops a real blessing if shadow in the warp doesn't denies it.
Did you had any games with that list against leviathan Tyranids with zooanthrops smites?
How I reliably do it.
You dreadclaw droppod the MoP in. Directly behind the Terminators. That way you also have protection for your sorcerer after the termis made the charge. And a shooty unit with droppod behind the Terminators clearing their way.
In my experience its not that hard to get the MoP into position: even from the DZ he can advance.
I usually string the Terminators out a bit if I need to.
Did you had any games with that list against leviathan Tyranids with zooanthrops smites?
Yes, I find them not to be a big problem. I have screens and Pod to eat Smites and I also have access to denies and the Khorne strat.
Against Tyranids I usually keep things back. The shooting elements deal with Harpies Turn 1 and stay out of sight.
Turn 2, I jump out and kill Warriors with shooting, Rubrics and Terminators. The counter punch hurts a bit, but then Abaddon gets catapulted into the center and it tends to collapse.
The only problem I had with Tyranids was Harpies killing my Banners units (Cultists) Turn 1 and undermining the secondary game. I had something similar happen with the Votann bikes. When an opponent learns to counter the list, it tends to be in this way: you really need the Cultists for actions and if the opponent has a way to remove them from behind cover quickly it can be a problem.
When I have some time, I will post a couple of the more interesting games I've had.
I had some thoughts and wanted to put down a few of my experiences with the list in anecdotal form: its been changing continually but I think I've refined it.
A few points:
1) I've made the units smaller. The Terminators are six man now. I find that six is enough to be able to string them back to the MoP if I need, while having a footprint sufficient to block enemy units. With six the Terminators have enough killing power to trade well, without giving away too much if/when the opponent kills them. The resource allocation to deal with them is always disproportionate and they cannot really be ignored.
By not over investing in Terminators it creates assets to use elsewhere.
2) Rubrics are a very good unit. This cannot be overstated. With the Pod they come in flame stuff, smite and contest.
If you include the potential mortal wound output and Veterans, they can exceed Flamers for damage on the drop, but also can apply it more multilaterally and with the Pod support they have a lot of utility. They also function better in melee, as they can use psychic powers and fall back and shoot, with the Black Legion strat.
A Black Legion Pod becomes an excellent vehicle hunter after it drops, as it gets +1 to hit on the charge, while the overwatch from the Rubrics dissuades potential counter charges.
3) I made the Legionnaires a five man unit. This gives me the points for a unit of Raptors with Flamers, that can score objectives, or drop in mid game. I also upgraded the Havocs with the Mark of Slaanesh. The auto 6 to hit strat works very well with them. I've found that these changes mean I am not as reliant on the Legionnaires for shooting; I can save the command points on the shoot twice strat.
3) I upgraded the Contemptor and the Apostle with the Mark of Khorne and gave the Contemptor rockets, in addition to Volkites. This gives the Contemptor exploding 6's in all turns after the first. It becomes a very reliable shooting platform for CSM, especially with rerolls from Abaddon. While advance and charge prayer is good for Abaddon, I find Warp Time is enough to get him where he needs to be.
These changes give me a bit more leverage over the faster MSU lists, like Harlequins.
3) I upgraded the Contemptor and the Apostle with the Mark of Khorne and gave the Contemptor rockets, in addition to Volkites. This gives the Contemptor exploding 6's in all turns after the first. It becomes a very reliable shooting platform for CSM, especially with rerolls from Abaddon. While advance and charge prayer is good for Abaddon, I find Warp Time is enough to get him where he needs to be.
These changes give me a bit more leverage over the faster MSU lists, like Harlequins.
Best Samii.
????
Mark of Khorne on the Contemptor would only give it +1 attacks in melee, nothing for shooting and no mark gives exploding 6s on shooting
Abaddon’s potential is wasted as a rear field buffing unit for the Contemptor (which should not be on the front lines with dual Volkite, it should in the back creating havoc while the rest of your boys do work on the front lines) this should be where abaddon is too, putting wanton slaughter on your melee units as well as dishing out rerolls on hits & wounds either for someone else or himself. Not to mention he’s practically invincible for the first 2 turn… he’s in the vanguard for me.
What prayer gives advance and charge for Black Legion? The only thing I know of is using the stratagem confluence of traitors - red corsairs for a turn.
Forgive my ignorance, but I'm watching a battle report right now where one of the players gave their warlord, a Night Lords Daemon Prince, two relics. I wasn't aware that this could be done. Is this accurate or an error?
ArcaneHorror wrote: Forgive my ignorance, but I'm watching a battle report right now where one of the players gave their warlord, a Night Lords Daemon Prince, two relics. I wasn't aware that this could be done. Is this accurate or an error?
accurate. if you read the stratagem, a character can be given two relics as long as one is a weapon replacement.
3) I upgraded the Contemptor and the Apostle with the Mark of Khorne and gave the Contemptor rockets, in addition to Volkites. This gives the Contemptor exploding 6's in all turns after the first. It becomes a very reliable shooting platform for CSM, especially with rerolls from Abaddon. While advance and charge prayer is good for Abaddon, I find Warp Time is enough to get him where he needs to be.
These changes give me a bit more leverage over the faster MSU lists, like Harlequins.
Best Samii.
????
Mark of Khorne on the Contemptor would only give it +1 attacks in melee, nothing for shooting and no mark gives exploding 6s on shooting
Abaddon’s potential is wasted as a rear field buffing unit for the Contemptor (which should not be on the front lines with dual Volkite, it should in the back creating havoc while the rest of your boys do work on the front lines) this should be where abaddon is too, putting wanton slaughter on your melee units as well as dishing out rerolls on hits & wounds either for someone else or himself. Not to mention he’s practically invincible for the first 2 turn… he’s in the vanguard for me.
What prayer gives advance and charge for Black Legion? The only thing I know of is using the stratagem confluence of traitors - red corsairs for a turn.
The Slaanesh prayer gives advance and charge. It's really, really good.
On the whole, I think you're right about the VolCon and Abaddon. Abaddon needs to be front and centre, throwing his weight around, not babysitting Dreadnoughts.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Forgive my ignorance, but I'm watching a battle report right now where one of the players gave their warlord, a Night Lords Daemon Prince, two relics. I wasn't aware that this could be done. Is this accurate or an error?
It is lots of fun with 2 relics and a warlord trait.
Like a khorne night lords demon prince with talisman of burning blood, killing furry warlord trait and Stygian court claws.
He gets 10 +D3 sword attacks ap-3 dmg 3, 2 Stygian court attacks. He is always in slaughter, so hits of 6 explode, he gets 6 inch heroic and every time he kills a unit he gets 1 attack. Don't forget to laugh while he Multikills What is your favourite overboosted character?
Ahhh… the marks! Didn’t know that one for the Slaanesh DA. I looked it up and 6” isn’t the greatest. It would be nice if it were an aura that affected all within range instead of specific god units but I suppose that would be cheesy. Killer prayer for EC though.
Samil, have your tried?:
Noise Marines full squad with blastmaster and sonic blasters and doom siren
Abaddon buffs on them full rerolls + assault 6s explodes, illusory supplicant from priest, Slanessh agonies for 5+, mutated invigoration for toughness 5 and black rune for -1 to wound?
You teleport them in with vilbreaker plate behind rubrics (or not, because they fight first and very good and can fall back and shoot for CP stratagem)
You make them Iron Warriors for 1 CP and therefore ignore cover and wound rolls can't be rerolled against them. Spend 1 CP for Slanessh Strat for blastmaster extra hit or wound if all fails for save 4 dmg. And with the 3 Assault shots per model on full rerolls and exploding 6s you clear the cover you want to jump into next turn. As the cover can be 9 inch from the cover and as your weapons are assault you can either advance in with a 3 or warptime in. Sorcerer infernal gazes and smites or warptimes them to a better position (guess warptime is legal, as the noise marines started on the board? But you need warptime to move Abandon or MoP so nevermind)
You can also try to be very clever and bring Abaddon in range with warptime and advance for that +1 charge and charge reroll so a charge that is successful in 65% of the cases to charge into the cover after you shoot the nearest melee threat to bully the shooting units in that cover with 3 attacks per model full rerolls (Or do the MoP trick as possibility for success is higher).
When your enemy wants to fall back next turn you shoot again with 2 CP excessive cruelty with full rerolls exploding 6s into that unit and then weather the storm with all your buffs as they and the iron warriors no wound reroll is still working. If not perfect, you fight first and doge all shooting and in your turn 2 you can fall back and shoot for those 2 CP that you didn't spent on excessive cruelty. Or you infernal gaze + double smite them free for no CP cost.
Terminators can drop in then near Abaddon to mop up with him while the rubrics warptime somewhere else. Round 3, buff em up again and let them stand still for 1 CP to advance + warptime them 12 +D6 inches to cause the next close-up mayhem.
Long story short, with that big dick energy move you will be winning more than Donald Trump.
Can you use iron warrior stratagems while they have that trait? I guess not, but I am not sure.
Can you warptime a unit that you teleported with vilbreaker plate?
ArcaneHorror wrote: Forgive my ignorance, but I'm watching a battle report right now where one of the players gave their warlord, a Night Lords Daemon Prince, two relics. I wasn't aware that this could be done. Is this accurate or an error?
It is lots of fun with 2 relics and a warlord trait.
Like a khorne night lords demon prince with talisman of burning blood, killing furry warlord trait and Stygian court claws.
He gets 10 +D3 sword attacks ap-3 dmg 3, 2 Stygian court attacks. He is always in slaughter, so hits of 6 explode, he gets 6 inch heroic and every time he kills a unit he gets 1 attack. Don't forget to laugh while he Multikills What is your favourite overboosted character?
I haven't tried the codex yet, but I was thinking that it could be fun to put Axe of the Forgemaster and Fleshmetal Exoskeleton on an Iron Warriors Terminator Lord of Nurgle. For the WT, I was thinking that it could be to use Flames of Spite to mimic the effects of a plague weapon (I'm using a Lord of Contagion as the basis for the unit).
Nurgle word bearer demon with GORGET OF ETERNAL HATE ASHEN AXE and wl trait EXALTED POSSESSION. Some MoP to cast mutated invigoration and pact of flesh next round.
You fly in 14 inches and start hitting stuff with multi charges so you box the enemy in his deployment zone. -1 to hit and everything wounds you on 5 or higher. 2+ 4++ and with HEXAGRAMMATIC WARD you can hopefully outlive your enemy. Or Slanessh for 5+ feel no pain.
Edit:
Maybe make the DP Slanessh to boost him with an dark apostle with Slanessh prayer and illusory supplicant. With advance and charge you can make the charge happen. Also DAEMONIC WHISPERS for the command points, epistle of logar for 2 prayers cast. I guess it wouldn't work, but still a fun try.
Nurgle word bearer demon with GORGET OF ETERNAL HATE ASHEN AXE and wl trait EXALTED POSSESSION. Some MoP to cast mutated invigoration and pact of flesh next round.
You fly in 14 inches and start hitting stuff with multi charges so you box the enemy in his deployment zone. -1 to hit and everything wounds you on 5 or higher. 2+ 4++ and with HEXAGRAMMATIC WARD you can hopefully outlive your enemy. Or Slanessh for 5+ feel no pain.
Edit:
Maybe make the DP Slanessh to boost him with an dark apostle with Slanessh prayer and illusory supplicant. With advance and charge you can make the charge happen. Also DAEMONIC WHISPERS for the command points, epistle of logar for 2 prayers cast. I guess it wouldn't work, but still a fun try.
Multi-charging with a single model, even one on a 60mm base, is pretty much impossible unless your opponent allows it. The Ashen Axe is a bad relic because if you're buffing your attacks you really want to just be killing the enemy outright and it only triggers on a failed LD test, which is rare. Sending a DP into the middle of the enemy is a good way to get them killed. Their protection simply isn't that good, and they will die, which feels like a waste for such a potentially useful character.
Quick question: Any tanks you guys deem REALLY good to play them in CSM?
I like tanks, but unfortunately it seems 9th is not really friendly to them? Any tanks you guys still play? (Vindicator for exanple? maybe a tank heavy list?)
LeRufus wrote: Quick question: Any tanks you guys deem REALLY good to play them in CSM?
I like tanks, but unfortunately it seems 9th is not really friendly to them? Any tanks you guys still play? (Vindicator for exanple? maybe a tank heavy list?)
Thanks!
Short answer: Not really.
Vindis are a candidate because their updated profile is less swingy (D3+3 shots vs D6).
The LandRaider might be decent due to being T9, but still expensive.
Frankly, I think vehicles overall needs some points drop.
EDIT: lemme rephrase that a bit. You can be successful with a vehicle list full of rhinos as AoC just ups the annoyance that your opponent has to focus to devote to destroying that metal box.
But a list with a bunch of CSM tanks? I've yet to see any list do okay competitively, but you'll probably do fine in casual games.
LeRufus wrote: Quick question: Any tanks you guys deem REALLY good to play them in CSM?
I like tanks, but unfortunately it seems 9th is not really friendly to them? Any tanks you guys still play? (Vindicator for exanple? maybe a tank heavy list?)
Thanks!
Thanks for the reminder...
The Kratos rules for loyalists were released 07-Jun-22. CSM when!?
I'm just memeing at this point anyway. The loyalist Kratos datasheet looks real sad next to the new Rogal Dorn.
Just in regards to the two points RE Abaddon and Contemptor:
1) Its not the mark, its the Khorne prayer specifically that gives exploding 6's, as it puts you in all doctrines. That's why I switched the Mark on the Apostle.
2) In my games Abaddon buffs in the first and second turn, and then gets catapulted across the field with Warp Time and/or advance and charge. In my experience, he hits at the same time as if you teleported him, because he has to wait until Turn 2 to come on and then there's a chance he may fail the charge even with a reroll.
Its just you get the benefit of the buffs with this method and it makes the opponent play more defensively in the mid-field, for fear of an early Abaddon counter charge.
Just to emphasize one further point RE Abaddon, Contemptor etc.
I went back to the buffed Legionnaire unit.
I think most people play CSM as a battering ram melee army. CoB run across the board and trade into melee armies well, while EC melee and shoot well also with Noise Marines.
But I actually think this paradigm is mistaken. CSM don't have the best assault units. Possessed and Chosen are good, but lack AP and strength/damage output, respectively. Terminators are good, but need support. CSM characters (Abaddon, Lord Discordant, Daemon Prince etc.) are probably the best in the game, in terms of damage output, but they need a lot of command point and relic investment. CSM are also not very fast.
My playstyle is more of a quick strike, feint and counterpunch style. I actually think this is the strongest style for CSM.
Let me explain.
Turn 1, a smaller 6-man Terminator brick gets shot across the board, with buffs for a Turn 1 charge. Opponent has to deal with it. Pod can drop in with Rubrics to support, or attack from another angle. Shooting eliminates key counter threats.
Turn 2, opponent reacts, has to split attention or focus on Terminators, neither are good options. I respond with more shooting from Contemptor, Havocs and Legionnaires, chipping away. Abaddon is positioned for a Turn 3 charge.
Turn 3, Abaddon charges and, again, opponent has to choose to focus on him or the other threats.
Meanwhile, I am scoring with Cultists, Spawn, Rubrics, Legionnaires, Pod etc.
This list emphasizes target saturation. The shooting obviously can't compare to Tau, Astra Militarum, but over time it has the effect of slowly chipping away the opponents assets, while the melee elements do work and scoring units score. It doesn't have the same melee damage output as an optimized CSM list, but it doesn't need it and in my opinion CSM melee is not optimal. You just don't have the speed, or across the board damage output.
Instead you pull the opponent into a war of attrition with probing strikes, where his mistakes are punished more than yours. Its a much more reactive playstyle. Think the boxing style of Floyd Mayweather.
It also works well as Black Legion, as you need the ability to support Abaddon with Warp Time, healing, or potentially to put him in the Pod, if needs be.
Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost
Game Type: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim
Legion: Creations of Bile
+ HQ +
Abaddon the Despoiler [15 PL, -1CP, 300pts]: 3. Merciless Overseer, 5. Eternal Vendetta, 6. Paragon of Hatred, Stratagem: Warlord Trait
Master of Possession [7 PL, -2CP, 120pts]: 5.-6. Twisted Regeneration, Aspiring Lord, Liber Hereticus, Mark of Slaanesh, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh, Stratagem: Relic
notable things: they have the proper current keywords, including CULTISTS, and can take a wargear assortment easily matched by plastic kriegers (which are easy to de-aquila)
currently running two squads with flamer, plasma and a sniper per unit. (flamer because I usually run word bearers for casual, cultists with LTGB is fun)
It's pretty much entirely down to cost. The whole point of cultists is that they're cheap and you don't expect them to do anything other than hold an objective or two, raise banners and screen out deep strike. Ideally, they do all that without exposing themselves to enemy fire.
If you have 10 points to spare there are probably worse ways to use it than upgrading a Cultist Mob to Traitor Guard but the overall impact is still going to be quite low.
Slipspace wrote: It's pretty much entirely down to cost. The whole point of cultists is that they're cheap and you don't expect them to do anything other than hold an objective or two, raise banners and screen out deep strike. Ideally, they do all that without exposing themselves to enemy fire.
If you have 10 points to spare there are probably worse ways to use it than upgrading a Cultist Mob to Traitor Guard but the overall impact is still going to be quite low.
I originally had the same sort of thinking, then I actually had the sniper rifles and plasma achieving results, and the flamer serving as a deterrent on objectives. cultists mobs with flamers are only 5pt difference, and cultists mobs aren't effectively morale immune either.
If you include the cost of a Traitor Enforcer, then 30 Traitor Guardsmen are 225 pts, or 75 per squad.
The Traitor Enforcer themselves feels like a wasted slot and an Assassination liablity.
I'm somewhat ok with the idea of spending a spare 10 pts upgrading 10 Cultists to 10 Traitor Guardsmen (and doing it 3 times) but so far in list building I've found other pressing ways to spend the points (such as adding one/two more Marks).
I suppose the question could also be 30 Traitor Guardsmen vs. 30 Cultists + 1 Spawn? 30 TG + 1 TE vs. 30 Cultists + 3 Spawn?
I've been looking at Black Legion a lot recently and I'm wondering how people are playing these strategems in tournaments:
BRINGERS OF DESPAIR 2CP
Use this Stratagem at the start of your opponent’s Fight phase. Select one BLACK LEGION CHAOS TERMINATOR SQUAD unit within 3" of one or more enemy units.
That unit is eligible to fight and fights first this phase.
Until the end of the phase, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in that unit.
So, use case #1 - 10 Terminators standing 2.5" away from an enemy unit, not in engagement range of anyone, you spend 2 CP and then because you are eligible to fight, you can pile in 3", smash in the face of the unit, consolidate.
Use case #2 - 10 Terminators in engagement range of the enemy (either got charged or ongoing combat), you spend 2 CP, the enemy gets to pick a first charging unit but afterwards you fight as if an interrupt (no stacking) but get +1A and then maybe a second unit could interrupt as well a bit later.
Doesn't seem too controversial a take on this strategem, I just feel like I'll end up arguing about it at least once per tournament.
CONFLUENCE OF TRAITORS 1CP
Use this Stratagem in your Command phase. Select one BLACK LEGION HERETIC ASTARTES unit from your army, then select one Legion Trait. Until the start of your next Command phase, models in that unit have that Legion Trait. You can only use this Stratagem once.
I have a bit more of a controversial take for this one. But I assume I get to keep the BLACK LEGION trait as well as have the CREATIONS OF BILE trait, as it doesn't say replace the legiong trait, I just have it? The value of this strategem drops a decent amount if you lose the BLACK LEGION trait as it prevents spending the CP to get more damage output on top of what you already have.
EightFoldPath wrote: If you include the cost of a Traitor Enforcer, then 30 Traitor Guardsmen are 225 pts, or 75 per squad.
The Traitor Enforcer themselves feels like a wasted slot and an Assassination liablity.
I'm somewhat ok with the idea of spending a spare 10 pts upgrading 10 Cultists to 10 Traitor Guardsmen (and doing it 3 times) but so far in list building I've found other pressing ways to spend the points (such as adding one/two more Marks).
I suppose the question could also be 30 Traitor Guardsmen vs. 30 Cultists + 1 Spawn? 30 TG + 1 TE vs. 30 Cultists + 3 Spawn?
I've been looking at Black Legion a lot recently and I'm wondering how people are playing these strategems in tournaments:
BRINGERS OF DESPAIR 2CP
Use this Stratagem at the start of your opponent’s Fight phase. Select one BLACK LEGION CHAOS TERMINATOR SQUAD unit within 3" of one or more enemy units.
That unit is eligible to fight and fights first this phase.
Until the end of the phase, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in that unit.
So, use case #1 - 10 Terminators standing 2.5" away from an enemy unit, not in engagement range of anyone, you spend 2 CP and then because you are eligible to fight, you can pile in 3", smash in the face of the unit, consolidate.
Use case #2 - 10 Terminators in engagement range of the enemy (either got charged or ongoing combat), you spend 2 CP, the enemy gets to pick a first charging unit but afterwards you fight as if an interrupt (no stacking) but get +1A and then maybe a second unit could interrupt as well a bit later.
Doesn't seem too controversial a take on this strategem, I just feel like I'll end up arguing about it at least once per tournament.
CONFLUENCE OF TRAITORS 1CP
Use this Stratagem in your Command phase. Select one BLACK LEGION HERETIC ASTARTES unit from your army, then select one Legion Trait. Until the start of your next Command phase, models in that unit have that Legion Trait. You can only use this Stratagem once.
I have a bit more of a controversial take for this one. But I assume I get to keep the BLACK LEGION trait as well as have the CREATIONS OF BILE trait, as it doesn't say replace the legiong trait, I just have it? The value of this strategem drops a decent amount if you lose the BLACK LEGION trait as it prevents spending the CP to get more damage output on top of what you already have.
By my reading, you keep the BL Trait.
However, regardless of whether or not you have the BL Trait, you still have the BLKeyword, which should be all you need to use Strats.
thepowerfulwill wrote: Anyone in the mathhammer side of things know if Illusinary Suplication or Benediction of Darkness mathmatically better for buffing units?
Depends what's targeting you, basically. And what unit you're protecting.
thepowerfulwill wrote: Anyone in the mathhammer side of things know if Illusinary Suplication or Benediction of Darkness mathmatically better for buffing units?
Depends what's targeting you, basically. And what unit you're protecting.
Illusory Supplication is the better choice in most circumstances.
Benediction of Darkness grants Light Cover.
Pros:
1) Staying at a 2+ save against AP2 is very good.
2) Aura so can hit multiple units.
Cons:
1) You can get Light Cover from another source.
2) There are a wide range of abilities that ignore Light Cover.
3) If you have an invulnerable save, gaining Light Cover might not matter.
4) If you have a 2+ save and they have 0/1 AP, gaining Light Cover will not matter.
5) Light Cover does nothing for you in combat.
6) Aura so can't "follow" a charging unit.
Illusory Supplication grants can only be hit on a 4+ and no hit re-rolls.
Pros:
1) There are a vast range of abilities that grant re-roll 1s to hit, they get turned off.
2) There are a wide range of abilities that grant re-roll all hits, they get turned off.
3) There are a wide range of units that have a WS/BS of 2+, they get the equivalent of -2 to hit.
4) There are a vast range of units that have a WS/BS of 3+, they get the equivalent of -1 to hit.
5) Both bits work in shooting and combat.
6) It is a targetted buff so it can "follow" the unit.
Cons:
1) Some factions only hit on 4s.
2) Some different factions don't really do much re-rolling to hit.
Illusory Supplication is the better choice in most circumstances.
Benediction of Darkness grants Light Cover.
Pros:
1) Staying at a 2+ save against AP2 is very good.
2) Aura so can hit multiple units.
Cons:
1) You can get Light Cover from another source.
2) There are a wide range of abilities that ignore Light Cover.
3) If you have an invulnerable save, gaining Light Cover might not matter.
4) If you have a 2+ save and they have 0/1 AP, gaining Light Cover will not matter.
5) Light Cover does nothing for you in combat.
6) Aura so can't "follow" a charging unit.
Illusory Supplication grants can only be hit on a 4+ and no hit re-rolls.
Pros:
1) There are a vast range of abilities that grant re-roll 1s to hit, they get turned off.
2) There are a wide range of abilities that grant re-roll all hits, they get turned off.
3) There are a wide range of units that have a WS/BS of 2+, they get the equivalent of -2 to hit.
4) There are a vast range of units that have a WS/BS of 3+, they get the equivalent of -1 to hit.
5) Both bits work in shooting and combat.
6) It is a targetted buff so it can "follow" the unit.
Cons:
1) Some factions only hit on 4s.
2) Some different factions don't really do much re-rolling to hit.
Hi Guys, given the current codex and tools, what would you suggest to face heavy shooting armies such Tau and the upcoming Guard?
AL with its minuses to long range and the capacity to redeploy and move pregame seems the way to go, do you agree? (also auto explosions to chip away those castles)
Havocs and Obliterators are sure lackluster compared to Terminators and Possessed, but I feel we need some heavy shooting to take out screened vehicles and vulnerable units, what's your experience?
More in general, the problem is ofc not the Terminator brick, but the rest of the elites such as Possessed and Havocs that get cancelled before applying any real damage
BillyN831 wrote: Is a Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion in two Land Raiders with Khorne Berserkers still a thing?
This sounds 8th edition-ey, maybe even earlier edition. Dark Apostles in 9th don't really like starting in transports unless you are willing to spend 2 CP to do a prayer.
DarklyDreaming wrote: Hi Guys, given the current codex and tools, what would you suggest to face heavy shooting armies such Tau and the upcoming Guard?
AL with its minuses to long range and the capacity to redeploy and move pregame seems the way to go, do you agree? (also auto explosions to chip away those castles)
Havocs and Obliterators are sure lackluster compared to Terminators and Possessed, but I feel we need some heavy shooting to take out screened vehicles and vulnerable units, what's your experience?
More in general, the problem is ofc not the Terminator brick, but the rest of the elites such as Possessed and Havocs that get cancelled before applying any real damage
CSM do look like they are going to struggle with Guard, especially when Flamers get nerfed and can no longer carry CSM/TS/Daemons on their firey backs. I think the other option to better shooting is instead better speed on your melee. AL have the pregame move strat that keeps calling to me. EC have Honour the Prince. All legions have the MoP stab/res jank that I think is going to become more common (as CSM become less common).
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm still upset over the fact that if we take two relics on a model that one cannot be a daemon weapon. It seem like such a pointless and unfun rule.
Sounds 100% like a current GW rule. Why make something simple when you have have 16 different caveats to remember.
DarklyDreaming wrote: Hi Guys, given the current codex and tools, what would you suggest to face heavy shooting armies such Tau and the upcoming Guard?
AL with its minuses to long range and the capacity to redeploy and move pregame seems the way to go, do you agree? (also auto explosions to chip away those castles)
Havocs and Obliterators are sure lackluster compared to Terminators and Possessed, but I feel we need some heavy shooting to take out screened vehicles and vulnerable units, what's your experience?
More in general, the problem is ofc not the Terminator brick, but the rest of the elites such as Possessed and Havocs that get cancelled before applying any real damage
Havocs are generally terrible anyway, so not taking them is hardly a drawback. Possessed actually should do OK against a lot of Guard armies. The T5 helps against tank shooting and they are fast enough to use terrain to their advantage a lot of the time. Tagging the tanks is still a useful tactic, even with the new Turret Weapon rule. Sadly CSM shooting is still pretty bad, and the best solution is, as ever, Blastmasters, which isn't much help unless you're EC.
Failing that we just need to hope for a points drop on Oblits in January, because they have decent stats into Guard tanks, they just cost far too much.
Slipspace wrote: Tagging the tanks is still a useful tactic, even with the new Turret Weapon rule. Sadly CSM shooting is still pretty bad, and the best solution is, as ever, Blastmasters, which isn't much help unless you're EC.
I've not seen/experienced this, but this theory I saw gave me pause when thinking about IG tank tagging. Say they have 6 LRBTs spread out, you tag all six tanks with six different units. The IG player can retreat 1~2 of the 6, lose all their shooting, but then shoot the 4~5 remaining turrets at the now 1~2 exposed unit(s) while shooting all the sponsons into the combats they are in.
The main issue with CSM is the amount of D2 and the IG tank's access to a -1D strat. I've forgotten the exact figures but I ran the numbers on 5 and 10 man Termies/Possessed/Chosen/Warp Talons into LRBTs and nothing felt efficient.
more seriously, allied war dogs might actually be an interesting take, same with raptors with a fist and twin melta.
Personally in the couple games so far against new guard, Rapier Laser Destroyers are proving to be a pretty decent take to do some good damage on the stuff I can't reach
if things get desperate there's always warpflamer rubrics.
There are rare times when you most definitely don't want to kill the target. Not common but there are those.
Real game example I ran into. I was fighting vs near dead chaos knight. Another with double guns including relic that can provide tons of mortal wounds. I had skarbrand in fight making it extremely unlikely he can fall back. Thus I wanted to keep the thing alive rather than let that other knight shoot me at will. Thus I opted for weapon profile that was LEAST likely to kill...And did just that with 1 failed save away from destruction. Shooty knight was reduced to try to stomp skarbrand alive.
So unusual but sometimes you want to keep negatives
I'm toying with this idea. I already run the MoP, since he is a warp locus I've though about finagling some Flamers into a little patrol detachment. MoP gets dropped up-field with his cadre of Chosen, then immediately the Flamers get dropped in behind and begin cooking anything alive.... I think phase chronology allows this, just something that I thought of in the car on my war to work I'm not super unfamiliar with the Chaos Daemon codex though, don't know if they have access to their warp strike stuff when not in a fully fledged Daemon army.
edit: reading through the daemon rules, the MoP would have to be Tzeentch psyker (I believe...per the Manifestation rules) to allows the flamers to drop in. The MoP would also need to be *on the field* at the start of the round to allow this turn 1 shenanigan to occur...thus it's placement inside the drop pod is prohibitive to the ability.
I'm toying with this idea. I already run the MoP, since he is a warp locus I've though about finagling some Flamers into a little patrol detachment. MoP gets dropped up-field with his cadre of Chosen, then immediately the Flamers get dropped in behind and begin cooking anything alive.... I think phase chronology allows this, just something that I thought of in the car on my war to work I'm not super unfamiliar with the Chaos Daemon codex though, don't know if they have access to their warp strike stuff when not in a fully fledged Daemon army.
edit: reading through the daemon rules, the MoP would have to be Tzeentch psyker (I believe...per the Manifestation rules) to allows the flamers to drop in. The MoP would also need to be *on the field* at the start of the round to allow this turn 1 shenanigan to occur...thus it's placement inside the drop pod is prohibitive to the ability.
A) flamers getting nerfbat on dataslate.
B) no manifestation turn 1
C) yes master needs to be tzeentch and start turn on board.
D) manifestation outside daemon army only near warp locus.
tneva82 wrote: What makes it flamer weapon? Word flames?
Flames tend to indicate flames. Kinda obvious.
Also their fluff specifies launching flames. Artwork depicts them shooting flame. The Exalted Flamer mini literally has fire spewing out of him. They're literally called Flamers. It's about the least subtle GW gets with their daemons and what they're about.
What about this is unclear to you?
You're attempting to make a "What's in a Name/Style over Substance" argument, except that this style has substance: Repeated and emphasised use of flames and flame motifs in conjunction with... and I can't believe I have to say their name and have it still not be obvious to you: FLAMERS.
The exalted flamers blue fire attack doesnt automatically hit, he is also called a flamer, and the guns name is fire of tzeentch. Lots of fire and flame there as well, but no autohit. The guns second profile called pink fire does autohit, though.
This bickering about what does an does not constitute an auto-hitting flamer-like weapon is about as arbitrary as it gets... The unit/weapons do whatever GW says they do, and they'll call them what they want. -fin-
I'd like to move onto mor relevant material now...
How many legionaries do you guys like bringing to Nephilim games for the purpose of scoring objectives. How many units, and how many models within each? I have my cultists, and I plan on keeping at least one unit for low risk objectives, however I need some expendable but hardier choices on the board.
I'll amend that I run black legion...so I have access to "Heralds of Doom" which allows Black Legion legionaries to removed enemy objective secured . Coupled with Long War (A traditionally dismal secondary).... It could be a powerful tactic.
Legionaries can be OK in 5-man squads with the Tome to make them a psyker, but you probably only want one unit. A 5-man Khorne unit with an icon, in a Rhino can also be OK. The only CSM Legion that tends to run lots of power armoured Troops is Emperor's Children, but that's really just for the access to Blastmasters.
I'll amend that I run black legion...so I have access to "Heralds of Doom" which allows Black Legion legionaries to removed enemy objective secured . Coupled with Long War (A traditionally dismal secondary).... It could be a powerful tactic.
So you just fill your troop slots with cultists?
Heralds of Doom is 2 CP so the reality of it is you probably use it once to score 4~10 or prevent your opponent scoring 4~10 if they give you the opportunity.
So for now, yes fill Troops slots with Cultists. When the new AoO detachment comes out, maybe drop Troops altogether (unless some mystery rule Makes Troops Great Again).
Yes i do. I hope legionaries will get a reasonable point drop next month, something like 3-4 points. If AoC is removed they need to drop something like 6 points.
Yes i do. I hope legionaries will get a reasonable point drop next month, something like 3-4 points. If AoC is removed they need to drop something like 6 points.
Do we really want a basic CSM to be worth less than twice what a Guardsman is worth?
I'd much, MUCH rather have them be badass than cheap.
Yes i do. I hope legionaries will get a reasonable point drop next month, something like 3-4 points. If AoC is removed they need to drop something like 6 points.
Do we really want a basic CSM to be worth less than twice what a Guardsman is worth?
I'd much, MUCH rather have them be badass than cheap.
Well that's not what we're gonna get when AoC is removed, even though the new darlings Votaan get to keep an even better version of it.
Yes i do. I hope legionaries will get a reasonable point drop next month, something like 3-4 points. If AoC is removed they need to drop something like 6 points.
Do we really want a basic CSM to be worth less than twice what a Guardsman is worth?
I'd much, MUCH rather have them be badass than cheap.
Well dg dropping 2 pts so 6 pts is pipe dream from wildest hallucinations.
Yes i do. I hope legionaries will get a reasonable point drop next month, something like 3-4 points. If AoC is removed they need to drop something like 6 points.
Do we really want a basic CSM to be worth less than twice what a Guardsman is worth?
I'd much, MUCH rather have them be badass than cheap.
Well dg dropping 2 pts so 6 pts is pipe dream from wildest hallucinations.
just as much as GW halucinating seeing PM's or CSM lists based on Legionaires then.
If currently Cultists are considered "better" than AoC Legionaries, then it does feel like Legionaries are going to need a new rule or a steep discount to catch up post AoC.
I'm also wondering the same for DG, for Poxwalkers vs AoC Plague Marines, I favoured the Poxwalkers, so Poxwalkers vs. non AoC but cheaper PMs feels like a win for the Poxwalkers too.
I do sometimes run one squad of mark of tzeentch legionaries, if only because it's fun to stack a couple stratagems to turn them into a bullet hose firing ap -2 bolters with a volley of plasma.
Did we get a nerf without us ever being that dominant in the first place?
-Lost AOC...fine
-Terminators went up 3 points
-Abby rocketed up 50 (that's probably warranted...)
-MoS went up 5 points
-CoB ability nerfed
Cost improvement: Defiler went down 5 points lol. Small changes, but with the exception of the Abby increase I don't feel like we were particularly dominant. Opposite thoughts?
To me the most interesting thing about the new points changes is that Legionaries get all of their equipment other than the bale tome for free. While I am probably going to limit troops as they are not necessary, 5 Legionaries with a Plasma gun, Chain Cannon, melee weapon on the Sergent and plasma pi is only 90 points. Down from like 120-130. That is not a bad backfield objective holder. Also icon is free now, so +15 points and you get -1 ap from Tzeentch which makes plasma -4 and chain cannon -2. At only 105 points I am thinking of taking that.
Also a ten man with with Tzeentch for the bolters and all the weapons (chain cannon, plasma gun) is only 195. Also might not be bad.
The cost increase on the terminators sucks, they should have withheld that until after everyone sees how loss of AoC really affects surivivability.
also, Chosen should have gotten a price decrease. They were already edged out by Terminators (which are still better despite the increase) and possessed. Also they should really make their ability just that they are in all three wantons from the start. Needing to kill something means that ability is not really going to kick in until turn 3 if you are lucky (as you are unlikely to kill something turn 1) which doesn't help as then you are going to be in slaughter anyway and all you gain is exploding 6's on rapid fire, which is like "yea....so what".
The loss of AoC is probably the biggest thing, but I think everyone saw that coming.
Kangarupe wrote: Did we get a nerf without us ever being that dominant in the first place?
-Lost AOC...fine
-Terminators went up 3 points
-Abby rocketed up 50 (that's probably warranted...)
-MoS went up 5 points
-CoB ability nerfed
Cost improvement: Defiler went down 5 points lol. Small changes, but with the exception of the Abby increase I don't feel like we were particularly dominant. Opposite thoughts?
Another thing abby looks to be bit harder to fit into non-csm armies without breaking purity bonuses. For example not sure can chaos knight get all knight have same god faction keyword?
Someone help me come to my senses. I feel like rubric marine stock is rapidly rising:
-strategic reserves will be free in Arks… so drop in within flamer attack range
- (-2) AP weapons (warpflamers) have now become more deadly with AOC removed
- rubrics have their own, better version of AOC
- as far as I know warpflamers get “let the galaxy burn” +2 damage
- detachments in Arks free’d up, less troops more elites
…I know they were popular before but they feel super deadly now. Or I’m very wrong. ??♂️
Edit: -3AP with the icon of flame which supposedly costs nothing in the new dataslate
Maybe not “better” than AOC, the +1 to the save is worded a little janky, still!
Rubrics dont get an ICON, their icon of flame is not the same. LTGB is not +2 damage, its +2 hits with flamers. Also read the rules for strategic reserves how, when, and where they can arrive.
p5freak wrote: Rubrics dont get an ICON, their icon of flame is not the same. LTGB is not +2 damage, its +2 hits with flamers. Also read the rules for strategic reserves how, when, and where they can arrive.
Ah ok, I had wondered that...all right, no icon. And yeah, morning hours bonehead forgetfulness on LTGB, but still pretty solid. 10 man squad guaranteeing at least 30 auto-hits ain't shabby. As for the reinforcement rules...yeah I think I've got that down: Turn 2 onward, staying 9" away, generally on any one of 3 sides of the board other than opponent battlefield edge. Can't charge, no issue there...just there to lay down fire on the first go (hopefully not leaving too much / anything on the board to charge next turn :/ )
Just realized and I find this absolutely hilarious, but Blightlord Terminators are 4 more points a model than the CSM version, but get wargear free. That seems balanced LOL.
Does anyone know what size the Blood Slaughterer is to the Venomcrawler? I've heard of some people of thinking about making a Venomcrawler into a Blood Slaughterer, and I was wondering if such a thing would make sense.
I was interested to see the differences with Arks of Omen and dataslate/munitorum.
My old Black Legion list, the one I posted a while back, was undefeated in Nephilim. Sometimes with big wins 90+ to about 40 against Tyranids, Votann, new AM, Quins etc.
So I've tried a few speculative tests with the info from WC and the dataslate/munitorum. In short the list is even better now.
I've replaced the Pod with a Dreadblade War Dog Brigand with MOTDM and the Daemonic Surge trait. Other than that list is basically the same, as Legionnaires are cheaper and I dropped Marks on Contemptor, Apostle and Havocs.
My thoughts RE the changes:
1) Secondaries look good from what I hear. When scoring isn't an issue, having better Secondaries gives an army room to breathe. Cultists will still win games based on their tertiary actions, screening and Banners.
2) Rubrics with Warp Time are as good as pre-nerf Flamers. The OW makes them a problem. I can see Plague Marines as a viable alternative, but Rubrics will shine more now that Marines lost AoC and will be the new Meta.
3) AoC isn't as big of a deal. With the 4++ Tzeentch power and cover you retain roughly the same survivability on the basic Marine units. Terminators never relied on AoC to be unkillable and they still present a bigger problem than the Loyalist equivalent, when they can be charged on Turn 1 and can shoot/clear chaff off objectives.
4) The War Dog, is the icing on the cake. I don't lose command points to take it, assuming we're the same as IK. In addition to the Terminators it is potentially a Transhit, Transhuman, 4++ shooting platform that can get back up on death, is Objective Secured and provides very efficient firepower to an army that lacks it.
5) Abaddon in BL is bonkers, being able to heal him, Warp Time and advance and charge makes him still worth the points.
There's ways around the loss of AoC and my shooting got better, it gained about 30% efficiency versus Marines, Sisters and AM. Nids, Tau, Quins and Votann all got heavily nerfed with points increases.
In fairness while Marines did drop in points, I can't see a marine list that gives more than 300-400 points from those changes and my army is now even more efficient at killing them, than they me.
My list gained about 30% effectiveness at killing Marines, with the loss of AoC. In some cases, its even more.
Marine vehicles, for example, are a lot more vulnerable now, up to 100% more in a lot of cases versus anti-tank weapons.
Storm Shields are good, but most of the units with those (excluding SW and WS) won't be hitting me until mid-game and I find that marine Storm Shield units are still a bit weak in melee and are just horribly slow.
Massed S4 fire also hurts them proportionally more, as well.
Remember, I'm building around Tzeentch Legionnaires, with -1 AP or -2 AP Boltguns, shooting twice, rerolling hits and wounds. I've lost nothing in firepower, gained another reliable shooting platform and am significantly better at killing marines than I was before. Ditto for Rubrics, with AP -2.
The marines would need to be playing with about 600-700 more points of marine bodies than me to make that difference up, not 300-400 points of free wargear.
In terms of resilience, the 4++ power is what gets the Legionnaires back to the old AoC break point. Its the only weak unit in the list, but that power mitigates it somewhat and its a bit easier to cast with a Venomcrawler nearby. The Terminators are still unkillable. The War Dog is another unit that can't be ignored, but is not efficient to shoot. And then there's Abaddon, who can just fold up an entire flank on his own.
I gained more threat saturation and proportionally more efficiency versus the army that is set to become the new Meta.
All-in-all I think CSM will be OK, but that's just my initial thoughts.
Interesting posts Samii, with some of what you are saying able to cross over to TSons too.
H.B.M.C. look away now:
Spoiler:
It is a shame the Legionaries datasheet isn't as complicated as the Death Guard Plague Marines sheet, as their access to free wargear isn't as exciting as PMs.
The best melee build seems to be 5 man only and is just two weapons (so he has a choice) on the Champion and a heavy chainaxe, with three ablative wounds (that can take a gun or two). it is a shame there weren't an extra 3 or 4 useless and overpriced melee options that now become interesting once free.
I'm also not sold on the 10 Tzeentch Legionaries compared to 10 Rubrics even at the new discounted cost. I'd assume in AoO you would only really look at that Legionaries load out if you'd already got max Elites/Rubrics?
Samii wrote: Marine vehicles, for example, are a lot more vulnerable now, up to 100% more in a lot of cases versus anti-tank weapons.
That doesn't sound right. Damage doubling from armour save drop happens when 2+ goes to 3+ but what anti tank weapons left marines with 2+ save with AOC that now goes to 3+?
Samii wrote: Marine vehicles, for example, are a lot more vulnerable now, up to 100% more in a lot of cases versus anti-tank weapons.
That doesn't sound right. Damage doubling from armour save drop happens when 2+ goes to 3+ but what anti tank weapons left marines with 2+ save with AOC that now goes to 3+?
Lord Discordant or other 2+ model with Gorget of Eternal Hate against an AP-2 weapon?
Samii wrote: 5) Abaddon in BL is bonkers, being able to heal him, Warp Time and advance and charge makes him still worth the points.
Blessing: Warptime has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, select one friendly <LEGION> INFANTRY or <LEGION> CHAOS SPAWN unit within 6" of this PSYKER.
That unit can make a Normal Move (if that unit Advanced in your previous Movement phase, it still counts as having Advanced this turn).
Until the end of the turn, that unit is not eligible to declare a charge.
Is there a trick I'm not aware of that lets you get around that limitation?
Samii wrote: Maybe my maths is off but 5+ to 6+ is a difference of double the wounds taken? So + 100% more? Its the same break as 2+ to 3+.
Specifically I'm thinking of AP -3 weapons.
12 wounds saved at at 5+ is 4, 12 wounds saved at 6+ is 2. So double, or +100% more.
P.S. Yes to the Warp Time Abaddon, you do that first, then advance and charge next turn.
Best,
Samii.
Not even close.
If you take 6 wounds and save on a 2+, you take one point of damage. Drop to a 3+ and it doubles to two points.
Same deal, but 5+ means you take four damage. 6+ means you take five-an increase of 25%.
I was interested to see the differences with Arks of Omen and dataslate/munitorum.
My old Black Legion list, the one I posted a while back, was undefeated in Nephilim. Sometimes with big wins 90+ to about 40 against Tyranids, Votann, new AM, Quins etc.
So I've tried a few speculative tests with the info from WC and the dataslate/munitorum. In short the list is even better now.
I've replaced the Pod with a Dreadblade War Dog Brigand with MOTDM and the Daemonic Surge trait. Other than that list is basically the same, as Legionnaires are cheaper and I dropped Marks on Contemptor, Apostle and Havocs.
My thoughts RE the changes:
1) Secondaries look good from what I hear. When scoring isn't an issue, having better Secondaries gives an army room to breathe. Cultists will still win games based on their tertiary actions, screening and Banners.
2) Rubrics with Warp Time are as good as pre-nerf Flamers. The OW makes them a problem. I can see Plague Marines as a viable alternative, but Rubrics will shine more now that Marines lost AoC and will be the new Meta.
3) AoC isn't as big of a deal. With the 4++ Tzeentch power and cover you retain roughly the same survivability on the basic Marine units. Terminators never relied on AoC to be unkillable and they still present a bigger problem than the Loyalist equivalent, when they can be charged on Turn 1 and can shoot/clear chaff off objectives.
4) The War Dog, is the icing on the cake. I don't lose command points to take it, assuming we're the same as IK. In addition to the Terminators it is potentially a Transhit, Transhuman, 4++ shooting platform that can get back up on death, is Objective Secured and provides very efficient firepower to an army that lacks it.
5) Abaddon in BL is bonkers, being able to heal him, Warp Time and advance and charge makes him still worth the points.
There's ways around the loss of AoC and my shooting got better, it gained about 30% efficiency versus Marines, Sisters and AM. Nids, Tau, Quins and Votann all got heavily nerfed with points increases.
In fairness while Marines did drop in points, I can't see a marine list that gives more than 300-400 points from those changes and my army is now even more efficient at killing them, than they me.
Best,
Samii.
CK as dreadblade can't take the infernal table. Not even with the special dreadblade faction that give you access to that tabme as it's an exception
I phrased it wrong. 5+ to 6+ is 100% more saves, not 100% more wounds.
Also RE the Dreadblade and the Daemonic Surge trait: that only applies to the second bullet point (the 4+++ against mortals) I'm pretty sure?
Best,
Samii.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sometimes when I write the points get a bit jumbled in the overall message, so I thought I would try to write it down a bit clearer and get the numbers right this time .
My list has a lot of AP -1 and AP -2 bolter, or equivalent, fire.
AP -1 got 100% better at killing marines in cover and 33% better at killing marines in the open. Ditto for vehicles, which almost never get cover.
AP -2 got 33% better at killing marines in cover and 25% better at killing marines in the open. Ditto for vehicles, which almost never get cover.
AP -3 got 20% better at killing marine vehicles, but marine vehicles were fragile, even with AoC, are still expensive and die faster on account of the above.
I was interested to see the differences with Arks of Omen and dataslate/munitorum.
My old Black Legion list, the one I posted a while back, was undefeated in Nephilim. Sometimes with big wins 90+ to about 40 against Tyranids, Votann, new AM, Quins etc.
So I've tried a few speculative tests with the info from WC and the dataslate/munitorum. In short the list is even better now.
I've replaced the Pod with a Dreadblade War Dog Brigand with MOTDM and the Daemonic Surge trait. Other than that list is basically the same, as Legionnaires are cheaper and I dropped Marks on Contemptor, Apostle and Havocs.
My thoughts RE the changes:
1) Secondaries look good from what I hear. When scoring isn't an issue, having better Secondaries gives an army room to breathe. Cultists will still win games based on their tertiary actions, screening and Banners.
2) Rubrics with Warp Time are as good as pre-nerf Flamers. The OW makes them a problem. I can see Plague Marines as a viable alternative, but Rubrics will shine more now that Marines lost AoC and will be the new Meta.
3) AoC isn't as big of a deal. With the 4++ Tzeentch power and cover you retain roughly the same survivability on the basic Marine units. Terminators never relied on AoC to be unkillable and they still present a bigger problem than the Loyalist equivalent, when they can be charged on Turn 1 and can shoot/clear chaff off objectives.
4) The War Dog, is the icing on the cake. I don't lose command points to take it, assuming we're the same as IK. In addition to the Terminators it is potentially a Transhit, Transhuman, 4++ shooting platform that can get back up on death, is Objective Secured and provides very efficient firepower to an army that lacks it.
5) Abaddon in BL is bonkers, being able to heal him, Warp Time and advance and charge makes him still worth the points.
There's ways around the loss of AoC and my shooting got better, it gained about 30% efficiency versus Marines, Sisters and AM. Nids, Tau, Quins and Votann all got heavily nerfed with points increases.
In fairness while Marines did drop in points, I can't see a marine list that gives more than 300-400 points from those changes and my army is now even more efficient at killing them, than they me.
Best,
Samii.
What is MOTDM?
Am I right that master of possession can revive a wardog at the moment?
// Everytime you use an abbreviation that dakka doesn't know a shame bell of nurgle will ring.
war dogs will never be able to resurrect because they split in board and are treated as units of 1 model.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm thinking on the usual list of word bearers
- DP - MoP
- Apostol
- 10 termis
- 10 possessed
- MoE
- 20 warp talons
nd some CKs
But i'm not sure this will work anymore since loyalist (and everyone else) can just kill everything with bolter. Warp talons are no opponent for new cheap terminators...
I'm scared of coming back to Pre-AOC times. Where Admech and everyone else could just remove every marine from the board in a turn and a half
Definitely interested in hearing experiences with this new environment. Signed up to a Crusade league to try the game again for the first time since the 8th SM 2.0 debacle.
Hey all, I'm getting back into 40k with Chaos Astartes and Astra Militarum. I've played like 3 games of 9th at release but played plenty in 8th.
I'd like to take a more relaxed approach in my collection and mainly go by rule of cool for the theme of my armies and would like to play Word Bearers. I'd like to go 11 on the Daemon/Possessed theme and was wondering how they play and hold up in games nowadays. I think I won't play too many games before 10th hit in summer but I'll try to play a bit.
I have the Start Collecting + a Dark Apostle for now, my plan is to get Possessed, a Daemon Prince, more Marines and maybe some Cultists, haven't tried for a list yet. It seems Chaos Astartes are really focused on melee and Psykers now, with the basic Legionaries having 3 attacks base, and the Word Bearers' bonus helping hit in CC. How does the gameplay and a typical list looks nowadays ? Have we moved on from the "Marines useless, play 80 Cultists" meta yet ? I'd rather have quite a few Legionaries and only a bit of Cultists.
Points have been changed, no one yet knows how CSM will evolve. Only time will tell. If you want to run legionaries i suggest to max their weapons, because they are all free. That means powerfist and plasma pistol on the champ, a heavy chainaxe, normal marines with bolt pistol and chainsword, and one or two special/heavy weapons, depending on unit size. A psyker can be added to the unit for 20 points.
A unit with 5 marines including powerfist, plasma pistol, heavy chainaxe, a psyker, one special/heavy weapon, with obsec, for 110 points is not a bad choice, i think.
I think ‘rule of cool’ is the only way to collect right now, When you work out a competitive build, by the time you’ve gone to a shop, bought the unit, built it, painted it, and brought it to table, it’s got a significant likelihood of having wildly changed in costing and effectiveness
lindsay40k wrote: I think ‘rule of cool’ is the only way to collect right now, When you work out a competitive build, by the time you’ve gone to a shop, bought the unit, built it, painted it, and brought it to table, it’s got a significant likelihood of having wildly changed in costing and effectiveness
That's what made me sell my AdMech in disgust at the state of the game last year to be honest. Played and still play MESBG for the gameplay, but I miss 40k so I'm back with WB and Astra. Rule of cool means less stress when a dataslate or edition change comes up.
But it's still bonus when I can get a cool army that doesn't get tabled by casual lists though !
lindsay40k wrote: I think ‘rule of cool’ is the only way to collect right now, When you work out a competitive build, by the time you’ve gone to a shop, bought the unit, built it, painted it, and brought it to table, it’s got a significant likelihood of having wildly changed in costing and effectiveness
Aaranis wrote: Hey all, I'm getting back into 40k with Chaos Astartes and Astra Militarum. I've played like 3 games of 9th at release but played plenty in 8th.
I'd like to take a more relaxed approach in my collection and mainly go by rule of cool for the theme of my armies and would like to play Word Bearers. I'd like to go 11 on the Daemon/Possessed theme and was wondering how they play and hold up in games nowadays. I think I won't play too many games before 10th hit in summer but I'll try to play a bit.
I have the Start Collecting + a Dark Apostle for now, my plan is to get Possessed, a Daemon Prince, more Marines and maybe some Cultists, haven't tried for a list yet. It seems Chaos Astartes are really focused on melee and Psykers now, with the basic Legionaries having 3 attacks base, and the Word Bearers' bonus helping hit in CC. How does the gameplay and a typical list looks nowadays ? Have we moved on from the "Marines useless, play 80 Cultists" meta yet ? I'd rather have quite a few Legionaries and only a bit of Cultists.
You'll be in good company with the possessed, they not only look cool, but they're tough, fast, have lots of wounds, and terrify your opponents. They frequently get the black rune which makes them scarier, and they'll be on the frontlines too, so the anti-psyker buff doesn't hurt either. I'm becoming a fan of the DP too. With wings, its a great option to drop down behind your possessed on turn 2 to give them their re-roll hit buff (they're probably not making melee on turn 1 so he can stay safe from an alpha strike). He's also nice and big, so despite the change/nerf to psychic interrogation he'll more than likely be visible to an enemy character letting you squeeze off that secondary.
I wouldn't go any more than 1 unit of cultists. They're little more than obsec meat.
Aaranis wrote: Hey all, I'm getting back into 40k with Chaos Astartes and Astra Militarum. I've played like 3 games of 9th at release but played plenty in 8th.
I'd like to take a more relaxed approach in my collection and mainly go by rule of cool for the theme of my armies and would like to play Word Bearers. I'd like to go 11 on the Daemon/Possessed theme and was wondering how they play and hold up in games nowadays. I think I won't play too many games before 10th hit in summer but I'll try to play a bit.
I have the Start Collecting + a Dark Apostle for now, my plan is to get Possessed, a Daemon Prince, more Marines and maybe some Cultists, haven't tried for a list yet. It seems Chaos Astartes are really focused on melee and Psykers now, with the basic Legionaries having 3 attacks base, and the Word Bearers' bonus helping hit in CC. How does the gameplay and a typical list looks nowadays ? Have we moved on from the "Marines useless, play 80 Cultists" meta yet ? I'd rather have quite a few Legionaries and only a bit of Cultists.
You'll be in good company with the possessed, they not only look cool, but they're tough, fast, have lots of wounds, and terrify your opponents. They frequently get the black rune which makes them scarier, and they'll be on the frontlines too, so the anti-psyker buff doesn't hurt either. I'm becoming a fan of the DP too. With wings, its a great option to drop down behind your possessed on turn 2 to give them their re-roll hit buff (they're probably not making melee on turn 1 so he can stay safe from an alpha strike). He's also nice and big, so despite the change/nerf to psychic interrogation he'll more than likely be visible to an enemy character letting you squeeze off that secondary.
I wouldn't go any more than 1 unit of cultists. They're little more than obsec meat.
Possessed aren't Core, so they don't get rerolls from a Prince.
Are wings still mandatory on DP? Trying to find places in my list to reduce points to bring in more possessed and tinkering with saving the points by removing wings.
Loose 4" movement but the biggest draw is Fly. ignoring terrain and hopping over screens to charge open characters is always nice so wondering if it's worth losing to save the points or if I should trim it elsewhere..
Possessed aren't Core, so they don't get rerolls from a Prince.
Oh good call! Silly me. I use him in a similar way for CORE dudes and forgot.
I stand by my opinion on the DP though OP, though he's a little squishy for this points imho, good protection will not go astray.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NurglesR0T wrote: Are wings still mandatory on DP? Trying to find places in my list to reduce points to bring in more possessed and tinkering with saving the points by removing wings.
Loose 4" movement but the biggest draw is Fly. ignoring terrain and hopping over screens to charge open characters is always nice so wondering if it's worth losing to save the points or if I should trim it elsewhere..
Wings are not mandatory, but they may as well be, so many solid reasons to run them.
I've been using a list more tailored to AoO. It's been performing very well so I thought I'd share again.
Here is the list:
Black Legion Arks of Omen Detachment
Chaos Lord - Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades
Mark of Khorne
Warlord Trait: Eternal Vendetta
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour - Force Sword, Combi-melta, Chaos Familiar
Mark of Tzeentch
Relic: Veilbreaker Plate
Spells: Smite, Prescience, Diabolic Strength, Skeins of Fate
Master of Possession - Bolt Pistol, Staff of Possession, Frag and Krak Grenades
Spells: Smite, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
Dark Apostle - Bolt Pistol, Accursed Crozius, Frag and Krak Grenades
Prayers: Dark Zealotry, Illusory Supplication
2 x Dark Disciples
Chaos Contemptor - x2 Twin-volkite Culverins, Hellforged Cyclone Missile Launcher
Mark of Nurgle
Chaos Decimator - x2 Soulburner Petards
Chaos Decimator - x2 Soulburner Petards
Helbrute - Multi-melta, Helbrute Fist, Heavy Flamer
Helbrute - Multi-melta, Helbrute Fist, Heavy Flamer
Chosen
x 8 Chosen
x 1 Power Fist
x 7 Accursed Weapons
x 8 Boltguns
x 8 Bolt Pistols
Frag and Krak Grenades
Champion - Power Fist, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol
Mark of Tzeentch
Legionnaires
x 4 Legionnaires
x 4 Bolt Pistols
x 1 Lascannon
x 2 Boltguns
x 1 Balefire Tome
Frag and Krak Grenades
Aspiring Champion - Plasma Pistol, Boltgun
Mark of Tzeentch
Spells: Smite, Diabolic Strength, Skeins of Fate
Cultists Mob
x 9 Cultists
x 6 Cultist Firearms
x 1 Cultist Grenade Launcher
x 1 Flamer
x 1 Heavy Stubber
Frag and Krak Grenades
Cultist Champion - Cultist Firearm
Cultists Mob
x 9 Cultists
x 6 Cultist Firearms
x 1 Cultist Grenade Launcher
x 1 Flamer
x 1 Heavy Stubber
Frag and Krak Grenades
Cultist Champion - Cultist Firearm
Havocs
x 4 Havocs
x 4 Lascannons
Havoc Champion - Boltgun
Mark of Slaanesh
War Dog Brigand (Dreadblade) - Avenger Chaincannon, Daemonbreath Spear, Diabolus Heavy Stubber
Fell Bond: Biomechanical Fusion
Mirror of Fates
So how it plays, with key focus on differences from Nephilim.
1) I found Terminators (mainly IW) are still good, but I changed them out for Chosen for a few reasons. With the lethality of enemy shooting and combat having increased significantly, mortal wound saturation and the loss of AoC, its just better to have more bodies than fewer tougher ones. MoT (4++) makes it so that you hit a lot of the old break points that AoC had, but on cheaper bodies. With the Black Rune and Illusory Supplication, they are tough, you have more of them, they are cheaper so if they are wiped out you still have assets in play. The shooting and melee is weaker, but I have a few tricks that can make up for that.
I Veilbreaker Plate them up on Turn 1, usually shoot and charge screens, kill them and consolidate into something behind and/or contest midfield objectives. I cast Diabolic Strength on the champ and Prescience on the unit and can make them Word Bearers for a turn, if I need melee punch. I can play the Veil Sorcerer more aggressively, the following Turn. He can use that combination of powers/strats on himself: if the Chosen are killed first, he can take their place.
The point of the combination is more of a distraction than a sledgehammer, by not having a points sink there it gives me more assets. The unit being bigger also makes it easier to tag things and be a general midfield nuisance.
2) As with the Nephilim list, I build around a firebase consisting of Havocs, Contemptor, Legionnaires and now with the addition of a Brigand Dreadblade with Mirror of Fates. I hide this behind BLOS and if needed screen it out with Cultists. Turn 1 I pop out and I will usually play the Slaanesh strat on the Havocs and possibly turn the Contemptor into Emperor's Children; I can use the Tzeentch strat on the Brigand to autowound, or reroll 1's to hit depending on the situation, terrain setups etc. The Lord is giving reroll wounds to the Contemptor.
I shoot the firebase, the Chosen Veil up kill screens, tag stuff and contest. Now my opponent has to respond. The Chosen are not efficient to shoot, even of they are killed its not game over by any means. The firebase is usually far away and I can protect the Contemptor with Transhuman and the Brigand with Rotate Ion Shields. The Brigand will sometimes be Transhuman also. I switched out the original BOTDM Brigand with the Mirror one, because I find the extra command point potential to be more useful in this build.
3) The next turn, I bring in the Helbrutes from reserve and the Decimators to clean up. I have to credit Dean from BFTBG for this tactic: the Helbrutes and the Decimators are mean when they can just walk in from reserve and do damage. I still have shooting from the firebase left usually and the combination can be overwhelming.
4) I dropped Abaddon. Again, I think its just better to have more assets in play than smaller tougher, slower ones. The Chaos Lord has MoK to give me access to the deny strat and can sit in the firebase. I think the problem with Abaddon is that he make CSM play lazily with their support characters: most CSM characters can be turned into melee monsters with Diabolic Strength and/or the Omen of Potency. Abaddon being there just makes them sit around in the backfield doing nothing.
I played a few test games, so it might be best to explain the power of the list with reference to one.
VS AM:
The list: an optimized seven LRAM list with Key Kasrkin, Banner, Leontus etc.
Turn 1 I screen out the firebase with Cultists so the Key Kasrkin couldn't drop in my backfield, Sentinels had no way through and I was mostly hidden, I lost a Cultist unit and a few more in the second unit that was partially hidden.
I then jumped out, firebase killed two LR's and bracketed a third. The Chosen Veiled up, killed infantry on an objective and then tag another LR with their consolidate. I had enough shooting left over from the Brigand and Chosen to thin some infantry squads.
Turn 2 4 LR's split fire into the Chosen and firebase, buffed Kasrkin focus on Chosen. None of the shooting sticks: Chosen dropped to half but that's it. I resurrect one and multi-charge the LR's. Helbrutes and Decimators show up and another three LR's are killed from melee/shooting and I have shooting leftover to kill some more infantry and Kasrkin. Only one tank is untagged/alive.
Turn 3, its basically GG. I shoot the Kasrkin with the Contemptor and Chosen, Helbrutes and Decimators finish off the tanks and remaining infantry. Only characters left.
The imbalance felt overwhelming, but dice were not particularly skewed.
If the LR's had backlined it would have killed the objective play, that's how the Chosen were able to get to one even behind the screen.
Same principles apply here to a lot of enemies: vs DA for example screen out RW Knights with Cultists and then hammer them with shooting and counter charges from Chosen. When the DW drop in hold the line and then counterpunch with Helbrutes, Decimators and the remaining Characters.
Same idea vs Quins, Drukhari and GK. In these situations its sometimes better to hold the Chosen back.
Vs Votann or shooting Marines (IH), switch target priority to the infantry. If anything they should be easier because they don't have screens to block Chosen, Helbrutes and Decimators and are slow.
I've gone down the path of Abaddon + MoP + T. Sorc for the healing and warptime and I've really enjoyed it. It does feel expensive at 565 mainly because everything in CSM currently feels expensive. But, I do try to play the MoP and T. Sorc aggressively so they are more than just buff bots.
Agree that Diabolic Strength is a great buff to turn any unit champion (or support character) with a D2 weapon into a threat.
I like bringing shooting too and have been using multiple Havoc squads mainly due to what units I own and they tend to be my Veilbreaker target for some juicy exploding 6 action turn 1.
I really wish Wanton of DevDoc could last beyond turn 1, then heavy weapons coming in turn 2 or 3 would be very viable as Black Legion.
But I guess that is why you take rapid fire and assault weapons.
Yep, the Decimators in particular benefit from the (Assault Weapons) Doctrines more and it fits them coming in from reserve.
The Helbrutes and Decimators in Black Legion are excellent in reserves because they can be more easily positioned to get +1 to hit and (again credit to Dean here) the Fire Frenzy strat lets you shoot a Helbrute out of sequence, which can really catch the opponent unawares.
Before the free reserves, Helbrutes just couldn't get position, but now the best configuration (Multi-melta, Fist with Heavy Flamer) are a threat.
Hey all, just some of my thoughts and experiences in the post AoC world,
I have come back to IW from WB now with the lack of AoC. IW have the mini one which affect -1/-2 and I have found that it is pretty good at providing defense against what really hurts the most, mass -1/-2 shots. I mean with the possessed/warp talons it is basically the same once the 5++ is factored in. I also like all the defensive buffs they can get like -1 damage on the possessed. Also they have a warlord trait that allows you to put a unit (not obliterators for some reason) back in Wanton Destruction which is good in combination with havocs or land raider.
Also if you have not used them, the traitor guard are well worth the additional 10 points over cultists. Being able to include a melta, plasma, and flamer in the unit plus the slightly better save, has made a big difference for me in several games (the melta gun helped finish a vehicle in one game, something cultists could never do). The enforcer/ogryn are fun, but overpriced and not really necessary. But I would take the traitor guard over cultists any day if you can get them.
You know the other thing about traitor guardsmen I just realized is that they would be exempt from the MoP and his sacrificial dagger rule (no cultists). ? *****WRONG******
Kangarupe wrote: You know the other thing about traitor guardsmen I just realized is that they would be exempt from the MoP and his sacrificial dagger rule (no cultists). ?
Traitor guardsmen have the CULTISTS keyword, no sacrifial dagger on them.
Kangarupe wrote: You know the other thing about traitor guardsmen I just realized is that they would be exempt from the MoP and his sacrificial dagger rule (no cultists). ?
Traitor guardsmen have the CULTISTS keyword, no sacrifial dagger on them.
Having the Cultist keyword is actually good though. It lets you use the strat that brings back d3+3 (I think maybe +1 no book in front of me), which you would actually use on these guys, especially if you lost the plasma due to overcharge.
Wow I never noticed that there even was a separate “cultist mob” key word compared to “cultist”. And I am usually good about that. Just too many key words for everything. Oh well I guess that is to stop from bringing back the Cultist HQ unit which I don’t use. Sorry all.
I still think they are better than normal cultists and worth the points increase but now the enforcer is less useful as keeping them alive against moral is less useful.
I'm still not sold on the Traitor Guard, but then I don't like Cultists and I have also been running low troops/obsec in quite a few lists recently across various factions. A mixture of anything on an objective is often dead and other factions often have better obsec rules (obsec and count as double, count as ten, etc) that make your own obsolete.
For me though Cultists + 2/3 of a Mark on a squad or Cultists + 1 or 2 melee weapons on champion(s) tend to be what I would take over Traitor Guard. But, it is a tiny difference.
Everyone still using Termies despite the cost increase? As Black Legion, I find them tough to give up, even at the increased cost.... Abaddon doling out his re-rolls to their 4 shot combi-bolters + putting them in Wanton Massacre for exploding 6's coupled with a strat like Daemon shells is just delightful. Chosen are nice and considerably cheaper but they just don't seem to be as good. Curious on what others are doing.
Kangarupe wrote: Everyone still using Termies despite the cost increase? As Black Legion, I find them tough to give up, even at the increased cost.... Abaddon doling out his re-rolls to their 4 shot combi-bolters + putting them in Wanton Massacre for exploding 6's coupled with a strat like Daemon shells is just delightful. Chosen are nice and considerably cheaper but they just don't seem to be as good. Curious on what others are doing.
Yep, still often using my termies. It's really got nothing to do with pts/rules though. They're some of my favorite models in my Chaos force, so they'd have to have some insane pts increase to see me sideline them.
I'm running Chosen as well. They're dressed up as Dark Angel Fallen.
I know crusade isn't talked about much here but I had a question I needed answers to. What would be the best boons to give to a daemon prince? I will be using the requisition to turn my lord into one and while he is losing a lot, I think he is gaining a lot too. I have 8 upgrades to purchase and have no clue what to get. If anyone can help that would be fantastic.
The legion is Black Legion and mark is khorne if that helps. Not sure what weapon I will give him yet.
Serpentine Fangs +1 to wound when charging or heroic intervening looks solid (can be negated by transhuman stratagem if You play a lot vs loyalist scum).
Dark Blessing -1 to hit defensive bonus woukd be very helpful against heavy close combat oponents (Deamon Prince isn't so tough)
Xyxel wrote: Its possible to get the Chaos Boon and then ascent to Daemonhood (2RP) keepeing Chaos Boons, traits, relics (if eligible for type of unit)
I see now that you are correct. I misread that part. Thanks.
Played another test game with the AoO list I posted before.
This time versus a highly optimized DA list, with two DW blocks, Command Squad, three RW Speeders, Infiltrators etc.
Again, a crushing victory.
I used Cultists to screen out the firebase (Havocs, Legionaries, Contemptor, Characters and Mirror War Dog), hidden behind BLOS.
Chosen also hidden away.
Turn 1 RW Speeders dart forward kill Cultists, but can't get angles on anything else. Combined weight of fire from the firebase and Chosen kill the Speeders; I spend a command point to make the Havocs Lascannons explode (Slaanesh strat).
Chosen use MoP trick to get a Veil charge on an Infiltrator unit. I have to reroll the charge and use another command point to turn the Chosen into Word Bearers. All buffs (Diabolic Strength etc.) on the Chosen. Infiltrators are killed.
Turn 2 DW show up: charge the OS War Dog, which I had moved up onto the home objective and second unit charge Chosen and Veil Sorcerer. The War Dog is destroyed and the DW consolidate onto the objective. Against the Chosen and Sorcerer only two Chosen are killed and attacks versus the Sorcerer miss the mark (he has a 3+ from the Plate). In return, half the DW are killed by the Chosen and Sorcerer.
In my turn, I fall back with the Chosen: I decide not to use the fall back and shoot/charge strat there, but could have. Decimators show up and finish off the the remaining DW on the Chosen/Sorcerer side of the board. In my DZ I bring on the Helbrutes, preparing for an easy charge on the DW there. I spend two command points to turn the Apostle, who is inside the firebase, into a melee missile and cast Diabolic Strength on him also. Everything shoots the DW in my DZ. Between shooting, psychic and melee they are dropped to four models and their interrupt kills the Apostle. However, the Helbrutes then finish the DW off.
Again, as with the last game its basically GG at this point.
The list has been performing very well (100% win rate so far) so I'm thinking about tournaments now.
100% a Khorne DP is a pure melee weapon and being able to fly through a wall in the movement phase as well as moving 50% faster in general is very important.
The only DP I sometimes don't put wings on is a Death Guard DP as they only get 2" extra movement (25%) not the 4" (50%). But they still lose a decent amount of speed having to run around walls.
I think Samii's interpretation of the Murderous Perfection strat is correct...however how are you rotating Ion Shields on your War Dog? I thought taking a super heavy aux only gave you access to Marks and not relics/WLT/or Strats from CK?
Lord Blackscale wrote:Are wings worth taking on a Daemon Prince of Khorne?
100%, yes. Wings are always worth it on any DP, but especially Khorne. they need to be in combat ASAP.
nathan2004 wrote:I think Samii's interpretation of the Murderous Perfection strat is correct...however how are you rotating Ion Shields on your War Dog? I thought taking a super heavy aux only gave you access to Marks and not relics/WLT/or Strats from CK?
Murderous Perfection is a single dice roll only. It's not terrible with lascannons, but probably overkill in most scenarios. Usually best saved for the damage roll unless you roll really badly on the hits.
Samii wrote: Yep, the Decimators in particular benefit from the (Assault Weapons) Doctrines more and it fits them coming in from reserve.
The Helbrutes and Decimators in Black Legion are excellent in reserves because they can be more easily positioned to get +1 to hit and (again credit to Dean here) the Fire Frenzy strat lets you shoot a Helbrute out of sequence, which can really catch the opponent unawares.
Before the free reserves, Helbrutes just couldn't get position, but now the best configuration (Multi-melta, Fist with Heavy Flamer) are a threat.
Best,
Samii.
The great trick, Samii hints towards, is:
You Helbrute gets shot at, then you can shot back and shot the one that shot you, or the closest visible unit!
So, most people go from their backline big guns towards the smaller guns. And that is your chance, they shot you from their backline and that first shooting unit doesn't finish your Helbrute, you use the stratagem and shoot not back but a worthy closest visible unit.
For the sake of an example an enemy multimelta/fist Helbrute that hasn't shot. You get a normal free shooting with the stratagem and if you kill it, then you dodged the multimelta shoots of it and avoided a very likely Helbrute charging into you. Suddenly, instead of a safe kill and the enemy Helbrute in the position of your helbrute after the fight Phase, your Helbrute still stands and the enemy helbrute not and your enemy has to rethink his plans and reallocate assets.
RE the Superheavy Auxiliary not unlocking CK strats that's a good point.
I had missed that. I never really used the CK strats though: I would tend to use strats on the CSM units.
The buffs from Daemon Surge, Objective Secured and benefits from Favors are still enough for me to include the War Dog though.
With the Slaanesh strat it makes the Havocs a bit more dependable. On Turn 1 any time you roll a 2 with that unit, which without full rerolls is common, you are nearly doubling the firepower output. If you spike then its a win, either way.
EDIT: RE CK Superheavy Auxiliary could someone weigh in on that?
Its not clear to me that it doesn't unlock strats, but it isn't a big deal either way.
"If your army is Battle-forged, <DREAD HOUSEHOLD> units (excluding DREADBLADE units) in CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachments gain access to the following dread household rules, provided that Detachment contains at least 3 models (excluding DREADBLADE models). Such a Detachment is referred to as a <DREAD HOUSEHOLD> Detachment." So since it's only 1 model, it doesn't get access to Relics/WLTs/or Strats.
Are DREAD HOUSEHOLD what gives access to the strats though?
I thought it was any Chaos Knights Detachment and then there is a special exemption for Superheavy Auxiliary Detachments, in terms of counting as a Chaos Knights Detachment.
Could be completely misreading this though and either way it doesn't affect my list.
EDIT: Nevermind I see it now: you're right.
EDIT EDIT: On second glance, I'm seeing that DREAD HOUSEHOLD can be replaced with DREADBLADE in the strats, so again I don't see DREAD HOUSEHOLD being the thing that grants access to strats, just the Chaos Knights Detachment?
Master of Possession (MoP) is it worth having him run with a group of Possesed? MOP 6", Pos9" Cursed earth 6" gives 4++ over the 5++ and Master of Union MoU 6" +1 Strength and -1 extra AP.
However, sacrifice can't be used on Possessed and the other Malefic Powers have a range of 18".
I think MoP with 3 Obliterators holding a mid range objective is better.
Cursed Earth on Obliterators and either Mutated Invigoration to add +1 Toughness (6) for more defense or Warp Marked on an enemy unit to get +1 to wound rolls is better. Add another figure within range to cast Prescience and give the Obliterators a 2+ to hit.
Any opinions on running MoP appreciated, of course the Slaanesh Mark combo with terminators is known
I feel the strategic error you seem to make over and over again in your posts is you have a singular path and plan for each unit in your army and it seems your army as a whole.
I ran a MoP and a Terminator Sorcerer in my most recent games. The MoP had Mutated Invigoration and Pact of Flesh and the Sorcerer had Diabolic Strength and Warptime.
At no point in my list building and strategic planning were those spells "allocated" to a specific unit for the battle. Instead I had multiple plans for each spell.
So for Pact of Flesh, it could go on the 10 Possessed with the Black Rune, or it could go on 5 Chosen out of reserves to get a shorter charge, or it could go on Abaddon to make him functionally unkillable in some scenarios. But, it also sometimes went on a Havoc squad to get a single Lascannon or Chaincannon back. Bringing back a 30 point Havoc model isn't as cool as bringing back a 90 point Obliterator, but even if you just bring back 5 Havocs in a game and nothing else, you've gained 150 points of value from your MoP who costs less than 150 points and who has cast a second spell each turn as well.
Now, the interesting thing about the units listed (Possessed, Chosen, Abaddon, Havocs) is that all of them can also get some use out of Mutated Invigoration, Diabolic Strength and Warptime.
So on a specific turn I might cast Mutated Invigoration to make Khorne Chosen S7 instead of S6 and then hide the tanky Possessed brick out of LOS so they don't need the +1T. Or I might drop Diabloic Strength on a Havoc Champion (with a 5 point weapon) so he can clear out an infiltrating unit in combat.
So, with hopefully a new found understanding that you don't just bring a MoP with Cursed Earth and Master of the Union for a singular purpose and plan, the answer to your question is...
It can be good to bring Cursed Earth if you are taking a brick of 10 Possessed with the Black Rune and are finding you need to stand out in the open and survive for a turn. Going from a 5++ to a 4++ against an AP2 D3 weapon is a good jump in survivability.
But you have identified the weakness, in that once your Possessed run off they will be out of range.
However, if you for example Cursed Earth near your Possessed turn 1~2 and then Cursed Earth near something else turn 3~5 or even cast smite instead, you may still get value from it in the game. Think about it this way, Pact of Flesh brings back 1 Possessed per turn. If you make 6 saves against a D3 AP2 attack for just one turn, the 4++ will 'bring back' 1 Possessed as well. If you make 12 saves, it brings back 2. Combining with Pact of Flesh, the difference could be between taking 12 saves, losing 8 and Fleshing back 1 to give a squad of 3 and taking 12 saves, losing 6 and Fleshing back 1 to give a squad of 5. A squad of 3 doesn't feel like it will do much, while a squad of 5 feels like it could go off and do something useful on the next turn. Although this example is reminding me of why cowering behind walls is the best plan in most situations.
So make sure you have secondary units that can benefit from the Cursed Earth later in the game. Obliterators coming in turn 2/3 in to the space vacated by the Possessed are an option and have late game synergy with a MoP with Pact of Flesh. Venomcrawlers that aren't running forward too early are also an option and also have early and late game synergy with the MoP in other ways.
Similarly have secondary units that can benefit from Master of the Union. So make sure you have some 5 man Possessed/Warp Talons who hide early in the game, move near the MoP in the mid game, then get the buff and move out in the late game.
Finally, I do have to ask this about the plethora of posts you keep making with so many list designs. Are you actually playtesting any of these lists? Playing 40k is an important part of the game in my opinion.
"If your army is Battle-forged, <DREAD HOUSEHOLD> units (excluding DREADBLADE units) in CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachments gain access to the following dread household rules, provided that Detachment contains at least 3 models (excluding DREADBLADE models). Such a Detachment is referred to as a <DREAD HOUSEHOLD> Detachment." So since it's only 1 model, it doesn't get access to Relics/WLTs/or Strats.
Sorry for being pedantic here: these kind of rules queries always tickle my brain, to the extent that I can't think about anything else .
But I'm pretty sure that just having a single Superheavy Auxiliary with a DREADBLADE would unlock the generic CK strats. You wouldn't get the House-specific ones though and retain AGENT OF CHAOS.
Unless he's the Warlord, you wouldn't get Relics or Traits, as normal.
I feel the strategic error you seem to make over and over again in your posts is you have a singular path and plan for each unit in your army and it seems your army as a whole.
I ran a MoP and a Terminator Sorcerer in my most recent games. The MoP had Mutated Invigoration and Pact of Flesh and the Sorcerer had Diabolic Strength and Warptime.
At no point in my list building and strategic planning were those spells "allocated" to a specific unit for the battle. Instead I had multiple plans for each spell.
So for Pact of Flesh, it could go on the 10 Possessed with the Black Rune, or it could go on 5 Chosen out of reserves to get a shorter charge, or it could go on Abaddon to make him functionally unkillable in some scenarios. But, it also sometimes went on a Havoc squad to get a single Lascannon or Chaincannon back. Bringing back a 30 point Havoc model isn't as cool as bringing back a 90 point Obliterator, but even if you just bring back 5 Havocs in a game and nothing else, you've gained 150 points of value from your MoP who costs less than 150 points and who has cast a second spell each turn as well.
Now, the interesting thing about the units listed (Possessed, Chosen, Abaddon, Havocs) is that all of them can also get some use out of Mutated Invigoration, Diabolic Strength and Warptime.
So on a specific turn I might cast Mutated Invigoration to make Khorne Chosen S7 instead of S6 and then hide the tanky Possessed brick out of LOS so they don't need the +1T. Or I might drop Diabloic Strength on a Havoc Champion (with a 5 point weapon) so he can clear out an infiltrating unit in combat.
So, with hopefully a new found understanding that you don't just bring a MoP with Cursed Earth and Master of the Union for a singular purpose and plan, the answer to your question is...
It can be good to bring Cursed Earth if you are taking a brick of 10 Possessed with the Black Rune and are finding you need to stand out in the open and survive for a turn. Going from a 5++ to a 4++ against an AP2 D3 weapon is a good jump in survivability.
But you have identified the weakness, in that once your Possessed run off they will be out of range.
However, if you for example Cursed Earth near your Possessed turn 1~2 and then Cursed Earth near something else turn 3~5 or even cast smite instead, you may still get value from it in the game. Think about it this way, Pact of Flesh brings back 1 Possessed per turn. If you make 6 saves against a D3 AP2 attack for just one turn, the 4++ will 'bring back' 1 Possessed as well. If you make 12 saves, it brings back 2. Combining with Pact of Flesh, the difference could be between taking 12 saves, losing 8 and Fleshing back 1 to give a squad of 3 and taking 12 saves, losing 6 and Fleshing back 1 to give a squad of 5. A squad of 3 doesn't feel like it will do much, while a squad of 5 feels like it could go off and do something useful on the next turn. Although this example is reminding me of why cowering behind walls is the best plan in most situations.
So make sure you have secondary units that can benefit from the Cursed Earth later in the game. Obliterators coming in turn 2/3 in to the space vacated by the Possessed are an option and have late game synergy with a MoP with Pact of Flesh. Venomcrawlers that aren't running forward too early are also an option and also have early and late game synergy with the MoP in other ways.
Similarly have secondary units that can benefit from Master of the Union. So make sure you have some 5 man Possessed/Warp Talons who hide early in the game, move near the MoP in the mid game, then get the buff and move out in the late game.
Finally, I do have to ask this about the plethora of posts you keep making with so many list designs. Are you actually playtesting any of these lists? Playing 40k is an important part of the game in my opinion.
Thanks for some information. 1. I don’t see anyone listing WB lists so I’m putting suggestion out there that can inspire creativity for lists over the standard 10 terminators MoS black rune damnation Dark Apostle MoS Master Possession MoS hold mid. The MoP casting cursed earth on Oblits to hold mid would give it to mop oblits and venom. Also gives charged protection. If you pick mutated it can be cast on anyone unit in range. If you cast warp marked on an enemy, it gives oblits and possessed and venom a buff so it is multi functional. These lists don’t mean to be strict but to give thoughts for people to keep or change and make better
Thanks for some information. 1. I don’t see anyone listing WB lists so I’m putting suggestion out there that can inspire creativity for lists over the standard 10 terminators MoS black rune damnation Dark Apostle MoS Master Possession MoS hold mid. The MoP casting cursed earth on Oblits to hold mid would give it to mop oblits and venom. Also gives charged protection. If you pick mutated it can be cast on anyone unit in range. If you cast warp marked on an enemy, it gives oblits and possessed and venom a buff so it is multi functional. These lists don’t mean to be strict but to give thoughts for people to keep or change and make better
Which is fine, up to a point. The problem is, the options you list as being standard and uncreative are that way for a reason. They work, and have been shown to work. Many of your suggestions aren't really all that thought-provoking or inspiring because they come across as untested theorycrafting, which is very easy to dismiss. It would be much more effective if you could give us some examples of real-world applications of these ideas through your own experiences in-game. That way there's something concrete to discuss. It also means you can determine for yourself whether these different approaches are actually any good before brining them up. Without the backing of any testing I tend to dismiss a lot of these ideas because they just don't seem workable given my experiences playing with and against CSM.
For example, you mention 3 Oblits plus a MoP working together to hold the midfield. The problem here is that Terminators, Possessed or Chosen with the Black Rune are all more effective at that job than Oblits (which you can see from the army lists that tend to do well for CSM). So you need to give solid reasons why this approach is better than the standard one. Additionally, no competitive CSM lists have included units of 3 Oblits in recent memory. Some have units of 1 or 2, but that's usually for DS deployment, especially if it can get you BEL points with the recent improvement to that secondary in AoO. That means you need to work extra hard to justify using that sort of unit in your army. For context, 3 Oblits cost the same as 10 Chosen with a Mark. Is your suggestion for the Oblits better than taking the 10 Chosen? If so, why? If not, why not?
I don't want to discourage you from continuing to explore new strategies and builds, but I think you might get improved interactions if you had more concrete examples to work with, rather than an endless stream of "will this very specific combination of things work"?
Cautionary tale: put your terminators more than 36 inches away from Blood Angel death company -or- put some pin cushions in front of your terminator brick. aka cultists as a roadblock.
Lost turn 1 roll, whirlwind disabled overwatch, 5 man DC charged me turn 1 using the pre-game move strat and wiped out the entire unbuffed slaanesh unit with hammers (they were buffed to the hilt too)... I was very le sad, lesson learned.
The basic maths is:
5 x (2 + 1 + 1) + 1 = 21 attacks
3s to hit re-rolling all = 18.67 hits
2s to wound = 15.56 wounds
5s to save = 10.37 dead termies
The buffs are:
Dante hit re-rolls
Death Company Apothecary puts them into assault doctrine for +1A and +1AP
Death Company Ancient +1 to hit
Chapter tactic already gives +1 to wound
The buffs on the Slaanesh termies are:
-1 to wound thanks to Black Rune
Nothing else because they went first
Kangrupa that is a lesson learned in blood and one I have also experienced. Teaches you to always ask questions like "can you do a pre-game move" and "how many sources of D3+ do you have"?
Eight folds’s explanation is very damn close. He runs 4x hammer and 1x sword, and the buffs came from slightly different places but yeah, same deadly effect. (Captain giving the hit re-rolls, unleash rage from psyker for exploding 6s)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EviscerationPlague wrote: Nurgle would've actually been a direct counter. It'd make the TH wound on a 3+ instead.
Sure, you’re not wrong. But by choosing the MoN you’re sacrificing your ability to cast Delightful Agonies for the 5+ feel no pain. I don’t think strategically that would be the best choice.
As I said, dumping 50 points of cultists down as a meat wall would be better. Not to mention, if they don’t get killed round 1, maybe they can squeeze of an action or snag an objective …something ??♂️
Played a test 'mirror match' against a IH successor-optimized list. I say 'mirror' because so many of the elements line up:
SS Terminators = Chosen
WL Contemptor = Contemptor
Devastators = Havocs
Leviathan = Brigand
Infiltrators/Incursors = Cultists
Pod Devastators = Decimators
Pod Devastators = Helbrutes
Chief Librarian, Apothecary, Ancient, CM = Lord, DA, Sorcerer, MoP
Traits were Stalwart and Stealthy.
What I learned:
1) My list feels like it had a lot more utility than the IH one. I was able to screen the Pods with Cultists and Incursors/Infiltrators had to deploy defensively to avoid the Chosen bomb.
2) My firepower felt stronger. With the BL trait and Prescience its possible to use BLOS to get +1 to hit on many units. That's better than the IH equivalent reroll 1's to hit. The -1 AP from Dev is a bit harder to scale: with AT weapons, -1 AP is not a huge difference. Exploding 6's, especially with the Slaanesh strat on the Havocs felt better and Eternal Vendetta enabled the Contemptor to kill the Leviathan, with Havoc support. I had enough shooting to mop up the infantry also.
This was just turn 1 though, IH would probably prolong the firepower advantage from just staying in Dev all game. But then they miss out, because the melee stuff gets blunted, by never getting to Assault and if they get overwhelmed by shooting on turn 1 it can be hard to roll back.
3) SM Terminators are unreliable, unless you invest in a Chaplain to help make the charge from DS. In this case they just got stranded in the middle of nowhere and like the DW, got dismantled.
4) When the Pods did come in they bounced off the Harbinger and Contemptor: effectively just being meat for the grinder. In comparison, the Decimators and Helbrutes showed up and steam rolled the IH firebase.
Eradicators might have been better than Pods here, though.
5) The lists felt about equally resilient, but I think the Chosen and MoN Contemptor might just edge out their IH equivalents: with the Chosen being much less vulnerable than SS Terminators to weight of fire and the Contemptor having an edge against massed S8 (melta, plasma); with the IH Leviathan being a bit better vs Lascannons.
6) I've added a MoN and the Liber Hereticus to the MoP. With this I can get a -2 to hit on the Contemptor, with transhit and transhuman, T8 from MoP and -1 to wound from MoN, it just is a nightmare to get rid off.
The CSM characters (MoP especially) seem to have greater utility: MoP combines the roll of a buffing Librarian, Chaplain (for the better charge) and Apothecary, but has greater reach than the SM combos. Likewise Veil Sorcerer and DA are buffers that are also capable of delivering a melee threat, through Diabolic Strength.
Mirror Harbinger is just icing on the cake: great firepower, gives me command point regen; one of the best sources of it in the game in fact and assuming CK strats work with AoO allies, guaranteed Behind Enemy Lines mid-late game.
6) I've added a MoN and the Liber Hereticus to the MoP. With this I can get a -2 to hit on the Contemptor, with transhit and transhuman, T8 from MoP and -1 to wound from MoN, it just is a nightmare to get rid off.
The CSM characters (MoP especially) seem to have greater utility: MoP combines the roll of a buffing Librarian, Chaplain (for the better charge) and Apothecary, but has greater reach than the SM combos. Likewise Veil Sorcerer and DA are buffers that are also capable of delivering a melee threat, through Diabolic Strength.
Mirror Harbinger is just icing on the cake: great firepower, gives me command point regen; one of the best sources of it in the game in fact and assuming CK strats work with AoO allies, guaranteed Behind Enemy Lines mid-late game.
Best,
Samii.
You cap at -1 to hit, so unless they have a source of +1 to hit; -2 hit is wasted on the contemptor.
6) I've added a MoN and the Liber Hereticus to the MoP. With this I can get a -2 to hit on the Contemptor, with transhit and transhuman, T8 from MoP and -1 to wound from MoN, it just is a nightmare to get rid off.
The CSM characters (MoP especially) seem to have greater utility: MoP combines the roll of a buffing Librarian, Chaplain (for the better charge) and Apothecary, but has greater reach than the SM combos. Likewise Veil Sorcerer and DA are buffers that are also capable of delivering a melee threat, through Diabolic Strength.
Mirror Harbinger is just icing on the cake: great firepower, gives me command point regen; one of the best sources of it in the game in fact and assuming CK strats work with AoO allies, guaranteed Behind Enemy Lines mid-late game.
Best,
Samii.
You cap at -1 to hit, so unless they have a source of +1 to hit; -2 hit is wasted on the contemptor.
There are a few things that the -2 hard counters though: specifically Leman Russ turret weapons, IW Dreadnoughts with a MoF, any Tau, DA etc.
Against the rest it saves me spending command points on SMOKESCREEN.
One thing I've been toying with but haven't yet tested is the idea of stuffing a second MoP and three obliterators into a dreadclaw, in order to dump them onto a secondary objective but within range of targets of choice. Second MoP gives a reason for cursed earth, and while you could +1T with mutated invigoration, it might be more interesting to use warp-marked (as you would be in range) to give the oblits +1 to wound on a specific priority target.
with the standard relic toting MoP coming into range turn 2 in time to heal/buff them if necessary.
I’d have to disagree with possessed mid to a degree. They have no range output, which means far easier to just ignore like what can be done to the terminators or chosen. However Terminators can have more offensive range weapons than chosen Or possessed who have none.
As for chosen mid they have no invulnerable and their range are only bolt pistols. Now perhaps if you took mark of Tzeentch to have a sorcerer within 18 cast skeins and have Black rune. For 3/5 saves. But the fire power even with an icon extra ap -1 is still limited as is range.
On top of that they would have to be in a rhino and can’t disembark same turn. As for 3 terminators, over less is mute. To hold mid for exalt dark gods you need an icon unit or a DA or a MoP to get it at end of turn over waiting until beginning of your next turn.
Yes, you could use oblits as 2 or 3 separate units to get backfield, which is fine. But mine was about mid objective control and getting points first turn, so less than 3 can hinder damage output and survivability.
IwinUlose wrote: I’d have to disagree with possessed mid to a degree. They have no range output, which means far easier to just ignore like what can be done to the terminators or chosen. However Terminators can have more offensive range weapons than chosen Or possessed who have none.
As for chosen mid they have no invulnerable and their range are only bolt pistols. Now perhaps if you took mark of Tzeentch to have a sorcerer within 18 cast skeins and have Black rune. For 3/5 saves. But the fire power even with an icon extra ap -1 is still limited as is range.
On top of that they would have to be in a rhino and can’t disembark same turn. As for 3 terminators, over less is mute. To hold mid for exalt dark gods you need an icon unit or a DA or a MoP to get it at end of turn over waiting until beginning of your next turn.
Yes, you could use oblits as 2 or 3 separate units to get backfield, which is fine. But mine was about mid objective control and getting points first turn, so less than 3 can hinder damage output and survivability.
You're still thinking too restrictively. When you're designing your army you don't want to be so hamstrung by assigning such specific roles to individual units because you encounter problems if your designated units are killed. For example, you don't need to hold the middle of the board with the same unit each turn. You can use Possessed in turn 1 because they're fast and then have a unit of Legionaries or a MoP or Terminators holding the middle in turn 2. The key thing with Possessed, especially for the WB secondary, is the lack of ranged output means you can happily use them to perform an action in turn 1 without losing anything. If your opponent ignores them due to a lack of ranged output that's fantastic, because they're then untouched to go and blender a unit in your next turn. Chosen, especially with the Black Rune, are durable enough for most purposes. The 3 wounds really helps them stay alive, moreso when buffed with all the defensive powers. Also, Chosen have bolters and potentially combi-weapons for ranged output, not just pistols.
Comparing Oblits to Possessed for midfield holding only works if you compare points (utility is also important). 3 Oblits are basically the same cost as 10 Possessed. In that scenario the Possessed are vastly more durable. Even better, you can take 2 units of 5 Possessed instead of 1 unit of 10, which can often make them even harder to deal with. The biggest problem Oblits will always face is the simple fact they cost far too much for what they achieve. When you can get almost 4 Chosen for the same cost as a single Oblit it becomes hard to justify including them at all.
I second your motion......lame. I would rather him have less T and less W so he could be look our sir, and not degrade. Maybe the -1 damage combined with the 2+/4++ will make that big of a deal, but T7 "vehicle" type units aren't known for their survivalbility (Look at Angron). I mean my lord discordant can probably match him via combat prowess, but can hide behind venom crawlers. For way less points. His command abilities are cute, but since he can't be screened, the opponent can just concentrate their fire on him and they are of pretty limited range, and require line of sight. Also no <legion> key word but "agent of chaos", so no detachment abilities for him (also does that affect Let the Galaxy Burn?). Overall not impressed.
Also, his AoR seems lame, basically just gives the Wantons to daemon engines, while everything else losses it, plus no legion trait. So unless you are going to field an arks of omen detachment with nothing but daemon engines, I don't see the point.
I second your motion......lame. I would rather him have less T and less W so he could be look our sir, and not degrade. Maybe the -1 damage combined with the 2+/4++ will make that big of a deal, but T7 "vehicle" type units aren't known for their survivalbility (Look at Angron). I mean my lord discordant can probably match him via combat prowess, but can hide behind venom crawlers. For way less points. His command abilities are cute, but since he can't be screened, the opponent can just concentrate their fire on him and they are of pretty limited range, and require line of sight. Also no <legion> key word but "agent of chaos", so no detachment abilities for him (also does that affect Let the Galaxy Burn?). Overall not impressed.
Also, his AoR seems lame, basically just gives the Wantons to daemon engines, while everything else losses it, plus no legion trait. So unless you are going to field an arks of omen detachment with nothing but daemon engines, I don't see the point.
That's 3 Forgefiends, 3 Maulerfiends, 3 Venomcrawlers, and 3 Heldrakes. How many points is that LOL
He doesn't get Let the Galaxy Burn since its an ability. Look at any other CSM entry and its listed there. His own AoR doesnt give it to him either as he's not a Deamon Engine. No alignment either so there's that too.
The best way to running a Vashtorr army I would think would be to have a MoP and Lord Discordant as the other two HQ's, with a about three or four units of Legionnaires to hold objectives, and then just flood the board with daemon engines. It might even be best two have two spearhead detachments, with at least one regular Warpsmith, to max out the number of engines.
Vashtorr is pathetic. He must be within 18" of an enemy vehicle and visible to it to reduce its guns to half range. Guess what ? Most vehicles will still be able to shoot him with that reduced range. He cant repair his own daemon engines. He doesnt benefit from his own AoR ability, he is not a daemon engine. Good luck getting him within melee range of an enemy vehicle to use his hammer. A disco lord can give a KLOS +1 to hit in melee, but vashtorr cant.
The ability to put daemon engines into all the wantons is a pretty powerful buff. I will say that he should have been able to buff Soul Grinders, since he's the lord of the Soul Forge.
ArcaneHorror wrote: The ability to put daemon engines into all the wantons is a pretty powerful buff. I will say that he should have been able to buff Soul Grinders, since he's the lord of the Soul Forge.
It's the equivalent of +1 to-hit for the right weapons.
I'd be interested in it, since I run a lot of Engines, if Vashtorr himself wasn't so blech.
ArcaneHorror wrote: The ability to put daemon engines into all the wantons is a pretty powerful buff. I will say that he should have been able to buff Soul Grinders, since he's the lord of the Soul Forge.
It's the equivalent of +1 to-hit for the right weapons.
I'd be interested in it, since I run a lot of Engines, if Vashtorr himself wasn't so blech.
He doesn't even have a sweep attack profile with the claw like I expected.
I've played a few test games now versus a number of optimized meta-lists and done well.
Admittedly I'm not the best player, but I know how screen out my units from DS, how to play objectives etc.
I have to say I'm surprised by the performance of CSM in the global AoO meta ecosystem.
I think it could be for a couple reasons:
1) CSM Secondaries are still quite hard to play.
2) I notice that the meta hasn't caught up to AoO yet. The AoO allies system massively favors CSM. A Knight plugs so many gaps in CSM for example. A lot of the games played are still fielding pure CSM, so this potential is not being tapped. Likewise Terminators and Abaddon are still fielded, which in my opinion are too slow and suffer post-Nephilim; the Terminators particularly in comparison to Chosen do not fare well. Likewise, in post-AoC its better to field MSUMEQ, rather than blobs and Helbrutes and Decimators are helped tremendously by strategic reserves.
The list I've been playing has done some cool things: I've out-gunlined AM and IH. I was able to use strategic reserves tricks to counter the RW/DW combo. I haven't played Aeldari, GK and Custodes. Those faster-paced trading games might be tougher, especially where there is a lot of melee.
I'd like to take the list to a GT or RTT, but there is no local scene and work is pretty full on.
Also, given that we are only a few months from an edition change it seems better to wait for that.
Samii, your post is so timely to me personally. I've been watching blood for the god's videos and am currently right on the verge of scooping up 2 Decimators and another 2 Helbrutes (shamelessly copying his list lol). There seem to be a lot of Daemons running around in my local scene and the thought of copious ranged mortals is delightful. Have you experience great personal results with the Decimators specifically? Or is this just mostly hearsay?
For a while Decimators have been known to be good in BL.
With reserves in AoO they can just show up and delete things: I found that against DW they were very useful.
The Volkite Contemptor is another key. With Eternal Vendetta, if your opponent has something big and tough starting on the board, they are basically handing it over to you.
Turn 2 you switch to killing infantry with it. The Nurgle version (see the previous post) never dies.
Where Dean opened my eyes was with Helbrutes, they work really well now. They can let you play offensively, coming in flaming infantry, cracking vehicles with MM and charging stuff. They can interrupt in the shooting phase, which is an undervalued ability and can score BEL. Alternately, you play defensively, if your opponent rushes your DZ and (in my list) castle, they can come in Turn 2, shoot and charge them from an 1" away.
I have tried various things, but I think Dean's Helbrutes strat works particularly well in the AoO meta.
