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Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Starting a new thread now that the Chaos Space Marines Codex is out and the rules are all out over the internet as well. I will just link one of the many youtube videos that reviewed the book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXPKz35fpWc&ab_channel=AuspexTactics
By Auspex Tactics

There are many more on youtube, but I like the power point presentation format display that Auspex Tactics use.

This is a very good video on playing match play CSM by a very good player who is actually using one of the "not so highly rated legions" and yet he is winning lots of games with it. A lot of the stuff he says can be applied to other legions as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O6FPW8xk44&ab_channel=FrontlineGamingNetwork

Some things I personally like:

1. Any legion unit can get +1 toughness via the mutated invigoration psychic power. We can make a Lord of skulls T9 ... lol

2. Nurgle units in a CSM army can now get Transhuman via the Strategem Grandfather's blessing. This is kinda huge. We all know how powerful Transhuman is. And also, we can add plague marines as elite choices into our army and they now get all their special weapons for free. Let's look at how durable we can make Nurgle units in CSM. We can give it +1 toughness from Mutated Invigorated psychic power, give it -1 to hit from Miasma of pestilence, give it Transhuman (can only wound on 4+). via Grandfather's blessing. Mark of Nurgle makes natural 4s to wound need 5s instead. And we can even add on a prayer Illusionary Supplication so that the unit gets Trans-hit (can only get hit on 4+) plus hits against it cannot be rerolled. That's a massive stack of buffs, but wow is this unit going to be hard to kill. lol

3. Cloak of Conquest relic gives a character an aura that makes any Core units and characters within 6 inches Obsec. This means we can make all our terminators, chosen, plague marines, rubrics, noise marines all obsec as long as they are within 6 inches of this character.

4. Veil Breaker Plate gives us veil of darkness ability. We can teleport one character and a nearby unit to anywhere on the board (usual 9 inch from enemy restrictions apply). Teleport a 10-man rubric marine flamer squad to 9 inches and flame away! (+20 autohits because of our new let the galaxy burn).

5. Our new Let the Galaxy Burn rules makes fishing for exploding 6s very fun on units with high number of attacks (ranged or melee). Pairs well with Abbadon who can give one Core unit reroll all hits (and wounds if you are black legion).

6. Abbadon is an absolute beast. Probably the most powerful 9W character in the game right now that can benefit from "look out sir". He will murder anything he touches.

7. Master of Possession and Malefic psychic disclpline is so good. This character will literally define certain lists. Like he can heal Abaddon (who only takes max 3 damage per phase). He can also resurrect an obliterator (90 points) as long as the unit still has one model left). And Cursed Earth on a daemonkin centric army is going to be so good (especially with the new awesome possessed).

8. You can kit out a flying Daemon Prince or a Lord Discordant to truly monstrous levels now because you can give it two relics and a warlord trait.

9. The new Chaos Land Raider is so good! Improved soulshatter lascannons. And T9 with AOC massively increases its durability. A lot of armies will find our LR really hard to kill.

Do share what combos or themes you like from the new 9th edition codex on this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, some Theme centric armies I thought about.

1. Abaddon centric. He pairs well with so many different armies. But he probably gives the most benefit to a black legion army with at least one huge block of 10 terminators. A 10 man terminator unit that is shooting and fighting with exploding 6s (because of Let the Galaxy Burn and Abbadon giving it reroll all hits and wounds) is going to be scary.

2. Daemon Engine centric. A Lord of Skulls buffed to T9 and 4++ by a master of possession, being given +1 to hit and D3 healing by a warpsmith. An Iron Warriors warlord with architect of destruction gives this LOS Wanton destruction every turn (Heavy weapons get exploding 6s). You can give another character the Siege Lord trait and now all the high damage guns near him get +1 damage. This will make that 12 shot gun on the LOS truly scary now (Str 8, 3 damage, exploding 6s). Back the LOS up with the super cheap Venom Crawlers, other Daemon engines, and maybe 1 Lord Discordant and we now have a pretty thematic army that sounds fun to play and looks awesome!

3. Possessed centric melee rush. The new possessed model stats are amazing. So just bring as many as we can, back it up with characters and such, and we will have an army that is going to absolutely murder stuff in close combat while moving 9 inches per turn.

4. Noise Marine spam/centric. Emperor's children legion has some fun rules, and let the galaxy burn is going to be so good on those sonic blastors. Obsec Noise Marines in an Emperor's Children legion can do a lot of things. Honor the Prince is still in the codex. So, terminators warp striking in, shooting with exploding 6s, and then charging into combat with this strategem is absolutely a thing. Can use a 1 man Obliterator for this strategy too. Smaller deepstrike footprint and just 90 points. Obliterators melee are scary now (They are literally wielding power fists with no -1 to hit). A single Obliterator can totally take on and beat the usual 5 man marine backfield unit in the backfield objective alone.

5. World Bearer's melee centric army: The legion rules for this legion are kinda strong... reroll all hits on first round of melee combat, and a 5++ against MW. They use Dark Apostles the best as well.

6. Red Corsairs legion. Everything advances and charges! Pairing this legion trait with the new possessed that has a 9 inch move and venomcrawlers or warptalons is going to give an army that will be right up in our opponent's face from the word "Go!"

7. Herohammer theme. Get Abaddon, a flying Daemon prince, and 2 Lord discordants, buff them up to the max with warlord traits and relics (especially the Daemon weapons!) and have the rest of the army just focus on delivering them into combat so that they can murder stuff. We can create some absolutely scary characters plus the murder machine Abaddon. Between them, they will smash through and kill anything we want them to.

I do think most of our lists should focus more on melee than shooting though. Given how good most of our units are at fighting, plus the buffs that can be given to their melee attacks, it would be a waste to focus only on shooting when making a CSM list.

This message was edited 14 times. Last update was at 2022/07/19 01:38:43


 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




About Legionnaries :

I don't see them being good outside 2 configurations :

- No Mark, no Icon, 5-men squad with the book option. It's cheap, it's one extra power or deny the witch ;

- Mark of Khorne, Icon, 10-men squad with astartes chainsword and that's it.

The first configuration is a no brainer. It only costs 110 points and it can help a bit during the psychic phase, which is good.

The second configuration is more expensive (200 points). However, it is very decent in melee with 41 Attacks at S5 AP-2. They are reasonably tanky thanks to AoC and they have objective secured. However, they are still some kind of Carnifex distraction. The heavy chainaxe and daemon blade could really increase their damage potential, but that's 20 points for a unit which is painfully slow and Rhinos are still not good (even with AoC). I'm still debating myself if this configuration is actually worth it or not. Also, thanks to Nephilim, we will never spend 2 CP to fight again.

Slaanesh and Tzeench Marks aren't worth it. I would have tested a Tzeentch-centric squad if they could take 2 times the same special weapon. Because they can't, I don't see the point of such a squad (which is such a shame god damn it !).

As for a Slaanesh-centric squad, I consider the Mark of Slaanesh to be a total waste on Legionnaries : the bonus to hit rolls can be found elsewhere, the fight first part is not that important on a squad which will have huge troubles going through AoC. They have access to more buffs because they aren't Khorne (5+ FnP etc), but I'd rather buff a unit which is naturally a lot more dangerous (mainly, Terminators and perhaps Chosen).
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm thinking 4 squads of Chaos Marines, no upgrades besides the Axe and a Power Fist on the Champ. Icon and Marks optional, and honestly not necessary. MAYBE Khorne. MAYBE.

I'm calling for it for the Corsairs to be the strongest ruleswise due to the mobility and delayed reserves strat. That's an early guess though, and I'll fiddle with stuff once Battlescribe is updated. Not feeling inspired by the codex though.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

The phrase "Abaddon is an absolute beast" has been repeated a lot. Calling a moratorium until the book has been out for a month.

5 Legionnaires with psychic book costs 110 pts, 10 Mutants + 6 Torments costs 150 points. Given the current meta, I'm not sure if 24" S4 D1 shooting is worth considering. I'd take the Mutants over them in most lists, just for the regeneration.

Laspreds have me weirdly psyked. There's finally a reason to take them over Havocs, they now have better guns and can move and shoot without penalty. This was the biggest surprise for me in the Codex.

   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Just my opinion on Legionaires.

Yeah, I was quite excited about balefire tomes before the codex came out. But actually, I think balefire tomes now are a bit of a trap after having making up some lists and going through the book. Its 20 points, which seems so cheap at first. But you probably need to have a specific psychic in mind. The problem is Prescience isn't that great anymore, we are simply better as a melee focus army.

The cult psychic are good. But that means we need to spend another 15 points to give the legionaire squad a mark. The issue is once we start doing that, all the points start adding up. That means we have now spent 35 points for the sole purpose of getting a specific god psychic. Its still cheaper than getting a separate character, but here's the thing. A character can't be shot at and killed while a squad of legionaires can.

If for example, you are relying on this to cast say "Miasma of Pestilence" or "Delightful Agonies" every turn. Your opponent can kill the squad and you have now lost your psyker. Its far harder to target and kill a Master of possession or sorceror hiding behind all your actual units.

Also, we can add marks to our characters as well. And we have relics like the Liber Hereticus that gives us an additional cast. So, in my above example, its far easier to just spend only 15 points to give our Master Of possession a Mark and a relic, and have him cast that psychic.

The issue is the legionaire squad just doesn't do much. Elite units like Terminators, Possessed, Chosen, pound for pound just fight so much better. 150 points of any one of these would absolutely murder stuff. While 150 points of legionaires would do only half as well as they would (if lucky).

Basically, they are there to provide obsec and do action. So, I really would keep them as cheap as possible and forget about the balefire tomes for now. Unless we are trying out some sort of MW list where we are trying to do a lot of psychic .. in which case Tsons would just do it better. We would just to be trying to be a second rate Tsons army.

One balefire tome or even two might be ok if we have the strategy for it. Like for example, say we plan to keep a legionaire unit on a back objective anyway, and it will stay in ruins behind obscuring while casting a Misma of pestilence or delightful agonies onto a Terminator squad that is bullying the center of the board. But don't spend too many points on legionaires. They are simply not efficient. The same amount of effort (points, buffs, strategems) spent on elite units like Chosen, Terminators, possessed would get far far bigger benefits.

(I think legionaires are the cheapest models we can sacrifice to a master of possession's dagger for a +2 to cast. lol). A cheap vanilla squad might be good just for that. Want a key psychic to go off. Sacrifice a legionaire to take d3MW to get a +2 to cast.) But only for a key psychic that you absolutely need to cast this turn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 techsoldaten wrote:
The phrase "Abaddon is an absolute beast" has been repeated a lot. Calling a moratorium until the book has been out for a month.

5 Legionnaires with psychic book costs 110 pts, 10 Mutants + 6 Torments costs 150 points. Given the current meta, I'm not sure if 24" S4 D1 shooting is worth considering. I'd take the Mutants over them in most lists, just for the regeneration.

Laspreds have me weirdly psyked. There's finally a reason to take them over Havocs, they now have better guns and can move and shoot without penalty. This was the biggest surprise for me in the Codex.


There are pros and cons. Havocs are Core. So Abaddon can give them reroll all hits and all wounds to a Havoc squad on turn 1. But yeah, T8 Predator Tanks in the back line with 2 shots of a special twin soulshatter D6+2 lascannon makes Predator tanks more interesting now.

It feels like we should go Iron Warriors if we want to run 3 Predator Tanks though. They have the most buffs for vehicles.


About Abaddon. Let's give it a month and see. I actually feel that he is not so easy to use. Charge him up alone, and there are ways to bring him down. Charge him up the board with friends, and that makes for a very obvious force where you have invested a massive number of points. And he is limited by his 6 inch movement. So, the force he is in, is no different from that 10 man Blightlord force with DG characters in tow or that Tsons 10 man scarab occult terminator force with characters in tow. I would argue that for this style of play, DG might do it even better. Their entire battle strategy is usually, they want to get up to midboard to bully the center.

Put Abaddon in warpstrike with say obliterators or Terminators. And well... you have just put around one third of your army into deep strike where they are not going to come down until turn 2. If some one screens well, you may not even have good targets to shoot or charge even if you come down. Someone plays Red Corsairs against you and now one of your units come down turn 3 ...

So... yeah. For all these reasons. I think lets give it a month and see if they tweak this. Abaddon is amazing, but I think he takes skill to use well.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/28 03:46:32


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Am I reading this right... Diabolic Strength now only works on Infantry/Spawn?

A DP can't cast it on himself?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Am I reading this right... Diabolic Strength now only works on Infantry/Spawn?

A DP can't cast it on himself?


Yup. That's correct. Diabolic Strength doesn't work on Daemon Prince now. However, there are other ways to make a DP an absolute monster in combat. I think we can save Diabolic strength for buffing Abaddon or another Infantry character instead (like a Dark Apostle).

DP should go with daemon weapons relics, warlord traits, and Marks for their power. It boosts them to some pretty scary levels of power. If we don't mind blowing all our starting CP on relics and warlord traits, I do think Herohammer for CSM lists are a thing. We can kit out one flying daemon Prince, two Lord Discordants, and Abbadon and run these four up the board supported by the rest of our army. All four will absolutely wreck stuff once they get stuck in. spending 1 CP on making weapons on a DP or a Lord Discordant into daemon weapons is absolutely nuts. Boost their already good weapons to super power weapons level of status. You can't get a relic weapon that comes even close.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/28 01:21:15


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

DP has to take a Mark, so can't take Ul'o'cca the Black, right?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
DP has to take a Mark, so can't take Ul'o'cca the Black, right?


Correct. DP cannot take Ul'o'cca the Black. We can use Ul'c'ca on a Lord Discordant instead. Its actually the same base 6 attacks as a starting point. Ul'o'cca combined with the warlord trait flames of spite is so good. Can reroll wounds, wounds will do 1 MW, and wounds of 6 will do 2 MW. lol. The base weapon damage plus the MW output from these two combined is massive. And the Lord DIscordant get +1 damage against vehicles and a +1 to wound innate anyway.

Almost all of the daemon weapons are worth looking at. Like the Tzeentch one for example ignores all invul. Usually the stuff we want to kill might have an invul. So, ignoring invul is huge. I mean, the reason we look at MW is partly because it goes right through invul as well.

And the Slanaash one is for the biggest number of attacks increase. Even a Sword DP with the Slanaash relic daemon weapon has a ridiculous number of attacks.

The Khorne Daemon weapon adds D3 damage. On an Axe or sword DP which is already flat damage 3. Just one failed save will mean 3+d3 damage, which will guarantee kill any 4W character, and often kill even a 5W character.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/06/28 02:39:59


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I haven't had time to get through Auspex's whole video yet (I'm up to psychic powers). Are there other Legion-specific Daemon Weapons besides that rather paltry offering of 5?

My Daemon Prince, who is Khornate, has a Wailing Doom fused to his right hand as his "Daemon Weapon", and I thought that Ul'o'cca would be more representative of that than +D3 damage (woo!).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/28 01:51:53


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I haven't had time to get through Auspex's whole video yet (I'm up to psychic powers). Are there other Legion-specific Daemon Weapons besides that rather paltry offering of 5?

My Daemon Prince, who is Khornate, has a Wailing Doom fused to his right hand as his "Daemon Weapon", and I thought that Ul'o'cca would be more representative of that than +D3 damage (woo!).


Only the five, correct.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I haven't had time to get through Auspex's whole video yet (I'm up to psychic powers). Are there other Legion-specific Daemon Weapons besides that rather paltry offering of 5?

My Daemon Prince, who is Khornate, has a Wailing Doom fused to his right hand as his "Daemon Weapon", and I thought that Ul'o'cca would be more representative of that than +D3 damage (woo!).




Wailing Doom is a sword right? the default Hellforged sword is already an amazing weapon. It is +1 Str, AP3, 3 damage. Maybe just go for max number of attacks on such a Khorne DP? We can go with a Khorne DP with Hatred Incarnate warlord trait. This gives +1A, +1S when charging on heroic intervene and reroll hits all the time. Then add Taslisman of the Burning blood for +1A, 6 inch heroic intervention and +1 attack every time you murder a unit. The attacks will add up really fast.

Like as a default, once you charge, you are charging in with 9 Sword attack which are Str 11, AP3, flat 3 damage, plus your talon attack. And you can reroll all 9 of these attacks to fish for exploding 6s if you are in the correct Wanton phase. And every time you murder a unit or a character, your attacks go up by 1. And you can heroic 6 inches with this DP, which is wild. They can't even come within 6 inches of you without getting murdered lol.

I like that Khorne's new "Fury of Khorne" strategem is a sort of counter to the pesky Transhuman Pysiology. You go Transhuman. I go Fury of Khorne for just 1 CP. Now my 6s to hit auto wound! (Plus I get them to explode for more hits too if I am in Wanton Slaughter.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/28 02:28:28


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Yeah I’m going to be all about a black legion terminator brick with abbadon. Costs 650 points with - 1 AP bolters, gets you a unit which is -1 to W with a relic, can get demon shells for -2 AP and 30 inch range and re-rolls hits and wounds with 40 shots using Abby buff. There’s more buffs if you want to to throw in additional.characters and relics.(like obsec).
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Eldenfirefly wrote:
There are pros and cons. Havocs are Core. So Abaddon can give them reroll all hits and all wounds to a Havoc squad on turn 1. But yeah, T8 Predator Tanks in the back line with 2 shots of a special twin soulshatter D6+2 lascannon makes Predator tanks more interesting now.

It feels like we should go Iron Warriors if we want to run 3 Predator Tanks though. They have the most buffs for vehicles.

Yep. The new Codex does a good job providing variation between Legions by letting them buff units in different ways.

Honestly, I'm still in shock GW improved Chaos LRs / Preds. My excitement may be coloring sound judgement over the efficiency of the unit. My take is Laspreds, in particular, are well priced in any Legion.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
About Abaddon. Let's give it a month and see. I actually feel that he is not so easy to use. Charge him up alone, and there are ways to bring him down. Charge him up the board with friends, and that makes for a very obvious force where you have invested a massive number of points. And he is limited by his 6 inch movement. So, the force he is in, is no different from that 10 man Blightlord force with DG characters in tow or that Tsons 10 man scarab occult terminator force with characters in tow. I would argue that for this style of play, DG might do it even better. Their entire battle strategy is usually, they want to get up to midboard to bully the center.

Footslogging Abaddon has little appeal to me.

The competitive viability of monofaction CSM builds is concerning, I'm not convinced there's enough here to stand up to Eldar, Drukhari, Tau and AdMech. Deep striking Abaddon + Blightlords came to mind as an answer to these factions. My Blightlords have been MVPs in games with my Deathguard army, they can be so hard to kill. Paired with a unit with max damage caps, they could wreck a lot of armies.

So I wouldn't say Abaddon is hard to use. He's versatile and wants to be in combat, even moreso than in 8th. But it might take some imagination to maximize his effectiveness.

   
Made in gb
Furious Raptor




Salt donkey wrote:
Yeah I’m going to be all about a black legion terminator brick with abbadon. Costs 650 points with - 1 AP bolters, gets you a unit which is -1 to W with a relic, can get demon shells for -2 AP and 30 inch range and re-rolls hits and wounds with 40 shots using Abby buff. There’s more buffs if you want to to throw in additional.characters and relics.(like obsec).

I like where you are going, but Terminators can't take an Icon of Tzeentch for the base 1AP.

There seems to be a build for 10 Terminators of:
-1 to wound relic on Champion.
Transhit/no re-rolls to hit Dark Apostle prayer.
+1 Toughness Master of Possession spell.
Res 1 and heal D3 Master of Possession spell.
5+++ or -1 to Hit or 4++ marked caster spell.
+1 Toughness or 6+++ marked prayer.

The mark needs to go on the Terminators as well so 45 for the priest, psyker and unit to have the same.

This works in any legion and there are some Legions who had more defence in their trait or in strategems (or both - hello Iron Warriors).

You go full fists + mark, no shooting for 385. That is a very solid anchor piece for your army to build around.

Then the same question as TSons, first breakfast is nice, but what about second breakfast? Should you take another 10 man terminator squad as back up? Two 5s? Or Possessed who can't take any of the prayer/mark buffs but also take a few other buffs the Terminators can't.

I'm also looking at Plague Marines and Rubric Marines. I think you get no Legion trait bonus rules (e.g. no NL morale/attrition malus), but do get the Legion keyword (for strats, spells, prayers, auras) and do get Let the Galaxy Burn.

So 225 points for 10 Plague Marines gets you the 1 PF, 2 Flails, 2 Cleavers, 1 Mace, 3 Plasma Guns, 2 Blight Launchers. You get your old T5, -1 dam as well as Mark of Nurgle against s5 and s10+. You get exploding 6s and access to +1 to hit from spells/prayers you lacked in DG.

While 252 points for 10 Rubric Marines gets 9d6+18 Warpflamer hits and 1d6+2 Flamepistol hits (57% more hits than normal). You win some/lose some in terms of spells/prayers, you keep All is Dust but you do lose the 5++.
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

With regards to Abaddon, I think the most aggressive combo is to put him into a Dreadclaw.

That way, pretty much guaranteed to drop in 9" away of any enemy unit anywhere on the table Turn 1.

The opponent has to make the hard choices to spread out to mitigate Abby getting close to a juicy target, but that's okay as your opponent would likely have to expose more the they'd like.

Immediate pressure on Turn 1 threat seems spicy. Because you don't HAVE to drop him on Turn 1... the opponent may play/move conservatively on Turn 1 in fear of Abby's Dreadclaw. That conservative play make impact secondary scoring due to sacrificing movements/early strategy in fear of Abby's drop.

Thoughts?


6000
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4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Abaddon absolutely has to get into combat. So I would agree with any and all methods to get him into combat. However, I would raise one point. If you plan to deep strike him in (be it from a dreadclaw or by warpstrike), then a good player will see what you are doing a mile away. And a good player will know how powerful he is in close combat too.

Putting him in a dreadclaw is interesting because turn 1 its coming down. I don't own any forgeworld so I am assuming he can go into a dreadclaw in the first place, but if you are doing that, you will probably put another unit in there as well. (You might as well). And now we are talking about hundreds upon hundreds of points all in one single dreadclaw waiting to come down on turn 1. This is the same issue with deep striking Abaddon. You will likely deep strike him alongside terminators and obliterators. It requires a certain deep strike footprint and any good player can see it coming a mile away.

Considering its easily one third or more of your army deep striking in at one spot. A good opponent WILL screen as if the game win/loss depended on it. (Because it likely will).

I feel like given how durable we can make a big block of terminators or possessed. Applying extreme pressure to the mid board by moving them up the board turn 1 along with Abaddon is how I would do this. Yes, it sounds slow. But Black legion has some interesting subtle tricks and we have warptime as well.

Black Legion has the Veilbreaker plate relic. Its literally veil of time on a terminator model. We don't need a transport or to deepstrike. We can literally turn 1 veil of time a block of "core" terminators right up the board. Now, how will Abbadon get there? Well, we can warp time him up. This is why warptime is still useful even if you can't charge if you cast it. Abbadon that advances along with warptime cast on him will go 12+d6 inches up the board. That's literally like a flying DP.

So, veilbreaker plate a big block of 10 terminators up the board, and warptime Abbadon right up along with them. Now turn 1, we already have a massive force up the board, a terminator character, and Abaddon with them. The good thing about this is we start off hidden. Any time we want, we can activate this strategy. On any turn! Not just turn 1 or 2 or 3. The other good thing about using this strategy is that we don't waste Abaddon's awesome command phase buffs. He is still on the table to hand out his great buffs.

Another trick that Black Legion has. For one CP, we can use "Confluence of Traitors" to have any one of our units gain an extra other legion trait for one battle round. This is soooo good because it opens up 8 other possible legion traits we can add to one unit. Want a unit to advance and charge? Add the Red Corsairs trait to it. Want it to have fight upon death? Add Creation of Bile. Want it to be super tanky? Add Iron Warriors on a unit of Nurgle and Cast Grand Father's Blessing (Now only wound on 4s, and cannot reroll wounds). Lots of MW incoming from a psychic heavy army? Add the World Bearer's Trait for a 5+ FNP against MW.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/28 16:54:02


 
   
Made in us
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Eye of Terror

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Abaddon absolutely has to get into combat. So I would agree with any and all methods to get him into combat. However, I would raise one point. If you plan to deep strike him in (be it from a dreadclaw or by warpstrike), then a good player will see what you are doing a mile away. And a good player will know how powerful he is in close combat too.

Putting him in a dreadclaw is interesting because turn 1 its coming down. I don't own any forgeworld so I am assuming he can go into a dreadclaw in the first place, but if you are doing that, you will probably put another unit in there as well. (You might as well). And now we are talking about hundreds upon hundreds of points all in one single dreadclaw waiting to come down on turn 1. This is the same issue with deep striking Abaddon. You will likely deep strike him alongside terminators and obliterators. It requires a certain deep strike footprint and any good player can see it coming a mile away.

Considering its easily one third or more of your army deep striking in at one spot. A good opponent WILL screen as if the game win/loss depended on it. (Because it likely will).

I feel like given how durable we can make a big block of terminators or possessed. Applying extreme pressure to the mid board by moving them up the board turn 1 along with Abaddon is how I would do this. Yes, it sounds slow. But Black legion has some interesting subtle tricks and we have warptime as well.

Black Legion has the Veilbreaker plate relic. Its literally veil of time on a terminator model. We don't need a transport or to deepstrike. We can literally turn 1 veil of time a block of "core" terminators right up the board. Now, how will Abbadon get there? Well, we can warp time him up. This is why warptime is still useful even if you can't charge if you cast it. Abbadon that advances along with warptime cast on him will go 12+d6 inches up the board. That's literally like a flying DP.

So, veilbreaker plate a big block of 10 terminators up the board, and warptime Abbadon right up along with them. Now turn 1, we already have a massive force up the board, a terminator character, and Abaddon with them. The good thing about this is we start off hidden. Any time we want, we can activate this strategy. On any turn! Not just turn 1 or 2 or 3. The other good thing about using this strategy is that we don't waste Abaddon's awesome command phase buffs. He is still on the table to hand out his great buffs.

Another trick that Black Legion has. For one CP, we can use "Confluence of Traitors" to have any one of our units gain an extra other legion trait for one battle round. This is soooo good because it opens up 8 other possible legion traits we can add to one unit. Want a unit to advance and charge? Add the Red Corsairs trait to it. Want it to have fight upon death? Add Creation of Bile. Want it to be super tanky? Add Iron Warriors on a unit of Nurgle and Cast Grand Father's Blessing (Now only wound on 4s, and cannot reroll wounds). Lots of MW incoming from a psychic heavy army? Add the World Bearer's Trait for a 5+ FNP against MW.

What clever ideas. But deep striking Abaddon seems more efficient.

I'm in the early phases of putting together a melee list to test the new Codex. My main concern is getting the jump on shooty, non-Knight armies. Black Legion has some interesting beta strike possibilities worth considering.

Start the game with a Terminator CL with Veilbreaker Plate, Mutants / Torments, a melee Helbrute, and whatever else on the board. Second turn, deep strike Abaddon plus Terminators and have the CL teleport with the Helbrute while the Mutants seize objectives. Opponent can't ignore the mutants, they regenerate unless the unit is wiped out. So the Terminators don't have to deal with as much focus fire.

This gets more interesting if the Terminators are allied Blightlords and there was also a Lord of Contagion or something there for additional buffs.

   
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So for anyone with the codex, do Rubric Marines, when bought for an army for this codex, get the benefits of this MoT (first failed save is fine) and the Icon (-1AP)?

If the latter is the case, AP-3 Bolters are a gold standard.
   
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EviscerationPlague wrote:
So for anyone with the codex, do Rubric Marines, when bought for an army for this codex, get the benefits of this MoT (first failed save is fine) and the Icon (-1AP)?

If the latter is the case, AP-3 Bolters are a gold standard.


They gain the benefit of the Mark of Tzeentch, but I don't think they gain the extra AP. They have access to the Icon of Flame, however, they do not gain the <ICON> keyword which is necessary to gain the extra AP on their boltgun.
   
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Why is walking abbadon with terminators a bad idea. We live in 9th edition, where turn 2-3 middle of board is the only thing that matters. If your opponent ignores this blob, you are going to win the game. If your opponent attacks it, it’s very tough and hits back hard. Dread claws and DS on non utility units is always a bad idea. You can’t afford to have your most important unit in reserves in a 5 turn game.
   
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Salt donkey wrote:
Why is walking abbadon with terminators a bad idea. We live in 9th edition, where turn 2-3 middle of board is the only thing that matters. If your opponent ignores this blob, you are going to win the game. If your opponent attacks it, it’s very tough and hits back hard. Dread claws and DS on non utility units is always a bad idea. You can’t afford to have your most important unit in reserves in a 5 turn game.

Abaddon footslogging is not a bad idea. The question is how it compares with deep strike.

Footslogging, he's exposed to shooting turn 1 and probably doesn't have a way to charge. Deep striking, he comes on the board turn 2 at 9" from an enemy unit. This also means he can get screened out from an optimal position.

So neither option is perfect. You can walk up the board with a brick, or you can try to pincer your opponent (knowing he's headed for the center.) The value of either tactic depends on what else is in the list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/28 22:20:03


   
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On the subject of deep strike. I feel that deep striking single models of Obliterators is interesting. Now that they can fight well (power fists without the -1 to hit), and they can shoot with three selectable profiles, they are really good for deep striking into the back of your enemy's army.

One Obliterator is only 90 points (cheaper than a squad of deathshroud or Blightlords). And its 5W and 2+ save with armor of contempt. One model takes some effort to kill with armor of contempt. And if its just one Obliterator, the deep strike foot print is quite small. (Smaller than a squad of terminators). It warp strikes down on turn 2 and immediately shoots. We don't need to buff it further because its not Core anyway. If it makes its 9 inch charge into something soft or a vehicle in the backline, I am pretty sure it will bully that unit. A black legion obliterator that makes its 9 inch charge is attacking with 4 attacks at WS2 (because BL), with crushing fists that are Str 10, AP3, Damage 2. This is good into infantry or Vehicles.

The versatility of its guns makes it really good at attacking units cowering behind obscuring cover in the backfield.

Emperor's Children Obliterator get honor the prince (1CP) to charge 6+D6 in the turn they deep strike down because they are Demonkin. That is really going to give problems if they left holes in their backline for you to deep strike into.

I honestly feel that even one single obliterator in deep strike will be enough to cause your opponent to think about spreading out and screening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just a bit of a sidetrack. I notice the codex designer went to great pains to make sure all the units that are Core and can get buffs are not that OP in shooting. (Unless we consider Havocs that great at shooting...). I mean, buffing 4 lascannons shots is not going to break the game, especially since we can't make them shoot twice now.

And all the rest of our Core can't be equipped for max shooting. Like a full squad of terminators will at most have 2 Meltas, 2 plasma guns, 2 flamers, and 2 Reaper autocannons. Its ok, but its not super great by any stretch. And such a unit costs well over 350 points.

A Squad of ten Chosen can fit 4 melta guns and 2 plasma pistols. Again, even with buffs, its not super OP. Especially since such a unit will hit 300 points at least.

And Obliterators are not Core. So, you can't really stack much buffs on them at all.

What makes units like Chosen and Terminators good is their powerful melee abilities. So, semi decent shooting (even with a shooting loadout), but they keep their powerful melee regardless.

This reaffirms my opinion that the designers want CSM to have decent shooting, but they intended for CSM to just really want to get stuck into combat. Because that's where they have far more advantages.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 01:58:37


 
   
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Greetings. I play XX Legion focused around 10 plasma terminators, a headhunter terminator lord with vipers bite, 2x5 plasma chosen in termite or dreadclaw, a faceless commander jump lord and jump sorcerer as the general "core" of the list.
Add to that the actual core of cultists and min squads of HB marines some forgeworld like a chaos sicaran and double zerks for flavor plus a smattering of zoning spawn a heldrake etc. These last bits vary. The HQ and heavy hitters do not typically.

Anyway it's tougher than it looks and extremely fun to play. Now I'm asking is there anything in this new book that can replicate what I mentioned as the core of this list?
Thank you.
   
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dominuschao wrote:
Greetings. I play XX Legion focused around 10 plasma terminators, a headhunter terminator lord with vipers bite, 2x5 plasma chosen in termite or dreadclaw, a faceless commander jump lord and jump sorcerer as the general "core" of the list.
Add to that the actual core of cultists and min squads of HB marines some forgeworld like a chaos sicaran and double zerks for flavor plus a smattering of zoning spawn a heldrake etc. These last bits vary. The HQ and heavy hitters do not typically.

Anyway it's tougher than it looks and extremely fun to play. Now I'm asking is there anything in this new book that can replicate what I mentioned as the core of this list?
Thank you.


Erm, you can bring the same units, they now hit harder, are tankier but their shooting is weaker. A max ten unit of Terminators can only bring 2 combi flamers, meltas, plasma and reaper autocannons. A five man unit of Chosen can only bring 2 plasma guns now, not 5. But Terminators and Chosen are both 3 wounds each now. So far tankier. Plus they fight better now. Accursed weapons are like power swords, but with +1 Str and +1 attack.

If you want something that can shoot close to a 10 man plasma terminator squad, the closest I can think of is a unit of 3 obliterators. They are three profiles they can choose for their shooting. And one of them is a 2 damage profile. Its a Heavy 3+D3, Str 7, AP2, Damage 2 profile. So, a unit of 3 obliterators can shoot 9+3D3 shots. And Obliterators can fight quite well nowadays too. 4 attacks with a power fist equivalent (so Str 10) without the -1 to hit.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

And your Jump Lord/Sorcerer are no more.

And Berzerkers are harder to bring, and you have to buy them Marks, for some reason.

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Yup, no more Jump pack Lords or Jump pack Sorcerors. You will have to think of alternatives, like a flying Daemon Prince or something I am afraid. Sorry, as H.B.M.C said below, you can run both a DP and a chaos lord in a detachment. So not so restrictive.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 03:46:44


 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

You can have a Chaos Lord and a Daemon Prince in the same army.

"You can include a maximum of one Chaos Lord, one Daemon Prince and one Dark Commune unit in each Chaos Space Marines Detachment in your army." - Chaos 9th, page 76.

The operative words being 'and' and 'each'.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 03:43:20


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Jesus that sounds pretty harsh. So what's our go to for shooting then? And by no more you mean literally there's no JPs now? I can't see even gw pulling something like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoa and 1 lord too?! Nah you guys messing with me now. Nice joke 🤣

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 03:44:46


 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

No Jump Pack in the Codex for Chaos Lords/Sorcerers. No Lightning Claws anymore either for them (unless you're a Terminator Lord). Even Raptor Champs can't take Lightning Claws.

Exalted Champs lost all their options too.

Chosen can't take Power Fists for no easily discernible reason.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 03:46:10


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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