Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well they shoot flame, so... yeah. They should.

tneva82 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
They're flamers, they SHOULD autohit. The problem is what they're autohitting WITH.

So every weapon with word flames(not even flamer. Flames) should autohit,?


You do realize don't you there's other similar named weapons that don't autohit?

How many Flamer weapons aren't autohitting LOL

What makes it flamer weapon? Word flames? That means other weapons that aren't autohitting should autohit...

Or seeing all name says is flames it can be interpreted as firing fireballs. Those don't generally get classified as autohitting.

But sure. We need more units shooting 18" 20 s4 -1 autohits in the game for example. Or after casualties up to 40 s3 -1 autohits.


Since both clearly haven't looked btw weapon has no term "flamer" in it so weapon isn't automatically flamer.

Of course they could make them at least 50 pts per model. Would that be better?

It's not like this is as big nerf as it seems. Not even half the damage output in daemon army and as allies weeping(not)

tneva82 wrote:
What makes it flamer weapon? Word flames?

Flames tend to indicate flames. Kinda obvious.

Also their fluff specifies launching flames. Artwork depicts them shooting flame. The Exalted Flamer mini literally has fire spewing out of him. They're literally called Flamers. It's about the least subtle GW gets with their daemons and what they're about.

What about this is unclear to you?

You're attempting to make a "What's in a Name/Style over Substance" argument, except that this style has substance: Repeated and emphasised use of flames and flame motifs in conjunction with... and I can't believe I have to say their name and have it still not be obvious to you: FLAMERS.

The exalted flamers blue fire attack doesnt automatically hit, he is also called a flamer, and the guns name is fire of tzeentch. Lots of fire and flame there as well, but no autohit. The guns second profile called pink fire does autohit, though.

tneva82 wrote:
What makes it flamer weapon? Word flames? That means other weapons that aren't autohitting should autohit...

Or seeing all name says is flames it can be interpreted as firing fireballs. Those don't generally get classified as autohitting.

But sure. We need more units shooting 18" 20 s4 -1 autohits in the game for example. Or after casualties up to 40 s3 -1 autohits.


Since both clearly haven't looked btw weapon has no term "flamer" in it so weapon isn't automatically flamer.

Of course they could make them at least 50 pts per model. Would that be better?

It's not like this is as big nerf as it seems. Not even half the damage output in daemon army and as allies weeping(not)

You didn't answer the question

This bickering about what does an does not constitute an auto-hitting flamer-like weapon is about as arbitrary as it gets... The unit/weapons do whatever GW says they do, and they'll call them what they want. -fin-

I'd like to move onto mor relevant material now...

How many legionaries do you guys like bringing to Nephilim games for the purpose of scoring objectives. How many units, and how many models within each? I have my cultists, and I plan on keeping at least one unit for low risk objectives, however I need some expendable but hardier choices on the board.

None, because legionaries are bad.

 p5freak wrote:
None, because legionaries are bad.

I'll amend that I run black legion...so I have access to "Heralds of Doom" which allows Black Legion legionaries to removed enemy objective secured . Coupled with Long War (A traditionally dismal secondary).... It could be a powerful tactic.

So you just fill your troop slots with cultists?

Legionaries can be OK in 5-man squads with the Tome to make them a psyker, but you probably only want one unit. A 5-man Khorne unit with an icon, in a Rhino can also be OK. The only CSM Legion that tends to run lots of power armoured Troops is Emperor's Children, but that's really just for the access to Blastmasters.

Kangarupe wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
None, because legionaries are bad.

I'll amend that I run black legion...so I have access to "Heralds of Doom" which allows Black Legion legionaries to removed enemy objective secured . Coupled with Long War (A traditionally dismal secondary).... It could be a powerful tactic.

So you just fill your troop slots with cultists?

Heralds of Doom is 2 CP so the reality of it is you probably use it once to score 4~10 or prevent your opponent scoring 4~10 if they give you the opportunity.

So for now, yes fill Troops slots with Cultists. When the new AoO detachment comes out, maybe drop Troops altogether (unless some mystery rule Makes Troops Great Again).

Kangarupe wrote:

So you just fill your troop slots with cultists?

Yes i do. I hope legionaries will get a reasonable point drop next month, something like 3-4 points. If AoC is removed they need to drop something like 6 points.

 p5freak wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:

So you just fill your troop slots with cultists?

Yes i do. I hope legionaries will get a reasonable point drop next month, something like 3-4 points. If AoC is removed they need to drop something like 6 points.

Do we really want a basic CSM to be worth less than twice what a Guardsman is worth?

I'd much, MUCH rather have them be badass than cheap.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:

So you just fill your troop slots with cultists?

Yes i do. I hope legionaries will get a reasonable point drop next month, something like 3-4 points. If AoC is removed they need to drop something like 6 points.

Do we really want a basic CSM to be worth less than twice what a Guardsman is worth?

I'd much, MUCH rather have them be badass than cheap.

Well that's not what we're gonna get when AoC is removed, even though the new darlings Votaan get to keep an even better version of it.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:

So you just fill your troop slots with cultists?

Yes i do. I hope legionaries will get a reasonable point drop next month, something like 3-4 points. If AoC is removed they need to drop something like 6 points.

Do we really want a basic CSM to be worth less than twice what a Guardsman is worth?

I'd much, MUCH rather have them be badass than cheap.

Well dg dropping 2 pts so 6 pts is pipe dream from wildest hallucinations.

tneva82 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:

So you just fill your troop slots with cultists?

Yes i do. I hope legionaries will get a reasonable point drop next month, something like 3-4 points. If AoC is removed they need to drop something like 6 points.

Do we really want a basic CSM to be worth less than twice what a Guardsman is worth?

I'd much, MUCH rather have them be badass than cheap.

Well dg dropping 2 pts so 6 pts is pipe dream from wildest hallucinations.

just as much as GW halucinating seeing PM's or CSM lists based on Legionaires then.

If currently Cultists are considered "better" than AoC Legionaries, then it does feel like Legionaries are going to need a new rule or a steep discount to catch up post AoC.

I'm also wondering the same for DG, for Poxwalkers vs AoC Plague Marines, I favoured the Poxwalkers, so Poxwalkers vs. non AoC but cheaper PMs feels like a win for the Poxwalkers too.

Kangarupe wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
None, because legionaries are bad.

So you just fill your troop slots with cultists?

yes, traitor guard x4, enforcer x2, dark commune.

I'm word bearers, so it fits. the rest of the list is rubrics, plague marines, havocs, etc. ends up working pretty well,but then I have a relaxed meta

I've also started using traitor guard squads as my basic troops and my legionaries sit on a shelf looking sadly at me.

I regret nothing.

I do sometimes run one squad of mark of tzeentch legionaries, if only because it's fun to stack a couple stratagems to turn them into a bullet hose firing ap -2 bolters with a volley of plasma.

Did we get a nerf without us ever being that dominant in the first place?

-Lost AOC...fine
-Terminators went up 3 points
-Abby rocketed up 50 (that's probably warranted...)
-MoS went up 5 points
-CoB ability nerfed

Cost improvement: Defiler went down 5 points lol. Small changes, but with the exception of the Abby increase I don't feel like we were particularly dominant. Opposite thoughts?

To me the most interesting thing about the new points changes is that Legionaries get all of their equipment other than the bale tome for free. While I am probably going to limit troops as they are not necessary, 5 Legionaries with a Plasma gun, Chain Cannon, melee weapon on the Sergent and plasma pi is only 90 points. Down from like 120-130. That is not a bad backfield objective holder. Also icon is free now, so +15 points and you get -1 ap from Tzeentch which makes plasma -4 and chain cannon -2. At only 105 points I am thinking of taking that.

Also a ten man with with Tzeentch for the bolters and all the weapons (chain cannon, plasma gun) is only 195. Also might not be bad.

The cost increase on the terminators sucks, they should have withheld that until after everyone sees how loss of AoC really affects surivivability.

also, Chosen should have gotten a price decrease. They were already edged out by Terminators (which are still better despite the increase) and possessed. Also they should really make their ability just that they are in all three wantons from the start. Needing to kill something means that ability is not really going to kick in until turn 3 if you are lucky (as you are unlikely to kill something turn 1) which doesn't help as then you are going to be in slaughter anyway and all you gain is exploding 6's on rapid fire, which is like "yea....so what".

The loss of AoC is probably the biggest thing, but I think everyone saw that coming.

Kangarupe wrote:
Did we get a nerf without us ever being that dominant in the first place?

-Lost AOC...fine
-Terminators went up 3 points
-Abby rocketed up 50 (that's probably warranted...)
-MoS went up 5 points
-CoB ability nerfed

Cost improvement: Defiler went down 5 points lol. Small changes, but with the exception of the Abby increase I don't feel like we were particularly dominant. Opposite thoughts?

Another thing abby looks to be bit harder to fit into non-csm armies without breaking purity bonuses. For example not sure can chaos knight get all knight have same god faction keyword?

Someone help me come to my senses. I feel like rubric marine stock is rapidly rising:
-strategic reserves will be free in Arks… so drop in within flamer attack range
- (-2) AP weapons (warpflamers) have now become more deadly with AOC removed
- rubrics have their own, better version of AOC
- as far as I know warpflamers get “let the galaxy burn” +2 damage
- detachments in Arks free’d up, less troops more elites

…I know they were popular before but they feel super deadly now. Or I’m very wrong. ??‍♂️

Edit: -3AP with the icon of flame which supposedly costs nothing in the new dataslate
Maybe not “better” than AOC, the +1 to the save is worded a little janky, still!

Rubrics dont get an ICON, their icon of flame is not the same. LTGB is not +2 damage, its +2 hits with flamers. Also read the rules for strategic reserves how, when, and where they can arrive.

 p5freak wrote:
Rubrics dont get an ICON, their icon of flame is not the same. LTGB is not +2 damage, its +2 hits with flamers. Also read the rules for strategic reserves how, when, and where they can arrive.

Ah ok, I had wondered that...all right, no icon. And yeah, morning hours bonehead forgetfulness on LTGB, but still pretty solid. 10 man squad guaranteeing at least 30 auto-hits ain't shabby. As for the reinforcement rules...yeah I think I've got that down: Turn 2 onward, staying 9" away, generally on any one of 3 sides of the board other than opponent battlefield edge. Can't charge, no issue there...just there to lay down fire on the first go (hopefully not leaving too much / anything on the board to charge next turn :/ )

Just realized and I find this absolutely hilarious, but Blightlord Terminators are 4 more points a model than the CSM version, but get wargear free. That seems balanced LOL.

Does anyone know what size the Blood Slaughterer is to the Venomcrawler? I've heard of some people of thinking about making a Venomcrawler into a Blood Slaughterer, and I was wondering if such a thing would make sense.

Hi all.

I was interested to see the differences with Arks of Omen and dataslate/munitorum.

My old Black Legion list, the one I posted a while back, was undefeated in Nephilim. Sometimes with big wins 90+ to about 40 against Tyranids, Votann, new AM, Quins etc.

So I've tried a few speculative tests with the info from WC and the dataslate/munitorum. In short the list is even better now.

I've replaced the Pod with a Dreadblade War Dog Brigand with MOTDM and the Daemonic Surge trait. Other than that list is basically the same, as Legionnaires are cheaper and I dropped Marks on Contemptor, Apostle and Havocs.

My thoughts RE the changes:

1) Secondaries look good from what I hear. When scoring isn't an issue, having better Secondaries gives an army room to breathe. Cultists will still win games based on their tertiary actions, screening and Banners.

2) Rubrics with Warp Time are as good as pre-nerf Flamers. The OW makes them a problem. I can see Plague Marines as a viable alternative, but Rubrics will shine more now that Marines lost AoC and will be the new Meta.

3) AoC isn't as big of a deal. With the 4++ Tzeentch power and cover you retain roughly the same survivability on the basic Marine units. Terminators never relied on AoC to be unkillable and they still present a bigger problem than the Loyalist equivalent, when they can be charged on Turn 1 and can shoot/clear chaff off objectives.

4) The War Dog, is the icing on the cake. I don't lose command points to take it, assuming we're the same as IK. In addition to the Terminators it is potentially a Transhit, Transhuman, 4++ shooting platform that can get back up on death, is Objective Secured and provides very efficient firepower to an army that lacks it.

5) Abaddon in BL is bonkers, being able to heal him, Warp Time and advance and charge makes him still worth the points.

There's ways around the loss of AoC and my shooting got better, it gained about 30% efficiency versus Marines, Sisters and AM. Nids, Tau, Quins and Votann all got heavily nerfed with points increases.

In fairness while Marines did drop in points, I can't see a marine list that gives more than 300-400 points from those changes and my army is now even more efficient at killing them, than they me.

Best,
Samii.

An extra 400 points makes Loyalists way more efficient at killing Traitors than we would be at killing them.

Also nobody is going to cast a 4++ on regular Marines. The army lost a lot with no AoC and gained nothing.