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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Vatsetis wrote:
After three games Im reaching the point in which my BL Army can deliver a great punch... I just have to learn how to score Nephilin Primaries and Secundaries... Nevertheless Im very happy with the CODEX, its very temathic.

This codex is NOT thematic, it's an inconsistent mess LOL
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Samii wrote:
I've had a high degree of success with a Black Legion 2K MSU-mixed list, so I thought I'd post here. Its unconventional, but it does use a few things I've seen elsewhere.

1) Mobile gunline. This part consists of 2 x 5 man Plague Marine units, with plasma, blight launcher, cleaver, flail, and plasma and power fist on champ; 2 x 5 man Havocs, one with Mark of Slaanesh, all lascannons and one unmarked with 2 x lascannons and 2 x autocannons; a Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch, wings and sword; Exalted Champ who gets the Eternal Vendetta and Trusted War Leader traits through strat; and finally a 10 man Legionnaire unit with Mark of Tzeentch, balefire tome, autocannon and heavy bolter.

Everything starts out of sight and jumps out to shoot. I spend 5 command points on the Legionnaires: one for daemon shell, one for remain stationary and one to turn them into Emperor's Children, finally two to shoot twice. With Eternal Vendetta its a mini hail of doom and has deleted a number of big things including: Silent King, 3 x Redemptors, 2 x Tank Commanders, 9 Leviathan Tyranid Warriors etc. It can get perfect angles and board coverage with warp time (from Prince), who can then do a psychic action with strat. Alternatively, I spend the last command point to get two extra hits from the lascannon Havocs, or to Veterans Rubrics (see below). The Plague Marines and Havocs lay down a hail of suppressive fire, with rerolls from Prince and Champ. If the mobile gunline gets charged or shot at its resilient enough for most things to bounce, and it then gets counterpunched by melee Plague Marines, Prince and Champ. I keep Diabolic Strength in the block somewhere, to put on Exalted Champ, or a cleaver Plague Marine.

2) Harrying units. This is a 10 man Rubric unit, all with flamers in a Rhino; 8 man bike unit with Mark of Khorne, fist on Champ and flamers; Venomcrawler and Heldrake. The Rubrics hop out of Rhino, potentially warp time and can flame a unit, I can Veterans them if I don't do a couple of the previous things (Havocs extra hits + psychic action etc.). Once they're out of the Rhino, it can taxi the Plague Marines later. The bikes are there for chaff clearance, counter charging, can deny with the Khorne strat and Despoil Dominions. Venomcrawler adds psychic support, a little shooting and counter charging. Similar for the Heldrake, but that also gives me anti-flyer, in addition to the Prince, and options for move blocking.

3) Action units. 2 x 10 man Cultist units. These move in behind the others for Banners, Despoil Dominions etc.

Some things about the list.

Its tougher than it looks. Units are small, can be hidden easily and there is a lot of models, making it possible to block out flyers and deep strikes. After the mini-hail of doom, Rubrics, Havocs and other elements have shot, the return fire is minimized and has to be spread quite thin. Everything is either/and/or T5, Disgustingly Resilient or potential for equivalent, has Mark of Nurgle, has Mark of Tzeentch, can get 4++ and has Armour of Contempt etc., so there are no easy targets except the Cultists, which are often ignored. The army leans a bit into territory usually associated with Marines, shooting, mobility but can deliver a very nasty melee counterpunch and has decent psychic defense.

It runs counter to the idea of having a big, immobile Terminator brick which is slow and lacks damage output without character support, instead it relies on distributed, high damage output, hard to kill units that force the opponent to split attention. The characters are there to enhance damage output across the board, rather than focusing on buffing one big unit and are able to do some damage in melee, psychic and shooting.

Objectives. I usually take Despoil Dominions, Bring it Down/No Prisoners, and one of the psychic ones, depending on opponent. So far, I've found that the damage output, versatility and mobility of the list has totally offset the weaker faction secondary's. One of two things happen: 1) the list pulls ahead early and the opponent can't recover easily 2) both armies bounce a bit and get pulled into a slow grind, where the Despoil Dominions objective helps as it can deny opponent's actions and can be performed by the Bikes.

Best,
Samii.

And apologies for the giant post


Thanks a lot for the Legionaire Trick. I'm a big fan of huge legionaire blobs with Iron Warriors in 8th edition with veterans and endless cacophony. And I couldn't think of a tactic to make them as good as in the old edition.

Could you post your full list. Like with battlescribe export. That would be much easier to grasp like where you stuffed Diabolic Strength or what you give the Legionaires as a psychic power.

What would Wally the World Eater do? 
   
Made in es
Dakka Veteran




EviscerationPlague wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
After three games Im reaching the point in which my BL Army can deliver a great punch... I just have to learn how to score Nephilin Primaries and Secundaries... Nevertheless Im very happy with the CODEX, its very temathic.

This codex is NOT thematic, it's an inconsistent mess LOL


Well we have a different POV, surely yours has more weight, Im rather a rookie into 40K.
   
Made in ie
Been Around the Block




Fip wrote:
Samii wrote:
I've had a high degree of success with a Black Legion 2K MSU-mixed list, so I thought I'd post here. Its unconventional, but it does use a few things I've seen elsewhere.

1) Mobile gunline. This part consists of 2 x 5 man Plague Marine units, with plasma, blight launcher, cleaver, flail, and plasma and power fist on champ; 2 x 5 man Havocs, one with Mark of Slaanesh, all lascannons and one unmarked with 2 x lascannons and 2 x autocannons; a Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch, wings and sword; Exalted Champ who gets the Eternal Vendetta and Trusted War Leader traits through strat; and finally a 10 man Legionnaire unit with Mark of Tzeentch, balefire tome, autocannon and heavy bolter.

Everything starts out of sight and jumps out to shoot. I spend 5 command points on the Legionnaires: one for daemon shell, one for remain stationary and one to turn them into Emperor's Children, finally two to shoot twice. With Eternal Vendetta its a mini hail of doom and has deleted a number of big things including: Silent King, 3 x Redemptors, 2 x Tank Commanders, 9 Leviathan Tyranid Warriors etc. It can get perfect angles and board coverage with warp time (from Prince), who can then do a psychic action with strat. Alternatively, I spend the last command point to get two extra hits from the lascannon Havocs, or to Veterans Rubrics (see below). The Plague Marines and Havocs lay down a hail of suppressive fire, with rerolls from Prince and Champ. If the mobile gunline gets charged or shot at its resilient enough for most things to bounce, and it then gets counterpunched by melee Plague Marines, Prince and Champ. I keep Diabolic Strength in the block somewhere, to put on Exalted Champ, or a cleaver Plague Marine.

2) Harrying units. This is a 10 man Rubric unit, all with flamers in a Rhino; 8 man bike unit with Mark of Khorne, fist on Champ and flamers; Venomcrawler and Heldrake. The Rubrics hop out of Rhino, potentially warp time and can flame a unit, I can Veterans them if I don't do a couple of the previous things (Havocs extra hits + psychic action etc.). Once they're out of the Rhino, it can taxi the Plague Marines later. The bikes are there for chaff clearance, counter charging, can deny with the Khorne strat and Despoil Dominions. Venomcrawler adds psychic support, a little shooting and counter charging. Similar for the Heldrake, but that also gives me anti-flyer, in addition to the Prince, and options for move blocking.

3) Action units. 2 x 10 man Cultist units. These move in behind the others for Banners, Despoil Dominions etc.

Some things about the list.

Its tougher than it looks. Units are small, can be hidden easily and there is a lot of models, making it possible to block out flyers and deep strikes. After the mini-hail of doom, Rubrics, Havocs and other elements have shot, the return fire is minimized and has to be spread quite thin. Everything is either/and/or T5, Disgustingly Resilient or potential for equivalent, has Mark of Nurgle, has Mark of Tzeentch, can get 4++ and has Armour of Contempt etc., so there are no easy targets except the Cultists, which are often ignored. The army leans a bit into territory usually associated with Marines, shooting, mobility but can deliver a very nasty melee counterpunch and has decent psychic defense.

It runs counter to the idea of having a big, immobile Terminator brick which is slow and lacks damage output without character support, instead it relies on distributed, high damage output, hard to kill units that force the opponent to split attention. The characters are there to enhance damage output across the board, rather than focusing on buffing one big unit and are able to do some damage in melee, psychic and shooting.

Objectives. I usually take Despoil Dominions, Bring it Down/No Prisoners, and one of the psychic ones, depending on opponent. So far, I've found that the damage output, versatility and mobility of the list has totally offset the weaker faction secondary's. One of two things happen: 1) the list pulls ahead early and the opponent can't recover easily 2) both armies bounce a bit and get pulled into a slow grind, where the Despoil Dominions objective helps as it can deny opponent's actions and can be performed by the Bikes.

Best,
Samii.

And apologies for the giant post


Thanks a lot for the Legionaire Trick. I'm a big fan of huge legionaire blobs with Iron Warriors in 8th edition with veterans and endless cacophony. And I couldn't think of a tactic to make them as good as in the old edition.

Could you post your full list. Like with battlescribe export. That would be much easier to grasp like where you stuffed Diabolic Strength or what you give the Legionaires as a psychic power.


The list has gone through a couple of iterations: I'll update shortly with the most recent one.
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




EviscerationPlague wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
After three games Im reaching the point in which my BL Army can deliver a great punch... I just have to learn how to score Nephilin Primaries and Secundaries... Nevertheless Im very happy with the CODEX, its very temathic.

This codex is NOT thematic, it's an inconsistent mess LOL


But with so many conflicting rules spread everywhere with faqs and 9th edition rules and jetpacks non existent and halve the stuff maybe an Accursed weapon or otherwise loaded out instead of looking and no rules for fallen or poor lord Kranon they at least achieved one thing for sure - CHAOS REIGNS on the battlefields!!!111

CHAOS REIGNS so much a friend, who always explained all rules and new faqs to us and understood everything, stopped playing till they hopefully manage to get a consistent 10th edition rules book out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey all,
I have several questions.

First one, with bringers of despair i am eglible to fight and fight first. Can I use that to consolidate into a unit near me, when i m not in Combat and fight every unit i consolidated into?
So , can I warp time my terminators next to an enemy unit after they have advanced and then use bringers of despairs stratagem to drag them into a fight?

Second one,
does liber hereticus expand range of cursed earth to bIt mentions that I only affects the first named range, and in cursed earth that is the first and only mentioned range.

Third one,
I want to bring my terminators in 9 inch away from enemies. Can I sacrifice one with master of possession to revive him closer to the enemy? Guess that is possible and would be super strong as it would be a 6 Inc charge then.

Fourth one,
having lots of trouble with flying hive tyrants, walki ghive tryant, Warriors and exocrine leviathan build. What would be your suggestions to kill those nasty bugs and their wound of 1 to 3 auto fails with mortal wounds spam behind them the warriors to kill my dudes?

Thanks for your answers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/26 18:42:39


What would Wally the World Eater do? 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Fip wrote:


Second one,
does liber hereticus expand range of cursed earth to bIt mentions that I only affects the first named range, and in cursed earth that is the first and only mentioned range.


No, people were trying to do this, and it was recently faq'd to clarify that the range of the power is self and it generates a 6" aura which does not qualify for the Liber range extension.

Fip wrote:

Third one,
I want to bring my terminators in 9 inch away from enemies. Can I sacrifice one with master of possession to revive him closer to the enemy? Guess that is possible and would be super strong as it would be a 6 Inc charge then.


Yes this works, just remember that the MoP can only use Sacrifical Dagger on Malefic Discipline powers so it cannot be used on smite or god specific powers granted by taking a mark.

Not sure on the others, so leaving those for someone with a stronger grasp to answer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/27 00:25:35


 
   
Made in ca
Waaagh! Warbiker





EviscerationPlague wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
After three games Im reaching the point in which my BL Army can deliver a great punch... I just have to learn how to score Nephilin Primaries and Secundaries... Nevertheless Im very happy with the CODEX, its very temathic.

This codex is NOT thematic, it's an inconsistent mess LOL


You might call it.... Chaotic? Ba Dum Tss...........

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/27 02:34:11


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Fip wrote:

First one, with bringers of despair i am eglible to fight and fight first. Can I use that to consolidate into a unit near me, when i m not in Combat and fight every unit i consolidated into?
So , can I warp time my terminators next to an enemy unit after they have advanced and then use bringers of despairs stratagem to drag them into a fight?


What makes you think you are eligible to fight and fight first with bringers of despair ? And btw, you cannot use any specialist detachments in nachmund or nephilim GT.
   
Made in gb
Boosting Space Marine Biker




UK

 p5freak wrote:
Fip wrote:

First one, with bringers of despair i am eglible to fight and fight first. Can I use that to consolidate into a unit near me, when i m not in Combat and fight every unit i consolidated into?
So , can I warp time my terminators next to an enemy unit after they have advanced and then use bringers of despairs stratagem to drag them into a fight?


What makes you think you are eligible to fight and fight first with bringers of despair ? And btw, you cannot use any specialist detachments in nachmund or nephilim GT.

Page 80, Black Legion strat - unit within 3" can fight and fights first, no specialist detachment stuff required.

Warp time only prevents making a charge move, so currently no reason why this wouldn't work. It would be better used on a fast unit like possessed though to get a bigger move out of warp time when something like confluence of traitors (for red corsairs) would give a similar result on terminators.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

I see. I was thinking about the specialist detachment bringers of despair. The stratagem would work with warptime.
   
Made in de
Hellacious Havoc




The Realm of Hungry Ghosts

Regarding this:
 Insularum wrote:
It would be better used on a fast unit like possessed though to get a bigger move out of warp time when something like confluence of traitors (for red corsairs) would give a similar result on terminators.


The strat is specifically for BL Termies, so using it on Possessed isn't a thing. As juicy as that would be.

Bharring wrote:
At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
 
   
Made in gb
Boosting Space Marine Biker




UK

Snugiraffe wrote:
Regarding this:
 Insularum wrote:
It would be better used on a fast unit like possessed though to get a bigger move out of warp time when something like confluence of traitors (for red corsairs) would give a similar result on terminators.


The strat is specifically for BL Termies, so using it on Possessed isn't a thing. As juicy as that would be.
Went to the effort of finding it, then didn't check who could use it

In reality I doubt many people will ever get to use this strat in the manner suggested - it's played in the opponents turn so even with warptime it does not prevent opponents from moving away from units. It is a good trick to keep up your sleeve though if using a brick of terminators as using them as movement blockers is pretty much what they are there for.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





So, Chaos Daemons codex is out, and we can bring them as long as they are not more than 25% of our army power level. What do they bring to the table?
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

How does that rule translate if we're not using Power Level?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How does that rule translate if we're not using Power Level?

You still use it anyway, which is why it's stupid
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Oh that is stupid.

Kan'll be happy, but the rest of us will have to deal with this nonsense.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How does that rule translate if we're not using Power Level?


You houserule it to no more than 25% of points.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 p5freak wrote:
You houserule it to no more than 25% of points.
Right, so, "It doesn't" is the answer to my question then.

Well done GW.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in es
Dakka Veteran




BS gives you points and PL... Dividing 100 (+- 5) in 4 is not that difficult.

Spoiler... Its 25 (+-1)!!!
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






It’s been a while, but weren’t previous editions summoning rules governed by PL as well?

Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




What you are actually looking to do is to inflate the PL of your CSM so you can take less than 1500 points of them and take more Daemons.

E.g. 5 Legionaries are 6 PL, 6 Legionaries are 12 PL, 5 Terminators are 9 PL, 6 Terminators are 18 PL.

So, 3 x 6 Legionaries and 3 x 6 Terminators is 918 points, which is normally roughly 46 PL, but is now 90 PL. So you should be able to fill up on Daemons for the rest of your army.

You might not need to go that over the top, but should be able to get 600/700 points of Daemons for 25% PL if you are sneaky about it.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





But in the first place, what do Daemons bring to the table for CSM? What might be worth a CSM army spending 2 CP to bring a Daemon patrol in the first place?

Hard to kill character beatstick (like an exalted greater daemon? CSM has Abaddon, Daemon Princes and Lord Discordant.

Cheap troops? Actually Daemon troops aren't a horde army anymore, they all went up in points. Our troop choices are now cheaper than Daemons. We got two varieties of cultists that are both cheaper than Daemon troops.

Melee? CSM has strong melee too.

Shooting? CSM has shooting too, and Daemons have never really been known as a very shooty army.
   
Made in es
Dakka Veteran




Eldenfirefly wrote:
But in the first place, what do Daemons bring to the table for CSM? What might be worth a CSM army spending 2 CP to bring a Daemon patrol in the first place?

Hard to kill character beatstick (like an exalted greater daemon? CSM has Abaddon, Daemon Princes and Lord Discordant.

Cheap troops? Actually Daemon troops aren't a horde army anymore, they all went up in points. Our troop choices are now cheaper than Daemons. We got two varieties of cultists that are both cheaper than Daemon troops.

Melee? CSM has strong melee too.

Shooting? CSM has shooting too, and Daemons have never really been known as a very shooty army.


Thats why I make the question in the first place.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

We have to wait and see what daemons can do. Abaddon is slow, daemon princes are expensive, disco lords cant fly.
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How does that rule translate if we're not using Power Level?


Umm...Same way? You still have power level.

In case you haven't noticed PL's are used in matched play...Term "strategic reserves" ring a bell?

2022 painted/bought: 681/867 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I'm now very confused about this additional Daemon thing.

Can a non-aligned army take a Daemon detachment? The way Tabletop Tactics described it, it was Khorne with WE, Slaanesh with EC, Tzeentch with 1KSons, Nurgle with DG, and that's it.

I must be missing something.

tneva82 wrote:
In case you haven't noticed PL's are used in matched play...Term "strategic reserves" ring a bell?
And why do we put up with that? Mixing systems is stupid. It should be either/or, not kinda sorta both, but only in specific circumstances where we forgot to write rules.


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




You can bring a daemon detachment with your Word Bearers or Alpha Legion.

The difference is it doesn't have to be mono god Daemons, so WB, AL, NL, etc get it better than TS, DG, etc.

And the one good thing the new Daemon codex does, is it lets you take mixed Daemon detachments.

You lose very little by doing this, especially in soup.

This means you can take a Daemon patrol of Khorne DP, 10 Daemonettes, 6 Flamers. This unlocks all Khorne/Slaanesh/Tzeentch daemon strategems (but you are lucky if each individual unit can use 2 strategems each so it isn't as OP sounding as you might first think).

A mono god daemon detachment seems to only unlock:
Warp Storm Table for that god (which soup doesn't get).
Warlord traits (because you only get one warlord trait for the whole daemon army).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/08/30 21:37:19


 
   
Made in se
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk





Eldenfirefly wrote:
But in the first place, what do Daemons bring to the table for CSM? What might be worth a CSM army spending 2 CP to bring a Daemon patrol in the first place?
Short answer: Warp Locus.

The longer answer is Daemon Reinforcements that can enter and charge from shorter ranges, thus reaching their target with greater reliability and being safe "transported" there. Master of Possessions Warp Locus keyword basically allows you to cut down deploy distance from the enemy to 6", but it can be even shorter.

Another thing is infiltration. 20 points Nurglings (-1 to hit and T3 now) is a great screen and speedbump. Sure they can´t do actions nor be ObSec, but forcing opponents hand by starting the game on top of 2 objectives for 200 points (2x5 bases) is an impressive strategical advantage imho.

Atm I´m thinking a Patrol of Nurglings, Plaguebearers and a Scrivener (+1 to hit and extra ObSec for PB)
   
Made in es
Dakka Veteran




Thanks... MOP for the Win!!
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





 Scactha wrote:
Short answer: Warp Locus.

The longer answer is Daemon Reinforcements that can enter and charge from shorter ranges, thus reaching their target with greater reliability and being safe "transported" there. Master of Possessions Warp Locus keyword basically allows you to cut down deploy distance from the enemy to 6", but it can be even shorter.

Another thing is infiltration. 20 points Nurglings (-1 to hit and T3 now) is a great screen and speedbump. Sure they can´t do actions nor be ObSec, but forcing opponents hand by starting the game on top of 2 objectives for 200 points (2x5 bases) is an impressive strategical advantage imho.


Strangely the MoP is still unavailable for purchase. Most CSM players probably picked up 1 or 2 when they were available (I know I did), but CSM is an army that's really unfriendly to new players given its complexity and the bizarrely slow roll model support from GW.

I think the Be'lakor AoR may be where the soup is really made, especially if as indicated it keeps most of its current rules.

Souping in Be'lakor as a Supreme Commander may be the easiest option for bringing along a Daemon contingent. Obviously he synergizes very well with Night Lords. However, Daemons currently lose a lot of their summoning tricks when souped, although dropping at 6" is still a significant improvement.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/29 13:24:10


"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
 
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