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Master of Possesion unable to purchase...??????????????????

Vatsetis wrote:
Master of Possesion unable to purchase...??????????????????

Yes, but I suspect most people would find any Sorcerer model proxy acceptable. It's not a huge problem at the end of the day, just annoying.

Most players from 7th and before probably got one Sorcerer they can use to proxy. However if you even just have a regular Power Armor Sorcerer with an axe or sword nobody will care. After all, there's zero incentive to run a Power Armor Sorcerer anyway so it isn't like the opponent will get too confused about the proxy.

If someone gets confused by that it deserves to serve a year of punishment in GW marketing department.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Most players from 7th and before probably got one Sorcerer they can use to proxy. However if you even just have a regular Power Armor Sorcerer with an axe or sword nobody will care. After all, there's zero incentive to run a Power Armor Sorcerer anyway so it isn't like the opponent will get too confused about the proxy.

My PA Sorcerer models are currently doing proxy duty as Balefire marines.

So, three things I picked up about the Chaos Daemon codex from what Auspex Tactics review. (These three things are standouts to me, gaps in the CSM codex). Everything else the CSM codex can already replicate or have similar stuff.

1. Skull Cannon. This thing is only 100 points, but has a D3+3 Str 8, AP2, D2 gun that fires at 48 inches and ignores cover. It has 9W and doesn't degrade. Its a very efficient long range artillery piece that can even fight in close range. And its so cheap losing one isn't going to hurt as much. I think CSM doesn't have anything nearly as efficient from a long range firepower perspective.

2. Deep strike at 6 inch from warp locus and can be 6 inches from enemy units. Our biggest advantage from allying in some chaos daemons. But we need units with warp locus for this to work well. As a subset to that, Khorne daemons can pay 1CP for banner of blood to have an icon unit roll an additional D6 and discard the lowest roll. CSM only has at most +1 to charge from deep strike.

3. Nurglings that can forward deploy. CSM doesn't have any units that can forward deploy.

If I missed anything, feel free to post too. Anything else, the CSM codex has something similar.

The warp locus deep strike rules makes a Khorne Lord of skulls more interesting as well because it has the warp locus keyword. Turn 1, if there is nothing to shoot, we can move advance a Khorne LOS up to a middle objective. Turn 2, a Khorne bloodletter unit can drop in 6 inches from the LOS and 6 inches from the enemy units.

Also, just having bloodletters that can charge with a 3d6 roll and drop the lowest die is a pretty good deep charge threat.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
If I missed anything, feel free to post too. Anything else, the CSM codex has something similar.

You can include Be'lakor in a Supreme Command unit, deep strike him within 6" of an MoP and potentially 6" from an enemy, which is nice. He's a big beatstick that can't get shot off the table until you intend to bring him to bear. Also, including Be'lakor gives the psykers in your army access to the Noctic discipline according to the Goonhammer preview, even if you're not running the AoR, but it's really more useful to Daemons than to CSM unless you're running the AoR.

There's probably a few other useful things in there if you're willing to pay the CP tax to include them, but I tend to find my CSM lists are pretty starved for CP already. Be'lakor AoR heavy on CSM might be interesting as well, but again, the CP tax comes into play if you want anything from Daemons outside a Supreme Command detachment.

The Warp Locus is the biggest factor for wanting Daemons. Elden pointed out the three things I was looking at for the new codex.

Additionally there's Belakor and he's still a combat beast and durable. Chaos is the Herohammer army I'd argue.

Chaos should be the HeroHammee army

EviscerationPlague wrote:
The Warp Locus is the biggest factor for wanting Daemons. Elden pointed out the three things I was looking at for the new codex.

There's definitely some angles there I suspect. The Be'lakor AoR has some tricks that I think could synergize really well with possessed, specifically with getting them across the board and into your opponent quickly without taking too much fire in the process.

Wreathed in Shades on a possessed unit to prevent them from being shot at unless they are the closest unit could be really good, especially if you're dropping a Daemon unit in front of them. However, the AoR has a lot of unit limitations. The Goonhammer preview mentions Warp Locus on a lot of the special characters, but those can't be included in the AoR. Hopefully it shows up on something like Heralds to provide some additional avenues for that.

I agree regarding the Skull Cannon. I think it would make a great addition to World Eater armies that aren't sure what is going to stay in the book or not.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
The Warp Locus is the biggest factor for wanting Daemons. Elden pointed out the three things I was looking at for the new codex.

There's definitely some angles there I suspect. The Be'lakor AoR has some tricks that I think could synergize really well with possessed, specifically with getting them across the board and into your opponent quickly without taking too much fire in the process.

Wreathed in Shades on a possessed unit to prevent them from being shot at unless they are the closest unit could be really good, especially if you're dropping a Daemon unit in front of them. However, the AoR has a lot of unit limitations. The Goonhammer preview mentions Warp Locus on a lot of the special characters, but those can't be included in the AoR. Hopefully it shows up on something like Heralds to provide some additional avenues for that.

Hard disagree on the AoR. It's just Alpha Legion but worse. Access to the Warp points or whatever ain't worth it compared to just bringing in some meat shields (or rather Daemon Shields).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's also funny you mention the Wreathed In Shades, since Alpha Legion have access to Conceal that does the same thing.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Hard disagree on the AoR. It's just Alpha Legion but worse. Access to the Warp points or whatever ain't worth it compared to just bringing in some meat shields (or rather Daemon Shields).

Honestly, I suspect you're right as that was my first reaction on seeing the rules. I'm kind of holding off final judgement until I've seen all the rules and done some tinkering with lists.

Currently, my plan is to have Be'lakor tag along with some of my pure Daemon armies as that's where I think he'll be most effective. I have a bunch of Tzeentch/Slaanesh Daemons that I've been playing in AoS and the Be'lakor AoR in AoS is very good. However, it's possible, if unlikely, that there may be something interesting that could be cobbled together that I just haven't seen yet with the AoR.

Forgefiend is 160pts for 8 S8 AP2 D2 vs Skull Cannon's average of 5 S8 AP2 D2 for 100pts. Basically 20 points for each S8 shot.

I think once you add in the rest of the rules a Skull Cannon is better, but is it 2 or 3 CP for a detachment better? If you take 3 in a Spearhead it is like martial legacy, 1 CP for each one.

EightFoldPath wrote:
Forgefiend is 160pts for 8 S8 AP2 D2 vs Skull Cannon's average of 5 S8 AP2 D2 for 100pts. Basically 20 points for each S8 shot.

I think once you add in the rest of the rules a Skull Cannon is better, but is it 2 or 3 CP for a detachment better? If you take 3 in a Spearhead it is like martial legacy, 1 CP for each one.

Skull Cannon also ignores cover (so I've heard) which is pretty significant when going up against MEQ, thanks to Armor of Contempt.

Just a quick one guys, building a fun list for a game on Saturday...

Is there any reason why my World Eater Disco Lord couldn't give the plus one to hit on a World Eater Brass Scorpion? Seems to be some good synergy on them, both moving 12 and increasing the output of an expensive model?
Cheers

How much more durable are Forgefiends for the points though? I haven't seen the Skull Cannons defensive stats but it can't be all bad

EviscerationPlague wrote:
How much more durable are Forgefiends for the points though? I haven't seen the Skull Cannons defensive stats but it can't be all bad

Both are T7. But the Skull cannon has daemonic save 4++ against both ranged and melee. Against small arms fire or AP1, the Forgefiend is better due to armor of contempt. Against heavy anti tank weapons that are AP3 or better, then the skull cannon is better.

Also, the Skull cannon is 9W, doesn't degrade. For 200 points , you can have two SC, one on either side of the field laying down crossfire. The forgefiend is 12W for 160 points, and it degrades. So overall, I would definitely say that the Skull Cannon comes out on top here.

Warp Locus and Nurglings was noted earlier, but the Cannon is new. Interesting indeed! CSM also has the Rapier Carrier which is similar, but gets behind when looking at the defensive stats. A Daemon attachment with Nurglings, Cannon(s) and some Troops for a out of the warp charge by a MoP seems nice.

Nurglings also functions brilliant with AL's Conceal. Not news really, but Nurglings got cheaper

Heldrake for preventing opponents getting “behind enemy lines” secondary (or similar e.g. relentless assault for BA), as well as achieving your own secondary like “engage on all fronts”. Waste of time or worthy idea?

Abby is stupidly strong... Do you thing it will be nerfed soon??

Kangarupe wrote:
Heldrake for preventing opponents getting “behind enemy lines” secondary (or similar e.g. relentless assault for BA), as well as achieving your own secondary like “engage on all fronts”. Waste of time or worthy idea?

Possibly. Helldrake opens up interesting options. Its relatively squishy and easy to kill though. The question is whether it would have accomplished enough before it is blown out of the sky. You likely get 1 move, 1 shooting phase and 1 attack phase with it. If you actually survive beyond that, everything else is a bonus. Lots of armies have the fire power to destroy a helldrake in one turn. Unless you present so many other targets that they choose to focus on other stuff first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scactha wrote:
Warp Locus and Nurglings was noted earlier, but the Cannon is new. Interesting indeed! CSM also has the Rapier Carrier which is similar, but gets behind when looking at the defensive stats. A Daemon attachment with Nurglings, Cannon(s) and some Troops for a out of the warp charge by a MoP seems nice.

Nurglings also functions brilliant with AL's Conceal. Not news really, but Nurglings got cheaper

Also, our castors like MOP tend to be so good we want them to focus on casting psychic rather than doing psychic actions. A chaos daemon herald like a Pox bringer or a slanaash herald can perform a psychic action instead. Their psychic tend to be less impactful, and they only have one cast, so its fine to use it on a psychic action instead. And if we are going to be bringing a chaos daemon patrol as allies anyway, then we will tend to bring one of the cheap heralds anyway.

I am of two minds about the greater daemons. I feel that if we start looking at greater daemons, we might as well go full chaos daemon army instead of souping them in. Greater daemons work better in multiples in a monster mash sort of list. One solo greater daemon will likely just get shot off the board because they can't hide anymore (> 18W). Its also a pain to try and fit in a greater daemon within 25% of our PL lol.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
Heldrake for preventing opponents getting “behind enemy lines” secondary (or similar e.g. relentless assault for BA), as well as achieving your own secondary like “engage on all fronts”. Waste of time or worthy idea?

Possibly. Helldrake opens up interesting options. Its relatively squishy and easy to kill though. The question is whether it would have accomplished enough before it is blown out of the sky. You likely get 1 move, 1 shooting phase and 1 attack phase with it. If you actually survive beyond that, everything else is a bonus. Lots of armies have the fire power to destroy a helldrake in one turn. Unless you present so many other targets that they choose to focus on other stuff first.

Interesting…Better suggestion? Raptors or Warp Talons?

My buddy plays his BA and reems me with relentless fury. Tough for me to get my relatively slow moving CSM Black Legion into his deployment zone to prevent the secondary (with not much benefit to me might I add) Killing is seemingly the best option currently but tough with their movement stuff… 😞

If you want to specifically "tailor" to better face his blood angels. I would suggest you play your legion as creations of bile. Then, even if he kills your units, you get to strike back on death and kill him back as well.

Except you cannot kill BA with CSM. Sang guard have 2+ sv. With AP-2 they still save on 3+. Even if you manage to kill one or two one will return with the upgraded sang priest for free.

 p5freak wrote:
Except you cannot kill BA with CSM. Sang guard have 2+ sv. With AP-2 they still save on 3+. Even if you manage to kill one or two one will return with the upgraded sang priest for free.

I played against some BA this weekend, it wasn't a tournament tuned list comp, but I won the game handily, the Sang Guard got beat down. That being said, I was running Emperor's Children, the Sang Guard got beat down by Terminators with Power Fists and Chain Fists and re-roll 1s.

Fighting marines was definitely a slog though, without Power Fists and Chain Fists I don't think I would have done nearly as well.

So I'm nearing completion for my first EC list. ONLY the Sorcerer, MOP, melee Noise, Spawn and Helbrutes to do x.x

Just figured I'd post it here and get feedback. For sure, not by any means a highly competitive or even fully optimized list but seems fun as a general comers list that doesn't feel min/max/gamey either. Just some fun stuff to try out.

Emperor's Children

HQs:

Chaos Lord - Thunder Hammer, Power Fist
Warlord - Faultless Duelest
Mark of Slaanesh
Relic - Thaa'Ris & Rhi'ol

Master of Possession
Warp's Malice (-1CP, Relic), Staff of Possession
Mark of Slaanesh
Spells: Smite, Delightful Agonies, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh

Sorcerer
Bolt Pistol, Force Stave
Relic: Liber Hereticus (-1CP)
Spells: Smite, Delightful Agonies, Diabolic Strength, Warptime

Troops:

Noise Marines
x 9 Marines,
x9 Bolt Pistols/Chain Swords
Champion - Bolt Pistol, Power Fist, Doom Siren
Icon
Relic: Black Rune of the Damned (-1CP)

Noise Marines
x4 Sonic Blasters
x1 Blast Master

Noise Marines
x4 Sonic Blasters
x1 Blast Master

Noise Marines
x4 Sonic Blasters
x1 Blast Master

Elites:

Helbrute
Multi-Melta, Brute Fist w/ Flamer
Mark of Slaanesh

Helbrute
Multi-Melta, Brute Fist w/ Flamer

Fast Attack:

Chaos Spawn
x2

Chaos Spawn
x 2

Heavy Support:

Havocs
2 Las Cannons
2 Missile Launchers
1 Champion
Melta, Chainsword

Havocs
2 Las Cannons
2 Missile Launchers
1 Champion
Melta, Chainsword

Obliterators
x3

2,000pts on the dot, still 9 CP remaining.

Again, mostly a fun list for playing with friends or just random pick up games at the local shop. No powerhouse list and focusing on some less than optimal choices (Such as using melee Noise Marines with the rune instead of the obligatory Termies or Chosen). Going for a 'Smash Lord' instead of a Prince or slotting in Abadon or something silly.

Ranged back field with oblits/havocs and sonic Noise Marines (Who can camp deployment objectives, sonic Noise Marines can move about as needed to snag objectives), charge up with the melee Noise Marines with the Lord, MOP, Sorcerer in tow to be shielded by the Noise lads while buffing them for further survival/ressurection and when close enough, buff the Lord and crash him into the enemy. Helbrutes stomping up the field towards ideal targets, either drawing all sorts of gunfire and (if they survive) bonking things around in melee or melta/flaming them. The Spawn rushing forward to harass or be dealt with or plop on an objective.

Melevolence wrote:
So I'm nearing completion for my first EC list. ONLY the Sorcerer, MOP, melee Noise, Spawn and Helbrutes to do x.x

Just figured I'd post it here and get feedback. For sure, not by any means a highly competitive or even fully optimized list but seems fun as a general comers list that doesn't feel min/max/gamey either. Just some fun stuff to try out.

Should be a fun list, a few things I noted down from the two games I played with them this past weekend.

Leverage that Legion trait, all the things that ignoring penalties to hit entails is larger than you think, it's amazing, for example:
- Power Fists and Chainfists on Terminators - my termie brick was absolutely rockstar in both games, they did so much work it was ridiculous.
- Obliterators firing heavy weapons in melee - usually at -1, no penalty for EC, my second opponent was Orks, he did not appreciate this.
- Advancing with Assault weapons - I had 4x melta/4x flamers on the terminators, Noise Marine squads advance and fire at no penalty was less huge but still very useful.

Liber Hereticus was as good as you'd expect.

The Dark Apostle is annoying, but Blissful Devotion is unfortunately key for EC I think, especially with Honor the Prince. It allowed me to project power with the Terminator squad so much more effectively.

Why Meltas in the Havoc Squads?

TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Melevolence wrote:
So I'm nearing completion for my first EC list. ONLY the Sorcerer, MOP, melee Noise, Spawn and Helbrutes to do x.x

Just figured I'd post it here and get feedback. For sure, not by any means a highly competitive or even fully optimized list but seems fun as a general comers list that doesn't feel min/max/gamey either. Just some fun stuff to try out.

Should be a fun list, a few things I noted down from the two games I played with them this past weekend.

Leverage that Legion trait, all the things that ignoring penalties to hit entails is larger than you think, it's amazing, for example:
- Power Fists and Chainfists on Terminators - my termie brick was absolutely rockstar in both games, they did so much work it was ridiculous.
- Obliterators firing heavy weapons in melee - usually at -1, no penalty for EC, my second opponent was Orks, he did not appreciate this.
- Advancing with Assault weapons - I had 4x melta/4x flamers on the terminators, Noise Marine squads advance and fire at no penalty was less huge but still very useful.

Liber Hereticus was as good as you'd expect.

The Dark Apostle is annoying, but Blissful Devotion is unfortunately key for EC I think, especially with Honor the Prince. It allowed me to project power with the Terminator squad so much more effectively.

Oh, I do plan to abuse the EC modifier ignoring quite a bit. It really is kinda absurd XD. Was why I didn't feel bad giving my Lord a Hammer and Fist since he doesn't care about the -1 on such weapons and gets more attacks with the daemon weapon relic to be quite slappy (in theory). I wanted to find room for a Blast Master in the melee unit just to give them another thing to fire as they just keep running up the board but alas. (Could maybe ditch the meltas off the Havoc Champions but I want them to have SOME sort of use.)

I was tempted to use an Apostle and probably will once I get him assembled and painted, giving me more ways to toy with the army. Still got lots on the 'to do' pile, though this was my first list I wanted to get drummed up.

Liber just seems so good. Three casts and extending their range is just so incredibly useful.

I'm eager to get all these depraved lads on the table as soon as I can

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why Meltas in the Havoc Squads?

It's mainly because I had points left over and it gives the Havoc Champion something to do if an enemy gets close. A bolter won't do much, never been a fan of plasma pistols and flamer is probably always a dud option. But if an enemy deep strikes or manages to get through...yeah, it's just some way to make him not absolutely useless in the unit. I really hate he can't use something more meaningful to be more congruent with the rest of the unit. So weird he can only use shorter ranged weapons.

So yeah...Havoc Champion loadout options are actually trash considering what the rest of the crew is bringing. He gets a tiny gun or melee options in a unit that is all about big guns and not wanting to be in melee.