Thariinye wrote: They haven't been released yet - in fact none of the revealed new CSM models have been released generally. That's the Dark Commune, the new Cultists + Accursed Cultists, the new Possessed, or even the base CSM + Kill Team Sprue (those guys should be dropping for preorder this Saturday). The new DP is probably coming out near the end of this year with the AoS Slaves to Darkness book (presumably with a revised 40k datasheet) and we heard rumors of new Bikers but those models haven't even been revealed yet.
It's the only codex in 9th AFAIK where the models weren't at least available for pre-order. Honestly, this has been one of their worst codex launches of the edition, the only reason it's not worse is due to a fairly mature and well established player base. A lot of chaos players can probably field relatively decent proxies for most of the new units, at the very least.
Thariinye wrote: They haven't been released yet - in fact none of the revealed new CSM models have been released generally. That's the Dark Commune, the new Cultists + Accursed Cultists, the new Possessed, or even the base CSM + Kill Team Sprue (those guys should be dropping for preorder this Saturday). The new DP is probably coming out near the end of this year with the AoS Slaves to Darkness book (presumably with a revised 40k datasheet) and we heard rumors of new Bikers but those models haven't even been revealed yet.
Apparently one of the guys doing rule reviews (I think it was Auspex) said that he was surprised that Huron wasn't released, which means he had info on it.
While there are Huron Rumours due to a Rumour Engine that could be his Claw, I am quite sure the Content Creator you mean has adressed something else:
The current (and ancient) Sculpt was rotated out from the Shop about a half year ago. It was not rotated back in to the range, although Huron received an reworked Profile in the new book. So the CC meant propably the rerelease of the old sculpt. Considering GW‘s ,No Model no rules‘ policy this is really weird
Edit: What are so far your experiences with different Legions? I has a game vs EC recently and the Fight First as well as additional rend were quite an issue when approaching them in Meele. I am also undecided whether to build mine as World Eaters or Red Corsairs. The WE trait consists of only 1 Perk while Corsairs bring 2 very solid perks and a broad access to unit and mark selection. Both factions bring usefull strats and relics. To be honest WE feel a bit lackluster: No access to the good psychic phase sheningans of the faction, limited anti psychic phase shenanigans. Biggest Stand Out are Khorne Berserker as Battleline
Thariinye wrote: They haven't been released yet - in fact none of the revealed new CSM models have been released generally. That's the Dark Commune, the new Cultists + Accursed Cultists, the new Possessed, or even the base CSM + Kill Team Sprue (those guys should be dropping for preorder this Saturday). The new DP is probably coming out near the end of this year with the AoS Slaves to Darkness book (presumably with a revised 40k datasheet) and we heard rumors of new Bikers but those models haven't even been revealed yet.
Apparently one of the guys doing rule reviews (I think it was Auspex) said that he was surprised that Huron wasn't released, which means he had info on it.
While there are Huron Rumours due to a Rumour Engine that could be his Claw, I am quite sure the Content Creator you mean has adressed something else:
The current (and ancient) Sculpt was rotated out from the Shop about a half year ago. It was not rotated back in to the range, although Huron received an reworked Profile in the new book. So the CC meant propably the rerelease of the old sculpt. Considering GW‘s ,No Model no rules‘ policy this is really weird
Edit: What are so far your experiences with different Legions? I has a game vs EC recently and the Fight First as well as additional rend were quite an issue when approaching them in Meele. I am also undecided whether to build mine as World Eaters or Red Corsairs. The WE trait consists of only 1 Perk while Corsairs bring 2 very solid perks and a broad access to unit and mark selection. Both factions bring usefull strats and relics. To be honest WE feel a bit lackluster: No access to the good psychic phase sheningans of the faction, limited anti psychic phase shenanigans. Biggest Stand Out are Khorne Berserker as Battleline
Personally I don't think WE will be very good until they get their own codex later this year or early next year. If I was you I would probably do RC for now. Also think about Word Bearers. I am using WB now for my melee focuses army and the legion trait and relics are money. You would think the MW protection is situational but it has been good in every game with mitigating explosions, perils etc, and it is great when the opponent brings a mortal wound heavy army like GK or TS. The re-reroll hits first turn is really good as well.
What’s the best way to handle walkers and other vehicles? I know the general answer is “punch them with possessed”, but it doesn’t seem like we have a reliable armor deleter at a good price point.
Rivener wrote: What’s the best way to handle walkers and other vehicles? I know the general answer is “punch them with possessed”, but it doesn’t seem like we have a reliable armor deleter at a good price point.
I like Maulerfiends. Not sure how good they'd be at this role, but I like them.
Rivener wrote: What’s the best way to handle walkers and other vehicles? I know the general answer is “punch them with possessed”, but it doesn’t seem like we have a reliable armor deleter at a good price point.
We have a wide selection of units that can punch vehicles to death, but I'm not seeing anything efficient for shooting them at long range. Really our only units focused entirely on shooting (and not paying points for other things) are havocs and predators, and they're... okay. I think we get our anti-tank firepower most efficiently when it's tacked onto units that are also doing other things like MM helbrutes, bikers or terminators with combi-meltas, noise marine blastmasters, etc. So my plan is to take some of those and pick off vehicles where I can, but that the real answer to any vehicle-heavy list has to be getting into melee with them. I might put MoS on my disco lord so he can do 8 damage with his magma cutter (via Murderous Perfection), but that's only barely not melee.
p5freak wrote: We have Oblits, Land Raiders, Vindicators, Defilers, Forgefiends for lonf range anti tank.
I really want defilers to be a thing but I feel like their output is pretty meh for how much they cost. Would have been cool if they got the soulshatter for their lascannons. Kinda funny tho. I dont think that lascannons are even in the kit so why do they have the option.
I like oblits cause I feel like they are more durable with buffs and can be rezzed in a pinch.
Vindicators and Oblits still only have 24" range.
If you playing ECMSU emp children with blastmasters is the ticket for sure.
I do like what was brought up earlier with full squad of bikes with tzeench and full rerolls. as a anti everything option.
Honestly like I wonder if you can make a list with a few of these elements for a very shooty and aggressive comp. Noise marines Tz Bikes and Abaddon.
I have 3 Helbrutes with 2x Fists/Flamers I intend to try out as EC. Threat range of 18+d6", creative use of cover and movement could get it close enough to use that, strike first in melee, S12/-3/3 with the EC legion trait, it might do some work. Sadly, they're not magnetized, so I'm stuck with that loadout, which isn't horrible with Burn the Galaxy, but I've been trying to find places to use them for awhile now.
I'll give GW this, the new codex and the fact they finally delivered on WE codex got me to keep my EC stuff.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: I have 3 Helbrutes with 2x Fists/Flamers I intend to try out as EC. Threat range of 18+d6", creative use of cover and movement could get it close enough to use that, strike first in melee, S12/-3/3 with the EC legion trait, it might do some work. Sadly, they're not magnetized, so I'm stuck with that loadout, which isn't horrible with Burn the Galaxy, but I've been trying to find places to use them for awhile now.
I'll give GW this, the new codex and the fact they finally delivered on WE codex got me to keep my EC stuff.
kerbarian wrote: I really want to like Helbrutes and they’re not bad, but Venomcrawlers do basically all the same things and are twice as fast.
Venomcrawlers are cheaper, for sure, the psyker bonus is nice, and their melee/shooting is pretty solid. They need an MoP and/or an LD to really shine I think.
Helbrutes are Core, so they can get Marks, between those two things it opens them up for a lot of active and passive buff options. Not sure Helbrutes are better, but I have them already, want to experiment with them. With fists/flamers they're 6 attacks, always strike first, get 2d6+4 Heavy Flamer shots, even in melee. Core/Mark also opens up a few additional stratagems for them also, situational, but possibly useful.
Does anyone have an idea what to do with the units not included in the codex? So Cultist Firebrand and the whole Traitor Guard range? As far as I can see, there are no rules. Sure, you can use them as Cultists, but that falls a bit short and some units don't really fit there, like the Commissioner, Ogryn or the Beastmen.
Rivener wrote: What’s the best way to handle walkers and other vehicles? I know the general answer is “punch them with possessed”, but it doesn’t seem like we have a reliable armor deleter at a good price point.
We have a wide selection of units that can punch vehicles to death, but I'm not seeing anything efficient for shooting them at long range. Really our only units focused entirely on shooting (and not paying points for other things) are havocs and predators, and they're... okay. I think we get our anti-tank firepower most efficiently when it's tacked onto units that are also doing other things like MM helbrutes, bikers or terminators with combi-meltas, noise marine blastmasters, etc. So my plan is to take some of those and pick off vehicles where I can, but that the real answer to any vehicle-heavy list has to be getting into melee with them. I might put MoS on my disco lord so he can do 8 damage with his magma cutter (via Murderous Perfection), but that's only barely not melee.
I still have 3 or 4 proxies for Rapier Carrier with Laser Destroyers. Use a warpsmith or Chaos Lord to help with accuracy/buffs/healing I think they can do ok for popping heavies and figure they compete ok with Havocs for 115 points.
Rivener wrote: What’s the best way to handle walkers and other vehicles? I know the general answer is “punch them with possessed”, but it doesn’t seem like we have a reliable armor deleter at a good price point.
We have a wide selection of units that can punch vehicles to death, but I'm not seeing anything efficient for shooting them at long range. Really our only units focused entirely on shooting (and not paying points for other things) are havocs and predators, and they're... okay. I think we get our anti-tank firepower most efficiently when it's tacked onto units that are also doing other things like MM helbrutes, bikers or terminators with combi-meltas, noise marine blastmasters, etc. So my plan is to take some of those and pick off vehicles where I can, but that the real answer to any vehicle-heavy list has to be getting into melee with them. I might put MoS on my disco lord so he can do 8 damage with his magma cutter (via Murderous Perfection), but that's only barely not melee.
I still have 3 or 4 proxies for Rapier Carrier with Laser Destroyers. Use a warpsmith or Chaos Lord to help with accuracy/buffs/healing I think they can do ok for popping heavies and figure they compete ok with Havocs for 115 points.
Ive been wanting to run the Vindicator with the laser destroyer but its just too expensive. You mentioning the rapier reminded me. Same gun essentialy for pretty cheap. Kinda blows it takes up a whole HS slot but what is interesting is it is a vehicle with a small base so you can easily hide behind cover move 4 and pop whatever is threating you. I might have to go print some.
Xeldaan wrote: Does anyone have an idea what to do with the units not included in the codex? So Cultist Firebrand and the whole Traitor Guard range? As far as I can see, there are no rules. Sure, you can use them as Cultists, but that falls a bit short and some units don't really fit there, like the Commissioner, Ogryn or the Beastmen.
Ogryn and Beastmen sound like they'd be great as Accursed Cultists. Maybe you could make a Dark Commune out of some officers? I agree that the options aren't great, though.
Anybody looked hard at Berserkers yet? Generally speaking cult troops don’t do much for me, but at the price point they’re still pretty good. 240 gets you 10, and they clock in at 5 WS3 S6 AP-3 attacks on the charge.
Chosen are probably better on the whole, giving up an attack for an additional wound, but it all depends if you want kill, or maximum kill.
Rivener wrote: Anybody looked hard at Berserkers yet? Generally speaking cult troops don’t do much for me, but at the price point they’re still pretty good. 240 gets you 10, and they clock in at 5 WS3 S6 AP-3 attacks on the charge.
Chosen are probably better on the whole, giving up an attack for an additional wound, but it all depends if you want kill, or maximum kill.
The problem is and has always been the same. How are you gonna deliver them. Being Khorne makes them ineligible for the advance and charge chant and several other movement mechanics. Warp time no longer allows you to charge. Best you can likely do is make them Corsairs, maybe a dreadclaw/termite, etc.
Rivener wrote: Anybody looked hard at Berserkers yet? Generally speaking cult troops don’t do much for me, but at the price point they’re still pretty good. 240 gets you 10, and they clock in at 5 WS3 S6 AP-3 attacks on the charge.
Chosen are probably better on the whole, giving up an attack for an additional wound, but it all depends if you want kill, or maximum kill.
The problem is and has always been the same. How are you gonna deliver them. Being Khorne makes them ineligible for the advance and charge chant and several other movement mechanics. Warp time no longer allows you to charge. Best you can likely do is make them Corsairs, maybe a dreadclaw/termite, etc.
Making them Corsairs won't matter since Cult Marines won't get the rules of the Legions in this codex. So, no advancing and charging.
Beserker Marines are definitely in a bad state since Chosen can do everything they can with similar attacks and are just shooting better too. We'd basically have to wait for the actual Berserker Marine kit that's meant to go with the World Eater codex so that there's some options.
Honestly really feeling Noise marines atm. They a little pricy but not by that much and kinda check all the boxes.
I really cant get over that fact that blast masters are 3 shots and that EC suffer no penalties to hit.
Being abl e to move and shoot heavy with no penalty, advance and fire assault, or Being able to hit with fists with no penalty is SOOOOO NOICE.
Current list looks soemthing like
1 DP Daemon weapon
1 Sorc warptime, Liber Hereticus
1 Priest
10 Terms max Fists and combimelta/plas Rune
2 Hellbrutes fist and MM 4x5 Noise Marines with fist and BM
1 Spider
2 Laser Rapiers
Put the list together to test out some of the ideas that have been bouncing around in here. But I honestly want to cut more things for more noise marines. Terms can advance warp time up the board with delightful agonies and still fire their weapons with no penalties I think, which if true is kinda insane XD.
I either wanna add more noise marines or stuff that can abuse this no modifiers to hit (If I could give the TermSorc a FORCEFIST I would). I feel like EC has alot of legs. Not really digging thier relics tho.
Kinda wanna run a maxed out squad of Chaos Spawn. I need to figure out exactly how annoying it is to shoot at. Because they gonna do quite a bit of damage and opponent will have to decided whether they wanna shoot at the spawn or the terms.
I do love the rules for them. Plus the new HH marines with Emperor's Children extras look amazing.
If only the sonic weapons weren't hideous.
Massed Bolter noise marines feels like a waste, though maybe I could get away with volkite weapons as 'counts as' since they don't exist in 40k?
If only the sonic weapons weren't hideous.
Massed Bolter noise marines feels like a waste, though maybe I could get away with volkite weapons as 'counts as' since they don't exist in 40k?
On the Noise Marines I'm currently making I'm using the Rubric Marine Flamers with the fluid tank and lighter cut off. I then add some guitar wire to make cables going from the weapon to a suitable spot on the Noise Marine to represent some added mechanical soundshenanigans. The end result to me looks like a fine shrieking weapon which might or might not be plugged in to the Marine's mouth grill for added decibels.
Edit: Just to make my post at least a little bit on topic how do you guys rate a unit of 5 Raptors with 3 plasma pistols and 2 Meltaguns in an EC army? My fear is that they might be too squishy to get any use out of them but I do like the notion of including a fast moving unit capable of scaring anything heavily armoured while also being capable of duking it out in melee if need be.
Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.
Speaking of which, I don’t get the Dark Commune. Seems that only the priest is a character, so in terms of price you’re getting a limited priest, an effortless to kill psyker, and some random dudes that’ll die to bolters. With only three HQ slots and over a dozen spells and prayers to use, that feels kind of silly.
Rivener wrote: Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.
Noise Marines can do a lot of damage at range. Their new blast master is so much better than a lascannon. Its just 15 points and it has 2 profiles. The anti-tank profile is 48 inches range, Heavy 3, Str 8, AP 3, Damage 3. That is an extremely good long range anti-tank profile for just 15 points. And if you go 6 min 5 man squads of noise marines, you can have 6 of these blast masters. That's 18 shots at range 48 inches that do flat 3 damage each. Also its a sonic weapon, so if you get within half range (which is 24 inches for this), add 1 damage. So that's 4 damage at half range!!!
Rivener wrote: Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.
Noise Marines can do a lot of damage at range. Their new blast master is so much better than a lascannon. Its just 15 points and it has 2 profiles. The anti-tank profile is 48 inches range, Heavy 3, Str 8, AP 3, Damage 3. That is an extremely good long range anti-tank profile for just 15 points. And if you go 6 min 5 man squads of noise marines, you can have 6 of these blast masters. That's 18 shots at range 48 inches that do flat 3 damage each. Also its a sonic weapon, so if you get within half range (which is 24 inches for this), add 1 damage. So that's 4 damage at half range!!!
That’s 140 points though. Havocs are 5 more for four lascannons, or four chaincannons, along with T5, and they benefit from legion traits. Even at 12” the Havocs outperform against MEQ, so I can’t help but think noise marines are more of an “EC only” pick.
After trying out a couple of games all of which are in black legion, I notice there are a few traps in CSM. Don't fall into these, whether during the list building stage or during the game.
1. Don't try and build some mega buffed up legionaire squad. This simply isn't efficient. You will end up going to 10 men, and putting mark and icon, and end up spending 200 points on a unit that will only do half as a 200 point unit of Khorne berserkers, or Khorne Chosen, or Possessed. I don't care that legionaires have better strategem support, if you used a unit that was actually very good at its job, you wouldn't need to spend the CP anyway.
2. This brings me to my next point. In the new Nephilim world now, CP cannot be randomly wasted. 2CP strategems need to either get you a whole bunch of VP, or change the battle in a pivitol way, or at least help you delete a tough unit. Its not enough to help you hit (a little bit better), or kill 2 or 3 more models.
3. Against AOC, AP2 is a lot less powerful now. Consider this, I shot my 9 bike Tzeentch unit (admittedly without any support) at a 5 man intercessor squad in cover. I wasted 1 CP on the demon shell strategem and didn't even kill the squad. Because they were saving on 3s even against AP2. I should have done the math and just saved the CP. Bikes are now anti-armor (because armor doesn't get cover) or only good against stuff that AP2 reduces to a 4+ save. Do not shoot them into power armor in cover unless you are content to kill maybe 3 models with 36 shots.
4. Damage 2 is not that wonderful anymore. Look through your profiles. Dreadnaughts are popular these days. And some armies can -1 damage with strategems. And DG do it for their whole army. Don't over rely on damage 2 profiles. You will run into an army that literally halves your entire army's output and you will be sad.
5. Abaddon needs to be wielded with skill. He needs to get back his points or more. Be too cautious with him, and you wasted his 300 points and potential. Be too aggressive with him, and you lose him early because you thought he was invincible but he isn't.
6. Stop trying to make your list shoot well. Outside of a very few exceptions like maybe emperor's children noise marine spam, or a IW list, you will end up with a list that shoots only semi-well while you neglected what CSM actually does well now, which is Melee.
7. Mobility does matter. Don't build a pure melee army that only moves 6 inches a turn. Our secondaries don't really support that slow and steady march up the board style of play. In fact, if you like that style, honestly, DG does it much better because they have good DG secondaries for this and almost their entire army actually supports that style of play. If you won with this style of play, you would have won with even more VP playing a DG army.
8. Don't knock on transports. Related to point seven . Mobility matters. Transports not only protect your units inside, they give you a lot of mobility. (Just the disembark 3 inches extends your threat range by 3 inches). And its not just Rhinos, even our LR are usable now if you want terminator units to be mobile. In the AOC world we live in currently. A Rhino is no joke to kill. It has an effective 2+ sav against anything with AP1 or better, And it has smokescreen for -1 to hit. And frankly, does your opponent really want to kill something that is only 80 points and has already delivered the units within it 12 inches +d6 advance? (The contents will disembark out 3 inches) so in effect, the Rhino has already done it job.
9. Secondaries! Build your list with secondaires in mind. CSM does not have auto high score secondaries. You literally have to have a plan and to build your army specifically to help you score the secondaries you have in mind. Even if its to have an extra psyker solely to perform psychic secondary, or a min 5 legionaire squad you plan to yeet up the board in a Rhino to do actions for secondaries like "For the dark gods", or those 2 cultists mob squads you are prepared to pay 1 CP to put in strategic reserve, to come in and score RND.
Just sharing some traps in list building and matchplay that I learnt from playing some games since the codex dropped. Do share more "traps" if you have come across them.
Rivener wrote: Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.
Noise Marines can do a lot of damage at range. Their new blast master is so much better than a lascannon.
That’s 140 points though. Havocs are 5 more for four lascannons, or four chaincannons, along with T5, and they benefit from legion traits. Even at 12” the Havocs outperform against MEQ, so I can’t help but think noise marines are more of an “EC only” pick.
Yes, if you are playing noise marines, you might as well go EC. Sadly. I mentioned this as one of the traps for CSM list building. Stop trying to build a super shooty army with CSM. Unfortunately, we simply aren't that shooty any more. You will end up with a semi-decent shooty army that neglected what it was actually good at - melee.
A sonic blaster puts out 3 shots per model and is Ap-1 - yes, marines will ignore the latter but its d2 which is very scary for them. And the blastmaster is 6 shots and S5 ap-2.
Add in your ability to advance and fire without penalty and they're some of the best mobile small arms going.
The Dark Commune feels...um. so so. I mean: on the face of it it does the job of sorcerer and a dark apostle and (for cultists only) a chaos lord. So whilst it lacks the protection of CHARACTER status you get a lot for your points.
No character protection only puts you on a par with command squads.
My main issue is that s cultist hq seems like a bad investment when it's hard to build an effective cultist centric force due to mere mortals.
Eldenfirefly wrote: After trying out a couple of games all of which are in black legion, I notice there are a few traps in CSM. Don't fall into these, whether during the list building stage or during the game.
1. Don't try and build some mega buffed up legionaire squad. This simply isn't efficient. You will end up going to 10 men, and putting mark and icon, and end up spending 200 points on a unit that will only do half as a 200 point unit of Khorne berserkers, or Khorne Chosen, or Possessed. I don't care that legionaires have better strategem support, if you used a unit that was actually very good at its job, you wouldn't need to spend the CP anyway.
2. This brings me to my next point. In the new Nephilim world now, CP cannot be randomly wasted. 2CP strategems need to either get you a whole bunch of VP, or change the battle in a pivitol way, or at least help you delete a tough unit. Its not enough to help you hit (a little bit better), or kill 2 or 3 more models.
3. Against AOC, AP2 is a lot less powerful now. Consider this, I shot my 9 bike Tzeentch unit (admittedly without any support) at a 5 man intercessor squad in cover. I wasted 1 CP on the demon shell strategem and didn't even kill the squad. Because they were saving on 3s even against AP2. I should have done the math and just saved the CP. Bikes are now anti-armor (because armor doesn't get cover) or only good against stuff that AP2 reduces to a 4+ save. Do not shoot them into power armor in cover unless you are content to kill maybe 3 models with 36 shots.
4. Damage 2 is not that wonderful anymore. Look through your profiles. Dreadnaughts are popular these days. And some armies can -1 damage with strategems. And DG do it for their whole army. Don't over rely on damage 2 profiles. You will run into an army that literally halves your entire army's output and you will be sad.
5. Abaddon needs to be wielded with skill. He needs to get back his points or more. Be too cautious with him, and you wasted his 300 points and potential. Be too aggressive with him, and you lose him early because you thought he was invincible but he isn't.
6. Stop trying to make your list shoot well. Outside of a very few exceptions like maybe emperor's children noise marine spam, or a IW list, you will end up with a list that shoots only semi-well while you neglected what CSM actually does well now, which is Melee.
7. Mobility does matter. Don't build a pure melee army that only moves 6 inches a turn. Our secondaries don't really support that slow and steady march up the board style of play. In fact, if you like that style, honestly, DG does it much better because they have good DG secondaries for this and almost their entire army actually supports that style of play. If you won with this style of play, you would have won with even more VP playing a DG army.
8. Don't knock on transports. Related to point seven . Mobility matters. Transports not only protect your units inside, they give you a lot of mobility. (Just the disembark 3 inches extends your threat range by 3 inches). And its not just Rhinos, even our LR are usable now if you want terminator units to be mobile. In the AOC world we live in currently. A Rhino is no joke to kill. It has an effective 2+ sav against anything with AP1 or better, And it has smokescreen for -1 to hit. And frankly, does your opponent really want to kill something that is only 80 points and has already delivered the units within it 12 inches +d6 advance? (The contents will disembark out 3 inches) so in effect, the Rhino has already done it job.
9. Secondaries! Build your list with secondaires in mind. CSM does not have auto high score secondaries. You literally have to have a plan and to build your army specifically to help you score the secondaries you have in mind. Even if its to have an extra psyker solely to perform psychic secondary, or a min 5 legionaire squad you plan to yeet up the board in a Rhino to do actions for secondaries like "For the dark gods", or those 2 cultists mob squads you are prepared to pay 1 CP to put in strategic reserve, to come in and score RND.
Just sharing some traps in list building and matchplay that I learnt from playing some games since the codex dropped. Do share more "traps" if you have come across them.
Rivener wrote: Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.
Noise Marines can do a lot of damage at range. Their new blast master is so much better than a lascannon.
That’s 140 points though. Havocs are 5 more for four lascannons, or four chaincannons, along with T5, and they benefit from legion traits. Even at 12” the Havocs outperform against MEQ, so I can’t help but think noise marines are more of an “EC only” pick.
Yes, if you are playing noise marines, you might as well go EC. Sadly. I mentioned this as one of the traps for CSM list building. Stop trying to build a super shooty army with CSM. Unfortunately, we simply aren't that shooty any more. You will end up with a semi-decent shooty army that neglected what it was actually good at - melee.
half of these points to me read more like a fundamental design failure being the change in core rules or faction design.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Nobody I know plays Nephilim (because it's hot garbage) but I'll have to look at the Nachmund rules again before I play. If you're indeed correct, that definitely blows.
Nephilim's great in a lot of ways to be honest -- I think a lot of people haven't given it a fair shake. The low CP meta works to the advantage of CSM as much as it works against them. It forces much more tactical play and makes every decision in the game much more important.... so it makes it easier to screw up your positioning and waste your precious 2 command points on something useless, sure. But it also rewards careful planning, efficient list-building and mastery of both the core rules and the rules in your codex.
That being said, man, it's made the learning curve for Chaos Space Marines really rough and getting familiar with the stratagems much slower than any codex which came out before since there is it's so much less merciful on you for screwing things up.... so I can understand the impulse to avoid it. Still, I think playing under the restrictions that Nephilim has is probably going to make you a better player of any faction in the end. It's a shake up to how the game has felt like for most of the edition certainly but there's definite positives to it. The CP management game just adds another tactical layer to the game -- and I like how it tends to reveal how much of a crutch stratagems are for certain armies (and how little they matters to others).
Sarigar wrote: For the Emperor's Children, I think it opens up the use of non LOS shooting. EC ignore modifiers to hit and modifiers to BS.
At the very least it means your Noise Marines can always run and shoot without penalty and Power/Chain Fists, Thunder Hammers become much more attractive. Ironically, it makes Havocs a little less attractive, except from a points perspective, since the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons is gone also.
Sarigar wrote: But, does it also mean non LOS shooting platforms are back to hitting on their original BS (3+ in these cases)?
Yes, I believe that would be the case, although CSM non-LOS options are somewhat lackluster, especially since most of them are Relic units that cost CP to include.
Sarigar wrote: But, does it also mean non LOS shooting platforms are back to hitting on their original BS (3+ in these cases)?
Yes, I believe that would be the case, although CSM non-LOS options are somewhat lackluster, especially since most of them are Relic units that cost CP to include.
The Whirlwind costs CP. The Rapier does not. I'll look into other options to see where they land. Not looking for a ton on non LOS shooting, but it has value. After the rule update, I saw non LOS shooting removedfrom lists and opponents taking advantage of it as a result. Putting some back into a list may have added flexibility.
Rivener wrote: That’s 140 points though. Havocs are 5 more for four lascannons, or four chaincannons, along with T5, and they benefit from legion traits. Even at 12” the Havocs outperform against MEQ, so I can’t help but think noise marines are more of an “EC only” pick.
I'm leaning towards Slaanesh havocs to spike a 6 with a lascannon.
Eldenfirefly wrote: After trying out a couple of games all of which are in black legion, I notice there are a few traps in CSM. Don't fall into these, whether during the list building stage or during the game.
1. Don't try and build some mega buffed up legionaire squad. This simply isn't efficient. You will end up going to 10 men, and putting mark and icon, and end up spending 200 points on a unit that will only do half as a 200 point unit of Khorne berserkers, or Khorne Chosen, or Possessed. I don't care that legionaires have better strategem support, if you used a unit that was actually very good at its job, you wouldn't need to spend the CP anyway.
2. This brings me to my next point. In the new Nephilim world now, CP cannot be randomly wasted. 2CP strategems need to either get you a whole bunch of VP, or change the battle in a pivitol way, or at least help you delete a tough unit. Its not enough to help you hit (a little bit better), or kill 2 or 3 more models.
3. Against AOC, AP2 is a lot less powerful now. Consider this, I shot my 9 bike Tzeentch unit (admittedly without any support) at a 5 man intercessor squad in cover. I wasted 1 CP on the demon shell strategem and didn't even kill the squad. Because they were saving on 3s even against AP2. I should have done the math and just saved the CP. Bikes are now anti-armor (because armor doesn't get cover) or only good against stuff that AP2 reduces to a 4+ save. Do not shoot them into power armor in cover unless you are content to kill maybe 3 models with 36 shots.
4. Damage 2 is not that wonderful anymore. Look through your profiles. Dreadnaughts are popular these days. And some armies can -1 damage with strategems. And DG do it for their whole army. Don't over rely on damage 2 profiles. You will run into an army that literally halves your entire army's output and you will be sad.
5. Abaddon needs to be wielded with skill. He needs to get back his points or more. Be too cautious with him, and you wasted his 300 points and potential. Be too aggressive with him, and you lose him early because you thought he was invincible but he isn't.
6. Stop trying to make your list shoot well. Outside of a very few exceptions like maybe emperor's children noise marine spam, or a IW list, you will end up with a list that shoots only semi-well while you neglected what CSM actually does well now, which is Melee.
7. Mobility does matter. Don't build a pure melee army that only moves 6 inches a turn. Our secondaries don't really support that slow and steady march up the board style of play. In fact, if you like that style, honestly, DG does it much better because they have good DG secondaries for this and almost their entire army actually supports that style of play. If you won with this style of play, you would have won with even more VP playing a DG army.
8. Don't knock on transports. Related to point seven . Mobility matters. Transports not only protect your units inside, they give you a lot of mobility. (Just the disembark 3 inches extends your threat range by 3 inches). And its not just Rhinos, even our LR are usable now if you want terminator units to be mobile. In the AOC world we live in currently. A Rhino is no joke to kill. It has an effective 2+ sav against anything with AP1 or better, And it has smokescreen for -1 to hit. And frankly, does your opponent really want to kill something that is only 80 points and has already delivered the units within it 12 inches +d6 advance? (The contents will disembark out 3 inches) so in effect, the Rhino has already done it job.
9. Secondaries! Build your list with secondaires in mind. CSM does not have auto high score secondaries. You literally have to have a plan and to build your army specifically to help you score the secondaries you have in mind. Even if its to have an extra psyker solely to perform psychic secondary, or a min 5 legionaire squad you plan to yeet up the board in a Rhino to do actions for secondaries like "For the dark gods", or those 2 cultists mob squads you are prepared to pay 1 CP to put in strategic reserve, to come in and score RND.
Just sharing some traps in list building and matchplay that I learnt from playing some games since the codex dropped. Do share more "traps" if you have come across them.
Rivener wrote: Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.
Noise Marines can do a lot of damage at range. Their new blast master is so much better than a lascannon.
That’s 140 points though. Havocs are 5 more for four lascannons, or four chaincannons, along with T5, and they benefit from legion traits. Even at 12” the Havocs outperform against MEQ, so I can’t help but think noise marines are more of an “EC only” pick.
Yes, if you are playing noise marines, you might as well go EC. Sadly. I mentioned this as one of the traps for CSM list building. Stop trying to build a super shooty army with CSM. Unfortunately, we simply aren't that shooty any more. You will end up with a semi-decent shooty army that neglected what it was actually good at - melee.
half of these points to me read more like a fundamental design failure being the change in core rules or faction design.
what an awesome dex....
If we were to distill them --
1. Large squads Legionaries might not be efficient
2. CP management is difficult and having a plan for it is essential
3. Marines are durable
4. Damage 2 is situationally useful ( as might a D3 weapon be situationally useful against a W4 model )
5. Abaddon isn't a 'I win' button
6. Making a shooting list requires careful consideration
7. Mobility is important
8. Transports are useful
9. Have a plan on how your army scores
None of those read as fundamental design failure except perhaps #1, but that's debatable.
I'd probably only disagree with 9 as the CSM secondaries are difficult to build around effectively.
Eldenfirefly wrote: After trying out a couple of games all of which are in black legion, I notice there are a few traps in CSM. Don't fall into these, whether during the list building stage or during the game.
1. Don't try and build some mega buffed up legionaire squad. This simply isn't efficient. You will end up going to 10 men, and putting mark and icon, and end up spending 200 points on a unit that will only do half as a 200 point unit of Khorne berserkers, or Khorne Chosen, or Possessed. I don't care that legionaires have better strategem support, if you used a unit that was actually very good at its job, you wouldn't need to spend the CP anyway.
2. This brings me to my next point. In the new Nephilim world now, CP cannot be randomly wasted. 2CP strategems need to either get you a whole bunch of VP, or change the battle in a pivitol way, or at least help you delete a tough unit. Its not enough to help you hit (a little bit better), or kill 2 or 3 more models.
3. Against AOC, AP2 is a lot less powerful now. Consider this, I shot my 9 bike Tzeentch unit (admittedly without any support) at a 5 man intercessor squad in cover. I wasted 1 CP on the demon shell strategem and didn't even kill the squad. Because they were saving on 3s even against AP2. I should have done the math and just saved the CP. Bikes are now anti-armor (because armor doesn't get cover) or only good against stuff that AP2 reduces to a 4+ save. Do not shoot them into power armor in cover unless you are content to kill maybe 3 models with 36 shots.
4. Damage 2 is not that wonderful anymore. Look through your profiles. Dreadnaughts are popular these days. And some armies can -1 damage with strategems. And DG do it for their whole army. Don't over rely on damage 2 profiles. You will run into an army that literally halves your entire army's output and you will be sad.
5. Abaddon needs to be wielded with skill. He needs to get back his points or more. Be too cautious with him, and you wasted his 300 points and potential. Be too aggressive with him, and you lose him early because you thought he was invincible but he isn't.
6. Stop trying to make your list shoot well. Outside of a very few exceptions like maybe emperor's children noise marine spam, or a IW list, you will end up with a list that shoots only semi-well while you neglected what CSM actually does well now, which is Melee.
7. Mobility does matter. Don't build a pure melee army that only moves 6 inches a turn. Our secondaries don't really support that slow and steady march up the board style of play. In fact, if you like that style, honestly, DG does it much better because they have good DG secondaries for this and almost their entire army actually supports that style of play. If you won with this style of play, you would have won with even more VP playing a DG army.
8. Don't knock on transports. Related to point seven . Mobility matters. Transports not only protect your units inside, they give you a lot of mobility. (Just the disembark 3 inches extends your threat range by 3 inches). And its not just Rhinos, even our LR are usable now if you want terminator units to be mobile. In the AOC world we live in currently. A Rhino is no joke to kill. It has an effective 2+ sav against anything with AP1 or better, And it has smokescreen for -1 to hit. And frankly, does your opponent really want to kill something that is only 80 points and has already delivered the units within it 12 inches +d6 advance? (The contents will disembark out 3 inches) so in effect, the Rhino has already done it job.
9. Secondaries! Build your list with secondaires in mind. CSM does not have auto high score secondaries. You literally have to have a plan and to build your army specifically to help you score the secondaries you have in mind. Even if its to have an extra psyker solely to perform psychic secondary, or a min 5 legionaire squad you plan to yeet up the board in a Rhino to do actions for secondaries like "For the dark gods", or those 2 cultists mob squads you are prepared to pay 1 CP to put in strategic reserve, to come in and score RND.
Just sharing some traps in list building and matchplay that I learnt from playing some games since the codex dropped. Do share more "traps" if you have come across them.
Rivener wrote: Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.
Noise Marines can do a lot of damage at range. Their new blast master is so much better than a lascannon.
That’s 140 points though. Havocs are 5 more for four lascannons, or four chaincannons, along with T5, and they benefit from legion traits. Even at 12” the Havocs outperform against MEQ, so I can’t help but think noise marines are more of an “EC only” pick.
Yes, if you are playing noise marines, you might as well go EC. Sadly. I mentioned this as one of the traps for CSM list building. Stop trying to build a super shooty army with CSM. Unfortunately, we simply aren't that shooty any more. You will end up with a semi-decent shooty army that neglected what it was actually good at - melee.
half of these points to me read more like a fundamental design failure being the change in core rules or faction design.
what an awesome dex....
If we were to distill them --
1. Large squads Legionaries might not be efficient
Ineefective unit is innefective by unit design. See lack of specailisation, still available double shooting probably to blame for that.
2. CP management is difficult and having a plan for it is essential
Yeah, memeber when at the start of this edition trainwreck we were supposed to have more CP not less? Oh wait maybee stratagems and free upgrades were an issue , he let's MAKE A CODEX that PLAYS ARROUND CP AND UPGRADES and CUT CP EVEN MORE.
3. Marines are durable
No gak, you know what is also funny, AOC being a thing due to AP creep all over this edition. Congrats we are just in the phase were Defense of some factions is better than the offense of others... no , that ain't a fundamental flaw nope, NOT AT ALL..
4. Damage 2 is situationally useful ( as might a D3 weapon be situationally useful against a W4 model )
5. Abaddon isn't a 'I win' button
6. Making a shooting list requires careful consideration
That sounded more like if you like x legion, and played shooty, get fethed.
7. Mobility is important
8. Transports are useful
No gak, maybee because the board is so small and rhinos still overpriced we will see the codex still suck
9. Have a plan on how your army scores
None of those read as fundamental design failure except perhaps #1, but that's debatable.
I'd probably only disagree with 9 as the CSM secondaries are difficult to build around effectively.
A sonic blaster puts out 3 shots per model and is Ap-1 - yes, marines will ignore the latter but its d2 which is very scary for them. And the blastmaster is 6 shots and S5 ap-2.
Add in your ability to advance and fire without penalty and they're some of the best mobile small arms going.
The Dark Commune feels...um. so so. I mean: on the face of it it does the job of sorcerer and a dark apostle and (for cultists only) a chaos lord. So whilst it lacks the protection of CHARACTER status you get a lot for your points.
No character protection only puts you on a par with command squads.
My main issue is that s cultist hq seems like a bad investment when it's hard to build an effective cultist centric force due to mere mortals.
I believe that so long as at least ONE model has the Character Keyword, the whole unit benefits from Look Out Sir.
Not 100% sure, since I don't have my rulebook with me, but I think that's how it works.
Rivener wrote: Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.
In Emperor's Children they're troops so you can 4-6 MSU Blastmater squads for 120 pts, and since they already have the mark you don't need to pay for it. So each only is cheaper and has nearly the power of a Havoc Squad and can still move and shoot. With 48" range its pretty easy to get within half range for 4 damage, now imagine getting hit with coordinated fire from 3-6 at the same time that potentially 54-72 damage at the top end not counting Let the Galaxy Burn.
kerbarian wrote: I really want to like Helbrutes and they’re not bad, but Venomcrawlers do basically all the same things and are twice as fast.
Venomcrawlers are cheaper, for sure, the psyker bonus is nice, and their melee/shooting is pretty solid. They need an MoP and/or an LD to really shine I think.
Helbrutes are Core, so they can get Marks, between those two things it opens them up for a lot of active and passive buff options. Not sure Helbrutes are better, but I have them already, want to experiment with them. With fists/flamers they're 6 attacks, always strike first, get 2d6+4 Heavy Flamer shots, even in melee. Core/Mark also opens up a few additional stratagems for them also, situational, but possibly useful.
We'll see.
I still field my Legends Sonic Helbrutes and well...they are brutal with a 2+ save from Benedition of Darkness, 5+++ save from Delightful Agonies from a MOP, with AOC, and -1 damage. That's 4X Blastmasters, 2X Doom Sirens and your choise of melee arm for 260 pts! Then when they actually do some actual damage they re-roll 1's to wound; and can shoot them back in their shooting phase with Fire Frenzy for 1CP.
Help a guy spend, or not spend, his money please. Is there any value in picking up a Kytan for my embryonic World Eaters army? Anything in the new codex that could help that model out, or do I just get a close combat chaos knight (not so exciting?).
Cheers
KirvesUK wrote: Help a guy spend, or not spend, his money please. Is there any value in picking up a Kytan for my embryonic World Eaters army? Anything in the new codex that could help that model out, or do I just get a close combat chaos knight (not so exciting?).
Cheers
Hmmm... well, a warp smith can heal it d3 per turn. So with its natural regen, that's D3+1 wounds back each turn. Warpsmith can also give it +1 to hit, so you can save the CP for daemonforge. A master of possession can cast the psychic mutated invigoration to increase its toughness to T9 and the same MOP can also cast cursed earth to give it a 4++ invul save. So yeah, you can get a ton of support on your Kytan with the new codex.
Just one consideration though. Both those support characters can only move 6 inches. They might have trouble keeping up with your Kytan after turn 1, especially if your Kytan charges something. Oh, I just realised you mentioned world eaters.... so scratch the MOP.
Well, a Kytan costs zero CP for you to bring in your world Eaters. While a chaos knight is going to cost you 3CP. 3 CP is a huge consideration these days in matchplay. So... bring a Kytan. Its more fluffy and that 3 CP saved is going to help you in many more ways.
Actually, 3 Maulerfiends cost the same points as a Kytan and are probably better. More tactically flexible and they are really mean in close combat now.
I am finding it hard to build a list and not put a land raider in it. I have been really happy with they way it has preformed in my games so far. I haven't really faced any major shooting armies like Tau or Admec. Anyone have experience with the land raider against heavy shooting armies?
I think this is a very excellent interview of a guy who has spent many hours and games playing a CSM army against strong players in the Nephilim environment.
This is really very good stuff. What he says may not work for every legion, but quite a lot of it is generic enough that it works for a lot of the legions. He is able to make Alpha legion (which a lot of people didn't think was the strongest legions) work super well. And a lot of the strategies and tactics he pointed out can work towards other legions too and he said as much because the datasheets are good enough.
He has tried the list into the feared Necrons, Eldar hail of doom, etc. While some of the stuff are Alpha legion specific, I am sure other legions bring other things to the table as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xeen wrote: I am finding it hard to build a list and not put a land raider in it. I have been really happy with they way it has preformed in my games so far. I haven't really faced any major shooting armies like Tau or Admec. Anyone have experience with the land raider against heavy shooting armies?
Have tried the LR and its really tanky. Honestly, a lot of shooting armies will have problems with it. Only very specific shooting armies like Tau bringing lots of railguns and Admec laschickens might have a better time against it. The rest will find it extremely difficult to kill a LR by shooting. I actually think the more likely way people try and kill a LR is to just punch it to death with a high Str melee weapon. Dreadnaughts are popular these days and they have the Strength in their fists to wound even a LR on 3s.
I honestly wouldn't worry about Tau or Admech, unless you face a ton of them in your local meta. I mean like, why cut out a LR if you are having so much fun with it and it is pulling its weight just because two out of 18 or 20 possible codexes might be good against it? lol No unit is gonna be good against everything in the game. Theoratically, you can hide your LR behind obscuring terrain, then use the MOP to buff it to T10 before rushing it forward. At that point, even Laschickens are wounding it on 5s.
Yea it hasn’t even been bracketed yet in the 5 games I used it. Melta and plasma just don’t hurt it. An opponent really needs to have actual AT weapons to really threaten it.
Yea I had one opponent tag it but the new LC are good at clearing all but hoards off of it even in combat.
Rivener wrote: Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.
Speaking of which, I don’t get the Dark Commune. Seems that only the priest is a character, so in terms of price you’re getting a limited priest, an effortless to kill psyker, and some random dudes that’ll die to bolters. With only three HQ slots and over a dozen spells and prayers to use, that feels kind of silly.
All sonic weapons get +1 damage if they are in half range. Blastmaster is Heavy 3 S8 -3 3D.
The dark commune unit can benefit from look out sird. So for 100 points you get unit that can chant 1 of 3 prayers AND cast 1 of 3 powers. Im sure theres a role for it in someones list. If you only are interested in the 1 of the first 3 powers/chants for your list you can get access to both for a discount of 100pts.
Downside is you cant mark them so you dont get a dark gods power/chant. and you get a pretty poor statline. But again for 100 points you can cast 1 power and 1 chant of the first 3. Im assuming majority of the time you gonna want Prescience and the Light cover chant. Unsure if really worth it, I think in a pinch if you need another psyker but also want access to a priest.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think this is a very excellent interview of a guy who has spent many hours and games playing a CSM army against strong players in the Nephilim environment.
This is really very good stuff. What he says may not work for every legion, but quite a lot of it is generic enough that it works for a lot of the legions. He is able to make Alpha legion (which a lot of people didn't think was the strongest legions) work super well. And a lot of the strategies and tactics he pointed out can work towards other legions too and he said as much because the datasheets are good enough.
He has tried the list into the feared Necrons, Eldar hail of doom, etc. While some of the stuff are Alpha legion specific, I am sure other legions bring other things to the table as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xeen wrote: I am finding it hard to build a list and not put a land raider in it. I have been really happy with they way it has preformed in my games so far. I haven't really faced any major shooting armies like Tau or Admec. Anyone have experience with the land raider against heavy shooting armies?
Have tried the LR and its really tanky. Honestly, a lot of shooting armies will have problems with it. Only very specific shooting armies like Tau bringing lots of railguns and Admec laschickens might have a better time against it. The rest will find it extremely difficult to kill a LR by shooting. I actually think the more likely way people try and kill a LR is to just punch it to death with a high Str melee weapon. Dreadnaughts are popular these days and they have the Strength in their fists to wound even a LR on 3s.
I honestly wouldn't worry about Tau or Admech, unless you face a ton of them in your local meta. I mean like, why cut out a LR if you are having so much fun with it and it is pulling its weight just because two out of 18 or 20 possible codexes might be good against it? lol No unit is gonna be good against everything in the game. Theoratically, you can hide your LR behind obscuring terrain, then use the MOP to buff it to T10 before rushing it forward. At that point, even Laschickens are wounding it on 5s.
But why does it matter if it'll only be wounded on 5s if it's still just 4 Lascannon shots (yes it has minimum damage and no I don't care) and the TL Heavy Bolter you're paying for? It doesn't matter what else you add to it when the model is still 250+ points and that's all you get. Just a few points more is 3 Obliterators or pay 80 more for two Forgefiends or Predators or either type with Lascanon Sponsons. Less worry about bracketing (which is not hard to do even if you spend time to bring it to T10 for whatever reason, since that's not going to affect a lot of weapons) and more ground covered.
I legit cannot figure out why some players are clamoring about the Land Raider.
Well, its also the transport capacity. Mobility is very important now. Being able to transport stuff and keep it protected up the board is a big deal. Especially when you disembark 3 inches, so that extends your threat range by 3 inches. You can transport terminators, killy power armored dudes, or even Abaddon himself in a LR up the board.
And even the shooting. While one turn of 4 soulshatter cannons and twin heavy bolters isn't much. But if your LR survived the full game (because nobody bothers to shoot it), then that's 5 rounds of shooting. Then over the course of the whole game, it adds up to 20 shots of soul shatter lascannons and 30 shots of heavy autobolters.
Any other heavy support else might have problems surviving one or two turns, in which case their damage output is a lot less.
I am not saying LR is an autotake. Its not. But it has its merits.
I mean, a possible comparision would be a LR vs two Plague Burst Crawlers. The damage output is kinda similar (4 entropy cannons vs 4 soul shatter cannon shots), and both sides are very tanky vehicles that a lot of opponents won't waste too much effort shooting at unless they have the guns for it. Lots of DG lists still bring two PBCs for some anti-tank. A LR just happens to double up as a transport as well.
Dr.Duck wrote: The dark commune unit can benefit from look out sird. So for 100 points you get unit that can chant 1 of 3 prayers AND cast 1 of 3 powers. Im sure theres a role for it in someones list. If you only are interested in the 1 of the first 3 powers/chants for your list you can get access to both for a discount of 100pts.
Downside is you cant mark them so you dont get a dark gods power/chant. and you get a pretty poor statline. But again for 100 points you can cast 1 power and 1 chant of the first 3. Im assuming majority of the time you gonna want Prescience and the Light cover chant. Unsure if really worth it, I think in a pinch if you need another psyker but also want access to a priest.
Only one model has the character keyword. Is there an FAQ that lets the whole unit hide?
They're definitely interesting to lean into cultist blobs.
Models cannot target a unit that contains any CHARACTER models with a Wounds characteristic of 9 or less with a ranged weapon while that CHARACTER unit is within 3" of any of the following:
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, its also the transport capacity. Mobility is very important now. Being able to transport stuff and keep it protected up the board is a big deal. Especially when you disembark 3 inches, so that extends your threat range by 3 inches. You can transport terminators, killy power armored dudes, or even Abaddon himself in a LR up the board.
And even the shooting. While one turn of 4 soulshatter cannons and twin heavy bolters isn't much. But if your LR survived the full game (because nobody bothers to shoot it), then that's 5 rounds of shooting. Then over the course of the whole game, it adds up to 20 shots of soul shatter lascannons and 30 shots of heavy autobolters.
Any other heavy support else might have problems surviving one or two turns, in which case their damage output is a lot less.
I am not saying LR is an autotake. Its not. But it has its merits.
I mean, a possible comparision would be a LR vs two Plague Burst Crawlers. The damage output is kinda similar (4 entropy cannons vs 4 soul shatter cannon shots), and both sides are very tanky vehicles that a lot of opponents won't waste too much effort shooting at unless they have the guns for it. Lots of DG lists still bring two PBCs for some anti-tank. A LR just happens to double up as a transport as well.
I too am excited at the prospect of the LR but do agree that it is a meta pick for sure. I feel like having something worth putting in the LR, maybe like 2x5 noise marines that you wanna shove up the board or maybe havocs. Maybe even Zerkers now or after they get the dex. 3 LRs full of zerkers sounds kina fun lol, Thats alot of points but luckily the dex is full of really efficient MSU units.
3 LRs 3 Zerkers/10 CSM with Khorne Icons
3 Crawlers
2-3 Characters
Whatever else you can squeeze in lol
I don't see any significant changes to the land raider. It's still a multi purpose platform that pays for all it's potential. We're better off with a rhino and a dedicated shooting unit.
I'll try it anyway once again since I have a heavily converted rogue trader era model but I'm not expecting much different from every other edition.
Can someone maybe share experience with legionaries? I have 30 on sprue and simply cannot decide how to assemble them. 10 are fixed from the old SC, 10 are the normal kit and 10 are the new with the book and reaper cannon sprue.
I really like the idea of playing them as ref corsairs, maybe using 5-10 with Mark of Khorne, great axe and fist or deamon blade on Vet. I also like the idea of redundant psykers in some units. 5-10 Legionaries with Mark of Tzeentch and a Heavy Bolter and Book sound like a choice for ranged rupport. With bits from my old AoS Khorne force I could convert some to Khorne Berserkers, but to be honest I do not see the point why to pick Berzerkers over Legionaries with Mark as they cost more but have no access to fight twice or special weapon options.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Can someone maybe share experience with legionaries? I have 30 on sprue and simply cannot decide how to assemble them. 10 are fixed from the old SC, 10 are the normal kit and 10 are the new with the book and reaper cannon sprue.
I really like the idea of playing them as ref corsairs, maybe using 5-10 with Mark of Khorne, great axe and fist or deamon blade on Vet. I also like the idea of redundant psykers in some units. 5-10 Legionaries with Mark of Tzeentch and a Heavy Bolter and Book sound like a choice for ranged rupport. With bits from my old AoS Khorne force I could convert some to Khorne Berserkers, but to be honest I do not see the point why to pick Berzerkers over Legionaries with Mark as they cost more but have no access to fight twice or special weapon options.
Has anyone some advice?
I think 2 squads of Khorne legionaries in LRs might have legs. Would playtest it tho before buying another LR.
I kinda like the 10 man tzeench squad with HB and Chaincannon. If you pop daemon shell you get -2 ap Chaincannon and -3 APHB with -2 bolters. Problem is they are just marines and you might struggle to keep them alive. So prob have a few more aggressive elements for your opponent to shoot at.
Really disapointed in the limited units you can put icons on. Would have loved to have 4HB havocs with tzeench and demonshell
Can you put Plague Marines in a CSM Landraider or is there a legion conflict?
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Can someone maybe share experience with legionaries? I have 30 on sprue and simply cannot decide how to assemble them. 10 are fixed from the old SC, 10 are the normal kit and 10 are the new with the book and reaper cannon sprue.
I really like the idea of playing them as ref corsairs, maybe using 5-10 with Mark of Khorne, great axe and fist or deamon blade on Vet. I also like the idea of redundant psykers in some units. 5-10 Legionaries with Mark of Tzeentch and a Heavy Bolter and Book sound like a choice for ranged rupport. With bits from my old AoS Khorne force I could convert some to Khorne Berserkers, but to be honest I do not see the point why to pick Berzerkers over Legionaries with Mark as they cost more but have no access to fight twice or special weapon options.
Has anyone some advice?
I think 2 squads of Khorne legionaries in LRs might have legs. Would playtest it tho before buying another LR.
I kinda like the 10 man tzeench squad with HB and Chaincannon. If you pop daemon shell you get -2 ap Chaincannon and -3 APHB with -2 bolters. Problem is they are just marines and you might struggle to keep them alive. So prob have a few more aggressive elements for your opponent to shoot at.
Really disapointed in the limited units you can put icons on. Would have loved to have 4HB havocs with tzeench and demonshell
Can you put Plague Marines in a CSM Landraider or is there a legion conflict?
You can put them in. Cult units are <legion> infantry so have all the keywords to get in transports - they just don't get the trait to go with the keyword.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Can someone maybe share experience with legionaries? I have 30 on sprue and simply cannot decide how to assemble them. 10 are fixed from the old SC, 10 are the normal kit and 10 are the new with the book and reaper cannon sprue.
I really like the idea of playing them as ref corsairs, maybe using 5-10 with Mark of Khorne, great axe and fist or deamon blade on Vet. I also like the idea of redundant psykers in some units. 5-10 Legionaries with Mark of Tzeentch and a Heavy Bolter and Book sound like a choice for ranged rupport. With bits from my old AoS Khorne force I could convert some to Khorne Berserkers, but to be honest I do not see the point why to pick Berzerkers over Legionaries with Mark as they cost more but have no access to fight twice or special weapon options.
Has anyone some advice?
I think 2 squads of Khorne legionaries in LRs might have legs. Would playtest it tho before buying another LR.
I kinda like the 10 man tzeench squad with HB and Chaincannon. If you pop daemon shell you get -2 ap Chaincannon and -3 APHB with -2 bolters. Problem is they are just marines and you might struggle to keep them alive. So prob have a few more aggressive elements for your opponent to shoot at.
Really disapointed in the limited units you can put icons on. Would have loved to have 4HB havocs with tzeench and demonshell
Can you put Plague Marines in a CSM Landraider or is there a legion conflict?
Your MoT squad is absolutely a bad idea because Rubric Marines do all that at base.
dan2026 wrote: How are people using Terminators now?
If at all?
i like to run a 5 men with full flamers and teleport them to an enemy objective but im considering running a larger, melee oriented squad and walkthem with buffs, i play Emperor's Children mostly so the fists go without penalties
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Can someone maybe share experience with legionaries? I have 30 on sprue and simply cannot decide how to assemble them. 10 are fixed from the old SC, 10 are the normal kit and 10 are the new with the book and reaper cannon sprue.
/.../
Has anyone some advice?
As Eldenfirefly wrote a bit back they are not doing anything specialized better than anyone else. E.g. if you want melee better pick Possessed, Berzerkers etc..
That said they are ObSec Troops, meaning if you want to handle midfield Primary Objective work they make more sense. Sure they aren´t the tip of the spear, but alongside something they seem fine. They are decently durable, they hit fairly hard and have a sizable footprint if you fill up a LR/Rhino of them.
Make a plan and they´ll deliver. They´re just not solo operators.
Well for the Rubrics I have used them and they are good. However, they are 230 for ten with a Soulreaper and mark of Tzeentch. 10 Legionaries with mark of Tzeentch, icon, chain cannon, and tome is 235, so about equivalent. The Rubrics have one better ap on their bolters, but that is a big difference due to AoC. The chain cannon is more shots, but also one less ap and one less strength (although 5 to 6 is usually not a noticeable leap). The Rubrics also have all is dust making them a bit tankyier. However, the legionaries have obsec and one more attack in close combat.
For me the problem with taking the rubrics over the legionaries is you have to account for 50 more points, as the Rubrics are not troops. Although personally I think running 5 man legionaries is a better idea to keep them cheap objective holders to work along side the elite units. I also think a lot of the equipment for the Legionaries is over priced for what it does. Finally if you are bringing rubrics, I would bring the flamers, which are sooooooooo good right now, which now would not really be comparable to the legionary squad anymore.
As for terminators I have run the big 10 man with the Rune and mark of Tzeentch, and the bare bones 5 man deep-striking. The deep-striking has been good as the terminators usually out match anything that is in the back line. However the big brick is also very good. I would say it kind of depends on what else you are bringing.I just got my 10 possessed to use this weekend, and so I am going to put the Rune on them, which is why I took the terminators down to 5 man, as the chosen can be put in my land raider.
For the big terminator brick with Rune and buffs, how are people loading them out? I think I've seen people talking about everything from a bare loadout (their job is to be unkillable) to full guns and power/chainfists.
My thinking had been to add some fists and reaper AC but not much for combi-weapons, since if they're not deep striking I'm not sure if they'll have any rounds where they're shooting within 12" and not also charging. But I also haven't had a chance to play any actual games with them yet.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Your MoT squad is absolutely a bad idea because Rubric Marines do all that at base.
Yea the bigger problem being the soulreaper is 5 which the reaper is 15. The CSM weapon costs are pretty high right now. The Legionarie squad has two heavies, but the CP requirement definitely puts them as less effective. The only upshot is obsec, but for ~225 points I can have something more durable there.
10 man Legionaries is for melee. 5 mans are the best for flexible shooting, but then the marks and icon become cost prohibitive.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Your MoT squad is absolutely a bad idea because Rubric Marines do all that at base.
Yea the bigger problem being the soulreaper is 5 which the reaper is 15. The CSM weapon costs are pretty high right now. The Legionarie squad has two heavies, but the CP requirement definitely puts them as less effective. The only upshot is obsec, but for ~225 points I can have something more durable there.
10 man Legionaries is for melee. 5 mans are the best for flexible shooting, but then the marks and icon become cost prohibitive.
I agree with this completely. I think Legionaries are cheap 5 man for objective holding (maybe a CC weapon or Chain cannon for some added light firepower but not both and certainly no other frills) or are 10 man melee attack squad with I would say mark of Khorne, but I could also see Slannesh.
I mean also maybe, paying the 20 points for the Tome on a 5 man (and nothing else) for a sorcerer to cast presience.
Also, on the subject on legionares. If its for a shooty backfield unit to hold an objective, you could just use an actual shooty unit like a Havoc squad, or a rubric shooty squad. You don't need the obsec unit per se for a backfield objective. So actual shooty units like rubrics or havocs will do the shooting better than legionaires squads trying to be shooty, and since its in the backfield, being obsec is not quite so important.
As Scactha pointed out, Legionaries are if you want an obsec unit that needs to get into harm's way. Like if you want obsec to contest or claim a midfield objective. Cultists obviously would be toast in such situations and easily picked off even with very incidental fire. Legionares at least has some chances to survive, especially if you have other units alongside or in front of them.
Depends how important the ObSec is for that too. Running Red Corsairs I'm already double counting, so if the opponent only has dead ObSec units it doesn't matter as much.
dan2026 wrote: How are people using Terminators now?
If at all?
I have been running a max squad of Black Legion Terminators with Black Rune and Mark of Tzeentch supported by a Dark Apostle and Master of Possession. It can face tank pretty well, but I found it too slow to do much. If it doesn't get into melee, it very much can be ignored (just like Abaddon).
Next game, I think I am going to go with 10 Terminators with 2 Chainfists, 4 Powerfists and 4 combi-meltas (that's how my models are built), Black Rune, Mark of Slaanesh supported by a Slaaneshi Sorcerer in Terminator Armor with Veilbreaker Plate possibly with Merciless Overseer to overclock shooting. The idea is to teleport them Turn 1 right in my opponent's face and possibly use Tip of the Spear for re-roll charge if I need extra AP in melee. With Death Hex and Delightful Agonies from the Sorcerer to get the most out of my melee weapons and shore of defense should my Terminators fail their charge (twice).
It might not be a good idea, but it will certainly get my Terminators into the thick of it right away. I figure worst case scenario, those Terminators eat up a lot of Turn 1 attacks and slow my opponent early game. The one thing it does do is feel very Luna Wolves... the aphla-iest of the alpha strikes.
But that is pretty much where I am with C:CSM. A lot of cool tricks that can be done once a game, that probably don't warrant the resources put into them and will ultimately cost you the game.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Can someone maybe share experience with legionaries? I have 30 on sprue and simply cannot decide how to assemble them. 10 are fixed from the old SC, 10 are the normal kit and 10 are the new with the book and reaper cannon sprue.
I really like the idea of playing them as ref corsairs, maybe using 5-10 with Mark of Khorne, great axe and fist or deamon blade on Vet. I also like the idea of redundant psykers in some units. 5-10 Legionaries with Mark of Tzeentch and a Heavy Bolter and Book sound like a choice for ranged rupport. With bits from my old AoS Khorne force I could convert some to Khorne Berserkers, but to be honest I do not see the point why to pick Berzerkers over Legionaries with Mark as they cost more but have no access to fight twice or special weapon options.
Has anyone some advice?
I think 2 squads of Khorne legionaries in LRs might have legs. Would playtest it tho before buying another LR.
I kinda like the 10 man tzeench squad with HB and Chaincannon. If you pop daemon shell you get -2 ap Chaincannon and -3 APHB with -2 bolters. Problem is they are just marines and you might struggle to keep them alive. So prob have a few more aggressive elements for your opponent to shoot at.
Really disapointed in the limited units you can put icons on. Would have loved to have 4HB havocs with tzeench and demonshell
Can you put Plague Marines in a CSM Landraider or is there a legion conflict?
Your MoT squad is absolutely a bad idea because Rubric Marines do all that at base.
I mean the guy was asking for ideas on legionaries. I have no doubt that rubrics or havocs a few other things in the dex do a better job but they arent troops and they arent legionaries. MSU tome units are definitely the better way to fill the troops.
Building a EC list its hard to not notice the mark tax on every unit. I find myself avoiding certain units over others because they simpily cant have a mark and are thus 15 points cheaper, and dont need some of the buffs im bringing. Having to mark my havocs/MoE/ and other characters adds up quick, and has me looking at other options.
dan2026 wrote: How are people using Terminators now?
If at all?
I have been running a max squad of Black Legion Terminators with Black Rune and Mark of Tzeentch supported by a Dark Apostle and Master of Possession. It can face tank pretty well, but I found it too slow to do much. If it doesn't get into melee, it very much can be ignored (just like Abaddon).
Next game, I think I am going to go with 10 Terminators with 2 Chainfists, 4 Powerfists and 4 combi-meltas (that's how my models are built), Black Rune, Mark of Slaanesh supported by a Slaaneshi Sorcerer in Terminator Armor with Veilbreaker Plate possibly with Merciless Overseer to overclock shooting. The idea is to teleport them Turn 1 right in my opponent's face and possibly use Tip of the Spear for re-roll charge if I need extra AP in melee. With Death Hex and Delightful Agonies from the Sorcerer to get the most out of my melee weapons and shore of defense should my Terminators fail their charge (twice).
It might not be a good idea, but it will certainly get my Terminators into the thick of it right away. I figure worst case scenario, those Terminators eat up a lot of Turn 1 attacks and slow my opponent early game. The one thing it does do is feel very Luna Wolves... the aphla-iest of the alpha strikes.
But that is pretty much where I am with C:CSM. A lot of cool tricks that can be done once a game, that probably don't warrant the resources put into them and will ultimately cost you the game.
I really like this super aggressive plan to get your terms in there and kinda road block the enemy early on. Been building lists with warptime just to get the terms up the midboard as fast as possible T1 but just taking veilbreaker might be more effective. Qs tho
Do you find it hard to keep your sorc alive when he goes in there to?
Whats the rest of your list? Can they effectively reach your terms by T2/3?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Something brought up in a vid covering all the things of EC. Kinda pointless to discuss becuase I dont think it works the way he thinks
MoS confers Slaanesh Keyword
Being EC also confers Slaanesh keyword to all units that either have undivided keyword or no other keyword
Possessed cant get MoS but can recieve the Slaanesh keyword if in EC and can buy an icon.
Guy seems to think that they then get the MoS and with the icon get both buffs.
I think its pretty clear that Possessed are only getting the keyword Slaanesh but are not actually recieving a mark and thus cannot benefit from fights first or +1 to hit if buying an Icon.
Tho this would be a neat clarification/buff for people playing EC or maybe WE when the book comes out if maybe this was intended.
MoS confers Slaanesh Keyword
Being EC also confers Slaanesh keyword to all units that either have undivided keyword or no other keyword
Possessed cant get MoS but can recieve the Slaanesh keyword if in EC and can buy an icon.
Guy seems to think that they then get the MoS and with the icon get both buffs.
I think its pretty clear that Possessed are only getting the keyword Slaanesh but are not actually recieving a mark and thus cannot benefit from fights first or +1 to hit if buying an Icon.
Tho this would be a neat clarification/buff for people playing EC or maybe WE when the book comes out if maybe this was intended.
What is the exact wording for taking a chaos icon ? or what page is it covered on in the book so I can check it myself.
dan2026 wrote: How are people using Terminators now?
If at all?
I think I am going to go with 10 Terminators with 2 Chainfists, 4 Powerfists and 4 combi-meltas (that's how my models are built), Black Rune, Mark of Slaanesh supported by a Slaaneshi Sorcerer in Terminator Armor with Veilbreaker Plate possibly with Merciless Overseer to overclock shooting. The idea is to teleport them Turn 1 right in my opponent's face and possibly use Tip of the Spear for re-roll charge if I need extra AP in melee. With Death Hex and Delightful Agonies from the Sorcerer to get the most out of my melee weapons and shore of defense should my Terminators fail their charge (twice).
I really like this super aggressive plan to get your terms in there and kinda road block the enemy early on. Been building lists with warptime just to get the terms up the midboard as fast as possible T1 but just taking veilbreaker might be more effective. Qs tho
Do you find it hard to keep your sorc alive when he goes in there to?
Whats the rest of your list? Can they effectively reach your terms by T2/3?
I fully expect the Sorcerer to be destroyed Turn 2 if my Terminators get into melee. At that point, the Sorcerer has done its job. If the Terminators fail to charge, the Sorcerer will have Look Out, Sir! until the Terminator Squad is depleted. Which depends on how many resources my opponent puts into them. I will consider it a nicety if the Terminators remain for use Turn 2.
Haarken and 17 Raptors, Land Raider, 10 Khorne Chainsword Legionaries and a Rhino, 5 Bolter and Autocannon Legionaries x2, Las Cannon Havocs.Almost the whole army is designed to be highly mobile and or have some reach. Its weakness is everything wants to be in a deathstar, creating basically 3-4 super units. I doubt it is optimal, but my last 4 games, lack of speed and long range shooting has been my crippling weaknesses. Next game, I absolutely want to not have that be the case.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Abaddon absolutely has to get into combat. So I would agree with any and all methods to get him into combat. However, I would raise one point. If you plan to deep strike him in (be it from a dreadclaw or by warpstrike), then a good player will see what you are doing a mile away. And a good player will know how powerful he is in close combat too.
Putting him in a dreadclaw is interesting because turn 1 its coming down. I don't own any forgeworld so I am assuming he can go into a dreadclaw in the first place, but if you are doing that, you will probably put another unit in there as well. (You might as well). And now we are talking about hundreds upon hundreds of points all in one single dreadclaw waiting to come down on turn 1. This is the same issue with deep striking Abaddon. You will likely deep strike him alongside terminators and obliterators. It requires a certain deep strike footprint and any good player can see it coming a mile away.
Considering its easily one third or more of your army deep striking in at one spot. A good opponent WILL screen as if the game win/loss depended on it. (Because it likely will).
I feel like given how durable we can make a big block of terminators or possessed. Applying extreme pressure to the mid board by moving them up the board turn 1 along with Abaddon is how I would do this. Yes, it sounds slow. But Black legion has some interesting subtle tricks and we have warptime as well.
Black Legion has the Veilbreaker plate relic. Its literally veil of time on a terminator model. We don't need a transport or to deepstrike. We can literally turn 1 veil of time a block of "core" terminators right up the board. Now, how will Abbadon get there? Well, we can warp time him up. This is why warptime is still useful even if you can't charge if you cast it. Abbadon that advances along with warptime cast on him will go 12+d6 inches up the board. That's literally like a flying DP.
So, veilbreaker plate a big block of 10 terminators up the board, and warptime Abbadon right up along with them. Now turn 1, we already have a massive force up the board, a terminator character, and Abaddon with them. The good thing about this is we start off hidden. Any time we want, we can activate this strategy. On any turn! Not just turn 1 or 2 or 3. The other good thing about using this strategy is that we don't waste Abaddon's awesome command phase buffs. He is still on the table to hand out his great buffs.
Another trick that Black Legion has. For one CP, we can use "Confluence of Traitors" to have any one of our units gain an extra other legion trait for one battle round. This is soooo good because it opens up 8 other possible legion traits we can add to one unit. Want a unit to advance and charge? Add the Red Corsairs trait to it. Want it to have fight upon death? Add Creation of Bile. Want it to be super tanky? Add Iron Warriors on a unit of Nurgle and Cast Grand Father's Blessing (Now only wound on 4s, and cannot reroll wounds). Lots of MW incoming from a psychic heavy army? Add the World Bearer's Trait for a 5+ FNP against MW.
What clever ideas. But deep striking Abaddon seems more efficient.
I'm in the early phases of putting together a melee list to test the new Codex. My main concern is getting the jump on shooty, non-Knight armies. Black Legion has some interesting beta strike possibilities worth considering.
Start the game with a Terminator CL with Veilbreaker Plate, Mutants / Torments, a melee Helbrute, and whatever else on the board. Second turn, deep strike Abaddon plus Terminators and have the CL teleport with the Helbrute while the Mutants seize objectives. Opponent can't ignore the mutants, they regenerate unless the unit is wiped out. So the Terminators don't have to deal with as much focus fire.
This gets more interesting if the Terminators are allied Blightlords and there was also a Lord of Contagion or something there for additional buffs.
I can't find the veilbreaker plate anywhere in the new codex. I'm aware that battlescribe lets you select it as a relic but I couldn't locate it in the physical book at all. Auspex Tactics also does not mention it in the new book review.
I can't find the veilbreaker plate anywhere in the new codex. I'm aware that battlescribe lets you select it as a relic but I couldn't locate it in the physical book at all. Auspex Tactics also does not mention it in the new book review.
Black Legion relic - page 81
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: Also, on the subject on legionares. If its for a shooty backfield unit to hold an objective, you could just use an actual shooty unit like a Havoc squad, or a rubric shooty squad. You don't need the obsec unit per se for a backfield objective. So actual shooty units like rubrics or havocs will do the shooting better than legionaires squads trying to be shooty, and since its in the backfield, being obsec is not quite so important.
As Scactha pointed out, Legionaries are if you want an obsec unit that needs to get into harm's way. Like if you want obsec to contest or claim a midfield objective. Cultists obviously would be toast in such situations and easily picked off even with very incidental fire. Legionares at least has some chances to survive, especially if you have other units alongside or in front of them.
Yea, people tend to under estimate how difficult it is to remove marines these days.
MoS confers Slaanesh Keyword
Being EC also confers Slaanesh keyword to all units that either have undivided keyword or no other keyword
Possessed cant get MoS but can recieve the Slaanesh keyword if in EC and can buy an icon.
Guy seems to think that they then get the MoS and with the icon get both buffs.
I think its pretty clear that Possessed are only getting the keyword Slaanesh but are not actually recieving a mark and thus cannot benefit from fights first or +1 to hit if buying an Icon.
Tho this would be a neat clarification/buff for people playing EC or maybe WE when the book comes out if maybe this was intended.
What is the exact wording for taking a chaos icon ? or what page is it covered on in the book so I can check it myself.
MoS confers Slaanesh Keyword
Being EC also confers Slaanesh keyword to all units that either have undivided keyword or no other keyword
Possessed cant get MoS but can recieve the Slaanesh keyword if in EC and can buy an icon.
Guy seems to think that they then get the MoS and with the icon get both buffs.
I think its pretty clear that Possessed are only getting the keyword Slaanesh but are not actually recieving a mark and thus cannot benefit from fights first or +1 to hit if buying an Icon.
Tho this would be a neat clarification/buff for people playing EC or maybe WE when the book comes out if maybe this was intended.
What is the exact wording for taking a chaos icon ? or what page is it covered on in the book so I can check it myself.
Emperor's Children Legion Rules grants the SLAANESH keyword to units that cannot take marks.
The Mark of Slaanesh grants the SLAANESH keyword to units with <CHAOS UNDIVIDED>.
But only the Mark of Slaanesh provides acess to the Slaanesh ICON, it you can't take the MARK then you don't benefit from Fight First.
Yeah, I think I agree. Just getting a keyword doesn't mean you receive the benefits of that chaos mark unless you specifically paid the points for that chaos mark.
I am gradually adjusting my thinking a bit. Yes our shooting might not be the best nor the most efficient, but I feel that we would benefit from having some shooting at least.
There are a lot of situations where shooting helps. Say you want to put pressure on one flank. You can pile all your shooting into that flank plus whatever you can charge in, goes in. Or you can clear out one mid board objective if opponent places just one cheap unit on it as long as your shooting is decent.
And there are some planes that are pretty deadly, and short of shooting them, trying to use that one or two flying units we have to charge and melee them to death is just not ideal. Plus if your opponent is skilled, he will know how to keep his planes away from your charge range.
Plus there are some sorts of move block situations that are better resolved if we clear the cheap move blocking unit via shooting rather than charging it.
A pure melee army is very predictable. All of our infantry outside of possessed move 6 inches. Most of the time, our opponent can see where we are massing towards, where our pressure will be coming from. He can then keep out of charge range, move block with a throwaway unit, etc.
So, I am coming round to the fact that we do need some shooting. And not just light shooting, but anti armour shooting too. Imagine after a rhino or raider unloads their cargo, it zips over to a relatively distant midboard objective and just sits there. Its a super cheap transport, but if we brought zero anti tank guns, it would keep scoring that objective for the rest of the game.
Even some CSM on CSM matches. Say a world eaters force loads up on rhinos and comes at us. If your force is nothing except melee units. Then the world eaters force immediately has the advantage. You have no shooting that can pop those Rhinos. You charge his Rhinos and kill it. Now his turn, he gets to charge you with all his berserkers that piled out. In a melee on melee matchup, the one that charges first usually has the advantage.
So yeah, even though I think our shooting isn't great. I do think it would be good to have some. Be it from Havocs, or Vindicators, Predator Tanks, Obliterators, Predator Tanks, Noise Marines with Blast Masters, Forgefiends, that one heavy weapon a legionaire squad can bring, That Land Raider that doubles as a transport, or even a Lord of Skulls. The presence of some anti-tank shooting would add a lot of flexibility to our army.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Yeah, I think I agree. Just getting a keyword doesn't mean you receive the benefits of that chaos mark unless you specifically paid the points for that chaos mark.
I am gradually adjusting my thinking a bit. Yes our shooting might not be the best nor the most efficient, but I feel that we would benefit from having some shooting at least.
There are a lot of situations where shooting helps. Say you want to put pressure on one flank. You can pile all your shooting into that flank plus whatever you can charge in, goes in. Or you can clear out one mid board objective if opponent places just one cheap unit on it as long as your shooting is decent.
And there are some planes that are pretty deadly, and short of shooting them, trying to use that one or two flying units we have to charge and melee them to death is just not ideal. Plus if your opponent is skilled, he will know how to keep his planes away from your charge range.
Plus there are some sorts of move block situations that are better resolved if we clear the cheap move blocking unit via shooting rather than charging it.
A pure melee army is very predictable. All of our infantry outside of possessed move 6 inches. Most of the time, our opponent can see where we are massing towards, where our pressure will be coming from. He can then keep out of charge range, move block with a throwaway unit, etc.
So, I am coming round to the fact that we do need some shooting. And not just light shooting, but anti armour shooting too. Imagine after a rhino or raider unloads their cargo, it zips over to a relatively distant midboard objective and just sits there. Its a super cheap transport, but if we brought zero anti tank guns, it would keep scoring that objective for the rest of the game.
Even some CSM on CSM matches. Say a world eaters force loads up on rhinos and comes at us. If your force is nothing except melee units. Then the world eaters force immediately has the advantage. You have no shooting that can pop those Rhinos. You charge his Rhinos and kill it. Now his turn, he gets to charge you with all his berserkers that piled out. In a melee on melee matchup, the one that charges first usually has the advantage.
So yeah, even though I think our shooting isn't great. I do think it would be good to have some. Be it from Havocs, or Vindicators, Predator Tanks, Obliterators, Predator Tanks, Noise Marines with Blast Masters, Forgefiends, that one heavy weapon a legionaire squad can bring or even a Lord of Skulls. It would add a lot of flexibility to our army.
Agreed, Curze brought up the Rapier a few pages back and Ive been throwing them in to a few lists because they are pretty cheap and can be thrown in lists that are struggling to make points. 110 for 3 shots at S10 -4 and D3+3. Unfortunately it is rather slow and the range isnt the greatest at 36 but it is small and can hide behind terrain very easily.
Not to derail, because I do think a ranged presence is important to not just get manipulated by the opponent.
Just a note for any1 interested in running Daemonkins, DiscoLords, Possessed and Warp talons can really get turned up damage wise if taking the malefic power Infernal Power. In regards to MSU Possessed/Warptalons, you might beable to trade with things you have no buisness trading with. In EC you get an additional -1 AP with this combo. EC also give you a greater variety of ways to slingshot those units up the board utilizing Honor the prince twice in a turn and the advance and charge Prayer. You can HtP one unit and HtP + Adv and Chg another. All Daemonkin can be targeted with HtP, but Daemonkin (but the disco lord can) cannot receive the advance and charge prayer.
Any hit rolls of a 6 will also auto wound (counting as a 6) giving you -1 AP for that hit in EC. If in Slaughter then those 6s on hits will also explode.
If you taking a loaded up DiscoLord with Flames of spite. All attacks that hit on a 6 will explode (if in slaughter) will auto wound get -1Ap and cause MWs, you will get rerolls to wound (on any that didnt auto wound) and any 6s to wound will again be -1 AP and cause MWs. You get 14 attacks to fish for any and all 6s, +D3 attacks if you take the Elixir which I think is probably a good idea.
Can also do this with a DP, if you want some extra Psyker presence/mobility, if given the twin Daemon weapon. 7 attacks +2D3. I think less damage but more utility with ability to cast spells. NVM THIS DOENST WORK.[u] DP cannot receive the Infernal power benefit because he is a Daemon and a Daemon Prince but not a Daemonkin. Bruh....
Sry I digress but I get so excited with these combos. I realize that we dont necessarily need more CC potential but its for sure there. Will have to workout tonight how much damage these guys do on average.
Fairly fresh to Chaos in general, really focusing in on the faction this edition with an EC army (A legion I've wanted to make for ages but just never got around to it. Mostly due to the Chaos range at the time not being very good looking + serious lack of EC specific models *cough Noise Marines*
So my take has always been a balance of shooty and choppy in most armies I've played. I'll be banking on Oblits and Noise Marines as my main shooting support, possibly tossing in a squad of Havocs.
Noise Marines feel like a decent swiss army knife shooting unit now. Sonic guns not being absolute trash is fantastic and being able to make use of the Wantons pretty much all game is solid too. Blast Masters are great as an addition hidden 'las cannon' type weapon that can fire off at a more suitable target while the rest roar away at their ideal targets. Being able to just romp around and ignoring most modifiers due to EC perks is pretty strong. MSU of these guys should be able to put out a lot of firepower to deal with even other MEQ with their volume of fire and increased damage up close.
Oblits and Havocs feel like your typical backrow campers to fire at whatever they need. Oblits being incredibly flexible due to their weapon profile or can be warped in to ambush someone (And not being slouches in Melee they can double as an ambush unit to boot).
My army currently lacks direction for my punchy side but I'm thinking a couple Helbrutes could be fun even if not 'competitive'. Might make em Sonic Helbrutes with Legends rules (Since I don't play in tournaments) to be not only punchy but shooty as they lumber their way up the board.
Not as keen on many Daemon Engines though since they kinda require a bit too much 'babysitting' by dedicated HQ support.
Punchy Termies could be fun as a 'here we are!' kind of threat to start raking the backlines or simply cut off an approaching unit I don't like, etc.
But I guess I haven't really added anything enlightening to the conversation, more or less spitballing my thoughts on how I've been constructing my first 2k point list and how I'm trying to cover my bases.
Shooting is everything in this game. It's force concentration and can't be chaffed. The fact that they've shoehorned csm into a linear rush style is very bad. Id like to revisit this in 6 months and see how the optimism has faired.
My prediction is land raiders will still be on shelves immortal terminators will be nerfed while the book shows it's lack of depth and longevity. Without some new supplements and some timely erratas that is.
ph34r wrote: My aspiring champions had combi-bolters so I need to give them new weapons.
What would the best melee weapon to give them?
Daemon blade? Tainted chain axe? Power fist? Those three seem all better than normal power weapons, right?
I like power fist, because its more versatile. Str 8, AP3, D2 can handle almost anything, be it vehicle or infantry. And there are some legions where the -1 to hit is not such a big deal. Like Black legion gets +1 to hit if they charge anyway, emperor's children don't care, and world bearers get reroll to hits in melee.
ph34r wrote: My aspiring champions had combi-bolters so I need to give them new weapons.
What would the best melee weapon to give them?
Daemon blade? Tainted chain axe? Power fist? Those three seem all better than normal power weapons, right?
Daemon blade becomes a good performer when stacked with mark of khorne and an icon, but that requires 30 points sinking into a troops unit (spending that much and you may as well take a unit of chosen). Power fist is old reliable for just having to pay for 1 upgrade and it will get work done. The 5 point options are all interchangeable really, and might struggle to compete with just going double chainsword for free.
It might sound a bit odd, but wasting a CP on trophies to give a generic champ the blade of the relentless or the black mace might not be a terrible idea as those both seem quite high performance but wouldn't make much difference on any units that are already combat specialists.
Played my first game with iron warriors against orks this week and was pleasantly surprised with how things went.
Disco lord with the flames of spite WL trait is utterly amazing. Took down multiple units on his own despite IW not being particularly synergistic towards combat. Run him next to a maulerfiend and buff the mauler up every turn actually makes the mauler amazing in combat.
I went with the tactic of throwing teen terminators with Mark of nurgle, black rune of damnation and the dark apostle giving them illusory supplication and using the bastion warlord traits to make the terminators obsec. Those guys are basically unkillable and held the middle well and soaked up alot of fire. Hovering just behind them were a squad of chosen and warp talons for counter charging.
The rest of the army pushed the flanks and I left a squad of Havoc's and cultists on my backfield objective to hold it.
Legionnaires wise I run 2 X 5 man squads with a champion with a PF which adds a nice little bit of spice if they get in combat.
Overall I'm enjoying the book and looking forward to trying new stuff.
I tried out my Lord of skulls the other day playing with Iron Warriors legion. He did surprisingly well (despite costing 575 points). He had a warpsmith advancing alongside him with architect of destruction giving him exploding 6s to hit and +1 to hit with his guns every turn. And I used the IW strategem methodical annihilation every round so that his blast weapons would count as double models when shooting.
10 men squads are quite common these days, and that strategem gives your blast weapons full shots on any squad with 6 men in it. His skull hurler was doing 12 shots and his ichor cannon was doing 9 shots on the big squads (and with exploding 6s and hitting on 2s). And these are all AP3, flat damage 2 or damage 3 shots. So it was pretty devastating.
He dominated one flank while using his shooting to help thin the ranks everywhere else. He is expensive in points, but in an Iron Warrior's list, I think he can work.
I think running him up on one flank is better than running him in straight center. His gun's range are so far they reach most of the board anyway. So, he doesn't really need to be in the center where every single enemy gun can reach him. And usually, a more lightly defended flank may not have so much concentration of enemy units and so he should have an easier time crushing that flank and then using his long range guns to help out everywhere else. I ran him with Ichor Cannon (48 inches range) and Skullhurler (60 inch range).
And he can fall back and charge, and fall back and shoot too. So, its really quite hard to tarpit him. And considering he moves 10 inches and shoots at least 48 inches, he has a really long reach!
Thanks for those field reports guys. Any particular thoughts about the Iron Warriors aspect of things? I don't run a Lord of Skulls but I have daemon engines, obliterators, havocs, normal stuff like that.
I was looking into shooting squads... Before, I would take 5 guys with a lascannon for 85 points. Ok, now those same guys are 105 points, roughly a 25% drop in firepower per point. They can get a psyker book though, and maybe buff 4 havoc lascannons with that, but you still end up with:
125p 5 legionnaires, psyker, lascannon
responsible for 2/3 of a lascannon hit from their personal shooting, and BS 3+ to 2+ is a 25% increase for 4 havoc lascannons 60% of the time when the spell casts, for another 0.6 lascannon hits worth, so 1 1/4 hits. 100 points per hit.
145 5 havocs, 4 lascannons
responsible for 2 2/3 hits with the lascannons. 54 points per hit, just about twice as good firepower for the price as the legionnaires even when they are doing a very useful buff.
Is this a reasonable "combo" to run or is this kinda pointless to take legionnaires to do shooting now, and one should just take another unit of havocs (or 2 more units even)
It's an interesting idea for sure. I think a single heavy weapon in a squad of legionaries could be decent as long as the other dudes had chainsword so they could fight well if attacked or could go on the offensive themselves.
I definitely think close combat legionnaires is the best way to go, squads of 5 work and not the big ten man's who are boosted with marks which make them too expensive.
The point with squads with a thrown in heavy weapon is not efficiency but rather dispersion. A focused unit of 4 Lascannons might be in a bad spot to shoot some targets, while 4 individual LasCannons might have 3/4 in range. This works great in GSC due to the cheaper body count and higher density of special weapons per squad. But for CSM this simply is not the case. The tax of 4 more marines per heavy/special weapon as well as the inability of choosing 2 of the same weapon turn down the potential of legionaries. It’s a shame because I like the concept of customisable Legionary squads, especially as the rules of marls and icons are well designed.
Yeah, I think if you intended to take a legionaire squad to sit in the backfield anyway, because maybe you want something more substantial than a 10 man cultist to babysit and protect a master of possession. Then throwing a heavy weapon on that 5 man legionaire squad for 10 more points is fine.
But adding another 5 more bodies and then mark and icon just to make a mostly bolter unit more shooty is just not efficient. That would make the squad over 200 points. At that point, you might as well take a Havoc squad for cheaper and shootier.
So, its all about the role you want them to do.
I suppose... you could do it anyway for the second heavy weapon (although it cannot be the same). Have a full 10 man legionaire squad in the backfield with one lascannon and one missile launcher. Give it tzeentch and icon for the +1AP. Now your lascannon is AP4 and your missile launcher is AP3 and your bolters are AP1. Give the squad a balefire tome because at this point, you might as well. So, now you have 2 good shooting weapons and a psyker embedded into a squad with 14 abalative wounds that is obsec sitting in your backfield. Put it on the second floor of a ruin, within 3 inches of a backfield objective so that it has great shooting angles on lots of the area. So, you have now spent 220 points on this squad. But, hopefully, it can survive for all 5 turns while letting you shoot those 2 weapons and cast your psychic spell all 5 turns. If your opponent can be baited into shooting stuff at it, that's great, because you have 7 bodies with AOC sitting in cover plus mark of tzeentch to absorb it all. All this plus you can now have your Master of possession with liber hereticus relic sit near this squad in the backfield also casting all his buff spells without getting denied. The 14 bolter shots will be AP1, with the option of demon shell to become AP2 and 30 inch range. Maybe reminding your opponent about that threat will make him more likely to target the squad.
So, in conclusion, for 250 points, we don't have a very efficient shooty unit, but we accept that because this unit is not just shooting, it is also performing several roles all in one.
1. It does have 2 anti-tank decent guns.
2. Its a valid anti flyer threat. That one missile launcher guy is going to threaten fliers with the missile sttrategem and the AP4 lascannon is a threat to fliers too.
3. Its obsec on your backfield that will be very hard to remove via shooting. Its 10 bodies of 20W with AOC, in cover, plus the mark of tzeentch to absorb one failed save. You could lose 7 or 8 bodies and then hide it behind obscuring, and it would still be obsec on your backfield. It might even attract shooting which would be great.
4. You can use it as a bodyguard and to give look out sir to a backfield character who is happy to sit in the backfield. This refers to any psyker whom we loaded up with buff psychics. In particular, that master of possession with liber hereticus relic who has a 24 inch range on his psychic anyway.
5. You can put a psyker in it with balefire tome to give prescience to another unit that would benefit more from it, although if you don't have any other unit to give that to, giving it to itself is fine too. You now also have access to Skein of Fate and that is an actually good psychic that another tzeentch unit will benefit from.
6. You have 7 abalative bodies that can be stabbed with the sacrificial knife from the master of possession just in case you need to get that key psychic off in a key turn (be it Pact of Flesh or Delightful agonies)
7. The 7 remaining boltguns are still 14 AP1 shots downfield at chaff. 14 AP1 is still ok.
So, given all these roles it performs, maybe ... maybe that's worth it being a not so efficient shooting unit for 250 points ... ? urrggghhh.... 250 points just sounds like a lot ... For the same points, you can have one squad of lascannon Havocs and one squad of 10 cultists and still have 50 points leftover ... Or you could have a squad of Havocs and a squad of Rubric marines. And so now, you have the same tzeentch psyker, more resilience, better shooting.... all for no obsec, which honestly, you care less about since its a backfield objective... lol
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ph34r wrote: Thanks for those field reports guys. Any particular thoughts about the Iron Warriors aspect of things? I don't run a Lord of Skulls but I have daemon engines, obliterators, havocs, normal stuff like that.
You could probably replace the Lord of skulls quite easily with a bunch of other stuff. Its not a one on one replacement. But it will come close. For 575 points, you can get a Lord Discordant (175), Two Vindicators (260), A Mauler Fiend (140).
Your close combat output will be higher than the Lord of skulls. Your shooting will be shorter range, slightly inferior but kinda close? One baleflamer (2D3+2) hits plus 24 inch range 6+2D3 shots Str 10 AP4 (D6 damage) from the 2 vindicators. At this point you could probably skip the warp smith save the 80 points for something else. And the whole package consists of 45 wounds, of which 24 of those wounds are T8 as well.
So yeah, you could totally replace the Lord of skulls with alternatives if you wanted to. I just happened to have a Lord of Skulls and it was so cool to actually have it contribute in a significant way in a match play game. The Lord of skulls is "easier to play". Its just one big model. You have less thinking to do, and your models won't get in the way of each other.
How has Master of Executions been in everyone's testing? On paper, with warlord traits, marks, and a relic, he seems ridiculous for the points. I guess I'm just wondering how often he's actually getting into combat.
l0k1 wrote: How has Master of Executions been in everyone's testing? On paper, with warlord traits, marks, and a relic, he seems ridiculous for the points. I guess I'm just wondering how often he's actually getting into combat.
I think I just don't quite know how to use him properly. It feels to me like I should place him behind my big terminator bloc. But then, if my terminator bloc gets charged, I feel like I don't dare to HI him into combat even with his 6 inch HI because opponent will fight first and he dies so easily. (Any unit that dares to charge my termi bloc has to be a melee unit with some sort of melee power). He just dies so easily.
And then if I use him as a counter charge against something already locked in combat. The issue is then I have to start with him, otherwise, opponent can interrupt and again, he will die on the interrupt. Very often, there might be more than one charge and melee combat going on. Having him go first doesn't necessarily feel ideal somehow. He is killy, but its not like he is going to solo an entire melee unit. And is he as killy as say Abaddon? Is he even as killy as that 10 man terminator bloc charging into combat?
If he was the only one charging into combat, then it would be a no brainer. But often, there might be multiple charges and combat going off. And then, I rather fight with the one that would cause the most damage so that the strike back is minimized. So say I multi charge two units with my terminator block, and the master of executions also joins in and charges one of those units. Isn't it just better for my terminator bloc to swing first and cripple or kill most of those two units as opposed to having my master of executions swing first instead. I mean, I don't know what kind of loadout other people are using, but can one Master of execution really kill more than a whole block of ten terminators swinging? (doubt).
I tried him as a melee anti tank threat because with the warlord trait hatred incarnate, he can go to strength 8. So I charged him into an ironclad Dreadnaught. He failed to kill it... I mean, some MW went through, but all his damage 2 then got reduced to 1, and some got saved. So, the dreadnaught was left alive... I am really not sure how I am supposed to play him. I mean, if he is meant to kill infantry, then surely that big bloc of terminators he is with can do that totally fine without him already because that unit has like 40 attacks as opposed to his 7 attacks ...
Maybe he would be good in a creation of bile list because even if he dies, he can strike back... Or maybe in an Emperor's Children list because they can make a unit fight last. So if he can then strike without fear of being hit on the interrupt. But so far, I just haven't been able to get much out of him in black legion or in Iron Warriors. I mean, I had one game where I charged him into just two plague marines with special weapons, and my opponent interrupted and killed him... because he is literally just a power army dude with 5 wounds ... And yet, even if I replayed that round, I don't think I would have changed my order of battle to have him go first. I mean, would I rather have Abaddon fight first and cut down 8 or 9 plague marines, or my Chosen Squad with their dozens of attacks also mow through a plague marine squad, or would I have my master of executions kill two plague marines...
Even if my master of execution charged into ten plague marines. If I let him go first, how much damage would he do? 7 attacks reroll everything to fish for sixes, I think mathematically would result in around 2 sixes, so 4MW. Even if I assume the remaining 5 attacks all hit. That's 3.33 wounds and then 2.22 penetrate. And then the plague marines's disgustingly resilient would have kicked in so, that would end up killing just one more plague marine. So, letting my Master of executions go first... he would have killed 3 plague marines ... And then, 7 remaining plague marines with all of their special weapons could have interrupted and done some serious damage back, just because I wanted my master of executions to do something ...
Eldenfirefly wrote: So, in conclusion, for 250 points, we don't have a very efficient shooty unit, but we accept that because this unit is not just shooting, it is also performing several roles all in one.
1. It does have 2 anti-tank decent guns.
2. Its a valid anti flyer threat. That one missile launcher guy is going to threaten fliers with the missile sttrategem and the AP4 lascannon is a threat to fliers too.
3. Its obsec on your backfield that will be very hard to remove via shooting. Its 10 bodies of 20W with AOC, in cover, plus the mark of tzeentch to absorb one failed save. You could lose 7 or 8 bodies and then hide it behind obscuring, and it would still be obsec on your backfield. It might even attract shooting which would be great.
4. You can use it as a bodyguard and to give look out sir to a backfield character who is happy to sit in the backfield. This refers to any psyker whom we loaded up with buff psychics. In particular, that master of possession with liber hereticus relic who has a 24 inch range on his psychic anyway.
5. You can put a psyker in it with balefire tome to give prescience to another unit that would benefit more from it, although if you don't have any other unit to give that to, giving it to itself is fine too. You now also have access to Skein of Fate and that is an actually good psychic that another tzeentch unit will benefit from.
6. You have 7 abalative bodies that can be stabbed with the sacrificial knife from the master of possession just in case you need to get that key psychic off in a key turn (be it Pact of Flesh or Delightful agonies)
7. The 7 remaining boltguns are still 14 AP1 shots downfield at chaff. 14 AP1 is still ok.
So, given all these roles it performs, maybe ... maybe that's worth it being a not so efficient shooting unit for 250 points ... ? urrggghhh.... 250 points just sounds like a lot ... For the same points, you can have one squad of lascannon Havocs and one squad of 10 cultists and still have 50 points leftover ... Or you could have a squad of Havocs and a squad of Rubric marines. And so now, you have the same tzeentch psyker, more resilience, better shooting.... all for no obsec, which honestly, you care less about since its a backfield objective... lol
I think this is a brilliant walk through of what Legionnaires offer. The game about using resources better than the opponent, so it depends, but in a nutshell what you weigh is specialization vs generalization. I prefer some generalist units myself in an army for reasons laid out above, but the average 40k player I believe rather picks specialists. Reason there I think is the obsession with "trades". It´s about how you strategize.
On the topic of shooting units I want to raise a hand for Helbrutes due to the Fire Frenzy Strat. Damage Reduction coupled with a shoot again strat is a great combo. Add the fact that a Fist with Heavy Flamer on the other arm makes brutes very versatile. (One squished Hesperax to death my last game)
l0k1 wrote: How has Master of Executions been in everyone's testing? On paper, with warlord traits, marks, and a relic, he seems ridiculous for the points. I guess I'm just wondering how often he's actually getting into combat.
Mortal Wound spam is what you want him for. Nothing else. He's not a great challenge machine.
The MOC absolutely seems to be a MW dispenser. Against other MEQ he might not be overly glamorous. Especially Nurgle variants. He seems to be very well suited to single handedly nuke chaff units.
Like if he's with termies and the termies want to go punch something big he's more like "You guys go on ahead, I'll be riiiight there" to then go bully another unit solo due to the amount of choppy he'll dispense + mortal wounds o ntop of that while the weaker unit likely won't touch him.
His ability to solo other characters is kind of there but feels like a potential trap. On paper it seems solid enough to do so but in practice I'd probably not do so unless it were a fight I KNOW he can solo.
I feel he'll be slowly moving/advancing up the board on foot until he can try to get in combat. For the points + mark + CP investment, he's not bad at all. But I compare him to a judicar and never see people run those. When looking at the other elites available, I think he falls to the wayside.
l0k1 wrote: I feel he'll be slowly moving/advancing up the board on foot until he can try to get in combat. For the points + mark + CP investment, he's not bad at all. But I compare him to a judicar and never see people run those. When looking at the other elites available, I think he falls to the wayside.
Judiciars make better bodyguards though since they can make a unit fight last. That's a VERY good ability.
Melevolence wrote: The MOC absolutely seems to be a MW dispenser. Against other MEQ he might not be overly glamorous. Especially Nurgle variants. He seems to be very well suited to single handedly nuke chaff units.
Like if he's with termies and the termies want to go punch something big he's more like "You guys go on ahead, I'll be riiiight there" to then go bully another unit solo due to the amount of choppy he'll dispense + mortal wounds o ntop of that while the weaker unit likely won't touch him.
His ability to solo other characters is kind of there but feels like a potential trap. On paper it seems solid enough to do so but in practice I'd probably not do so unless it were a fight I KNOW he can solo.
Hmmm... but here is the thing, if someone threw a chaff unit near my Terminator bloc, its most likely to move block it. Then I would charge it with my terminator bloc anyway because I want to pile in, kill it, and then consolidate 3 inches to get extra movement. So, then everyone who can charge it, would charge it. And that's assuming the chaff unit did its move block correctly and truly did move block me.
Otherwise, why would there be a chaff unit so close to my terminator bloc ? (For my master of executions to charge). And also, if his only use is to kill a chaff unit... that kind of makes the master of executions very specialised...
On the MW machine thing. I sort of agree, but I math it out. Even with giving my MOE hatred incarnate warlord trait (so he rerolls all his hits), and fishing for 6s, a MOE will on average do two sixes even with full rerolls. So that's 4MW. Now, we could pile on even more CP to have him do even more. But at that point, you are now investing 2CP into a character that has no invul and dies fairly easily? 2CP is a big investment in the new Nephilim world. My question then would be, would that 2CP invested into another unit or another character do possibly even more ?
Given his fragility. My issue with the MOE is that he is a once and done missile that moves only 6 inches. You detach him away from the main infantry bloc protecting him, and he is likely dead the next turn. So he literally gets only one chance to do big things. Yet, he is ultimately limited to 6 or 7 attacks to do his big things. So how much can he truly achieve with his one shot glory?
Also, I just realised that Loyalty's reward on a bike unit is probably a better MW machine than the MOE. Loyalty's Reward makes your bolters or combi bolters become MW bolters. So, hits against imperium becomes MW and wounds against non-imperium becomes MW. Black legion gets +1 to hit shooting against closest unit it shoots. You are shooting at something with 2s to hit with exploding sixes from Wanton massacre or destruction. And your bikes are moving around 14 inches a turn and shooting at 24 inches. The relic would let you do easily 4MW per turn.
So, over the course of the game, if your bikes don't die. That one relic would let you do 16 to 20 MW over the whole game. This is surely better than the once and done nature of the MOE which is limited by his 6 inch move. So, I feel like if I wanted to spend 1 CP to make something a MW machine, I would rather spend it on my bikes instead of running a MOE and then trying to buff him up to become a MW machine.
BTW, I have tried loyalty's reward on a big bike unit before, and that relic is no joke. Easily 4 MW each turn.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Abaddon absolutely has to get into combat. So I would agree with any and all methods to get him into combat. However, I would raise one point. If you plan to deep strike him in (be it from a dreadclaw or by warpstrike), then a good player will see what you are doing a mile away. And a good player will know how powerful he is in close combat too.
...
Black Legion has the Veilbreaker plate relic. Its literally veil of time on a terminator model. We don't need a transport or to deepstrike. We can literally turn 1 veil of time a block of "core" terminators right up the board. Now, how will Abbadon get there? Well, we can warp time him up. This is why warptime is still useful even if you can't charge if you cast it. Abbadon that advances along with warptime cast on him will go 12+d6 inches up the board. That's literally like a flying DP.
So, veilbreaker plate a big block of 10 terminators up the board, and warptime Abbadon right up along with them. Now turn 1, we already have a massive force up the board, a terminator character, and Abaddon with them. The good thing about this is we start off hidden. Any time we want, we can activate this strategy. On any turn! Not just turn 1 or 2 or 3. The other good thing about using this strategy is that we don't waste Abaddon's awesome command phase buffs. He is still on the table to hand out his great buffs.
I can't find the veilbreaker plate anywhere in the new codex. I'm aware that battlescribe lets you select it as a relic but I couldn't locate it in the physical book at all. Auspex Tactics also does not mention it in the new book review.
Its a black legion specific relic on page 81 on the codex.
Has any black legion players tried out this relic yet? I am now thinking on running say a 10-man black legion terminator bloc up the center with Abaddon, but with a Termie sorceror with warptime sneakily with them, and a plague marine squad or chosen squad behind them. So, opponent sees such a massive force come up the center. If he is smart, he will avoid that big blob and go somewhere else. Most of his forces will be diverted to the sides or one of the flanks.
Once he has committed his movement, and I see where his concentration of forces are at, then I move advance Abaddon 6+D6 inches. I also then activate the Veilbreaker plate and teleport the termie sorceror and my big block of termies to where his big concentration of forces are. My sorcereor will now also cast warptime on Abaddon to move him another 6 inches (It doesn't matter he can't charge this turn, because if my opponent was smart, he didn't put anything near Abaddon anyway). More importantly, Abaddon has now moved 12+D6 inches across the board and should be within 6 inches buff range of the big block of termies. (The big block has a big foootprint too, so it should be quite easy to string it out so that they are within buff range of Abby).
Now, Abby would have previously given all his command buffs to the termie squad, plus he can now share his aura of +1 charge to the termie squad. So, I get a 8 inch charge now straight into my opponent's biggest force concentration with full rerolls and he totally wouldn't be expecting it. And Abby will be following in one turn later.
Meanwhile, the chosen or plague marine squad behind can now move up to the vacant spot where the big ten man termie block originally was, and given the light resistance in that area, they should have no problems holding that area or even continuing their way onwards.
The one possible break point in this whole combo, is that the termie sorceror might fail his warptime cast (its WC 6). But you can mitigate this by running a venomcrawler up to 9 inches of him, and the termie Sorceror can also spend just 5 points to bring a chaos familiar. So he can then reroll this crucial psychic cast for free. In any case, if you can spread out your termie bloc enough such that even with a 7 inch move advance from Abaddon, he is within 6 inches of them, that's enough to give them the +1 charge aura buff.
EviscerationPlague wrote: He doesn't need to reroll all his hits, he needs to reroll all his wounds.
But isn't it his 6s to hit that do 2MW ? Why do we want to reroll his wounds? His base axe damage is just 2 damage. Or do you put flames of spite on him? That same flames on spite warlord trait on a Lord Discordant who has 14 attacks will do far more work than flames of spite on him.
BTW, my spawns are heroes now. They take more effort than opponent is willing to spend to kill. And even one spawn remaining can stay on an objective point to hold it while other units go out and do the killing.
EviscerationPlague wrote: He doesn't need to reroll all his hits, he needs to reroll all his wounds.
You want to reroll hits, when you roll 6s to hit the target suffers 2MWs and the attack sequence ends. With flames of spite you can reroll wound rolls to get 6s which cause 1MW plus normal damage. And with Ulocca the black every successful wound roll will also deal 1MW plus normal damage.
BTW, my spawns are heroes now. They take more effort than opponent is willing to spend to kill. And even one spawn remaining can stay on an objective point to hold it while other units go out and do the killing.
EviscerationPlague wrote: He doesn't need to reroll all his hits, he needs to reroll all his wounds.
You want to reroll hits, when you roll 6s to hit the target suffers 2MWs and the attack sequence ends. With flames of spite you can reroll wound rolls to get 6s which cause 1MW plus normal damage. And with Ulocca the black every successful wound roll will also deal 1MW plus normal damage.
BTW, my spawns are heroes now. They take more effort than opponent is willing to spend to kill. And even one spawn remaining can stay on an objective point to hold it while other units go out and do the killing.
Spawns are great, even on the offense.
He has a 2+ to hit already though. Rerolling wounds at the awkward S7 he hits at when he's already the better candidate for the Undivided Daemon relic makes better sense.
LeRufus wrote: How is it possible to teleport turn 1? Is attack through the warp eligible for first turn (unlike other reserves only in turn 2)
Thanks!
Teleport Strike is turn 2+ IIRC. Drop pod is one of a few (only?) ways to DS on turn one I believe.
There's lots of rules these days though, I'm probably forgetting something.
If you start on the table, you can teleport T1.
If you start off the table, you can't Deep Strike T1, with some few exceptions. Drop Pods and I think a GSC thing are the only ones, to my knowledge.
I just went through the codex again because i was wondering which units get the benefits of both rules of "Mark of Slaanesh" (so the fight first and the +1 to Hit)
Now I think i made a mistake / wrong train of thought or is it correct that only these get both bonuses:
- Chosen (Can get Mark and Icon)
- Legionaries (Can get Mark and Icon)
- Chaos biker (Can get Mark and Icon)
All the others (Terminators, Master of Execution etc etc etc) only get the "fights first" bonus as they cant get an Icon, correct?
I still try to get my head around it ^^'
Thanks... I appreciate the nooby help...
Can we talk about Lord Discordant loadouts? I saw on the youtube channel of Red Patch that you can create a near unkillable Lord Discordant. It could withstand an amazing 48 melta shots and possibly not die.
It had the world eaters warlord trait true berzerker (halves incoming damage) and the relic gorget of eternal hate (+1 armor save, 4++, explodes on death). Use the Infernal Engine strategem to further reduce damage by 1, and 4 damage shots gets reduced to only 1 damage, and even 6 damage shots gets reduced to just 2 damage.
It got me thinking. Black Legion can also replicate this Lord Discordant because we also have a warlord trait indomitable that halves incoming damage.
A poster Rogerio earlier also mentioned about having great success with a Lord Discordant with flames of spite warlord trait.
What other good combinations of relics and/or warlord traits are great for a Lord Discordant ?
If you want an Invincible Discordant, you have to go with Iron Warriors. They get the Unyielding Metal Warlord Trait and then you can go Gorget or Fleshmetal Exoskeleton.
EviscerationPlague wrote: If you want an Invincible Discordant, you have to go with Iron Warriors. They get the Unyielding Metal Warlord Trait and then you can go Gorget or Fleshmetal Exoskeleton.
Hmm, Fleshmetal exoskeleton doesn't work on Lord Discordants. Its infantry only. But unyielding metal is a cool way to give 5+ FNP to a LD!
An IW disco lord with unyielding metal, mark of nurgle and mutated invigoration has T8. S8 weapons will wound him on 5s, anything below S8 also on 5s. S9 wounds on 4s. With the gorget of eternal hate he gets a 4+ inv, reduces AP by 1 with AoC, and gets +1 from the gorget to his armour saving throw. And on top of that you get a 5+ FNP.
An IW disco lord with unyielding metal, mark of tzeentch and mutated invigoration has T8. Cast skeins on fate on him for 4+ inv. With the black rune anything below T8 will only wound on 6s. Against S8 its 5s, and S9 is 4s. And 5+ FNP.
If he ever loses wounds you can repair him with a warpsmith, and with pact of flesh.
Fast Attack
Venomcrawler [6 PL, 105pts]
Warp Talons [7 PL, 140pts]
Selections: Warp Talon Champion
4x Warp Talon
Selections: 4x Warp claws
Warp Talons [7 PL, 140pts]
Selections: Warp Talon Champion
4x Warp Talon
Selections: 4x Warp claws
Heavy Support
Forgefiend [8 PL, 160pts]
Selections: 2x Heavy hades autocannons, Daemon jaws
Havocs [8 PL, 160pts, -1CP]
Selections: Mark of Tzeentch
Havoc Champion
Selections: Astartes chainsword, Black Rune of Damnation, Boltgun, Trophies of the Long War
4x Havoc w/ lascannon
Selections: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Lascannon
Dedicated Transport
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]
Ofc it is Not maxed out or something like that, but it is my second Game with CSM since the new codex arrived. Thats why I am just testing stuff.
A little feedback would be awesome.
For those interested in building Emperors Children Noise Marines. As far as I know, what is currently available are the limited edition model, an out of stock FW conversion kit, and, assuming it is still available, old GW conversion kit that fit the previous Chaos Space Marines.
I received a 3d conversion kit from Pop Goes the Monkey for Sonic Blaster and Blastmasters. They fit exactly on the new Horus Heresy Marines. Rather than attach the bolter, the conversion kit attaches the Sonic weapons at the exact same spots. Zero additional work necessary (aside from ordering the conversion kit).
Not a great photo, but you can get the gist of the conversion kit.
JNAProductions wrote: If you start on the table, you can teleport T1.
If you start off the table, you can't Deep Strike T1, with some few exceptions. Drop Pods and I think a GSC thing are the only ones, to my knowledge.
Night Lords can as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think I just don't quite know how to use him properly. It feels to me like I should place him behind my big terminator bloc. But then, if my terminator bloc gets charged, I feel like I don't dare to HI him into combat even with his 6 inch HI because opponent will fight first and he dies so easily. (Any unit that dares to charge my termi bloc has to be a melee unit with some sort of melee power). He just dies so easily.
And then if I use him as a counter charge against something already locked in combat. The issue is then I have to start with him, otherwise, opponent can interrupt and again, he will die on the interrupt. Very often, there might be more than one charge and melee combat going on. Having him go first doesn't necessarily feel ideal somehow. He is killy, but its not like he is going to solo an entire melee unit. And is he as killy as say Abaddon? Is he even as killy as that 10 man terminator bloc charging into combat?
Positioning is everything here. The way your opponent moves models determines how much they could swing when the MoE pops in from the side.
The MoE should not base and instead should max the engagement range.
Now the opponent has a dilemma. They need to deal with the MoE. Terminators are pretty durable, but hit somewhat softly without a lot of upgrades. Additionally this can also force them to pick this fight first as well since you have a charging model that can alternate so if you have a key fight elsewhere you can drop an interrupt and screw the other charge. And if they fail to allocate enough to the MoE then things can go really badly for them.
If you HI into a knight, well, good night sweet prince.
Sarigar wrote: For those interested in building Emperors Children Noise Marines. As far as I know, what is currently available are the limited edition model, an out of stock FW conversion kit, and, assuming it is still available, old GW conversion kit that fit the previous Chaos Space Marines.
I received a 3d conversion kit from Pop Goes the Monkey for Sonic Blaster and Blastmasters. They fit exactly on the new Horus Heresy Marines. Rather than attach the bolter, the conversion kit attaches the Sonic weapons at the exact same spots. Zero additional work necessary (aside from ordering the conversion kit).
Not a great photo, but you can get the gist of the conversion kit.
If money isnt a problem you can also go for: Emperor's Children Legion Kakophoni from Forge World ^^
Sarigar wrote: For those interested in building Emperors Children Noise Marines. As far as I know, what is currently available are the limited edition model, an out of stock FW conversion kit, and, assuming it is still available, old GW conversion kit that fit the previous Chaos Space Marines.
I received a 3d conversion kit from Pop Goes the Monkey for Sonic Blaster and Blastmasters. They fit exactly on the new Horus Heresy Marines. Rather than attach the bolter, the conversion kit attaches the Sonic weapons at the exact same spots. Zero additional work necessary (aside from ordering the conversion kit).
Not a great photo, but you can get the gist of the conversion kit.
If money isnt a problem you can also go for: Emperor's Children Legion Kakophoni from Forge World ^^
I mentioned a FW kit, but forgot the name of it. Not sure how they fit with the new HH minis, but it's an option.
Vatsetis wrote: Question, how would a Spartan work with the current CSM codex?
Has the datasheet been updated to match the new chaos landraider profile?
No update yet, the Kratos tank (for Imperials only) is so far the only GW plastic 30k model to get a 40k update. Imperial Armour rules for the foreseeable unfortunately.
Historically, all of the GW plastic 30k kits have snuck rules into the loyalist codex so I'm hoping that trend continues with new 30k for both Imperials and Chaos.
I played a game against salamander successors over the weekend, nothing really to report in detail as it was over turn 3........however,
I think some other people mentioned it as well, but the Lord Discordant with the Undivided Daemon weapon and Flames of Spite is straight broken. In the two rounds he got to fight he did 15 moral wounds (and I did not roll my last set of tendrils attacks) and 9 mortal wounds (This time I only rolled his primary attacks, not tendrils or the mount). I rolled him up against my buddy's Knight and he one shot it two of three times (that includes the +1 damage for the injector) I think I am actually going to stop using this combo in friendly or less competitive games as it is straight fire, but any competitive list (outside of maybe running Abbadon) should have this combo in it.
Also got my first use of possessed. I ran a big blob of 9 (due to points) with the Rune. While they don't have the 2+ save like a big brick of terminators, the natural T5 is pretty useful in combination with the Rune. They did wiff really bad against a unit of Aggressors only scoring 1 total wound for 2 damage on 8 models attacking (so 40 attacks), but part of that was I rolled pretty poorly for the wounds (also no exploding 6's with the attacks for turn 2) and my opponent roll really good on his saves, I think he made ten 4+ saves. While that is not really an average roll I think it does show a weakness of the possessed against units with a good save and armor of contempt. Next game I am bringing the WL trait on my MoP that allows to him to put a daemonkin unit in Wanton Massacre/ improve ap by 1 (Word Bearer Trait) in the command phase to see if that really kicks up their power level.
I also am now a firm believer that shooting the top profile shot (d3 st 9) for oblitorators is always a waste of time. Espeically if you bring the MoP spell that gives +1 to wound against an enemy unit for Daemonkin/Daemon Engines. The second profile which is basically plasma is much better. Maybe against a unit with -1 damage, but even though I think I would rather take the 30+ single damage shots. Anyone else feel this way?
xeen wrote: I played a game against salamander successors over the weekend, nothing really to report in detail as it was over turn 3........however,
I think some other people mentioned it as well, but the Lord Discordant with the Undivided Daemon weapon and Flames of Spite is straight broken. In the two rounds he got to fight he did 15 moral wounds (and I did not roll my last set of tendrils attacks) and 9 mortal wounds (This time I only rolled his primary attacks, not tendrils or the mount). I rolled him up against my buddy's Knight and he one shot it two of three times (that includes the +1 damage for the injector) I think I am actually going to stop using this combo in friendly or less competitive games as it is straight fire, but any competitive list (outside of maybe running Abbadon) should have this combo in it.
Also got my first use of possessed. I ran a big blob of 9 (due to points) with the Rune. While they don't have the 2+ save like a big brick of terminators, the natural T5 is pretty useful in combination with the Rune. They did wiff really bad against a unit of Aggressors only scoring 1 total wound for 2 damage on 8 models attacking (so 40 attacks), but part of that was I rolled pretty poorly for the wounds (also no exploding 6's with the attacks for turn 2) and my opponent roll really good on his saves, I think he made ten 4+ saves. While that is not really an average roll I think it does show a weakness of the possessed against units with a good save and armor of contempt. Next game I am bringing the WL trait on my MoP that allows to him to put a daemonkin unit in Wanton Massacre/ improve ap by 1 (Word Bearer Trait) in the command phase to see if that really kicks up their power level.
I also am now a firm believer that shooting the top profile shot (d3 st 9) for oblitorators is always a waste of time. Espeically if you bring the MoP spell that gives +1 to wound against an enemy unit for Daemonkin/Daemon Engines. The second profile which is basically plasma is much better. Maybe against a unit with -1 damage, but even though I think I would rather take the 30+ single damage shots. Anyone else feel this way?
Everything else did what it was going to do.
Yes, Properly kitted out Lord Discordants feel so much stronger than a DP for similar cost. The key is to kit it out properly though. If you don't use some of the good combos and just run a normal Lord Discordant with non-synergistic relics or warlord traits, then it is going to be bad. I mean, a normal LD without any rerolls to wound only wounds a vehicle on 4s with his chainglaive and the rest of his weapons wounds the same T7 vehicle on 5s... and without mortal wounds, 8 out of 14 of his attacks are AP2 or AP0.
Considering a flying nid hive tyrant can do massive damage on its attack run in and then still "fly away" such that its literally untargetable... I think having one powered up ground based Lord Discordant that stays where he is after he has done mega damage isn't broken in any way or form.
And I also strongly agree with the Obliterator shooting. Don't use the D3 shots. It is an outright trap. It almost always disappoints. The problem with that shot is not only is it too few shots, its also AP3. In the AOC world we live in these days, even a Rhino gets a 5+ save against that. And while the Str 7 shot is AP2 and also runs up against AOC, at least that has far more shots than the Str 9 shot from the obliterator. So, you can rely on your opponent rolling some fails even if its AP2. If its a really tanky target, then I think the 9+D6 shots may actually do better than even the D3 Str 9 shots just like you said.
I was actually thinking of a list with one daemon prince of slannesh with the daemon weapons and then my lord discordant with his daemon weapon. Follow behind the possessed and venom crawlers and that is two crazy blender units up in the enemy's face probably turn 2.
xeen wrote: I think some other people mentioned it as well, but the Lord Discordant with the Undivided Daemon weapon and Flames of Spite is straight broken. In the two rounds he got to fight he did 15 moral wounds (and I did not roll my last set of tendrils attacks) and 9 mortal wounds (This time I only rolled his primary attacks, not tendrils or the mount).
How did you artive at 15 MW after choosing a melee weapon to be the Daemon one? Most attacks are the Chainglaive which starts at 6.
xeen wrote: I think some other people mentioned it as well, but the Lord Discordant with the Undivided Daemon weapon and Flames of Spite is straight broken. In the two rounds he got to fight he did 15 moral wounds (and I did not roll my last set of tendrils attacks) and 9 mortal wounds (This time I only rolled his primary attacks, not tendrils or the mount).
How did you artive at 15 MW after choosing a melee weapon to be the Daemon one? Most attacks are the Chainglaive which starts at 6.
You give him flames of spite WL trait as well. Then 6s do a mortal wound in addition. So with just the 6 to wounds with daemon weapon I got 6 MW from that plus I rolled two extra hits for two more plus three more for 6s to wound. Then I rolled the mount got two extra hits and then 3 more 6s. (So actually 14 i miss counted before). Neither time did I use the tendrils which should net one more on average. All together I think he will reliably put out 8 to 10 MW with heavy spikes up to like 15+ if you roll well.
Eldenfirefly wrote: And I also strongly agree with the Obliterator shooting. Don't use the D3 shots. It is an outright trap. It almost always disappoints. The problem with that shot is not only is it too few shots, its also AP3. In the AOC world we live in these days, even a Rhino gets a 5+ save against that. And while the Str 7 shot is AP2 and also runs up against AOC, at least that has far more shots than the Str 9 shot from the obliterator. So, you can rely on your opponent rolling some fails even if its AP2. If its a really tanky target, then I think the 9+D6 shots may actually do better than even the D3 Str 9 shots just like you said.
It's swingy, but the D3 shots are still the best on average against big targets. I just think Obliterators are not that efficient at shooting overall, and they need to also get into melee to be worth their points.
Say I make 5 attacks, hit with 3, and then 2 of those hits successfully wound, does the target instantly take 2 MW, even if the regular damage from whatever weapon was upgraded is negated via saves?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah, ok, I can kinda see why the Lord Discordant does 14-15 MW on the charge then... yikes!
Can you break that down?
I'm not seeing it.
The Demon weapon only replace ONE weapon on the model... not used for all attacks, right?
There is also the warlord trait flames of spite, which affects all 14 of the Lord Discordants melee attacks, as well as any possible additional attacks from exploding 6s if it happens to be wanton slaughter turns. And flames of spite allows you to reroll all wounds, even successful wounds, so you can reroll everything to fish for more 6s.
So, lets say we are in wanton slaughter turns. 6 attacks by the chainglaive = 7 attacks on average due to 1 explode. 7 attacks, hit on 2s, let's say 6 hits. Now, each 6 on the chainglaive = 2 mortal wounds, one from the Daemon weapon, and one from flames of spite. Even a non-six wound = 1MW because of the daemon weapon. Let's say we get 1 six and 5 non-six wounds (because of rerolls). That's 7 MW already. If we get 1 more 6 from the rerolls, that's 8MW.
Now, all the 4 mechatandrils attacks and the 4 bladed limbs attacks can trigger flames of spite, plus they can all explode for more hits on 6s. Since we just want MW, lets reroll all wounds as long as we don't get a 6s. 8 attacks = around 9 with explodes. 9 hits, with all rerolling wounds means we get at least 1 six here, and reroll 8 more wounds. I think on average, we could easily get two or three more 6s for 3 more MW. So, this now works out to 11 MW in total. And this is not counting the normal damage. If we spike sixes, we could reasonably hit 14 to 15 MW.
xeen wrote:I think some other people mentioned it as well, but the Lord Discordant with the Undivided Daemon weapon and Flames of Spite is straight broken. In the two rounds he got to fight he did 15 moral wounds
whembly wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah, ok, I can kinda see why the Lord Discordant does 14-15 MW on the charge then... yikes!
Can you break that down?
I'm not seeing it.
The Demon weapon only replace ONE weapon on the model... not used for all attacks, right?
15 MW over two rounds, so 7-8 per fight from Xeen's experience.
Doing some rough and ready math's against a generic space marine profile, a disco lord with flames of spite (reroll melee wounds, MW on a 6) and the undivided daemon weapon (MW on any successful wound roll) - Xeen rolled about perfectly average as you should be getting about 2.5 MW from flames over all weapons (this includes adjusting higher strength weapons for not being able to fish for 6's as well as low strength), and roughly 4.9 MW from the chainglaive being a daemon weapon (so about 7.5ish MW per fight phase). I did this ignoring exploding 6's as those are not always on - so it can go a bit higher if you live long enough.
While impressive, the MW output might just be overkill against anything but the biggest targets, as the generic weapons in this example did a further 10-ish unsaved wounds on their own so it might actually be worth thinking about slightly toned down builds for disco lords, you could go for the similar soul eater black legion trait and the slaanesh daemon weapons and get a tankier unit that does about the same damage after factoring in that overkill doesn't get you anywhere.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah, ok, I can kinda see why the Lord Discordant does 14-15 MW on the charge then... yikes!
Can you break that down?
I'm not seeing it.
The Demon weapon only replace ONE weapon on the model... not used for all attacks, right?
There is also the warlord trait flames of spite, which affects all 14 of the Lord Discordants melee attacks, as well as any possible additional attacks from exploding 6s if it happens to be wanton slaughter turns. And flames of spite allows you to reroll all wounds, even successful wounds, so you can reroll everything to fish for more 6s.
So, lets say we are in wanton slaughter turns. 6 attacks by the chainglaive = 7 attacks on average due to 1 explode. 7 attacks, hit on 2s, let's say 6 hits. Now, each 6 on the chainglaive = 2 mortal wounds, one from the Daemon weapon, and one from flames of spite. Even a non-six wound = 1MW because of the daemon weapon. Let's say we get 1 six and 5 non-six wounds (because of rerolls). That's 7 MW already. If we get 1 more 6 from the rerolls, that's 8MW.
Now, all the 4 mechatandrils attacks and the 4 bladed limbs attacks can trigger flames of spite, plus they can all explode for more hits on 6s. Since we just want MW, lets reroll all wounds as long as we don't get a 6s. 8 attacks = around 9 with explodes. 9 hits, with all rerolling wounds means we get at least 1 six here, and reroll 8 more wounds. I think on average, we could easily get two or three more 6s for 3 more MW. So, this now works out to 11 MW in total. And this is not counting the normal damage. If we spike sixes, we could reasonably hit 14 to 15 MW.
Yea the Lord Discordant is awesome. I actually agree that the MW could potentially be overkill on many units, but it is nice to wipe a small unit of infantry with just mortal wounds so you don't have a hot spike on saves and end up with enemies lift. I was also thinking of trying him with the WL trait so that he is always in all three Wantons instead of flames. Ultimately I think flames is better, but having exploding 6s on always seems like it could be good as well.
Also remember I use Word Bearer trait so re-roll hit then re-roll wound on first round. It makes getting 6 MW almost a guarantee even without Wanton Slaughter.
On the topic of CSM Secondaries and the fact they aren´t that good. I think there might actually be one that is ok.
---
It´s the generic one For the Gods, scoring is 2-5-9-14. It wants you to have a unit within 3" of the center of a table quarter doing an action. If the unit is ObSec it's done eot, else next Command.
The rider obviously is ObSec mixed with completing the action in opposing quarters. Translating this means for the opponents quarters you most often need to move an ObSec unit 20"+ Hence Legionnaires and Cultists is not a realistic option.
But Alpha Legion has WLT called Covert Control allowing you to give a Core unit within 6" ObSec in the Command Phase.
Adding this to a Sorcerer with Warptime you can first give a unit of Raptors ObSec and then slingshot them 12" + 12" Move = 24" up the board followed by the action which will be done eot.
---
The investment is 1 Cp (WLT) + 290 points (Sorc + 2x Raptors) which is fine for 14 VPimho.
---
There are variations on this, but it´s the simplest solution I´ve found out yet.
I like the look of for the dark gods too, but it's an end of movement phase action so no warptiming into range. I reckon the general plan is to grab a safe quarter turn 1 while trying to move into position ready to grab the 2 quarters on the other half of the table turns 2-4, then have turn 5 for cleaning up your half of the board.
I like For the Gods as well. But you do need to build for it in your list. In my list, I had a Rhino with one squad of 5 man legionaire and another tough elite squad in it.
In this game I played, the first 2 turns were easy doing the 2 quarters in my half of the board. Turn 3 I didn't manage to do any. But by turn 3, I had overwhelmingly pushed into one side of his deployment zone.
Turn 4, I got one tough elite unit into position on the side I had overwhelmingly pushed into and performed the action on my opponent's side of the board. It survived until turn 5 command phase. And turn 5 was also the turn my legionaire squad disembarked from the Rhino, moved to the last center of his quarter where his entire remaining army was in, and performed the action which he couldn't stop because it was a legionaire squad with obsec.
So I did manage to score all 4 for the gods, but it was a really close thing.
I don't know if this is a win more kind of secondary. I imagine if you are stuck only in your own two quarters, then you would net only 5 points. On average, if you manage to push through on one flank, you would net 9VP, which is decent. It feels like CSM should be able to aggressively at least push through on one flank. Load up a ton of forces on one flank, play a refused flank strategy on the other but with a big block of terminators holding the center. We should be able to push through deep into one flank at least. Its that last flank that's the problem. but with a legionaire unit in a Rhino. We at least can try for it on turn 5. Because at least the good thing about this secondary is that you can try and score it even with enemy units in the vicinity. Also, the center of the board usually doesn't align with where the objectives are (though they might be close). So, these aren't going to be as heavily protected as primary objectives.
The main issue with our secondary objectives is battlefield supremacy and that third secondary too. We can only take engage on all fronts and behind enemy lines for battlefield supremacy. Engage we are unlikely to score full points. In a tough fight, we would be lucky to score engage 8 or 9 points even if we have 2 cultist squads coming in from strategic reserve. Behind Enemy Lines I actually feel is often better because as CSM we always try and break through deep in at least one flank, and sometimes, our opponents and us do "the swirl". He pushes hard on one flank and I push hard on the other flank. So, there is a good chance we can get deep enough into one flank that we are able to score well in behind enemy lines.
That leaves the third secondary which is often a kill secondary. And this then depends on our opponent's army composition. If our opposition doesn't give up any easy kill secondary, we are in trouble. We could look at Psychic secondary too. But its just really tough to bring one more psyker just for the option of doing this secondary... especially because our HQ slots are so crowded. And again, some opponent's armies are psyker heavy or have 4+ deny, so it is matchup dependent.
The ability to do psychic secondaries makes me consider bringing a Tzeentch MOP with the eye of tzeentch instead of a slanaash MOP with the liber hereticus. The tzeentch MOP has the option for us to pay 1 CP for great sorceror so that he can cast one psychic plus do an action that turn. And for warp ritual we only need 3 casts through to get 12 points. This MOP would be moving towards the center of the board to cast warp ritual. MOP is a better candidate I feel that any other sorceror because he can sacrificial dagger for +2 to cast. And the eye of tzeentch gives a further +1 to cast, and unmodified 9s are undeniable. Have a venomcrawler within 9 inches and he has a stupid +4 to cast! This makes his warp rituals very very hard to stop, even against armies with psykers who do have denies.
I love the slanaash MOP with liber hereticus though. It just stays in my backlines the entire game and the range 24 inch provided by that relic allows me to cast 3 buff psychic a turn usually without having to worry about denies because he is so far back. And all 3 buffs are so good. (I usually take mutated invigoration, pact of flesh and delightful agonies). But delightful agonies can be settled with a slanaash legionaire squad with balefire tome was well, so its ok. (Unlike trying to squeeze in one more psyker into the super crowded HQ slots).
I have tried daemon prince for that one extra psyker and to be honest, its just not that optimal. You kind of want your DP to have the freedom to roam wherever he wants, attack whoever he wants on the board and his movement is 12 inch fly. Trying to shackle him near the center of the board to do warp ritual is very limiting. Also, you want your DP to do lots of damage, and not mind if he does die as long as he did his job. But for doing psychic actions, you want him to stay alive long enough to perform all the psychic actions (be it interrogate or warp ritual). So far, all the games I brought my DP, he has died. lol (Maybe I just didn't make him tanky enough).
Also, I have tried out lord discordant instead of a DP, and well, as we saw in the posts above, a well kit out lord discordant is so much better than a DP. BTW, flames of spite MW is on attack, not just melee attack, so on your Lord Discordant, his baleflamer shots on 6s to wound trigger MW as well... lol
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah, ok, I can kinda see why the Lord Discordant does 14-15 MW on the charge then... yikes!
Can you break that down?
I'm not seeing it.
The Demon weapon only replace ONE weapon on the model... not used for all attacks, right?
There is also the warlord trait flames of spite, which affects all 14 of the Lord Discordants melee attacks, as well as any possible additional attacks from exploding 6s if it happens to be wanton slaughter turns. And flames of spite allows you to reroll all wounds, even successful wounds, so you can reroll everything to fish for more 6s.
So, lets say we are in wanton slaughter turns. 6 attacks by the chainglaive = 7 attacks on average due to 1 explode. 7 attacks, hit on 2s, let's say 6 hits. Now, each 6 on the chainglaive = 2 mortal wounds, one from the Daemon weapon, and one from flames of spite. Even a non-six wound = 1MW because of the daemon weapon. Let's say we get 1 six and 5 non-six wounds (because of rerolls). That's 7 MW already. If we get 1 more 6 from the rerolls, that's 8MW.
Now, all the 4 mechatandrils attacks and the 4 bladed limbs attacks can trigger flames of spite, plus they can all explode for more hits on 6s. Since we just want MW, lets reroll all wounds as long as we don't get a 6s. 8 attacks = around 9 with explodes. 9 hits, with all rerolling wounds means we get at least 1 six here, and reroll 8 more wounds. I think on average, we could easily get two or three more 6s for 3 more MW. So, this now works out to 11 MW in total. And this is not counting the normal damage. If we spike sixes, we could reasonably hit 14 to 15 MW.
I mentioned this on a prior post but if you also put the infernal power from the malefic discipline. Any 6s to hit will not only explode but also count as 6s to wound, thus proccing flames of spite. If you are in EC then you also get -1 AP to those attacks when you go to saves.
Discos can get very nutty
Been considering possibliy running 2 in some lists but you definitely get more value out of flames than The daemon weapon. Pumping both lords is likely inefficient CP wise
Flames of spite and Gorget
Daemon weapon and 5+++
Vatsetis wrote: Question, how would a Spartan work with the current CSM codex?
Has the datasheet been updated to match the new chaos landraider profile?
No update yet, the Kratos tank (for Imperials only) is so far the only GW plastic 30k model to get a 40k update. Imperial Armour rules for the foreseeable unfortunately.
Historically, all of the GW plastic 30k kits have snuck rules into the loyalist codex so I'm hoping that trend continues with new 30k for both Imperials and Chaos.
Gonna potentially be another one of those options that cost 1 CP?
Honestly you might not need to put the Daemon Weapon on the Lord Discordant, just put Flames of Spite on. Sure if we want the absolute most MWs out of a single model putting everything on the LD offensively is good, but we have to both keep the LD alive long enough as well as take into account that pre-game command points are at a premium. If we can get away with 'just' the offensive power of Flames of Spite, we can maybe burn one more point on a defensive relic like the Gorget of Eternal Hate for a 1+ save with AoC. I think Flames is probably a better choice for your single offensive point spend than the Daemon Weapon simply because you also get full wound rerolls to fish for 6s, and having that on a model with 14 base attacks is basically the best use of Flames of Spite there is. Though if there's a particularly good defensive WLT I can see going for the Daemon Weapon instead.
In addition, not having to take the Undivided Daemon Weapon lets us put a Mark on them. I think Slaanesh is one of the better ones these days because the 5+++ power is amazing on tougher models (though saving it for Black Rune Terminators/Chosen is probably better), but I can see the LD making good use of any of the Marks (Nurgle probably the most niche).
Thariinye wrote: Honestly you might not need to put the Daemon Weapon on the Lord Discordant, just put Flames of Spite on. Sure if we want the absolute most MWs out of a single model putting everything on the LD offensively is good, but we have to both keep the LD alive long enough as well as take into account that pre-game command points are at a premium. If we can get away with 'just' the offensive power of Flames of Spite, we can maybe burn one more point on a defensive relic like the Gorget of Eternal Hate for a 1+ save with AoC. I think Flames is probably a better choice for your single offensive point spend than the Daemon Weapon simply because you also get full wound rerolls to fish for 6s, and having that on a model with 14 base attacks is basically the best use of Flames of Spite there is. Though if there's a particularly good defensive WLT I can see going for the Daemon Weapon instead.
In addition, not having to take the Undivided Daemon Weapon lets us put a Mark on them. I think Slaanesh is one of the better ones these days because the 5+++ power is amazing on tougher models (though saving it for Black Rune Terminators/Chosen is probably better), but I can see the LD making good use of any of the Marks (Nurgle probably the most niche).
Ive been thinking this too. If you put all your buffs on the terms. All you doing is further discouraging your opponent to shoot at your terms, They dont avhe the greatest damage output so you really WANT your opponent to shoot at them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: No Jump Pack in the Codex for Chaos Lords/Sorcerers. No Lightning Claws anymore either for them (unless you're a Terminator Lord). Even Raptor Champs can't take Lightning Claws.
Exalted Champs lost all their options too.
Chosen can't take Power Fists for no easily discernible reason.
Insularum wrote: I like the look of for the dark gods too, but it's an end of movement phase action so no warptiming into range. I reckon the general plan is to grab a safe quarter turn 1 while trying to move into position ready to grab the 2 quarters on the other half of the table turns 2-4, then have turn 5 for cleaning up your half of the board.
Funny. I zoned out and reversed the Phase order That´s a T2 possibility then. Mea Culpa!
There´s other ways to solve this T1 than Warptime though. Forward Operatives moves the Raptors 12" up and then a Normal Move.
***
On the rest of the Secondaries I believe Ritual is given as we have cheap durable Psykers and we want a scrum in the middle anyway. As Eldenfirefly wrote it´s the third that´s the issue and my go to atm is Grind them Down and let the MOP + Rune to add durability. Engage I just don´t like due to basically feeding the opponent units to waste.
Thoughts on Maulerfiend? I've run him twice and against a melee army he absolutely blends anything he touches, however against shooty stuff he is the first to die. I've included one and 2 VC in my BL list for an event at the weekend and keep thinking I've fallen into a bit of a bad choice, however I don't have any spare chosen or any possesed instead.
My only alternative is more legionnaires or some raptors which I don't think are worth it
Thariinye wrote: Honestly you might not need to put the Daemon Weapon on the Lord Discordant, just put Flames of Spite on. Sure if we want the absolute most MWs out of a single model putting everything on the LD offensively is good, but we have to both keep the LD alive long enough as well as take into account that pre-game command points are at a premium. If we can get away with 'just' the offensive power of Flames of Spite, we can maybe burn one more point on a defensive relic like the Gorget of Eternal Hate for a 1+ save with AoC. I think Flames is probably a better choice for your single offensive point spend than the Daemon Weapon simply because you also get full wound rerolls to fish for 6s, and having that on a model with 14 base attacks is basically the best use of Flames of Spite there is. Though if there's a particularly good defensive WLT I can see going for the Daemon Weapon instead.
In addition, not having to take the Undivided Daemon Weapon lets us put a Mark on them. I think Slaanesh is one of the better ones these days because the 5+++ power is amazing on tougher models (though saving it for Black Rune Terminators/Chosen is probably better), but I can see the LD making good use of any of the Marks (Nurgle probably the most niche).
Ive been thinking this too. If you put all your buffs on the terms. All you doing is further discouraging your opponent to shoot at your terms, They dont avhe the greatest damage output so you really WANT your opponent to shoot at them.
Agreed, Black Rune is probably enough to make a lot of shooting inefficient against Terminators or Chosen. I'd still probably Mark them Slaanesh so that a nearby psyker can put up the 5+++ on them, but honestly more than that on them and it's likely that your opponent will start trying to ignore them instead of shooting at them. Having MoS on them at least gives them fights first in case they get charged so they can threaten the interrupt in a many-charge turn, and on Chosen you can also take the Icon to let them hit on 2+, so that's a meaningful offensive buff, and the 5+++ gives them some defense against mortal wounds. Have a big unit of either of those with just enough defensive buffs that it's inefficient to shoot at them, but which your opponent will really want to shoot at because it's protecting some combination of Abaddon/DP/LD/MoP, and that's probably the most efficient use of resources on them.
I wouldn’t. I would/have put them in a transport and use the rune for a large unit that can’t like 10 terminators or possessed. I love it on big brick of possessed
Art of War did a tier list for Chaos Space Marines and they controversially rated Chosen higher than Terminators. Their rational was that when you put the Black Rune on a unit of Chosen plus all the defensive buffs like Mutated invigoration and delightful agonies and illusionary supplication. At that point, since both Chosen and Terminators have 3W each, the same unit of chosen would be almost as hard to kill as the terminator unit while being 8 points cheaper per model.
Their reasoning was that the 1 additional saving throw that the terminators get and 2 more shots per model from their combi bolter doesn't warrant being 8 points higher per model, while Chosen also get 1 more inch of movement. They would rather save that at least 80 points (or more) by running a 10 man unit of Chosen instead of a 10 man unit of terminators, and then use the points saved elsewhere.
Its controversial, and there are plenty of people that disagree with this. Personally, I prefer 10 terminators myself over 10 chosen. But its does have some reasoning behind it.
People with experience will know targeting your terminator unit is a trap. When you have put so many defensive buffs onto one unit, they are not going to try and kill it. They know it would either be impossible, or it would take far far too much resources. (Plus don't forget we can heal and rez models too with our MOP from this unit). So, unless they literally can go into the unit with their entire army or most of it, they aren't even going to try.
Hence also the line of thinking about spreading out the defensive relics and buffs somewhat. So instead of making one unit of terminators impossible to kill. We spread out our defensive buffs and relics to make a few units hard to kill instead of one unkillable terminator unit.
The main benefits though are:
1. 2 extra shots at ALL ranges, which equates 4 shots at all ranges.
2. Deep Strike
3. 2+ with 5++
4. Not relegated to just Accursed Weapons (AKA Power Fists).
Chosen have so little going for them that Art Of War is completely wrong on that. There's just no real reasoning.
EviscerationPlague wrote: The main benefits though are:
1. 2 extra shots at ALL ranges, which equates 4 shots at all ranges.
2. Deep Strike
3. 2+ with 5++
4. Not relegated to just Accursed Weapons (AKA Power Fists).
Chosen have so little going for them that Art Of War is completely wrong on that. There's just no real reasoning.
Yea that doesn’t add up what Art of War is saying I mean that ignores possessed existing which are already T5 also three wounds Same save as chosen one more attack with d2 and 9 inch move. You lose the bolters but who cares. And it would be 30 points more than chosen and 50 points cheaper than terminators
EviscerationPlague wrote: The main benefits though are:
1. 2 extra shots at ALL ranges, which equates 4 shots at all ranges.
2. Deep Strike
3. 2+ with 5++
4. Not relegated to just Accursed Weapons (AKA Power Fists).
Chosen have so little going for them that Art Of War is completely wrong on that. There's just no real reasoning.
Bolters are bolters, the 5++ doesn't really come into play much, and power fists cost points.
EviscerationPlague wrote: The main benefits though are:
1. 2 extra shots at ALL ranges, which equates 4 shots at all ranges.
2. Deep Strike
3. 2+ with 5++
4. Not relegated to just Accursed Weapons (AKA Power Fists).
Chosen have so little going for them that Art Of War is completely wrong on that. There's just no real reasoning.
Bolters are bolters, the 5++ doesn't really come into play much, and power fists cost points.
No gak Sherlock that Power Fists cost points. Still better than being perpetually stuck with Accursed Weapons.
I feel the Chosen/Termies debate is an interesting one. Though from what I've been hearing Termies don't really pull their weight all that well. They sure can survive but once they get in they kinda flail but aren't punching as hard as they should (Likely due to AOC being prevalent and even Power Fists losing out on their scare factor a bit).
But I suppose the idea of Chosen being Terminator-Lite isn't terrible either. I'd be interested in trying out both over a series of games just to see how well one fares over the other. Termies always feel like the safe bet due to their survivability even if you don't Power Fist them. But then at that point you might as well save the points and go for Chosen if you're going to stick yourself with Accursed Weapons...
Hmm. I do feel they both have their merits. Chosen could net you more bodies to sort of 'mitigate' the lack of saves, which is also appealing. Getting additional 3 wounds on the table per model (due to their point difference) isn't anything to stick my nose up at. Saturate instead of 'eggs in one basket' with the Termies.
Vatsetis wrote: Chosen can ride a Rhino and carry an Icon... Perhaps thats a bonus.
Honestly, a good point as well. Can help mitigate some weaknesses depending on what Icon they end up getting. Khorne can make them choppier, their Accursed Weapons being less flimsy against AOC but still not hitting all that hard with 1D weapons. Tzeentch doing the same but for shooting but their shooting isn't quite as strong as Termies. Nurgle getting auto wounds on their shooting is pretty solid. Slaanesh feeling the weaker of the lot but still netting +1 to hits can help ensure your swings are going to succeed in the first place. For 5 extra points it isn't the worst.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Ok so played day one of a GT today with black legion and I can safely say obliterators are absolutely terrible.
A shame...I still plan to run a squad of 3 because I just love the model too much. Even with high shots/exploding 6's they just aren't doing as much as we all thought, eh?
Rogerio134134 wrote: Ok so played day one of a GT today with black legion and I can safely say obliterators are absolutely terrible.
My obliterators are doing better in melee than they are in shooting... lol But given we don't have that many good options for shooting ... I am still sort of sticking to them for now. Their infamous reputation alone makes my opponents target them (be it to charge them or to shoot them), and that's a good thing because they are hard to kill.
I had one game where three obliterators shot 9+3d3 shots of Str 7 damage 2 into a squad of 10 black templar sword brethren. I only killed one ? (Because they took the saves on models in cover). But when that same sword brethren squad charged into my obliterators, I interupted combat and fought first and 12 crushing fists attacks smashed half the squad! lol In the end, my obliterators won that fight! lol They are better at fighting than they are at shooting now. Its so weird.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Ok so played day one of a GT today with black legion and I can safely say obliterators are absolutely terrible.
My obliterators are doing better in melee than they are in shooting... lol But given we don't have that many good options for shooting ... I am still sort of sticking to them for now. Their infamous reputation alone makes my opponents target them (be it to charge them or to shoot them), and that's a good thing because they are hard to kill.
I had one game where three obliterators shot 9+3d3 shots of Str 7 damage 2 into a squad of 10 black templar sword brethren. I only killed one ? (Because they took the saves on models in cover). But when that same sword brethren squad charged into my obliterators, I interupted combat and fought first and 12 crushing fists attacks smashed half the squad! lol In the end, my obliterators won that fight! lol They are better at fighting than they are at shooting now. Its so weird.
They have become our distraction carnifex XD Welp, time to march them up the board and shoot the entire way. Or deep strike and slap some people around!
I'm honestly just picking behind enemy lines secondary and putting them and warp talons behind cover to get the points. If anyone attacks either squad they can fight well.
Finished the event 2 win 3 losses. My list was BL with Abaddon and all the usual suspects. As previously stated the oblits are definitely getting dropped they are rubbish. 5 Havoc's sat at the back is more effective for sure.
Maulerfiend is a good unit but I think I'll drop him as well because he just can't be hidden and gets riddled with fire.
I think my list will change to make my squad of 5 chosen into a big blob of 8 or 9 , adding a MOE with Daemon Wesson and some Havoc's. Out goes the oblits and the Mauler. Once I get some possesed I'd consider dropping my warp talons as well even though they are good
What's your take on plague marines opposed to terminator/chosen discussion?
6 plague marines with maxed melee, flail, power fist & blade, bubotic axe, mace & axe, cleaver, blight launcher is quite point effective for what it does.
My current list has 5 termies, fists and chainfist, 5 chosen (slaanesh, icon), 6 (above) plague marines and they all do the same role, camp on forward objective and TBH they feel like same durability with around-about same points, but they hit harder.
On the oblits; they hit harder in melee, but are hard to shift with MoP nearby. Also trying lascannon havocs for some long range shooting and make a damage roll to a six strat. Yet to have use it in a game, but it's in my tool box to see whether it's usable.
Went 80-70 today with my Blood Angels against Death guard and plague marines felt point efficient even that I out played em. My opponent kept them in a rhino for 3 turns before taking em' out, but they are also hard to shift from cover with -1 dmg etc.
Xirax wrote: What's your take on plague marines opposed to terminator/chosen discussion?
I don't have numbers for Chosen because I was running them on Termies/PM for my own list building theorycraft. Just using some raw mathhammer they are fairly close with plague marines being more efficient points per wound but lower raw output. So termies will cost you slightly more but will pack more damage into the same number of bodies (I was comparing 10 man squads).
Strictly based on melee
PM into MEQ: 14.42 Points per wound output.
Term into MEQ: 18.01 PPW
PM into TEQ: 19.07
Term into TEQ: 23.46
PM into T7 Veh: 21.84
Term into T7 Veh: 23.75
PM into T8 5++ Veh: 26.16
Term into T8 5++ Veh: 40
I am thinking about running a 10 man of each for different targets, though you might need a Rhino to get good use out of the PM and that isn't factored into the above numbers
Xirax wrote: What's your take on plague marines opposed to terminator/chosen discussion?
I don't have numbers for Chosen because I was running them on Termies/PM for my own list building theorycraft. Just using some raw mathhammer they are fairly close with plague marines being more efficient points per wound but lower raw output. So termies will cost you slightly more but will pack more damage into the same number of bodies (I was comparing 10 man squads).
Strictly based on melee
PM into MEQ: 14.42 Points per wound output.
Term into MEQ: 18.01 PPW
PM into TEQ: 19.07
Term into TEQ: 23.46
PM into T7 Veh: 21.84
Term into T7 Veh: 23.75
PM into T8 5++ Veh: 26.16
Term into T8 5++ Veh: 40
I am thinking about running a 10 man of each for different targets, though you might need a Rhino to get good use out of the PM and that isn't factored into the above numbers
The numbers on comparing the Terminators to plague marines makes sense. Its 6 power fists and 2 chain fists. It stands to reason the close combat output would be a bit higher than 1 power fist, 2 plague cleavers, 2 flails and 2 maces on the plague marine side. However, its not significantly higher. Meanwhile, the 10 man plague marine squad cost 225 points, while that ten man termie squad with 2 chain fists and 6 power fists costs around 400 points.
Efficiency wise, its difficult to beat the plague marine squad. If you want something resilient for less points, getting a ten man plague marine squad instead of a ten man termie squad is sacrificing some resilience for costing much less points.
And the plague marine squad can bring the black rune of damnation as well. And since its core, it can receive all the defensive buffs you usually put on it, except for delightful agonies. Lack of delightful agonies can be offset by being able to -1 to hit with putrid miasma and transhuman using the strategem grandfatherly blessing.
The terminators are a great squad though, I've used them 7 or 8 times now and with Mark of slanesh for delightful agonies and the black rune they are incredibly durable. Even against Abaddon they managed to only lose a couple of models due to invuln saves and shrugs.
Fast Attack
Venomcrawler [6 PL, 105pts]
Warp Talons [7 PL, 140pts]
Selections: Warp Talon Champion
4x Warp Talon
Selections: 4x Warp claws
Warp Talons [7 PL, 140pts]
Selections: Warp Talon Champion
4x Warp Talon
Selections: 4x Warp claws
Heavy Support
Forgefiend [8 PL, 160pts]
Selections: 2x Heavy hades autocannons, Daemon jaws
Havocs [8 PL, 160pts, -1CP]
Selections: Mark of Tzeentch
Havoc Champion
Selections: Astartes chainsword, Black Rune of Damnation, Boltgun, Trophies of the Long War
4x Havoc w/ lascannon
Selections: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Lascannon
Dedicated Transport
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]
Ofc it is Not maxed out or something like that, but it is my second Game with CSM since the new codex arrived. Thats why I am just testing stuff.
A little feedback would be awesome.
I like the
Inferno Tome for the priest. -
The bearer knows one additional prayer from the Prayers to the Dark Gods.
- Each time the bearer chants a prayer, if it is heard, the closest enemy unit within 18" of and visible to the bearer suffers D3 mortal wounds
With
Illusory Supplication
If this prayer is heard, select one friendly <LEGION> CORE, <LEGION> CULTISTS or <LEGION> CHARACTER unit within 6" of this PRIEST. Each time an attack is made against that unit:
- An unmodifed hit roll of 1-3 for that attack fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making the attack may have.
- That attack's hit roll cannot be re-rolled.
I would even let him babysit the havocs. Illusory Supplicant in your enemies turn warp sight plea in your own turn.
Warp-sight Plea If this prayer is heard, select one friendly <LEGION> CORE, <LEGION> CULTISTS or <LEGION> CHARACTER unit within 6" of this PRIEST. Each time a model in that unit makes a ranged attack, re-roll a hit roll of 1 and the target does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack.
I would let my MoP take Liber hereticus
That way he can cast 3 powers, so when you make him Slaneesh:
Delightful Agonies 6 18" Blessing: If manifested, select one friendly <LEGION> SLAANESH unit within 18" of this PSYKER. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, each time a model in that unit would lose a wound, roll one D6: on a 5+, that wound is not lost.
Otherwise smite.
And he gets
Liber Hereticus - In your Psychic phase, the bearer can attempt to manifest one additional power.
- Each time the bearer successfully manifests a psychic power, add 6" to the range of that power's effect. If that psychic power specifies multiple ranges (e.g. Gift of Chaos), this rule only affects the first range specified in that psychic power.
So all your demon buff auras increase to 12 inch!!!
Maybe I m wrong and you can't buff them, please correct me if I am wrong.
I also feel flames of spite much stronger than hatrec incarnated cuz reroll wounds in melee and mortals in melee and range. Discolord hits on 2s, so he hits very good already.
Flames of Spite - Each time this WARLORD makes a melee attack, you can re-roll the wound roll.
- Each time this WARLORD makes an attack, on an unmodified wound roll of 6, the target suffers one mortal wound in addition to any normal damage.
Edit:
I prefer that, as I sometimes get stuck in Combat with a bigger threat mostly hive tyrants or Björn the fellhanded and after 1 round of combat discolord needs the wound rerolls.
p5freak wrote: A priest is not worth its points. He is way too expensive for one prayer. A tzeentch MoP or sorcerer can cast three psychic powers (with a strat).
I don't disagree entirely, it's an unwieldy unit, especially with the attendants, its combat value is marginal at best. Word Bearers can invest and get 2 prayers per turn and potentially improve its combat potential, so there's that. Furthermore, CSMHQ is heavily impacted already, especially if you're trying to limit yourself to a single detachment.
However, it does provide some buffs that are unavailable anywhere else. As with most things, I suspect it comes down to army composition, legion choice, and tactical preference. Under the right circumstances I suspect it's indispensable.
p5freak wrote: A priest is not worth its points. He is way too expensive for one prayer. A tzeentch MoP or sorcerer can cast three psychic powers (with a strat).
I don't disagree entirely, it's an unwieldy unit, especially with the attendants, its combat value is marginal at best. Word Bearers can invest and get 2 prayers per turn and potentially improve its combat potential, so there's that. Furthermore, CSMHQ is heavily impacted already, especially if you're trying to limit yourself to a single detachment.
However, it does provide some buffs that are unavailable anywhere else. As with most things, I suspect it comes down to army composition, legion choice, and tactical preference. Under the right circumstances I suspect it's indispensable.
I agree. It really depends on army build. I haven't really used him much as he can't buff possessed with Illusory. However, if I had to pick between him and a MoP, it is MoP all day everyday.
xeen wrote: I agree. It really depends on army build. I haven't really used him much as he can't buff possessed with Illusory. However, if I had to pick between him and a MoP, it is MoP all day everyday.
I think MoP is auto-include. The other two HQ slots are the variables in my opinion. At this point I've only been theory-crafting lists, which is EC focusing heavily on Core units, so Blissful Devotion/Honor the Prince is something I want to play around with.
I'll play my first actual games with EC this weekend and see how theory plays on the table. I don't really play competitively at this point though, so it's just casual games with friends, so the results will not be very indicative of what to expect outside that environment.
p5freak wrote: A priest is not worth its points. He is way too expensive for one prayer. A tzeentch MoP or sorcerer can cast three psychic powers (with a strat).
I don't disagree entirely, it's an unwieldy unit, especially with the attendants, its combat value is marginal at best. Word Bearers can invest and get 2 prayers per turn and potentially improve its combat potential, so there's that. Furthermore, CSMHQ is heavily impacted already, especially if you're trying to limit yourself to a single detachment.
However, it does provide some buffs that are unavailable anywhere else. As with most things, I suspect it comes down to army composition, legion choice, and tactical preference. Under the right circumstances I suspect it's indispensable.
Yeah, I agree too. It kind of depends on the list. I have tried it out. But my current lists have dropped it. What I hate is that you can still roll a 1 and fail at a prayer (and sometimes at a key turn too). And if you spent so many points to bring a character that then failed at its one job at a moment.... its so disheartening. Because at least a psyker like MOP has 2 casts. And you can even reroll a psychic test while I found out you can't reroll a prayer... lol
BTW, I discovered this trick on reddit. It may solve our problems with overcrowded HQ slots. We can leave aside 55 points and just summon in a herald of Slanaash. She is a psyker that is power level 3. We literally can't fail to summon her. She has just one cast, but that is just right for us to use her to do psychic actions instead of using our Master of possession. And she is cheap at 55 points.
So, hide our MOP comfartably behind obscuring terrain, far back within our deployment zone. Turn 1, don't move him, do the demonic ritual. Summon the herald of slanaash. You can place her within 12 inches of the MOP, so she can be further up (perhaps right behind our terminator bloc?). And then she can just follow our terminator bloc and do warp ritual or mental interrogation. And meanwhile, our MOP can continue to stay far back out of deny range and cast his buff spells at will.
I've been waiting for Chaos to get updated for a while and I'm pretty happy with the new rules, but I'm wondering about a couple things.
For CoB Obliterators attacking with their fists, would they receive the +1S before their fists double the Strength? (S11 or S12?). And, if they were buffed with Mutated Invigoration, would that buff occur before or after the doubling strength?
For MoT, if an enemy wounds the unit with, say, some bolters and a plasmagun or a lascannon, do I get to pick the order that I take those saves? Like, I would get to choose to take the lascannon/plasma gun save first so if it fails the damage becomes 0 instead of a bolter shot becoming damage 0?
Is there anything in the book that allows you to have cultists to fill your compulsory troop choices? Specifically the mutant cultists. I'd really like to have a mutant themed army but it seems, unless I forgo troops altogether, I'll need at least 2x5 Legionaries (+cultists) to fill out the battalion requirements.
I can't find anything on daemon summoning rituals. Is this gone?
I'd like to take what I own and try to turn it into a primarily daemonkin footslogging list as CoB for the movement and strength. I'm wondering what stuff would be worth looking into/considering alongside the basics. I'm also wondering if any of these units are not worth taking because they're overpriced or outshined by something else.
Demon Prince warlord
Master of Possession - Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
Accursed Cultists & Legionaries - I'd like to deck out the legionaries with the cool chaos stuff like the tome and demon weapon, but reading through this it sounds like a waste of points?
Possessed
Chaos Spawns
Obliterators
I have other stuff, like way too many berserkers, sorcerer, apostle, exalted champ, warp talons, raptors, a chaos dreadnought, way too many terminators--how viable is a 10-man unit of terminators w/o Abaddon? I love terminators but have always felt like they weren't too great, especially in a chaos army. Even though they're not daemonkin, I would certainly consider running a large mob down the center of the board.
I've heard a lot about the Lord Discordant but I'm just not really into any of the daemon engines. The defiler and the heldrake are alright, the other stuff I don't care for. I much prefer predators/land raiders to the daemon engines, or dreadnought-like stuff (decimator), but I don't feel particularly compelled to fill out the army list with vehicles. Should I reconsider and look at combining daemon engines with the daemonkin, or can I get everything I need from the daemonkin + traitor marines?
I saw someone mentioned that Prescience isn't as good because CSM are better at melee, but I'm confused because doesn't Prescience work for both shooting and melee? Couldn't I take a 5-man legionaries unit with the tome and Prescience, cast +1 to hit on the Obliterators on turn 1, and then if the unit survives, cast it again on Possessed when they reach combat? It also adds more Deny attempts since the MoP only gets 1 deny, plus you could have a couple cheap units casting smite. For 20pts you can make the marines sort of like faux grey knights/TSs and you could take the same 1 or 2 spells a couple times so they could be cast from different locations depending on who needs it, and you'd have another unit to cast it if that one dies. For example, 2 5-man units with MoT (or any Mark, really) and Prescience for 250pts total; they can buff a friendly unit with Prescience, or themselves for a 4++, or cast Smite. If one of them dies, you still have Prescience.
Finally, I'm thinking about taking 2 Legionaries units and 1 Accursed Cultist unit for my battalion. Would these be best taken as minimal units or, unlike what I'm hearing about the Legionaries, would it make sense to fill out the cultist unit to 10 & 6 models? It's just always felt kinda lame to spend the minimal amount of points on troops. Some armies seem to do a good job of using their troops as the as like the backbone of their army, but every time I read about Chaos Space Marines the consensus always seems to be to take as few Chaos Space Marines as possible.
Iggy88 wrote: I've been waiting for Chaos to get updated for a while and I'm pretty happy with the new rules, but I'm wondering about a couple things.
I can't find anything on daemon summoning rituals. Is this gone?
I'd like to take what I own and try to turn it into a primarily daemonkin footslogging list as CoB for the movement and strength. I'm wondering what stuff would be worth looking into/considering alongside the basics. I'm also wondering if any of these units are not worth taking because they're overpriced or outshined by something else.
Demon Prince warlord
Master of Possession - Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
Accursed Cultists & Legionaries - I'd like to deck out the legionaries with the cool chaos stuff like the tome and demon weapon, but reading through this it sounds like a waste of points?
Possessed
Chaos Spawns
Obliterators
Thanks!
Demon summoning is still around. Its rules are in the chaos demons book. So they are still applicable.
Go ahead and use the units you listed. There isn't really any unit that is so terrible you will shaft yourself badly if you took them. Legionaires are perfectly fine actually. There is nothing wrong with them. I can see a list with what you listed doing fine. Just give it a try!
Eldenfirefly wrote: BTW, I discovered this trick on reddit. It may solve our problems with overcrowded HQ slots. We can leave aside 55 points and just summon in a herald of Slanaash. She is a psyker that is power level 3. We literally can't fail to summon her. She has just one cast, but that is just right for us to use her to do psychic actions instead of using our Master of possession. And she is cheap at 55 points.
So, hide our MOP comfartably behind obscuring terrain, far back within our deployment zone. Turn 1, don't move him, do the demonic ritual. Summon the herald of slanaash. You can place her within 12 inches of the MOP, so she can be further up (perhaps right behind our terminator bloc?). And then she can just follow our terminator bloc and do warp ritual or mental interrogation. And meanwhile, our MOP can continue to stay far back out of deny range and cast his buff spells at will.
Definitely useful for a few more weeks at least until the Daemons codex releases. Daemons leaks look to radically alter the calculus on everything if true. Too many to list here, but worth looking up if you have the time.
Does the Slaaneshi spell Delightful Agonies work on mortal wounds? Could I give MoS to Legionaries, cast the 5+++ on themselves, and then use the save to mitigate mortal wound damage from MoP sacrificial dagger?
Iggy88 wrote: Does the Slaaneshi spell Delightful Agonies work on mortal wounds? Could I give MoS to Legionaries, cast the 5+++ on themselves, and then use the save to mitigate mortal wound damage from MoP sacrificial dagger?
I'd like to get some feedback on a Nightlords list I want to try out. I want to maximize the combo of the Night Lord trait with the -1ld from fearsome that some units get. My group has also decided to not implement the CP changes from Nephilim so it's the standard 12CP to start.
Spoiler:
[-4CP, 2,000pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Legion: Night Lords
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour [ -1CP, 125pts]: 1. Flames of Spite, Claws of the Stygian Count, Exalted power axe, Gifts of Chaos, Lightning Claw, Mark of Slaanesh, Scourging Chains, Warlord
Master of Possession [ -2CP, 120pts]: 6. Dirty Fighter, Aspiring Lord, Gifts of Chaos, Liber Hereticus, Mark of Slaanesh, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
General plan is to keep the havocs and Legionaries back to midfield, Raptors and Obliterators deep strike, possessed, spawn, and Accursed cultists move up the board. The Termi Block does what it does with the MoP, dirty fighter hopefully will help with any chargers and liber hereticus allows the juicy triple cast.
p5freak wrote: A priest is not worth its points. He is way too expensive for one prayer. A tzeentch MoP or sorcerer can cast three psychic powers (with a strat).
I don't disagree entirely, it's an unwieldy unit, especially with the attendants, its combat value is marginal at best. Word Bearers can invest and get 2 prayers per turn and potentially improve its combat potential, so there's that. Furthermore, CSMHQ is heavily impacted already, especially if you're trying to limit yourself to a single detachment.
However, it does provide some buffs that are unavailable anywhere else. As with most things, I suspect it comes down to army composition, legion choice, and tactical preference. Under the right circumstances I suspect it's indispensable.
Its a bit of a shame that he cannot also take liber hereticus to extend his chants by 6. Getting an extra chant would make that relic OP.
Really dumb that most legions cant get this guy to not only know another chant but also cast another chant without serious CP investment. Its a bit of a shame because theres some really fun design space for a slappy priest as with the nurgle daemon weapon as a back up if he ever gets threatened. But if you taking potency you aint taking anything else.
8 attacks that auto wound at -3 AP and D2 ignoring wound caps.
Yeah, plus if you want to talk about combat, CSM has lots of other characters that already inherently fight better than the Dark Apostle. So they would benefit even more from melee buffs than the Dark Apostle. Even a master of executions at only 65 points fights much better than a Dark Apostle. Not to mention just about every other non-castor character in the codex fights better than he does at base stats.
So, if you want to spend any kind of CP for relics or warlord traits, its better off spending them on your other characters than on him.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: I'd like to get some feedback on a Nightlords list I want to try out. I want to maximize the combo of the Night Lord trait with the -1ld from fearsome that some units get. My group has also decided to not implement the CP changes from Nephilim so it's the standard 12CP to start.
You do know that auras with the same name (fearsome and terror tactics) dont stack ?
EviscerationPlague wrote: No gak Sherlock that Power Fists cost points. Still better than being perpetually stuck with Accursed Weapons.
Except the article was highlighting the budget value of Chosen so just tossing PF as a counter and making no comparative analysis doesn't really make sense does it?
Chosen v MEQ
4 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 1.18 / 25 = 0.047
Terminator w/ PF
3 * .5 * .833 * .666 * 2 = 1.66 / 38 = 0.044
Amazing. I'm not sure how I'll get by without power fists.
EviscerationPlague wrote: No gak Sherlock that Power Fists cost points. Still better than being perpetually stuck with Accursed Weapons.
Except the article was highlighting the budget value of Chosen so just tossing PF as a counter and making no comparative analysis doesn't really make sense does it?
Chosen v MEQ
4 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 1.18 / 25 = 0.047
Terminator w/ PF
3 * .5 * .833 * .666 * 2 = 1.66 / 38 = 0.044
Amazing. I'm not sure how I'll get by without power fists.
You know what's even more budget than Chosen? Spawn.
Chosen have no role and don't need a defense from you LOL
Kharne the Befriender wrote: I'd like to get some feedback on a Nightlords list I want to try out. I want to maximize the combo of the Night Lord trait with the -1ld from fearsome that some units get. My group has also decided to not implement the CP changes from Nephilim so it's the standard 12CP to start.
Spoiler:
[-4CP, 2,000pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Legion: Night Lords
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour [ -1CP, 125pts]: 1. Flames of Spite, Claws of the Stygian Count, Exalted power axe, Gifts of Chaos, Lightning Claw, Mark of Slaanesh, Scourging Chains, Warlord
Master of Possession [ -2CP, 120pts]: 6. Dirty Fighter, Aspiring Lord, Gifts of Chaos, Liber Hereticus, Mark of Slaanesh, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
General plan is to keep the havocs and Legionaries back to midfield, Raptors and Obliterators deep strike, possessed, spawn, and Accursed cultists move up the board. The Termi Block does what it does with the MoP, dirty fighter hopefully will help with any chargers and liber hereticus allows the juicy triple cast.
Will probably deep strike the lord but we'll see
You can take as many Cultist Units as you have CORE Units. So you could pack another 150 points Accursed Cultist unit and a normal Cultist unit for a backfield objective, instead of the Legionaires. In your list you have 5 CORE Units, so you could have 5 Cultist Units.
Pro-Tip: Cultist Champion can take Bolt Pistol - strength 4. My cultists actually killed a dude with it first time in forever.
Get rid of the flamer on your Havocs and one spawn and pack 4 combimelta and 2 heavyflamer and one chain fist on the champ. That way they are a unit that does damage and needs to be taken care of.
Then you bring them in with from the night 9 inch from weak enemy troops 24 inches within your mop. You flame and melta around. Your Accursed Cultists follow up. You try and fail the charge your enemies weak troops fail moral. turn your enemy charges your terminator with something nice. They stand cuz of buffs. Your second turn, you underhand scheming 1 CP away and fall back closer to his running away screaming weak troops. You charge them with your terminators while your Accursed Cultists charge his good troups and block charge possibilities to your terminators. Your Terminator Lord comes in and fails his charge. You sound the black hunt with your terminators and kill his remaining weak troops.
His second turn is getting a hold of your terminators to tangle them or shoot them which you protected again or pushes deep into your backfield - but that doesn't matter, as it is a hunt and in a hunt you don't defend.
In your third turn you turn around and contempt over caution for 1 CP all your shooting in his good troops tangled with your Accursed Cultists and go for more juicy weak troops to bring the fear into his lines with your lord and terminators or charge his good troops, but that the greater Possessed and obliterators can do. As it is more important to hunt his troops to the ends of the battlefield and purge them from objective markers.
Iggy88 wrote: I've been waiting for Chaos to get updated for a while and I'm pretty happy with the new rules, but I'm wondering about a couple things.
For CoB Obliterators attacking with their fists, would they receive the +1S before their fists double the Strength? (S11 or S12?). And, if they were buffed with Mutated Invigoration, would that buff occur before or after the doubling strength?
For MoT, if an enemy wounds the unit with, say, some bolters and a plasmagun or a lascannon, do I get to pick the order that I take those saves? Like, I would get to choose to take the lascannon/plasma gun save first so if it fails the damage becomes 0 instead of a bolter shot becoming damage 0?
Is there anything in the book that allows you to have cultists to fill your compulsory troop choices? Specifically the mutant cultists. I'd really like to have a mutant themed army but it seems, unless I forgo troops altogether, I'll need at least 2x5 Legionaries (+cultists) to fill out the battalion requirements.
I can't find anything on daemon summoning rituals. Is this gone?
I'd like to take what I own and try to turn it into a primarily daemonkin footslogging list as CoB for the movement and strength. I'm wondering what stuff would be worth looking into/considering alongside the basics. I'm also wondering if any of these units are not worth taking because they're overpriced or outshined by something else.
Demon Prince warlord
Master of Possession - Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
Accursed Cultists & Legionaries - I'd like to deck out the legionaries with the cool chaos stuff like the tome and demon weapon, but reading through this it sounds like a waste of points?
Possessed
Chaos Spawns
Obliterators
I have other stuff, like way too many berserkers, sorcerer, apostle, exalted champ, warp talons, raptors, a chaos dreadnought, way too many terminators--how viable is a 10-man unit of terminators w/o Abaddon? I love terminators but have always felt like they weren't too great, especially in a chaos army. Even though they're not daemonkin, I would certainly consider running a large mob down the center of the board.
I've heard a lot about the Lord Discordant but I'm just not really into any of the daemon engines. The defiler and the heldrake are alright, the other stuff I don't care for. I much prefer predators/land raiders to the daemon engines, or dreadnought-like stuff (decimator), but I don't feel particularly compelled to fill out the army list with vehicles. Should I reconsider and look at combining daemon engines with the daemonkin, or can I get everything I need from the daemonkin + traitor marines?
I saw someone mentioned that Prescience isn't as good because CSM are better at melee, but I'm confused because doesn't Prescience work for both shooting and melee? Couldn't I take a 5-man legionaries unit with the tome and Prescience, cast +1 to hit on the Obliterators on turn 1, and then if the unit survives, cast it again on Possessed when they reach combat? It also adds more Deny attempts since the MoP only gets 1 deny, plus you could have a couple cheap units casting smite. For 20pts you can make the marines sort of like faux grey knights/TSs and you could take the same 1 or 2 spells a couple times so they could be cast from different locations depending on who needs it, and you'd have another unit to cast it if that one dies. For example, 2 5-man units with MoT (or any Mark, really) and Prescience for 250pts total; they can buff a friendly unit with Prescience, or themselves for a 4++, or cast Smite. If one of them dies, you still have Prescience.
Finally, I'm thinking about taking 2 Legionaries units and 1 Accursed Cultist unit for my battalion. Would these be best taken as minimal units or, unlike what I'm hearing about the Legionaries, would it make sense to fill out the cultist unit to 10 & 6 models? It's just always felt kinda lame to spend the minimal amount of points on troops. Some armies seem to do a good job of using their troops as the as like the backbone of their army, but every time I read about Chaos Space Marines the consensus always seems to be to take as few Chaos Space Marines as possible.
Thanks!
1.
You can take as many Cultist Units as you have CORE Units. So Havocs, Terminators, Raptors
2.
Your opponent shoots his weapons, so when he shot bolter first, then you need to roll against bolter.
3. Prescience not that important any more, because unmodified 6es explode. Not boosted ones as in 8th edition. Otherwise prescience still fine.
4. First the strength is on, and the mutated invigoration as it is from the psychic phase and then it gets doubled. I would say.
5. People not feeling psychers in Legionaires, as it is 40 points for guy and tome and it can be shot of in a round even if they are nurgle.
6. I would go for 5 man squads, I tried 10 man Legionaires in an attempt to create a Battalion list I call Abadons Legionado (all rights reserved) and I couldn't hid them because 10 guys take so much space and they got shot of the table one after another even when they were nurgle.
1.
You can take as many Cultist Units as you have CORE Units. So Havocs, Terminators, Raptors
2.
Your opponent shoots his weapons, so when he shot bolter first, then you need to roll against bolter.
3. Prescience not that important any more, because unmodified 6es explode. Not boosted ones as in 8th edition. Otherwise prescience still fine.
4. First the strength is on, and the mutated invigoration as it is from the psychic phase and then it gets doubled. I would say.
5. People not feeling psychers in Legionaires, as it is 40 points for guy and tome and it can be shot of in a round even if they are nurgle.
6. I would go for 5 man squads, I tried 10 man Legionaires in an attempt to create a Battalion list I call Abadons Legionado (all rights reserved) and I couldn't hid them because 10 guys take so much space and they got shot of the table one after another even when they were nurgle.
1. Not true. You cant have more cultists than infantry. Core has nothing to do with this.
2. The player who contols the unit allocates wounds to a (already wounded) model in the unit. A smart opponent will shoot his bolter first, making your tzeentch mark useless against a heavy weapon which he shoots later, because the mark only works on the first failed saving throw.
3. +1 to hit is much more important than 6s do additional hits.
4. Its all described in the core rules, modifying characteristics.
5. I think 40 points for a protected psyker is fair.
6. Yes, 5 man squads. Keep them cheap.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: I'd like to get some feedback on a Nightlords list I want to try out. I want to maximize the combo of the Night Lord trait with the -1ld from fearsome that some units get. My group has also decided to not implement the CP changes from Nephilim so it's the standard 12CP to start.
You do know that auras with the same name (fearsome and terror tactics) dont stack ?
But the names and abilities are different? Is there an FAQ I missed that states this doesn't work? Genuinely curious because I haven't seen anyone suggest this yet.
Spoiler:
Fip wrote:
Kharne the Befriender wrote: I'd like to get some feedback on a Nightlords list I want to try out. I want to maximize the combo of the Night Lord trait with the -1ld from fearsome that some units get. My group has also decided to not implement the CP changes from Nephilim so it's the standard 12CP to start.
[spoiler]
[-4CP, 2,000pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Legion: Night Lords
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour [ -1CP, 125pts]: 1. Flames of Spite, Claws of the Stygian Count, Exalted power axe, Gifts of Chaos, Lightning Claw, Mark of Slaanesh, Scourging Chains, Warlord
Master of Possession [ -2CP, 120pts]: 6. Dirty Fighter, Aspiring Lord, Gifts of Chaos, Liber Hereticus, Mark of Slaanesh, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
General plan is to keep the havocs and Legionaries back to midfield, Raptors and Obliterators deep strike, possessed, spawn, and Accursed cultists move up the board. The Termi Block does what it does with the MoP, dirty fighter hopefully will help with any chargers and liber hereticus allows the juicy triple cast.
Will probably deep strike the lord but we'll see
You can take as many Cultist Units as you have CORE Units. So you could pack another 150 points Accursed Cultist unit and a normal Cultist unit for a backfield objective, instead of the Legionaires. In your list you have 5 CORE Units, so you could have 5 Cultist Units.
Pro-Tip: Cultist Champion can take Bolt Pistol - strength 4. My cultists actually killed a dude with it first time in forever.
Get rid of the flamer on your Havocs and one spawn and pack 4 combimelta and 2 heavyflamer and one chain fist on the champ. That way they are a unit that does damage and needs to be taken care of.
Then you bring them in with from the night 9 inch from weak enemy troops 24 inches within your mop. You flame and melta around. Your Accursed Cultists follow up. You try and fail the charge your enemies weak troops fail moral. turn your enemy charges your terminator with something nice. They stand cuz of buffs. Your second turn, you underhand scheming 1 CP away and fall back closer to his running away screaming weak troops. You charge them with your terminators while your Accursed Cultists charge his good troups and block charge possibilities to your terminators. Your Terminator Lord comes in and fails his charge. You sound the black hunt with your terminators and kill his remaining weak troops.
His second turn is getting a hold of your terminators to tangle them or shoot them which you protected again or pushes deep into your backfield - but that doesn't matter, as it is a hunt and in a hunt you don't defend.
In your third turn you turn around and contempt over caution for 1 CP all your shooting in his good troops tangled with your Accursed Cultists and go for more juicy weak troops to bring the fear into his lines with your lord and terminators or charge his good troops, but that the greater Possessed and obliterators can do. As it is more important to hunt his troops to the ends of the battlefield and purge them from objective markers.
Investing in the termies is an interesting idea, I'm using the contekars as a proxy hence the basic loadout, but I'll give this build a try!
Also as for Cultists over legionaires I'm worries that it might make my backfield too weak, if my opponent despstrikes anything the cultists will just be swept away. 5 Legionaries may not be super durable but I think they'd stand a better chance.
I am curious to see how the Accursed cultists perform though, I'll see if I can make points for a second squad
Daedalus81 wrote: Except the article was highlighting the budget value of Chosen so just tossing PF as a counter and making no comparative analysis doesn't really make sense does it?
Chosen v MEQ
4 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 1.18 / 25 = 0.047
Terminator w/ PF
3 * .5 * .833 * .666 * 2 = 1.66 / 38 = 0.044
Amazing. I'm not sure how I'll get by without power fists.
EC changes the calculus a bit on that. Again, a lot of the CSM choices come down to legion, playstyle, and preference. I mean, at the end of the day, it's the Abaddon fan club codex, so if you're playing anything other than Abaddon/BL you're going to have to work a bit harder to get your full mileage, but there's some options out there, as long as you're not new to the faction, in which case, GW can't even be bothered to support getting into the army.
1.
You can take as many Cultist Units as you have CORE Units. So Havocs, Terminators, Raptors
2.
Your opponent shoots his weapons, so when he shot bolter first, then you need to roll against bolter.
3. Prescience not that important any more, because unmodified 6es explode. Not boosted ones as in 8th edition. Otherwise prescience still fine.
4. First the strength is on, and the mutated invigoration as it is from the psychic phase and then it gets doubled. I would say.
5. People not feeling psychers in Legionaires, as it is 40 points for guy and tome and it can be shot of in a round even if they are nurgle.
6. I would go for 5 man squads, I tried 10 man Legionaires in an attempt to create a Battalion list I call Abadons Legionado (all rights reserved) and I couldn't hid them because 10 guys take so much space and they got shot of the table one after another even when they were nurgle.
1. Not true. You cant have more cultists than infantry. Core has nothing to do with this.
2. The player who contols the unit allocates wounds to a (already wounded) model in the unit. A smart opponent will shoot his bolter first, making your tzeentch mark useless against a heavy weapon which he shoots later, because the mark only works on the first failed saving throw.
3. +1 to hit is much more important than 6s do additional hits.
4. Its all described in the core rules, modifying characteristics.
5. I think 40 points for a protected psyker is fair.
6. Yes, 5 man squads. Keep them cheap.
1. Page 76: "You cannot include more Cultist Units than traitoris Astartes core infantry in each chaos space marines detachment"
3. Page 145 it always is an unmodified hit roll of 6 in each wanton. +1 to hit equals extra hits on 6, as both increase hits by ~17%. It is more, when you play against an enemy with priest with illusory supplicant. Because then hit rolls of 1-3 always fail, even with +1.
Vatsetis wrote: What proxy could you use for torments if you didnt wanted to buy GW offcial kit?
It dosent need to be a GW mini.
Thanks in advance.
I was planning to use some of the minis from the Cthulhu Wars games that I have regardless, if I decide to field them at all. Might actually motivate me to paint them.
Iggy88 wrote: Does the Slaaneshi spell Delightful Agonies work on mortal wounds? Could I give MoS to Legionaries, cast the 5+++ on themselves, and then use the save to mitigate mortal wound damage from MoP sacrificial dagger?
Yes, that works.
But it's worth noting that you won't be able to use your 5+++ against the dagger if you're using the dagger to cast Delightful Agonies. The 5+++ won't come into effect until after you've completed the casting roll. It'll be there if you're using the dagger for the next cast.
1. Page 76: "You cannot include more Cultist Units than traitoris Astartes core infantry in each chaos space marines detachment"
You said core, which is incorrect. Bikers and helbrutes are core. You cant have two cultist units and two helbrutes, or two biker units. It has to be traitoris astartes core infantry.
1. Page 76: "You cannot include more Cultist Units than traitoris Astartes core infantry in each chaos space marines detachment"
You said core, which is incorrect. Bikers and helbrutes are core. You cant have two cultist units and two helbrutes, or two biker units. It has to be traitoris astartes core infantry.
Just an update of more testing with black legion (because that's my favourite legion). In particular the strategem confluence of traitors. This is a huge strategem for black legion.
However, because confluence of traitors strategem is once a game (so we need to make it count), so I tend to use it for just one thing only, which is to get the red corsairs trait of advance and charge. Nothing else quite has the same kind of impact.
1. It gets either Abaddon or the big terminator/chosen/ whatever 10 man squad brick into combat. And to be able to suddenly speed up a slow moving infantry squad such that it can now charge something reliably whereas before that, it was a long bomb charge is massive. And it gets them up the board.
2. The other legion traits are more defensive in nature, but opponents can play around defensive traits. Short of presenting nothing but that one big target to his entire army, otherwise, he can just select to shoot or fight something else. There is the Alpha legion fall back and charge. But Black Legion has a 2CP strategem that allows for fall back and shoot plus charge. So, again, we don't need to use confluence of traitors for that. There is the creation of bile trait which is great too. But again, fight on death is something that can be played around. Your opponent already knows you have this one unit that can fight on death, then he just needs to take that into account during his fight phase. In practise, it is extremely difficult to make good use of this trait on just one unit. It works in a full creations of bile list because every unit has fight on death. It is much less effective when only one unit has it plus you need to foresee it will be engaged in melee and that it will die because you have to use the strategem in your command phase.
3. Also, even its just once a game, advance and charge essentially opens up list building for black legion. You can drop the Slanaash Dark Apostle. It was very clunky to use. You wanted him for illusionary suppliocation, and you also wanted him to give slanaash units advance and charge. But you can only do one thing as black legion dark apostles. You can't do both. And since black legion can get advance and charge from confluence of traitros by giving a unit (including Abaddon) red corsairs trait, then this eliminates half the reason to bring a dark apostle. And bringing a slanaash dark apostle is expensive! It is 110 points for a guy who does one prayer a turn with mediocre fighting abilitie (at base equipment and stats). Also, it opens up black legion list building in other ways. You are not constrained to using ten man terminators or chosen for your center 10 man block. You can consider using a 10 man plague marine squad since you can give them advance and charge too. They don't need to be slanaash. You can also go 10 man possessed. Essentially, the composition of your center 10 man brick is not limited to something that has to take mark of slanaash and it can still benefit from getting advance and charge.
And since I was talking about defensive buffs. The MOP can be given a relevant mark which will open up defensive psychic for tzeentch as well as for nurgle if we want. Again, we are not limited to slanaash, although delightful agonies is supposedly the best defensive psychic. But nurgle putrid miasma isn't bad. -1 to hit is almost as good as having illusionary supplication, and it now opens up the ten man unit to getting grandfatherly blessing (transhuman). Tzeentch is also good defensively and you can now cast skeins of fate to give the 10 man unit a 4++ invul save.
4. The illusionary supplication also tends to be overkill on the ten man block we bring anyway. Especially if you also have the MOP casting defensive buffs on the unit (as seen above), and healing and rezzing one model every turn. Unless your opponent is a newbie and litereally wants to try to throw his entire army into that one unit as a challenge to see if he can kill it, otherwise, any other experienced player will just target something else. So, given how valuable HQ slots are, being able to skip the dark apostle and yet still have access to half of his perks is great for black legion.
5. Confluence of traitors is guaranteed to go off. Its not a prayer. Even the dark apostle can roll a 1 and fail his prayer at a key moment. Confluence can never fail. For that key moment when you want to make your play with that big brick or with Abaddon, you want a guaranteed thing rather than something that will only go off 5 out of 6 of the times, because there will be the time you roll a 1 for that prayer at that key moment.
So, yeah... I guess to sum up for my games recently with black legion. I have two main observations.
1. We don't really need a dark apostle. It opens up black legion list building to more options.
2. For confluence of traitors strategem, the most often use for it is to give advance and charge to a key unit at a key moment in the game. For me, I have used Confluence to get something else besides the red corsairs legion trait just once. Every other game I have played with black legion, I used it to get the red corsairs advance and charge trait.
Automatically Appended Next Post: An additional point I want to raise on list building. We all observed that the center brick with Abaddon tends to be avoided by good players because its just too hard to fight and its slow moving anyway.
Black legion being able to give one advance and charge changes things. Plus we do have access to the psychic warptime.
We can use that one "unkillable" 10 man block to escort a hero hammer version of a list up the board where a lot of the killing power are all in characters.
So, turn 1, warptime plus advance up a 10 man block of terminators aggressively to the board center. A whole bunch of characters will follow behind them. Be it abaddon plus some master of execution plus daemon prince, or even a Lord discordant. There will be a whole bunch of characters protected by the ten man squad advancing behind this ten man brick.
Everything else hides literally. So, now our opponent has literally nothing to shoot except the 10 man brick that is unkillable.
Turn 2, we give one unit (probably abaddon) advance and charge, and everything else just goes off in whatever direction they please and charges something. Be it DP, Lord discordant, MOEs, Abaddon, even the 10 man squad too. We can supplement this with deep striking units or mobile jump pack units. Abaddon especially gives core units +1 to charge.
So, this type of list uses the concept of presenting nothing but that one unkillable target on turn 1 to get everything else into position for a devastating charge on turn 2.
With warptime and an advance. the ten man brick is going to be quite far up the middle of the board on turn 1, and all the characters will be following close behind with their own move advance. (units like LD and flying DP are naturally fast anyway). So, their turn 2 charge will have a massive threat range projected out from the middle of the board. Hmmm, a slanaash dark apostle might be ok for such a list because turn 1 illusion, turn 2 give a slanaash unit advance and charge. Since we are presenting only one target for our opponent to shoot at or charge on turn 1, might as well make it as unkillable as possible.
Its an interesting concept that I confess I haven't tried out yet. And it has two weakness. Firstly, it can be move blocked. If an opponent is able to successfully move block the big ten man brick, everything else is move blocked behind that brick. Secondly, there are other armies out there which are also melee focused. Is our army able to outfight such armies?
Just a quick list I made from this concept.
HQ: Abaddon, Flying slanaash DP, Slanaash Dark Apostle, Slanaash MOP.
Troops: 3 units of cultists
Elites: 1 10 man termie squad with 2 chainfists, 2X 5 man termie squad (champ chainfist), 2 MOE.
FA: 3 x 5 barebones raptor squads.
So, both 5 man termie units and 2 or 3 raptor squads in deepstrike and pay 1 CP for 2 cultist squads to go into strategic reserve.
Turn 1: Ten man brick gets warptime and escorts all the characters up field. Gets all the defense buffs, tanks all the shooting.
Turn 2: Two units get advance and charge, most of the deep strike come in. Raptors and cultists play the mission, the terminators drop in, shoot and charge. All the raptors and the termies can get +1 to charge from Abaddon if they are within 6 inches. MOEs, Flying DP, Abaddon all fan out and charge as well.
I'm unsure what I want or should do for my 1-3 troop units in a patrol or battalion. I was hoping to fill the troops with accursed cultists, though since they can't make actions I'm not sure if that would've been a smart move anyway. Since Possessed and Obliterators aren't core, I think only my 1 unit of terminators would work in my 2k list. Though I guess I could have 2 units of accursed cultists with 1 unit of legionaries and the terminators.
So, I guess, are people finding taking 5 legionaries without upgrades for 90 points the way to go for a troop selection? The Balefire tome is what I was using for Prescience to cast either on the Obliterators or the Possessed. I know it doesn't add to the exploding 6s, but it still is +1 to hit and combined with the Lord's rerolling 1s to hit it seems like it could be a decent way to get close to a 100% accuracy.
My thought was taking a 5-man unit and giving them the Tome plus a mark. Is it really better to just give them nothing?
I'm unsure what I want or should do for my 1-3 troop units in a patrol or battalion. I was hoping to fill the troops with accursed cultists, though since they can't make actions I'm not sure if that would've been a smart move anyway. Since Possessed and Obliterators aren't core, I think only my 1 unit of terminators would work in my 2k list. Though I guess I could have 2 units of accursed cultists with 1 unit of legionaries and the terminators.
So, I guess, are people finding taking 5 legionaries without upgrades for 90 points the way to go for a troop selection? The Balefire tome is what I was using for Prescience to cast either on the Obliterators or the Possessed. I know it doesn't add to the exploding 6s, but it still is +1 to hit and combined with the Lord's rerolling 1s to hit it seems like it could be a decent way to get close to a 100% accuracy.
My thought was taking a 5-man unit and giving them the Tome plus a mark. Is it really better to just give them nothing?
A 5 man unit with a tome and a mark is fine. You get a psyker unit that can cast one of the mark psychic. I have tried such a unit in quite few games and I totally didn't regret it. Its perfectly fine really. It can be used as a sacrifice for the MOP's sacrificial dagger. It can guard your MOP much better than a squad of ten cultists. It can hold an backline objective. It can cast a mark specific psychic each turn, and if you want, you can even march it up towards the midfield to give obsec for contesting the midfield. Its very flexible. Most likely its won't be targeted much by your opponent because there are so many other better targets he can shoot his good guns at. And incidental small arms fire will definitely not kill it.
I am finding 5 man Khorne unit with icon and champ power fist and heavy chain axe is pretty good too. It costs130 points. But its obsec and it packs a punch in melee. Because of the power fist and heavy chain axe, and Khorne icon, you have 4 AP4 Str 9 attacks and 3 AP5 Str 9 attacks. You can handle anything in the game from infantry to elite infantry to vehicles. You also have the option to fight twice with 2CP to really crack up the damage if you need to. Its no more expensive than a 5 man squad of chosen at 125 points or a squad of possessed at 140 points, and both chosen and possessed have a problem fighting T6 and above, and are not obsec. You can hold such a squad as a reserve counter punch unit. Keep it hidden behind obscuring in cover until the time you want to commit it into battle. It will do work during the turn it charges into combat. Even if it dies after that, its probably accomplished its job, and at the very least, helped you take back that objective it charged into that turn. (So, good for secondary like The Long War). I have tried out a few games with this load out and they haven't let me down.
Yeah I'd wager Red Corsairs is the best bet. Advance and Charge is just super powerful and their trait might even help with keeping an objective a bit while you try to get everything else up the board.
I'm unsure what I want or should do for my 1-3 troop units in a patrol or battalion. I was hoping to fill the troops with accursed cultists, though since they can't make actions I'm not sure if that would've been a smart move anyway. Since Possessed and Obliterators aren't core, I think only my 1 unit of terminators would work in my 2k list. Though I guess I could have 2 units of accursed cultists with 1 unit of legionaries and the terminators.
So, I guess, are people finding taking 5 legionaries without upgrades for 90 points the way to go for a troop selection? The Balefire tome is what I was using for Prescience to cast either on the Obliterators or the Possessed. I know it doesn't add to the exploding 6s, but it still is +1 to hit and combined with the Lord's rerolling 1s to hit it seems like it could be a decent way to get close to a 100% accuracy.
My thought was taking a 5-man unit and giving them the Tome plus a mark. Is it really better to just give them nothing?
A 5 man unit with a tome and a mark is fine. You get a psyker unit that can cast one of the mark psychic. I have tried such a unit in quite few games and I totally didn't regret it. Its perfectly fine really. It can be used as a sacrifice for the MOP's sacrificial dagger. It can guard your MOP much better than a squad of ten cultists. It can hold an backline objective. It can cast a mark specific psychic each turn, and if you want, you can even march it up towards the midfield to give obsec for contesting the midfield. Its very flexible. Most likely its won't be targeted much by your opponent because there are so many other better targets he can shoot his good guns at. And incidental small arms fire will definitely not kill it.
I am finding 5 man Khorne unit with icon and champ power fist and heavy chain axe is pretty good too. It costs130 points. But its obsec and it packs a punch in melee. Because of the power fist and heavy chain axe, and Khorne icon, you have 4 AP4 Str 9 attacks and 3 AP5 Str 9 attacks. You can handle anything in the game from infantry to elite infantry to vehicles. You also have the option to fight twice with 2CP to really crack up the damage if you need to. Its no more expensive than a 5 man squad of chosen at 125 points or a squad of possessed at 140 points, and both chosen and possessed have a problem fighting T6 and above, and are not obsec. You can hold such a squad as a reserve counter punch unit. Keep it hidden behind obscuring in cover until the time you want to commit it into battle. It will do work during the turn it charges into combat. Even if it dies after that, its probably accomplished its job, and at the very least, helped you take back that objective it charged into that turn. (So, good for secondary like The Long War). I have tried out a few games with this load out and they haven't let me down.
While the extra AP from the Khorne icon helps the Chainswords, the real meat of the damage will be a Power Fist Champ and the Heavy Chainaxe. This is a situation where grabbing MoS with the Icon instead is a lot better.
That's actually very good information and gives me a lot to consider. I like the idea of using Icon of Slaanesh to negate the modifier for the fist and axe, especially with CoB since I already have the +1S.
Does the Icon go on the unit as a whole or a specific model? The rule uses the word "bearer" but on battlescribe it is suggesting that the icon is not taking the place of one of the standard legionaries the way the weapon/tome does.
I imagine a marked unit with a fist & icon, tome, and chain axe for 150pts would be reason enough to be shot off the board.
Suppose I’ll have to experiment with lists to see what I’m actually giving up by taking those upgrades, and how useful they end up being, even if just for the flexibility.
It seems like marks+icons and the tome are the unique things legionaries offer. I’m not sure what else can combine the marks with the icons, and the ability to turn a troop unit into a psyker seems like a powerful option.
I can’t find another way to fit Prescience into my army, and although it’s not as powerful as it used to be it still seems worth including, especially when combined with WS3+ guys and a Lord aura.
Ah, for other legions, it would make sense to have the +1 to hit from running MOS for the power fist and heavy chain axe loadout. I guess because I have been playing with mostly black legion at this point. Hence, I get +1 to hit in many situations anyway, so I go with Khorne for the +1 str and +1AP. I mean, it makes it such that even the other 12 attacks with the other 3 dudes are Str 5 Ap2 attacks, which is pretty good. And having AP4 and AP5 is pretty wild. It goes through even 2+ saves like a knife through butter lol.
These units are becoming the central theme of the lists I've come up with and I'm wondering how best to continue. I'd like more Obliterators and Possessed, and to make the Legionaries more than just army tax. I was thinking based on the information above, giving them a power fist, icon, MoS, and a tome with prescience for 140 points. Add another Obliterator to make them an ideal target for turn 1 prescience if it goes off. Otherwise, I could add a Venomcrawler.
I'm thinking for a battalion I will want to have 2x5 Legionaries with a power fist, icon, MoS, and tome with prescience. That way either unit can cast Prescience and the other Delightful Agonies. Put Prescience on the Oblits or Possessed, and then put Delightful Agonies on whichever Legionaries unit is going to be sacrificed with the dagger. That leaves the power fist and icon champion to deal out some pain in close combat while sharing the benefit of taking the MoS, since I think the spell has some synergy with being a sacrificial ObSec unit. Or am I just wasting 2x50 points?
Over 1,000 points I'm looking at a Sorcerer & Terminators, and more possessed, obliterators, and the 2nd legionaries unit. Instead of the sorcerer/terminators, I could go with some demon engines, maybe a venomcrawler and heldrake. But really I'm trying to figure out how to complete a 1000 point patrol to start.
Hmm.. I haven't seen that many people talking about running Khorne DPs. But its fine if you like it. I think the general view is that DP gain more from other marks than khorne, because the one additional psychic they gain is more valuable than just +1 attack and +1 strength. Because you can gain additional attacks in other ways (relics or such) and using a sword already gives you Strength 8.
My Khorne DP is partly a remnant from primarily playing World Eaters, so I’ve always had a khorne DP and since I’ve given up on playing World Eaters, I’m hoping to use it to satisfy that itch while playing a more “balanced” list. Ironically, Chaos are more focused on melee than ever, so I found myself playing a predominantly melee army despite giving up on mono Khorne.
The tactical reason I didn’t make it a psyker is simply cuz at 1500+ points I’ll have a MoP and Sorcerer, so I don’t really have any other spells I want to cast besides Prescience, which I can put on my troops for 20 points.
I’m unsure if there’s a better way to equip the DP or if the relics should go elsewhere. The dude has 12 strength! With MoK, it has a base 10S on first round of combat due to the sword, but with CoB and the warlord trait, it just goes up. I think he’d do better with more AP and/or damage.
Can someone help me with how the double relics work? I thought it said you can only take 2 relics if 1 of them is a weapon, but neither can be demon weapons and everything seems to be a demon weapon.
Just the hellforged sword that most people are bringing on their DP is already a great weapon since its +1 Str, AP3 and Damage 3. It honestly will be perfectly fine for most situations.
I suppose we could further upgrade that by making it into Zaall, the Wrathful daemon weapon so that it is now +1 Str, AP3, and 3+D3 damage. lol But it almost sounds like overkill. That extra D3 damage each strike will only matter when you are attacking knights or extra chonky models with tons of HP.
I mean, is there a vehicle you already can't kill with the base flat 3 damage? (Short of a knights and super heavies). Maybe the new chaos land raider?
If its a Khorne DP, maybe bring non-weapon relics and warlord traits instead because that sword is good enough for most situations already.
That’s why I gave him the talisman for extra threat range and additional attacks as the game progresses. I’m not sure how useful the additional heroic intervention reach will be with only 10 possessed and 10 terminators being combat units.
I’ve been reading bad reviews on here about obliterators. I’m wondering how many people are still using them as heavy weapon platforms. The last edition removed their powerfists and MoS let them shoot twice. But now their fists have returned and their melee attacks seem to be roughly as powerful as the anti-tank gun profile, plus they can shoot into combat. It seems like their points are paying for even more versatility now and if they’re only used as heavy weapons than I imagine havocs would fill that single role more efficiently.
Can anyone help me understand how to use chaos spawn? I saw someone mention a unit of 5 grabbing an objective early on. Is there any merit in a single spawn or a small unit of 2 maybe 3? Do I need 3+ to use them to screen? I’m not finding myself tight with fast attack and wonder if it’s worth spreading them out over multiple units or taking just 1.
Iggy88 wrote: That’s why I gave him the talisman for extra threat range and additional attacks as the game progresses. I’m not sure how useful the additional heroic intervention reach will be with only 10 possessed and 10 terminators being combat units.
I’ve been reading bad reviews on here about obliterators. I’m wondering how many people are still using them as heavy weapon platforms. The last edition removed their powerfists and MoS let them shoot twice. But now their fists have returned and their melee attacks seem to be roughly as powerful as the anti-tank gun profile, plus they can shoot into combat. It seems like their points are paying for even more versatility now and if they’re only used as heavy weapons than I imagine havocs would fill that single role more efficiently.
Can anyone help me understand how to use chaos spawn? I saw someone mention a unit of 5 grabbing an objective early on. Is there any merit in a single spawn or a small unit of 2 maybe 3? Do I need 3+ to use them to screen? I’m not finding myself tight with fast attack and wonder if it’s worth spreading them out over multiple units or taking just 1.
Yes, I agree with you in this case for your Khorne DP.
For Obliterators. I think it depends on what kind of role you foresee for them. But as a dedicated anti-tank, I honestly think they are average only. And you are wasting their melee (which is darn good) if you want to keep them at max 24 inches and just shoot. You either run 3 on the board (mostly) so that your MOP has the option to resurrect one of them, or you can run them as individual 1 man obliterator models that deep strike in. I actually like the one model Obliterator deep strike role. It makes your obliterators much more flexible. You can use both their shooting plus their melee (if you roll a charge successfully). And at 90 points, one obliterator is much cheaper than one unit of 5 terminators. The deep strike shores up their mobility problems. What it doesn't solve is their average shooting. Their shooting just isn't outstanding. It just can't be relied on to kill stuff reliably. Like even on average rolls, I think 3 obliterators will have problems killing one single Rhino in one turn.
On Chaos Spawn, it really depends on what role you want them for. One single spawn is definitely an option. Turn 1, you run the single spawn up onto an objective. And now, your opponent has to kill this one irritating spawn off the objective. Some light infantry just can't kill it because it heals back to full after each shooting unit has gone. Wasting an anti-tank shot or shots on one single spawn feels wasted especially if there are other more valuable targets. If they charge something into it and kill it, its just 25 points, and now it sets you up for a big counter charge into that unit. So, it makes for a great opening move unit trading piece.
Higher number of spawn starts to be able to give Look out sir to your characters, and 3 or more in one unit start to be able to seriously threaten other enemy light infantry. Even 3 is still cheap at 75 points, and 3 are a chore for your opponent to kill. So, yeah, it really depends on what role you see them in. But I love chaos spawn and I have run them many times before in my lists.
One game, one unit got killed down to one model. And that one chaos spawn took and sat on an objective the whole game mostly all by himself. There was just too much else going on for my opponent to devote scarce resources to killing off that one spawn and it scored its weight in gold in primary objectives the rest of the game.
Chaos spawns are great. 1-3 of them can hold your home marker. 5 are great on the offense.
I dont get the negativity on oblits. What better anti armour unit do we have ? 4 LC havocs have 4 shots with unreliable D6 damage. 2 oblits have 4 shots on average with 4 damage. They have 10 T5 wounds just like the havoc unit. Their defense stat is even better at sv 2+ and 5+ inv, and they hit hard in melee.
So looking at all those cool new 30k vehicles up for pre-order next week, do we think GW has forgotten about the entirety of the CSM side of IA? Is it over a month since the codex came out?
These units are becoming the central theme of the lists I've come up with and I'm wondering how best to continue. I'd like more Obliterators and Possessed, and to make the Legionaries more than just army tax. I was thinking based on the information above, giving them a power fist, icon, MoS, and a tome with prescience for 140 points. Add another Obliterator to make them an ideal target for turn 1 prescience if it goes off. Otherwise, I could add a Venomcrawler.
I'm thinking for a battalion I will want to have 2x5 Legionaries with a power fist, icon, MoS, and tome with prescience. That way either unit can cast Prescience and the other Delightful Agonies. Put Prescience on the Oblits or Possessed, and then put Delightful Agonies on whichever Legionaries unit is going to be sacrificed with the dagger. That leaves the power fist and icon champion to deal out some pain in close combat while sharing the benefit of taking the MoS, since I think the spell has some synergy with being a sacrificial ObSec unit. Or am I just wasting 2x50 points?
Over 1,000 points I'm looking at a Sorcerer & Terminators, and more possessed, obliterators, and the 2nd legionaries unit. Instead of the sorcerer/terminators, I could go with some demon engines, maybe a venomcrawler and heldrake. But really I'm trying to figure out how to complete a 1000 point patrol to start.
MoP as Tzeenzch with Liber Hereticus for more range and 3 power of 4++ for Tzeenzch models.
Havocs with heavy Bolters as Tzeenzch.
Tzeenzch rubric marines with flamers with warp time as their psychic.
You have access to Daemon Shells, the great Sorcerer and Warp Borne foresight.
Havocs protec mop, mop can cast from 24 inch distance. Mop casts 3 spells and can protect Rubrics. If something comes in you kill it with warp borne foresight with flamers or Heavy Bolter.
In your turn you advance and warp time with flamers with you can move 6+6+1-6 (depending on advance roll). And you can roast enemies near your cultists as you don't hit your own with content over caution with flamers.
Obliterators 3
More Accursed Cultists, Chaos spawn, and nurgle Terminator stop the enemy in their march while you clear the field.
Edit:
Take a Rhino with Legionaires and drive it infront the Rubrics to protect from mortal wounds.
Best don't let the rhino get charged or let it get charged but without your rubrics in consolidation range.
Fill the rest of the points with possessed.
Maybe 1 legionaire troop with prescience.
What is your opinion on the surgical precision wlt from biles creations? I have so say that I really like it, especially as it goes damn well with deamon weapons. A DP with the trait and the Tzeentch Deamon Blade can munch through most targets. It also goes great along Ulloca the Black, triggering additional mortals on 4+ to hit.
I've been making weird lists that have tons of Fast Attack choices, like a Lord Discordant running up the table with a Venom Crawler, Maulerfiend, a whole stack of Spawn (two full-sized units), Raptors and Warp Talons (who get that Black Rune, 'cause why not?).
Dunno how effective it'd be, but it seems like it could be fun.
These units are becoming the central theme of the lists I've come up with and I'm wondering how best to continue. I'd like more Obliterators and Possessed, and to make the Legionaries more than just army tax. I was thinking based on the information above, giving them a power fist, icon, MoS, and a tome with prescience for 140 points. Add another Obliterator to make them an ideal target for turn 1 prescience if it goes off. Otherwise, I could add a Venomcrawler.
I'm thinking for a battalion I will want to have 2x5 Legionaries with a power fist, icon, MoS, and tome with prescience. That way either unit can cast Prescience and the other Delightful Agonies. Put Prescience on the Oblits or Possessed, and then put Delightful Agonies on whichever Legionaries unit is going to be sacrificed with the dagger. That leaves the power fist and icon champion to deal out some pain in close combat while sharing the benefit of taking the MoS, since I think the spell has some synergy with being a sacrificial ObSec unit. Or am I just wasting 2x50 points?
Over 1,000 points I'm looking at a Sorcerer & Terminators, and more possessed, obliterators, and the 2nd legionaries unit. Instead of the sorcerer/terminators, I could go with some demon engines, maybe a venomcrawler and heldrake. But really I'm trying to figure out how to complete a 1000 point patrol to start.
MoP as Tzeenzch with Liber Hereticus for more range and 3 power of 4++ for Tzeenzch models.
Havocs with heavy Bolters as Tzeenzch.
Tzeenzch rubric marines with flamers with warp time as their psychic.
You have access to Daemon Shells, the great Sorcerer and Warp Borne foresight.
Havocs protec mop, mop can cast from 24 inch distance. Mop casts 3 spells and can protect Rubrics. If something comes in you kill it with warp borne foresight with flamers or Heavy Bolter.
In your turn you advance and warp time with flamers with you can move 6+6+1-6 (depending on advance roll). And you can roast enemies near your cultists as you don't hit your own with content over caution with flamers.
Obliterators 3
More Accursed Cultists, Chaos spawn, and nurgle Terminator stop the enemy in their march while you clear the field.
Edit:
Take a Rhino with Legionaires and drive it infront the Rubrics to protect from mortal wounds.
Best don't let the rhino get charged or let it get charged but without your rubrics in consolidation range.
Thank you for the detailed response!
MoP with the book is what I've been putting in my lists, I just removed it to see if there were other suggestions. I think that's the one, though. I'm not yet convinced on the Mark, though, either Tzeentch or Nurgle for sure, I'm thinking.
MoT makes sense in your suggestion given the addition of Rubricae and Tzeentch Havocs, but I was considering MoN for the Nurgle spell buff on the Terminators (who I plan to mark nurgle). Currently I have him unmarked to save points because it seems the Mark is largely only useful if he's using god-exclusive relics or has a target for the god-specific spell.
I can't see myself taking havocs, honestly, because I love obliterators too much and because Creations of Bile doesn't seem to synergize well with a heavy weapons unit that doesn't want to dabble in melee. They do have the benefit of providing the option to take more cultists, though, and I can see the benefit of access to mark-exclusive stratagems.
As for the Rubricae, you might've been the one talking about them in the previous pages. Someone went so far as to say everyone should have them in their lists and, tbh, I wasn't convinced. But now after having looked at them, it definitely feels like an idea. I don't actually own any, so I'm a little cautious because of how this combination may be treated with the FAQ. My main reason for wanting to avoid them is because I'm trying not to lean too heavily into any one of the marks/gods and am hoping to focus in on the daemonkin stuff. But, man, I do love flamers and have never had the opportunity to use a big flaming unit (I always wanted something like Burna Boyz in my World Eaters army).
I'm definitely going to keep them in consideration, especially if I can come up with a cool proxy alternative (in Dawn of War, possessed could be upgraded to breath fire, so maybe something like Tzeentch possessed flamer thing). In 1k+ I intended to have a Tzeentch Sorcerer casting Warptime on the nurgle terminators (buffed by the nurgle MoP), and then to secondarily be useful for psychic actions. Taking the Rubricae would disrupt a lot of that, so I'll have to play around with what my list would look like otherwise. It would offer the ability to take a different 3rd HQ, though.
The Rubricae definitely seem nice, it's just that I can't afford to have my spellcasters all buffing the same unit if I'm already allocating those spells to different units. Like, the MoP is already buffing the possessed and terminators. I either need to make selections that are functional without direct support like that, or I need to change who is going to be protected. But also with CoB, those Rubricae would be warptime advancing at 7+7+d6, and they'd have S5 (melee) for all the good that'd do lol
So, there are some tournament results in. So far, CSM has done great. We aren't OP and dominating the meta (which is a good sign because it means we won't get nerfed). And all the fears about Abaddon seems to be overblown. But a few CSM players have done very well. There were some CSM lists I saw which did well that didn't even bring Abaddon.
So far, the legions that have won or did very well (like come in 4-1 or 5-1) in GTs that I have observed are:
Black Legion
Night Lords (shocker!!!).
Creations of Bile
Interestingly enough, I haven't seen Emperor's Children or World Bearers win a GT yet, or come in like 5-1 or something. People were pretty sure these two legions were amongst the best legions in CSM. Very interesting. Or maybe I missed something.
I was considering adding a unit of 3 bikers in part as a cheap and quick unit to do actions, such as for the dark gods. But I noticed that they’re the same points as a single obliterator and I was wondering if there was any value in using an obliterator for an action. It feels like a much bigger waste, but it’s the same points investment. Could a single deep striking obliterator be useful for an action?
Iggy88 wrote: I was considering adding a unit of 3 bikers in part as a cheap and quick unit to do actions, such as for the dark gods. But I noticed that they’re the same points as a single obliterator and I was wondering if there was any value in using an obliterator for an action. It feels like a much bigger waste, but it’s the same points investment. Could a single deep striking obliterator be useful for an action?
Any turn an Obliterator is not shooting or in melee is a waste of their abilities.
These units are becoming the central theme of the lists I've come up with and I'm wondering how best to continue. I'd like more Obliterators and Possessed, and to make the Legionaries more than just army tax. I was thinking based on the information above, giving them a power fist, icon, MoS, and a tome with prescience for 140 points. Add another Obliterator to make them an ideal target for turn 1 prescience if it goes off. Otherwise, I could add a Venomcrawler.
I'm thinking for a battalion I will want to have 2x5 Legionaries with a power fist, icon, MoS, and tome with prescience. That way either unit can cast Prescience and the other Delightful Agonies. Put Prescience on the Oblits or Possessed, and then put Delightful Agonies on whichever Legionaries unit is going to be sacrificed with the dagger. That leaves the power fist and icon champion to deal out some pain in close combat while sharing the benefit of taking the MoS, since I think the spell has some synergy with being a sacrificial ObSec unit. Or am I just wasting 2x50 points?
Over 1,000 points I'm looking at a Sorcerer & Terminators, and more possessed, obliterators, and the 2nd legionaries unit. Instead of the sorcerer/terminators, I could go with some demon engines, maybe a venomcrawler and heldrake. But really I'm trying to figure out how to complete a 1000 point patrol to start.
MoP as Tzeenzch with Liber Hereticus for more range and 3 power of 4++ for Tzeenzch models.
Havocs with heavy Bolters as Tzeenzch.
Tzeenzch rubric marines with flamers with warp time as their psychic.
You have access to Daemon Shells, the great Sorcerer and Warp Borne foresight.
Havocs protec mop, mop can cast from 24 inch distance. Mop casts 3 spells and can protect Rubrics. If something comes in you kill it with warp borne foresight with flamers or Heavy Bolter.
In your turn you advance and warp time with flamers with you can move 6+6+1-6 (depending on advance roll). And you can roast enemies near your cultists as you don't hit your own with content over caution with flamers.
Obliterators 3
More Accursed Cultists, Chaos spawn, and nurgle Terminator stop the enemy in their march while you clear the field.
Edit:
Take a Rhino with Legionaires and drive it infront the Rubrics to protect from mortal wounds.
Best don't let the rhino get charged or let it get charged but without your rubrics in consolidation range.
Thank you for the detailed response!
MoP with the book is what I've been putting in my lists, I just removed it to see if there were other suggestions. I think that's the one, though. I'm not yet convinced on the Mark, though, either Tzeentch or Nurgle for sure, I'm thinking.
MoT makes sense in your suggestion given the addition of Rubricae and Tzeentch Havocs, but I was considering MoN for the Nurgle spell buff on the Terminators (who I plan to mark nurgle). Currently I have him unmarked to save points because it seems the Mark is largely only useful if he's using god-exclusive relics or has a target for the god-specific spell.
I can't see myself taking havocs, honestly, because I love obliterators too much and because Creations of Bile doesn't seem to synergize well with a heavy weapons unit that doesn't want to dabble in melee. They do have the benefit of providing the option to take more cultists, though, and I can see the benefit of access to mark-exclusive stratagems.
As for the Rubricae, you might've been the one talking about them in the previous pages. Someone went so far as to say everyone should have them in their lists and, tbh, I wasn't convinced. But now after having looked at them, it definitely feels like an idea. I don't actually own any, so I'm a little cautious because of how this combination may be treated with the FAQ. My main reason for wanting to avoid them is because I'm trying not to lean too heavily into any one of the marks/gods and am hoping to focus in on the daemonkin stuff. But, man, I do love flamers and have never had the opportunity to use a big flaming unit (I always wanted something like Burna Boyz in my World Eaters army).
I'm definitely going to keep them in consideration, especially if I can come up with a cool proxy alternative (in Dawn of War, possessed could be upgraded to breath fire, so maybe something like Tzeentch possessed flamer thing). In 1k+ I intended to have a Tzeentch Sorcerer casting Warptime on the nurgle terminators (buffed by the nurgle MoP), and then to secondarily be useful for psychic actions. Taking the Rubricae would disrupt a lot of that, so I'll have to play around with what my list would look like otherwise. It would offer the ability to take a different 3rd HQ, though.
The Rubricae definitely seem nice, it's just that I can't afford to have my spellcasters all buffing the same unit if I'm already allocating those spells to different units. Like, the MoP is already buffing the possessed and terminators. I either need to make selections that are functional without direct support like that, or I need to change who is going to be protected. But also with CoB, those Rubricae would be warptime advancing at 7+7+d6, and they'd have S5 (melee) for all the good that'd do lol
What s CoB?
Rubrics with their sorcerer can buff themselves or spawns. They are a very nice body block as your enemy should remove them in shooting, because otherwise you get 1 CP full flamer dmg overwatch.
They can also warptime spawns that advanced to body block or threaten outer positions of the backfield in the following turn.
Terminators are protected brought with rune of damnation.
Possessed can hide behind buildings and then jump out, advance and then charge thanks to bile legion auto stimulants stratagem.
For your patrol I would go for
Venom crawler 105 points
Keeps up with your demon prince and protects it. Them gets sacrificed as a living bomb. 5+ explosion in enemy backfield.
Cultists 50 points - actions on backfield objectivs
And a unit of 2 spawns 50 points.
Body blocking threatingly, tangling Units.
Which secondaries do you wanna play?
Bile secondary, banner and engage? Their vehicle keyword of venom crawler is nice, cuz of new engage on all fronts rules.
CoB is Creations of Bile, which I'm pretty sold on. I just noticed that the Cult marines don't get legion traits, so never mind.
They really do sound fun, and even though they're not a melee unit they fight relatively close. I feel like warptiming them forward in a 2k game would be a short way to get them killed, but I could use them to warptime the terminators turn 1 and then they could get to where they need to be turn 2 with or without warptime. I don't even know what I'd be using a sorcerer for at that point except psychic actions.
Venomcrawler seems nice too. I definitely want more spawn but I'll have to decide what I'm going to do about fast attack first since I don't own one. Both Rubricae and a venomcrawler would need to be purchased.
I do have Cultists I just really don't want to use them.
I was thinking Bile secondary and engage for sure, and I'm unsure about the 3rd. I looked at the banner but I can't figure out what it would look like using that secondary in practice to get enough VP for it to be worth it. I was thinking For the Dark Gods, since it seems easy enough to get the 2 on my side of the board early on. And it synergizes with engage since I'm going to want to be getting on a third if not fourth quarter. I guess the 3rd in 2k would be one of the psychic actions since that's what the sorcerer is for.
10 man terminator with mark of damnation, mark of slannesh and psychic support = fair. It held the center of the board and most opponents have tried once and then avoided. I run them with 2 meltas and three fists (one on champ). I can't really fault them. They go to the objective and kill pretty much anything that comes near or that they crash against.
Possessed are OH-kay but really struggle against AOC or -1 damage units. They're chaff clearers or poor mid-range hero assassins.
Lord Discordant is everything everyone has said i.e Despicable.
I actually found some decent mileage in a Khorneate daemon prince with indomitable and the khorne daemon weapon. Running around with damage 3+D3, wings and halving damage really makes him a vehicle/elite infantry/character murder machine and with a Disco Lord or Abaddon on the board, he often gets ignored as a lesser threat.
Obliterators are just not THAT great any longer. Too short a range, not reliable enough with the number of shots and not being core/markable. Give them a range extension maybe? Or make them core?
Legionnaires are fine, I can actually feel a difference between them and cultists now.
Master of Possessions powers are incredible but they have to go off otherwise his use is somewhat moot...
Dark Apostle is too expensive for one prayer.
Venomcrawlers are annoying as you want them back to support psykers but they don't half move quickly. They're a bit like Magnus in that their profiles etc are meant to be up close but they offer back field support for that annoying mixed/matched roll.
I do enjoy the exploding 6's but something to extend the heavy weapons exploding would be useful as guns on the oblits or havocs etc are not always even in range to utilise it turn 1.
So after a few more games here are some more thoughts.....
As to legionaries I think the best way to run them is 5 man with either the tome, or MoK with the champ with a good weapon. Personally, I would take chain swords on my tome unit as they are much more useful then a few bolter shots. As for MoS over MoK, I have been playing Word Bearers, so with the re-roll it kind of moots the +1 and I would rather have the +1S and -1ap. Also don't sleep on the chainsword attacks from the MoK legionaries as my squad of five took down a Custodies bike caption in one round. I think for a basic troop choice these guys are pretty great. I plan on running 5 with MoK, 5 with the tome, and one squad of Cultists to hold the back line and screen for the foreseeable future.
I disagree with the above post on Possessed. In my experience they are absolute blenders. I run 9 with the rune, so they are really hard to kill with the natural T5. Also since I play Word Bearers I bring the WL trait that gives a daemonkin unit +1S and -1ap which helps mitigate the AoC issue. Also I use the spell from the Master of Possession for +1 to wound on their target unit, which generally means wounding on 2's, and again Word Bearers have a strat to re-roll the wounds if I like. Yes -1 damage can be rough on them, but realistically, -1 damage is going to hurt most of our units anyway, and for chosen or terminators (whose d1) the possessed still have more attacks at the same ap with the WL trait. Maybe because I use Word Bearers that I have this impression, but I think of the three elite melee squads (chose, terminators, possessed) they are the best.
Also don't sleep on warptalons. They are really good a putting down enemy units with only 5 man squad. They have been my MVPs in the last two games scoring many VPs with actions, swooping onto objectives, and then being able to murder all but the best enemy units. For only 140 points they are a great utility.
Agreed with oblitorators, they are not great, I only ever use the middle profile and I only bring them really because I like the models. Competitively I think they can be dropped.
The venom crawlers are a great screen for the lord discordant or daemon prince as they move just as fast and are cheap that you don't care if they die. Plus the can be pretty dangerous to characters or small units. I don't even remember the +1 to cast as I never really use them in that role.
I still love my landraider, the T9 made a difference 4 times in my last game. So many armies rely on S8 or S9 for AT, that the T9 is just an issue for them. I think if you are going heavy support I would take the landraider over the obliterators in a competitive list.
The rest is all the same, lord discordant is great, master of possession is must take, terminators are terminators.
Plus Possessed don't need to worry about AoC or -1D when they're all striking with 5 attacks. A squad of minimum Possessed can reliably kill half or so a squad of 5 Plague Marines after all. That's theoretically their worst target too in terms of infantry.
Semper wrote: Perhaps I just got unlucky with them then!
Doesn't have to be terribly unlucky, just make sure you're using the Psyker support and you'll be fine. They don't require a lot of babysitting so that's nice.
Semper wrote: Personal observations playing with BL:
10 man terminator with mark of damnation, mark of slannesh and psychic support = fair. It held the center of the board and most opponents have tried once and then avoided. I run them with 2 meltas and three fists (one on champ). I can't really fault them. They go to the objective and kill pretty much anything that comes near or that they crash against.
Possessed are OH-kay but really struggle against AOC or -1 damage units. They're chaff clearers or poor mid-range hero assassins.
Lord Discordant is everything everyone has said i.e Despicable.
I actually found some decent mileage in a Khorneate daemon prince with indomitable and the khorne daemon weapon. Running around with damage 3+D3, wings and halving damage really makes him a vehicle/elite infantry/character murder machine and with a Disco Lord or Abaddon on the board, he often gets ignored as a lesser threat.
Obliterators are just not THAT great any longer. Too short a range, not reliable enough with the number of shots and not being core/markable. Give them a range extension maybe? Or make them core?
Legionnaires are fine, I can actually feel a difference between them and cultists now.
Master of Possessions powers are incredible but they have to go off otherwise his use is somewhat moot...
Dark Apostle is too expensive for one prayer.
Venomcrawlers are annoying as you want them back to support psykers but they don't half move quickly. They're a bit like Magnus in that their profiles etc are meant to be up close but they offer back field support for that annoying mixed/matched roll.
I do enjoy the exploding 6's but something to extend the heavy weapons exploding would be useful as guns on the oblits or havocs etc are not always even in range to utilise it turn 1.
Yeah, I concur with all the observations you said. Same on my end as well.
About possessed, I don't know if its because I have run mine as a 5 man unit, but they haven't done much for me in the games I have played. Maybe people are too scared of them. But they always attract all the attention and then they die. lol Perhaps I need to try them out as a ten man squad. The issue though, is I don't have 10 possessed models. So yeah, just like you, I haven't found possessed super good or anything.
About Venomcrawlers, I find that having one in the backfield makes for not just a good buffer for psykers with its +1 to cast aura, it also makes a good countercharge unit. So, instead of throwing it out on turn 1 up the board to die, I find greater success keeping it safely in the back, either out of range of scary guns or behind obscuring. Its shooting is average only anyway (6 shots of AP2), so I don't sweat it even if it doesn't get to shoot anything on turn 1 or 2. Its a great counter charge unit when people try and threaten my backfield, or just to shore up one flank if it is coming under heavy pressure.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Plus Possessed don't need to worry about AoC or -1D when they're all striking with 5 attacks. A squad of minimum Possessed can reliably kill half or so a squad of 5 Plague Marines after all. That's theoretically their worst target too in terms of infantry.
Literally had that match up three times and they bounced off the PM every time. Neither unit had any psychic support as my MOP was too busy supporting other units (Oblits and termies) and his sorcerer was supporting Mortarion. I've found they are solid against basic marines, chaff, light vehicles etc but for me they have just struggled against those tougher or elite units. They do have their uses it's just they have not been very effective for me (most of my games have been against DG so far though...)
On other notes...
I need to try the baleflame tome. I like the idea of having the back field legionnaire squad having one to pass out supporting spells or having a smite in their pocket.
I'll give the VC a go as a screen and back field protector, though in terms of the former my LD has had no general problems. The only time he has died is if I got very unluck with a charge roll or I purposefully put him in harms way in friendly games for a bit of fun.
About this Stratagem:
---
RELENTLESS DEVASTATION Use this Stratagem in your Movement phase, when a TRAITORIS ASTARTES INFANTRY unit (excluding CULTISTS units) from your army makes a Normal Move or Advances. Until the end of your Shooting phase, provided that unit does not move again, it is considered to have Remained Stationary.
---
If a unit advances and is affected by this, can they it an Action?
RULES THAT COUNT AS REMAINING STATIONARY
Some rules allow a unit to count as having Remained Stationary, or count as if it had not moved, even if that unit has moved during its Movement phase. The following rules apply to these type of rules:
.
.
.
.
9. Even if a unit is subject to such a rule, it cannot start an action if it has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn, and any action that it is currently performing but has yet to complete will still fail if that unit makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back, performs a Heroic Intervention or declares a charge.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Plus Possessed don't need to worry about AoC or -1D when they're all striking with 5 attacks. A squad of minimum Possessed can reliably kill half or so a squad of 5 Plague Marines after all. That's theoretically their worst target too in terms of infantry.
Literally had that match up three times and they bounced off the PM every time. Neither unit had any psychic support as my MOP was too busy supporting other units (Oblits and termies) and his sorcerer was supporting Mortarion. I've found they are solid against basic marines, chaff, light vehicles etc but for me they have just struggled against those tougher or elite units. They do have their uses it's just they have not been very effective for me (most of my games have been against DG so far though...)
On other notes...
I need to try the baleflame tome. I like the idea of having the back field legionnaire squad having one to pass out supporting spells or having a smite in their pocket.
I'll give the VC a go as a screen and back field protector, though in terms of the former my LD has had no general problems. The only time he has died is if I got very unluck with a charge roll or I purposefully put him in harms way in friendly games for a bit of fun.
Well Plague Marines are probably the worst target for Possessed and if you didn't buff them and only had 5 I am not surprised that they bounced. I use mine as my main anchor unit, 9 with the rune. I have not fought DG with them, but so far they put the hurt on Custodies, marines, orks, and GK. Every time they fought they whooped the other unit. However, if you are playing a lot of DG then they may not be the best, especially if you are not buffing them.
5 Legionaries with the tome is great. Probably a must take troop choice.
On another note, I was thinking of dropping two obliterators which would be exactly 180 points to allow me to bring a DP in my final HQ slot. I was thinking a Slannessh DP with the daemon weapon so he is an absolute blender. So my main strike force would be the two venom crawlers screening (maybe with the possessed depending on opponent) with the Lord Discordant with the undivided Daemon Weapon, and the Slannessh DP with his daemon weapon, and by turn 2 both are in the enemy lines. I don't think there is any rule prevent me from taking two daemon weapons as long as they are different (correct me if I am wrong). Thoughts?
I think dropping going mostly full melee is an option. Our ranged anti-tank isn't fantastic, and melee is obviously our strength in this codex. However, it restricts our playstyle somewhat. Having non-optimal options for ranged is different from going full melee and having none at all.
I would like to bring up one more point. In this new Nephilim meta, it seems easier to score a strong primary score. Even the player who is more conservative and holds 2 objectives can still get a high primary if he scores well in bonus primary points, or just go for the 12 points score on turns 4/5. So its often the secondaries that determine the win/loss.
We really need to plan to do well in secondaries. Also, given our secondaries are not as high scoring or easily scored as other factions, we need to plan our lists and strategy to be able to actively to disrupt other people from scoring their secondaries. Because all things equal, if both sides play conservative, then we will usually lose out because our secondaries are worse.
This means that it isn't enough that our lists hold the center objective. Ideally, we can deliver a strong blow at our opponent on their objectives.
World bearers might be able to play a more passive game, if they take the world bearers secondary and warp ritual and just hold the center. But all the other legions can't really use this strategy.
Also, a more passive game tends to be detrimental to us because our melee is our strong point. So, we want to be the one charging rather than sitting on a point and waiting to get charged. In melee, usually the one getting charged is at a disadvantage unless you are creations of bile or have a fights last like Emperor's children.
One problem I see with this. Especially if we skew more towards melee than ranged, is that during deployment, it may be quite easy to see where we intend to apply a lot of pressure. Its just not so easy for melee centric armies to deploy heavily on one flank, and then suddenly switch to the other if our opponent deploys himself accordingly in reaction. This is where ranged or deep strike comes in. Because even if our opponent counter deploys away from our more heavily weighted flank, we can still deep strike in units in the other flank. Although, deep strike can also be screened against. So, its not a full proof solution. But at least you are more or less guaranteed to deep strike in units where you want to apply pressure on.
The other way is to use units that are very mobile and fast. Or use stuff like warptime, veilbreaker plate, alpha legion warlord trait redeploy.
I keep hearing mention of new Nephilim rules and finally went on wahapedia to see exactly what's being talked about. I did not realize you now have to pay CP for warlord traits and relics, and that we have half as much CP to use now. It sounds like everyone is still taking warlord traits and relics, though. Am I missing something?
Looking at starting CSM after a long time away form the game.
What is everyone's experience/recommendations with/for vehicles?
I am tempted to go pure infantry and have no vehicles at all, have a 1500 list with about 117ish wounds on the table between infantry, oblits and hqs. but would I be missing out on strong units if I did this?
The land raider appeals and it is also tempting to run 2 of them along side terminators to try and create a assault list but having read a lot of negativity about vehicles in this addition, especially marine vehicles in general, it seemed it might be a good idea to just leave them behind.
Also, how essential is it to have a blender hq unit? A lot of lists I think about start with Abaddon as he is so good now and if not then some kind of tooled up lord or DP. But along side the needed MoP and Sorcerer I like to include it gets expensive. Would it be possible to take support characters and then use a kamikaze master of executions to try and deal with other blender hero's?
Iggy88 wrote: I keep hearing mention of new Nephilim rules and finally went on wahapedia to see exactly what's being talked about. I did not realize you now have to pay CP for warlord traits and relics, and that we have half as much CP to use now. It sounds like everyone is still taking warlord traits and relics, though. Am I missing something?
It seems so bizarre to make the initial trait and relic cost something now. Especially CP when CP was already knocked down in the various updates. So now it's like CP hardly exist as you'll have even less to NO CP at the start of a game.
Even at the cost of CP it seems traits and relics are simply too valuable to NOT have. The point of even having a Warlord is to get a trait to suit your list. Not having one is just a blatant nerf not worth skipping.
Iggy88 wrote: I keep hearing mention of new Nephilim rules and finally went on wahapedia to see exactly what's being talked about. I did not realize you now have to pay CP for warlord traits and relics, and that we have half as much CP to use now. It sounds like everyone is still taking warlord traits and relics, though. Am I missing something?
Nephilim isn't being highly praised, so honestly I'd not worry too much about the restrictions being enacted much longer even in the competitive scene
I’ve honestly never really liked the CP/stratagem addition to the game, but I’ve loved the warlord traits and relics as freebies that can be taken more times for CP. It forced everyone to take at least something, so everyone’s lists had cool special rules to help tailor their build.
I’ve been making my 1k list thinking I had 6 CP and a free warlord trait and relic. So, if I use Nephilim rules and want to put the black rune on my possessed, I’m starting with 0 CP. I did notice all of the missions gave you 1CP at the start of each player turn and I actually do like that. Getting CP each turn prevents people from dumping a bunch on a turn to push really hard, but does offer the possibility to save it for a few turns into the game. I don’t think I’d mind the half CP and getting CP each turn if I didn’t have to spend 2 CP on the warlord trait and relic.
This makes what I read in earlier pages make more sense when people were saying now to use a stratagem it really needs to be impactful, like destroying a unit or receiving VP.
Looking at starting CSM after a long time away form the game.
What is everyone's experience/recommendations with/for vehicles?
I am tempted to go pure infantry and have no vehicles at all, have a 1500 list with about 117ish wounds on the table between infantry, oblits and hqs. but would I be missing out on strong units if I did this?
The land raider appeals and it is also tempting to run 2 of them along side terminators to try and create a assault list but having read a lot of negativity about vehicles in this addition, especially marine vehicles in general, it seemed it might be a good idea to just leave them behind.
Also, how essential is it to have a blender hq unit? A lot of lists I think about start with Abaddon as he is so good now and if not then some kind of tooled up lord or DP. But along side the needed MoP and Sorcerer I like to include it gets expensive. Would it be possible to take support characters and then use a kamikaze master of executions to try and deal with other blender hero's?
Appreciate the advice/experiences.
Its fine to go with no vehicles. You might give up more "no prisoners" VP, but in the end, they probably need to wipe out your whole army to max that. And CSM are pretty tough now. A MOE is super cheap at 65 points, and it doesn't take up a HQ slot, so if you want to get a MOE, just go for it. 1500 points doesn't leave you so much to play with. Abaddon alone will take up 20% of that budget if you run him. So its perfectly fine if you want to use someone else instead of Abaddon in a 1500 points game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iggy88 wrote: I’ve honestly never really liked the CP/stratagem addition to the game, but I’ve loved the warlord traits and relics as freebies that can be taken more times for CP. It forced everyone to take at least something, so everyone’s lists had cool special rules to help tailor their build.
I’ve been making my 1k list thinking I had 6 CP and a free warlord trait and relic. So, if I use Nephilim rules and want to put the black rune on my possessed, I’m starting with 0 CP. I did notice all of the missions gave you 1CP at the start of each player turn and I actually do like that. Getting CP each turn prevents people from dumping a bunch on a turn to push really hard, but does offer the possibility to save it for a few turns into the game. I don’t think I’d mind the half CP and getting CP each turn if I didn’t have to spend 2 CP on the warlord trait and relic.
This makes what I read in earlier pages make more sense when people were saying now to use a stratagem it really needs to be impactful, like destroying a unit or receiving VP.
Yes. However, actually you still get a fair amount of CP over the whole game because now you get 1 CP at the start of your opponent's turn, and then 1 CP at the start of your turn. So, some people use 5 CP on relics and warlord traits and run with 1CP. Even if their opponent starts first, at the start of their opponent's turn they gain a CP to go up to 2CP. That's enough for an interrupt or two defensive strategems.
Also, Turn 1 usually doesn't involve much use of CP since both sides are moving for position. So, its possible you don't use any CP on turn 1 at all, in which case you will have 4CP at start of turn 2 (if you started with 1CP).
Its fine to go with no vehicles. You might give up more "no prisoners" VP, but in the end, they probably need to wipe out your whole army to max that. And CSM are pretty tough now. A MOE is super cheap at 65 points, and it doesn't take up a HQ slot, so if you want to get a MOE, just go for it. 1500 points doesn't leave you so much to play with. Abaddon alone will take up 20% of that budget if you run him. So its perfectly fine if you want to use someone else instead of Abaddon in a 1500 points game.
Thank youf or the reply. Yes I should have clarified that I was looking at Abaddon for 2k games as obviously for 1500 that is a bit steep. But it was more over whether it was necessary to have a big bad killing machine rather than support and more streamlined characters like the MoE.
Good to know about not taking vehicles, the real dream is finding a way for legionaries to contribute significantly and not just be a tax or always run in the same set up.
Its fine to go with no vehicles. You might give up more "no prisoners" VP, but in the end, they probably need to wipe out your whole army to max that. And CSM are pretty tough now. A MOE is super cheap at 65 points, and it doesn't take up a HQ slot, so if you want to get a MOE, just go for it. 1500 points doesn't leave you so much to play with. Abaddon alone will take up 20% of that budget if you run him. So its perfectly fine if you want to use someone else instead of Abaddon in a 1500 points game.
Thank youf or the reply. Yes I should have clarified that I was looking at Abaddon for 2k games as obviously for 1500 that is a bit steep. But it was more over whether it was necessary to have a big bad killing machine rather than support and more streamlined characters like the MoE.
Good to know about not taking vehicles, the real dream is finding a way for legionaries to contribute significantly and not just be a tax or always run in the same set up.
I feel like Legionaries aren't too hard of a tax. I've been looking into trying them in MSU with Tome, chainswords and Heavy Chainaxe + Demon Blade on the Champion for the extra psychic power + being pretty choppy. Though I'm also running EC as my legion to boot. They COULD go in a Rhino but even two squads running up the board with cover and such they can dish out quite a bit of damage with 3 attacks each, swinging first and not getting any negative to hit with the axe thanks to EC. Can bulk up with Demonic Strength when they get into striking distance and keep themselves hardy with Agonies on their way to their victims.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think dropping going mostly full melee is an option. Our ranged anti-tank isn't fantastic, and melee is obviously our strength in this codex. However, it restricts our playstyle somewhat. Having non-optimal options for ranged is different from going full melee and having none at all.
I would like to bring up one more point. In this new Nephilim meta, it seems easier to score a strong primary score. Even the player who is more conservative and holds 2 objectives can still get a high primary if he scores well in bonus primary points, or just go for the 12 points score on turns 4/5. So its often the secondaries that determine the win/loss.
We really need to plan to do well in secondaries. Also, given our secondaries are not as high scoring or easily scored as other factions, we need to plan our lists and strategy to be able to actively to disrupt other people from scoring their secondaries. Because all things equal, if both sides play conservative, then we will usually lose out because our secondaries are worse.
This means that it isn't enough that our lists hold the center objective. Ideally, we can deliver a strong blow at our opponent on their objectives.
World bearers might be able to play a more passive game, if they take the world bearers secondary and warp ritual and just hold the center. But all the other legions can't really use this strategy.
Also, a more passive game tends to be detrimental to us because our melee is our strong point. So, we want to be the one charging rather than sitting on a point and waiting to get charged. In melee, usually the one getting charged is at a disadvantage unless you are creations of bile or have a fights last like Emperor's children.
One problem I see with this. Especially if we skew more towards melee than ranged, is that during deployment, it may be quite easy to see where we intend to apply a lot of pressure. Its just not so easy for melee centric armies to deploy heavily on one flank, and then suddenly switch to the other if our opponent deploys himself accordingly in reaction. This is where ranged or deep strike comes in. Because even if our opponent counter deploys away from our more heavily weighted flank, we can still deep strike in units in the other flank. Although, deep strike can also be screened against. So, its not a full proof solution. But at least you are more or less guaranteed to deep strike in units where you want to apply pressure on.
The other way is to use units that are very mobile and fast. Or use stuff like warptime, veilbreaker plate, alpha legion warlord trait redeploy.
Words of wisdom. I really like your strategic ruminations. This is what the game revolves around and the tactical decisions on top is mostly flavor imho.
I think there is something to this and the strategic discussion you have on the balance between melee and shooting. I would actually argue that we are not as bad at shooting as advertised. E.g. Helbrutes, Obliterators and Havocs are ok. The 2 former are neat counter chargers allowing them to play 2 roles; anti tank and melee. MoS Helbrutes are toolboxes and Obliterators are also versatile. MoS Havocs are also a great dz anchor. MoS unlocks Murderous Perfection which is Lascannons best friend.
Good note on the extra Primary Bonus points. They definitely make a difference and often plays into our strength to capture objectives by melee.
The Secondary's are horrendous indeed and will most likely be rebalanced further on. That said I think we have options:
Banners - we do have cheap Troops which excel at this. Cultists and the 5 man Legionnaire unit with the Magic Book can afford to do this.
Ritual/Interrogation - Daemon Prince is a unit that want to get up midfield, has the speed for it (Wings) and still can do a Psychic Action. Especially neat with AL adding Clandestine and the free Fall back and Action./Charge.
Behind Enemy Lines - The guy in your YouTube link at first page had a plan for pushing Raptors into opponents dz and then create a bubble big enough for Deep Strike and adding Abbadon or Termies too. Would net 4 Vp/turn from that.
The Long War - Is it good or bad? It rewards you for being aggressive, which mustn´t mean melee. Shooting stuff off an Objective is actually 1 VP. The good part is it forces the opponent into awkward choices. If they stay back and go for the 8 points and deny us we can go for 3 Objectives and the 12.
Then there´s the movement game which ties into the Secondaries to make a whole strategy. What they play passive as you say and we pick Long War? Here the mixed lists starts to shine. Sure they can park upon their home objective plus one in no mans land, but now we can at least shoot stuff off their chosen objectives. This also helps with another point you made that we need tools to hinder their scoring.
Or do we go the massive mobile attack force and deep strike stuff or fly through a buffed strike unit? How do we hold our midboard if the MoP is busy enchanting Warp Talons then? It depends.
Iggy88 wrote: How do people feel about For the Dark Gods as a secondary? Is it not good because it maxes at 14 VP or is it difficult to rely on?
Its a shadow operations secondary. We have quite a few to choose from. This category generally isn't a problem. In this category, there is "For the dark gods", "Raise banners" , RND. For the dark gods is basically a harder to do, but higher scoring RND. Tactically, raise banners is better because it forces your opponent to come and fight us, which is what we want because we are usually melee centric. But there are enough choices in this category that we can just choose the one best for this situation.
The problem lies in the other categories. Warpcraft is good but requires a dedicated psyker character. Having a DP is one way to solve this, but in a way it also restricts your DP tactically as well. If you choose warp ritual, you are shackling your DP for three turns in the center of the board. If you choose mental interrogation, then you need to be more cautious with how you play your DP to keep it alive all 5 turns. I find that I almost rather have a separate dedicated psyker other than master of possession if I intend to take warpcraft.
And then none of the kill secondaries are auto take because those are dependent on what your opponent runs. And finally the category battlefield supremacy is the biggest problem. We only have two choices here, and both are not easy. This category only has "Behind enemy lines" and "engage on all fronts". Its possible to design lists and to play to achieve either one, but again, we need to be aware and to design our lists accordingly. And even then, its not easy. If we can score 10 VP in this category, its very good already.
And like others have said, long war is very often a trap. If we design our list to have very tough units that take an objective and hold it. Then we don't really "trade" objectives and end up scoring a very low score in long war. A smart opponent can literally play in a certain way to deny us long war. Like, say he knows we took this. So, he overweights heavily on our lighter flank and his back line. He focus on taking, securing and holding his backfield objective and that one flank. He gives us three or even four primary objectives each turn. The primary score is actually quite close because he can still score 8VP each turn plus bonus mission primary. Meanwhile, we can capped out at 45 VP for primary. In the meantime, we score zero to maybe 1VP each turn for long war. Just the difference in this one secondary assuming our opponent managed to score something like 12 to 15 to our 3 for this could easily mean the game already.
Our secondaries are already not as good as other factions, so we absolutely need to make sure we don't score poorly in any single one of them. "The Long War" is a relic of a bygone age that was the Nachmund chapter approved time and before when trading objectives was a frequent thing and stranglehold was often "the go to" as one of the secondaries. This is no longer true in both cases. We are no longer a good trading army because our units are elite and not cheap. Our codex has changed from cheap, hard hitting units to expensive and tough units. Plus stranglehold doesn't even exist anymore.
Thank you Eldenfirefly. I appreciate everyone's answers to my questions.
It seems many of the secondary objectives are easier to do with 2000 points than 1000 points, but I'm trying to figure out what ones I'd likely want to take in either.
I think the CoB secondary is going to be an auto-include for me. I can get 3 VP for killing a monster/character in melee and 2 for any regular unit, but only once per battle round. Still, it seems like I can probably get 8-12 VP for that throughout the game.
I guess I've been underestimating Raise the Banners. It seemed like I'd need 3 objectives pretty early on and held for the entire time in order to get the most out of this secondary, but I can definitely see how it would add pressure to the enemy, who we want to get close to.
Warp Ritual or Psychic Interrogation doesn't seem like a bad pick for me for 2k since I have a sorcerer but I'm not entirely sure what to do with it. In 1k I can't afford to include a sorcerer and I wouldn't want my DP or MoP to be spending 3+ turns doing little to nothing.
I really like the Battlefield Supremacy ones and have no problem designing a list around them. I'd like to fight for the board anyway. It seemed that Engage on all fronts would work well with For the dark gods since both required a presence in each table quarter. I think Behind enemy lines would be harder because I think an enemy could choose to counter that secondary by screening their deployment zone. But I think it would be difficult for an enemy to keep me out of all 4 quarters (specifically both of the ones on their side).
I think today I will try Specimens for the Spider, Engage on All Fronts, and Raise the Banner for my 1k game against my friends' Dark Eldar or Space Wolves.
I have my first game today in this edition (my game earlier this week was cancelled).
Listening to the advice I've gotten on here, this is what I'm taking:
Tzeentch DP w/ wings, prime test subject warlord, the boundless, sword, death hex
MoP - Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
10 Cultists
5 Legionaries w/ chainswords, tome - prescience
6 Possessed (had 30 points left so added 1) w/ black rune
3 Bikers w/ chainswords
1 Spawn
3 Oblits
The other than one thing there seems to be a lot of diversity in the chaos lists in terms of units and legions used. Now most seem to have terminators and possessed and a lord discordant, but not all and I think most legions were represented. The only thing that is a common denominator seems to be Abbadon, even if armies that are not black legion. I think every list I saw had him in it. So if you are building competitive this may help as a guide. I wish the lists discussed the secondaries used.
On a side note, I don't think I have seen this level of diversity in armies winning in the 30 years I have been playing this game. As much as people complaint about Nephlim rules, I think the 6CP has really reigned in some of the worst offending armies with broken stratagems.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Plus Possessed don't need to worry about AoC or -1D when they're all striking with 5 attacks. A squad of minimum Possessed can reliably kill half or so a squad of 5 Plague Marines after all. That's theoretically their worst target too in terms of infantry.
Literally had that match up three times and they bounced off the PM every time. Neither unit had any psychic support as my MOP was too busy supporting other units (Oblits and termies) and his sorcerer was supporting Mortarion. I've found they are solid against basic marines, chaff, light vehicles etc but for me they have just struggled against those tougher or elite units. They do have their uses it's just they have not been very effective for me (most of my games have been against DG so far though...)
On other notes...
I need to try the baleflame tome. I like the idea of having the back field legionnaire squad having one to pass out supporting spells or having a smite in their pocket.
I'll give the VC a go as a screen and back field protector, though in terms of the former my LD has had no general problems. The only time he has died is if I got very unluck with a charge roll or I purposefully put him in harms way in friendly games for a bit of fun.
Well Plague Marines are probably the worst target for Possessed and if you didn't buff them and only had 5 I am not surprised that they bounced. I use mine as my main anchor unit, 9 with the rune. I have not fought DG with them, but so far they put the hurt on Custodies, marines, orks, and GK. Every time they fought they whooped the other unit. However, if you are playing a lot of DG then they may not be the best, especially if you are not buffing them.
5 Legionaries with the tome is great. Probably a must take troop choice.
It's a TAC list so I wasn't going to tailor it. I did win most games I just noticed the possessed had let me down a little, that's not to say they're a bad unit either.
I'm leaning towards the Semper side of the Possessed "debate", they haven't impressed me.
I'd also say I'm surprised that I've played so much DG/TS since the codex came out. I was expecting CSM to be more power creeped. I think maybe they are better datasheets generally but are held back by weak secondaries.
EightFoldPath wrote: I'd also say I'm surprised that I've played so much DG/TS since the codex came out. I was expecting CSM to be more power creeped. I think maybe they are better datasheets generally but are held back by weak secondaries.
DG/TS got a serious shot in the arm from the AoC changes. Additionally, I know at least for my TS list, the points drops were pretty significant, most of my lists added a bonus Sorc or better. I don't play DG, but they seem to be doing a lot better for similar reasons.
I’d really like to have a unit with each of the chaos god marks. I remarked my DP as Tzeentch and then in my game I realized I didn’t have access to the Khorne deny stratagem. I already intend to take Nurgle terminators and I think I do prefer the DP as Tzeentch, but I’m looking for something to mark slaanesh and something to mark khorne.
I was thinking the idea of a legionaries unit with a power fist, chain axe, icon, and the mark of slaanesh is not a bad idea. I was thinking potentially giving the champion warps malice because it seems like a nasty pistol. And I could use the slaanesh stratagem to auto inflict 2 mortal wounds with that gun.
Then, for a khorne unit, I was thinking a biker unit with minimal upgrades. I’m not sure if adding more than 3 to the unit is a good idea, but keeping their chainswords and maybe giving the champ the tainted chain axe, since the MoK seems to buff regular chainswords pretty well.
I have a question, i love daemon engines so im doing a list with:
- 3x lord discordant
- 3x defilers (i know they suck but i love them)
- 3x venomcrawlers
- troops and other less awesome things
My question is, what legion fits better to a heavy-engines list?
i'm thinking Creations of Bile or maybe Red Corsairs for that sweet advance and charge
What do you think?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iggy88 wrote: I’d really like to have a unit with each of the chaos god marks. I remarked my DP as Tzeentch and then in my game I realized I didn’t have access to the Khorne deny stratagem. I already intend to take Nurgle terminators and I think I do prefer the DP as Tzeentch, but I’m looking for something to mark slaanesh and something to mark khorne.
I was thinking the idea of a legionaries unit with a power fist, chain axe, icon, and the mark of slaanesh is not a bad idea. I was thinking potentially giving the champion warps malice because it seems like a nasty pistol. And I could use the slaanesh stratagem to auto inflict 2 mortal wounds with that gun.
Then, for a khorne unit, I was thinking a biker unit with minimal upgrades. I’m not sure if adding more than 3 to the unit is a good idea, but keeping their chainswords and maybe giving the champ the tainted chain axe, since the MoK seems to buff regular chainswords pretty well.
yesterday i played with a creations of bile list with some khorne chosen. they where very good so maybe that ? also some khorne raptors
MoS terminators with the black rune of damnation + MoS Master of possession for delightful agonies/pact of flesh combo
i also run a lord discordant with gorget and twisted regeneration (and mark of Tzeentch for some extra durability)
the mark of papa nurgle could go well with some bikes
EviscerationPlague wrote: FAQ is finally out and wasn't even worth the effort for how bad it is. On the plus side, the Chosen Champ can get a Power Fist now.
Vatsetis wrote: Termis with adecuate support are indestructible a 10 man blob seems like a very solid backbone for the Army.
Are they, though?
You can make them virtually unkillable, but do they cover enough ground and do enough damage to justify it?
I've been running a 10-Man blob of Black Rune Possessed. They're not as durable (in some situations), but they're still quite hard to kill, fast, killy, and importantly, don't really need support to shine.
Vatsetis wrote: Termis with adecuate support are indestructible a 10 man blob seems like a very solid backbone for the Army.
Are they, though?
You can make them virtually unkillable, but do they cover enough ground and do enough damage to justify it?
I've been running a 10-Man blob of Black Rune Possessed. They're not as durable (in some situations), but they're still quite hard to kill, fast, killy, and importantly, don't really need support to shine.
Possessed are T5 (-1 to be wounded) 3+/5++ (Armor of Contempt)
Terminators are T4 (-1 to be wounded) 2+/5++ (Armor of Contempt)
Bolter at BS3+, S4, AP0 or AP-1, D1
Possessed take 27 shots per wound.
Terminators take 27 shots to take a wound
Lasguns at BS4+, S3, AP0, D1
Possessed take 27 shots per wound
Terminators take 54 shots per wound
Heavy Bolters at BS3+, S5, AP-1, D2
Possessed take 13.5 shots per wound
Terminators take 18 shots per wound
Plasma at BS3+, S8, AP-3, D2
Possessed take 4.5 shots per wound
Terminators take 4.5 shots per wound
Melta at BS3+, S8, AP-4, D1d6 (sometimes +2)
Possessed take 4.5 shots per wound
Terminators take 3.375 shots per wound
So, against a lot of weapons, they have the same durability per model. Occasionally Terminators pull ahead, occasionally Possessed do.
But Possessed are also 5 PPM cheaper, and a damn sight killier in melee, and faster. They lack the ability to clear chaff at range, but that's really their only downside compared to Terminators.
Vatsetis wrote: Termis can also have 5 meltas... They clean more than chaff at range.
And even with bolter with BL and abby they do more than chaff cleaning. Do the math.
Are they the best min max solution in the codex, probably not... But termis, chosen and possesed are certainly all very scary now.
I'm comparing barebones.
280 points of Possessed to 330 points of Terminators.
But, maxing out on Terminators...
Champion with Chainfist and CombiBolter
Four Terminators with CombiMeltas and Accursed Weapons
Two Terminators with CombiPlasmas and Accursed Weapons
Two Terminators with Reaper Autocannons and Power Fists
One Terminator with CombiBolter and Power Fist
So that's 390 points as compared to 280. Both need a CP to get the Rune.
We can give the Terminators RR1s easily, while the Possessed (lacking Core) cannot.
But, against a Knight, assuming Terminators get RR1s to-hit...
Shooting Possessed do nothing. They shout, angrily.
Terminators have 8 Bolt shots, for .35 damage.
8 Reaper shots, for 1.38 damage, 1.04 if they moved.
4 Melta shots, for 1.04 wounds going through. That's 3.63 damage outside of Melta range, 5.70 in Melta range.
4 Plasma shots, for .69 damage (no Overcharge) or 2.07 (with Overcharge).
I'll assume they moved and are outside of Melta range, but do Overcharge. Total of 7.09 damage.
Melee Possessed have 51 attacks.
34 hits.
34/3 wounds.
68/9 failed saves.
136/9 damage, or 15.11 damage.
Terminators have 24 Accursed Weapon attacks, 4 Chainfist attacks, and 9 Powerfist attacks.
24 Accursed attacks
16 hits
16/3 wounds
80/18 or 40/9 failed saves, for 4.44 damage
9 Powerfist attacks
9/2 hits
9/4 wounds
45/24 failed saves
90/24 or 45/12 damage, or 3.75 damage
Possessed Total All melee, 15.11 damage for 18.53 Points Per Damage Dealt.
Terminator Total 7.09+4.44+3+3.75 equals 18.28 damage, for 21.33 Points Per Damage Dealt.
Terminators do less damage per point, and that's WITH a nearby HQ buffing them, which was not accounted for in points. They're also slower, so less likely to make it to melee.
I have played with both big blocks of 10 with the rune. Beyond all the math hammer (which I don't believe ever paints a full picture) what I have noticed is the big difference in the movement. 9 v 5 is a big difference and I find that opponents can't just ignore possessed for that reason. Also talking about buffs the MoP buffs better with the possessed as he can cast the +1 to wound spell on their target (both benefit from pact of flesh). Also I know it is legion determinate, but I play word bearers and they have a WL buff that you can put on daemonkin in the command phase for +1S and and additional point of ap. With the +1 to wound and extra S/ap the possessed absolutely carve though basically anything.
By the way this does not mean terminators are bad, far from it.
Xeen, i think they are close enough that play style and your game plan as well as Legion choice will determine what you prefer.
JNA, I understand the comparison you are going for, but just talking survivability the edge for Terminators is they can get more buffs than Possessed.
Possessed can get +1 invuln and +1T.
Terminators can get light cover in the open, transhit, no hit re-rolls, +1T and then your choice from +1 invuln/ignore damage from first failed save per turn, 5+++/fight first or -1 to hit/-1 to wound in certain situations (very rare situations if they have the rune).
Also even if you don't have the light cover prayer, 9th edition's moto for PA factions is "stand in light cover as if your life depends on it, because it often does".
Vatsetis wrote: Termis can also have 5 meltas... They clean more than chaff at range.
And even with bolter with BL and abby they do more than chaff cleaning. Do the math.
Are they the best min max solution in the codex, probably not... But termis, chosen and possesed are certainly all very scary now.
I'm comparing barebones.
280 points of Possessed to 330 points of Terminators.
But, maxing out on Terminators...
Champion with Chainfist and CombiBolter
Four Terminators with CombiMeltas and Accursed Weapons
Two Terminators with CombiPlasmas and Accursed Weapons
Two Terminators with Reaper Autocannons and Power Fists
One Terminator with CombiBolter and Power Fist
So that's 390 points as compared to 280. Both need a CP to get the Rune.
We can give the Terminators RR1s easily, while the Possessed (lacking Core) cannot.
But, against a Knight, assuming Terminators get RR1s to-hit...
Shooting Possessed do nothing. They shout, angrily.
Terminators have 8 Bolt shots, for .35 damage.
8 Reaper shots, for 1.38 damage, 1.04 if they moved.
4 Melta shots, for 1.04 wounds going through. That's 3.63 damage outside of Melta range, 5.70 in Melta range.
4 Plasma shots, for .69 damage (no Overcharge) or 2.07 (with Overcharge).
I'll assume they moved and are outside of Melta range, but do Overcharge. Total of 7.09 damage.
Melee Possessed have 51 attacks.
34 hits.
34/3 wounds.
68/9 failed saves.
136/9 damage, or 15.11 damage.
Terminators have 24 Accursed Weapon attacks, 4 Chainfist attacks, and 9 Powerfist attacks.
24 Accursed attacks
16 hits
16/3 wounds
80/18 or 40/9 failed saves, for 4.44 damage
9 Powerfist attacks
9/2 hits
9/4 wounds
45/24 failed saves
90/24 or 45/12 damage, or 3.75 damage
Possessed Total All melee, 15.11 damage for 18.53 Points Per Damage Dealt.
Terminator Total 7.09+4.44+3+3.75 equals 18.28 damage, for 21.33 Points Per Damage Dealt.
Terminators do less damage per point, and that's WITH a nearby HQ buffing them, which was not accounted for in points. They're also slower, so less likely to make it to melee.
Have you taking into account the to hit terroll of and wound reroll of Abby? Both in fire and melee phases... That was the base of my hyphotesis.
Terminators aren't exactly slower with the Deep Strike.
Another thing to consider for the Terminators over Possessed is that 15 points gets a Mark for the whole unit. That doesn't add a lot to the damage per point ratio either. However each Mark would be situational soooooo whatever. Khorne would help that first round though with helping wound slightly easier.
Just wanna say a Master of Execution with hatred incarnate, warps malic and the slanessh stratagem MURDEROUS PERFECTION is nice in mortal wounds and damage output.
2 mortals per 6 to hit from Warps Malice and the same for his axe with one time turning a die to a 6 for 1 CP in shooting and fight phase. Reroll that melee hits and fis for the stars (6es) with
HATRED INCARNATE
Each time this WARLORD fights, if it made a charge move or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn, until that fight is resolved, add 1 to the Strength and Attacks characteristics of this WARLORD.
Each time this WARLORD makes a melee attack, you can re-roll that attack’s hit roll.
+ his actual attacks that go through wound rerolled.
With the secondary Rise to Glory a good 3 or 4 character for 80 points and 2 CP initial investment.
Just Herohammer those corpse-worshippers out of existence!
JNAProductions wrote: I don’t think making a basket and putting 700+ points in it is a good idea when that blob moves at 5”.
QFT. CSM aren´t numerous enough, Cultists aside, that this is a good strategy. Adding to this is the atrocious secondaries.
CSM really need to build on a good scoring plan. Assuming that a slow as molasses 700 point blob will rake in kill points or similar is a forlorn hope.
Start at the other end and figure out how to score and then fit the Termies into the strategy. They are great objective huggers and area denial.
Iggy88 wrote: When you give the Discolord the undivided demon weapon, which weapon do you replace with the demon weapon? The limbs for the extra attacks?
You cannot make the Limbs a relic.
And the most attacks at the best wound rolls would be the main Chainglaive, so do that.
During deployment, you can set up this unit in blasphemous reserves instead of setting it up on the battlefield. If you do so, then in the Reinforcements step of one of your Movement phases you can set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.
Core rules to reserve state:
Note that these rules do not apply to units that are using other rules that enable them to start the battle in a location other than the battlefield. Such units are not placed in Strategic Reserves and they are instead set up as described by their own rules.
So Termiantors etc. can be deployed in the first battle round...?
Or am I completel misreading this? (i think so ^^)
Iggy88 wrote: When you give the Discolord the undivided demon weapon, which weapon do you replace with the demon weapon? The limbs for the extra attacks?
You cannot make the Limbs a relic.
And the most attacks at the best wound rolls would be the main Chainglaive, so do that.
What prevents the limbs from being chosen? The demon weapon says to pick a weapon, and the lord’s data sheet says it is equipped with them all. I’m sure you’re right, I’m just unsure how.
Note that some Relics replace one of the models existing items of wargear. Where this is the case, you must, if you are using points values, still pay the cost of the wargear that is being replaced. Also note that a Lord Discordant on Helstalker models bladed limbs weapon can never be replaced with a Relic. Write down any Relics your models have on your army roster.
During deployment, you can set up this unit in blasphemous reserves instead of setting it up on the battlefield. If you do so, then in the Reinforcements step of one of your Movement phases you can set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.
Core rules to reserve state:
Note that these rules do not apply to units that are using other rules that enable them to start the battle in a location other than the battlefield. Such units are not placed in Strategic Reserves and they are instead set up as described by their own rules.
So Termiantors etc. can be deployed in the first battle round...?
Or am I completel misreading this? (i think so ^^)
Mission rules restrict you from arriving in the first battle round.
In War Zone Nephilim: Grand Tournament missions, Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units can never arrive on the battlefield in the first battle round.
Oh, I just realised you mentioned world eaters.... so scratch the MOP.
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
