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Just an update of more testing with black legion (because that's my favourite legion). In particular the strategem confluence of traitors. This is a huge strategem for black legion.

However, because confluence of traitors strategem is once a game (so we need to make it count), so I tend to use it for just one thing only, which is to get the red corsairs trait of advance and charge. Nothing else quite has the same kind of impact.

1. It gets either Abaddon or the big terminator/chosen/ whatever 10 man squad brick into combat. And to be able to suddenly speed up a slow moving infantry squad such that it can now charge something reliably whereas before that, it was a long bomb charge is massive. And it gets them up the board.

2. The other legion traits are more defensive in nature, but opponents can play around defensive traits. Short of presenting nothing but that one big target to his entire army, otherwise, he can just select to shoot or fight something else. There is the Alpha legion fall back and charge. But Black Legion has a 2CP strategem that allows for fall back and shoot plus charge. So, again, we don't need to use confluence of traitors for that. There is the creation of bile trait which is great too. But again, fight on death is something that can be played around. Your opponent already knows you have this one unit that can fight on death, then he just needs to take that into account during his fight phase. In practise, it is extremely difficult to make good use of this trait on just one unit. It works in a full creations of bile list because every unit has fight on death. It is much less effective when only one unit has it plus you need to foresee it will be engaged in melee and that it will die because you have to use the strategem in your command phase.

3. Also, even its just once a game, advance and charge essentially opens up list building for black legion. You can drop the Slanaash Dark Apostle. It was very clunky to use. You wanted him for illusionary suppliocation, and you also wanted him to give slanaash units advance and charge. But you can only do one thing as black legion dark apostles. You can't do both. And since black legion can get advance and charge from confluence of traitros by giving a unit (including Abaddon) red corsairs trait, then this eliminates half the reason to bring a dark apostle. And bringing a slanaash dark apostle is expensive! It is 110 points for a guy who does one prayer a turn with mediocre fighting abilitie (at base equipment and stats). Also, it opens up black legion list building in other ways. You are not constrained to using ten man terminators or chosen for your center 10 man block. You can consider using a 10 man plague marine squad since you can give them advance and charge too. They don't need to be slanaash. You can also go 10 man possessed. Essentially, the composition of your center 10 man brick is not limited to something that has to take mark of slanaash and it can still benefit from getting advance and charge.

And since I was talking about defensive buffs. The MOP can be given a relevant mark which will open up defensive psychic for tzeentch as well as for nurgle if we want. Again, we are not limited to slanaash, although delightful agonies is supposedly the best defensive psychic. But nurgle putrid miasma isn't bad. -1 to hit is almost as good as having illusionary supplication, and it now opens up the ten man unit to getting grandfatherly blessing (transhuman). Tzeentch is also good defensively and you can now cast skeins of fate to give the 10 man unit a 4++ invul save.

4. The illusionary supplication also tends to be overkill on the ten man block we bring anyway. Especially if you also have the MOP casting defensive buffs on the unit (as seen above), and healing and rezzing one model every turn. Unless your opponent is a newbie and litereally wants to try to throw his entire army into that one unit as a challenge to see if he can kill it, otherwise, any other experienced player will just target something else. So, given how valuable HQ slots are, being able to skip the dark apostle and yet still have access to half of his perks is great for black legion.

5. Confluence of traitors is guaranteed to go off. Its not a prayer. Even the dark apostle can roll a 1 and fail his prayer at a key moment. Confluence can never fail. For that key moment when you want to make your play with that big brick or with Abaddon, you want a guaranteed thing rather than something that will only go off 5 out of 6 of the times, because there will be the time you roll a 1 for that prayer at that key moment.


So, yeah... I guess to sum up for my games recently with black legion. I have two main observations.

1. We don't really need a dark apostle. It opens up black legion list building to more options.

2. For confluence of traitors strategem, the most often use for it is to give advance and charge to a key unit at a key moment in the game. For me, I have used Confluence to get something else besides the red corsairs legion trait just once. Every other game I have played with black legion, I used it to get the red corsairs advance and charge trait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An additional point I want to raise on list building. We all observed that the center brick with Abaddon tends to be avoided by good players because its just too hard to fight and its slow moving anyway.

Black legion being able to give one advance and charge changes things. Plus we do have access to the psychic warptime.

We can use that one "unkillable" 10 man block to escort a hero hammer version of a list up the board where a lot of the killing power are all in characters.

So, turn 1, warptime plus advance up a 10 man block of terminators aggressively to the board center. A whole bunch of characters will follow behind them. Be it abaddon plus some master of execution plus daemon prince, or even a Lord discordant. There will be a whole bunch of characters protected by the ten man squad advancing behind this ten man brick.

Everything else hides literally. So, now our opponent has literally nothing to shoot except the 10 man brick that is unkillable.

Turn 2, we give one unit (probably abaddon) advance and charge, and everything else just goes off in whatever direction they please and charges something. Be it DP, Lord discordant, MOEs, Abaddon, even the 10 man squad too. We can supplement this with deep striking units or mobile jump pack units. Abaddon especially gives core units +1 to charge.

So, this type of list uses the concept of presenting nothing but that one unkillable target on turn 1 to get everything else into position for a devastating charge on turn 2.

With warptime and an advance. the ten man brick is going to be quite far up the middle of the board on turn 1, and all the characters will be following close behind with their own move advance. (units like LD and flying DP are naturally fast anyway). So, their turn 2 charge will have a massive threat range projected out from the middle of the board. Hmmm, a slanaash dark apostle might be ok for such a list because turn 1 illusion, turn 2 give a slanaash unit advance and charge. Since we are presenting only one target for our opponent to shoot at or charge on turn 1, might as well make it as unkillable as possible.

Its an interesting concept that I confess I haven't tried out yet. And it has two weakness. Firstly, it can be move blocked. If an opponent is able to successfully move block the big ten man brick, everything else is move blocked behind that brick. Secondly, there are other armies out there which are also melee focused. Is our army able to outfight such armies?

Just a quick list I made from this concept.

HQ: Abaddon, Flying slanaash DP, Slanaash Dark Apostle, Slanaash MOP.
Troops: 3 units of cultists
Elites: 1 10 man termie squad with 2 chainfists, 2X 5 man termie squad (champ chainfist), 2 MOE.
FA: 3 x 5 barebones raptor squads.

So, both 5 man termie units and 2 or 3 raptor squads in deepstrike and pay 1 CP for 2 cultist squads to go into strategic reserve.

Turn 1: Ten man brick gets warptime and escorts all the characters up field. Gets all the defense buffs, tanks all the shooting.
Turn 2: Two units get advance and charge, most of the deep strike come in. Raptors and cultists play the mission, the terminators drop in, shoot and charge. All the raptors and the termies can get +1 to charge from Abaddon if they are within 6 inches. MOEs, Flying DP, Abaddon all fan out and charge as well.

So how does such a list concept sound?

Thanks for the responses.

I'm unsure what I want or should do for my 1-3 troop units in a patrol or battalion. I was hoping to fill the troops with accursed cultists, though since they can't make actions I'm not sure if that would've been a smart move anyway. Since Possessed and Obliterators aren't core, I think only my 1 unit of terminators would work in my 2k list. Though I guess I could have 2 units of accursed cultists with 1 unit of legionaries and the terminators.

So, I guess, are people finding taking 5 legionaries without upgrades for 90 points the way to go for a troop selection? The Balefire tome is what I was using for Prescience to cast either on the Obliterators or the Possessed. I know it doesn't add to the exploding 6s, but it still is +1 to hit and combined with the Lord's rerolling 1s to hit it seems like it could be a decent way to get close to a 100% accuracy.

My thought was taking a 5-man unit and giving them the Tome plus a mark. Is it really better to just give them nothing?

Iggy88 wrote:
Thanks for the responses.

I'm unsure what I want or should do for my 1-3 troop units in a patrol or battalion. I was hoping to fill the troops with accursed cultists, though since they can't make actions I'm not sure if that would've been a smart move anyway. Since Possessed and Obliterators aren't core, I think only my 1 unit of terminators would work in my 2k list. Though I guess I could have 2 units of accursed cultists with 1 unit of legionaries and the terminators.

So, I guess, are people finding taking 5 legionaries without upgrades for 90 points the way to go for a troop selection? The Balefire tome is what I was using for Prescience to cast either on the Obliterators or the Possessed. I know it doesn't add to the exploding 6s, but it still is +1 to hit and combined with the Lord's rerolling 1s to hit it seems like it could be a decent way to get close to a 100% accuracy.

My thought was taking a 5-man unit and giving them the Tome plus a mark. Is it really better to just give them nothing?

A 5 man unit with a tome and a mark is fine. You get a psyker unit that can cast one of the mark psychic. I have tried such a unit in quite few games and I totally didn't regret it. Its perfectly fine really. It can be used as a sacrifice for the MOP's sacrificial dagger. It can guard your MOP much better than a squad of ten cultists. It can hold an backline objective. It can cast a mark specific psychic each turn, and if you want, you can even march it up towards the midfield to give obsec for contesting the midfield. Its very flexible. Most likely its won't be targeted much by your opponent because there are so many other better targets he can shoot his good guns at. And incidental small arms fire will definitely not kill it.

I am finding 5 man Khorne unit with icon and champ power fist and heavy chain axe is pretty good too. It costs130 points. But its obsec and it packs a punch in melee. Because of the power fist and heavy chain axe, and Khorne icon, you have 4 AP4 Str 9 attacks and 3 AP5 Str 9 attacks. You can handle anything in the game from infantry to elite infantry to vehicles. You also have the option to fight twice with 2CP to really crack up the damage if you need to. Its no more expensive than a 5 man squad of chosen at 125 points or a squad of possessed at 140 points, and both chosen and possessed have a problem fighting T6 and above, and are not obsec. You can hold such a squad as a reserve counter punch unit. Keep it hidden behind obscuring in cover until the time you want to commit it into battle. It will do work during the turn it charges into combat. Even if it dies after that, its probably accomplished its job, and at the very least, helped you take back that objective it charged into that turn. (So, good for secondary like The Long War). I have tried out a few games with this load out and they haven't let me down.

Wait Confluence is once per game?

Yeah I'd wager Red Corsairs is the best bet. Advance and Charge is just super powerful and their trait might even help with keeping an objective a bit while you try to get everything else up the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Iggy88 wrote:
Thanks for the responses.

I'm unsure what I want or should do for my 1-3 troop units in a patrol or battalion. I was hoping to fill the troops with accursed cultists, though since they can't make actions I'm not sure if that would've been a smart move anyway. Since Possessed and Obliterators aren't core, I think only my 1 unit of terminators would work in my 2k list. Though I guess I could have 2 units of accursed cultists with 1 unit of legionaries and the terminators.

So, I guess, are people finding taking 5 legionaries without upgrades for 90 points the way to go for a troop selection? The Balefire tome is what I was using for Prescience to cast either on the Obliterators or the Possessed. I know it doesn't add to the exploding 6s, but it still is +1 to hit and combined with the Lord's rerolling 1s to hit it seems like it could be a decent way to get close to a 100% accuracy.

My thought was taking a 5-man unit and giving them the Tome plus a mark. Is it really better to just give them nothing?

A 5 man unit with a tome and a mark is fine. You get a psyker unit that can cast one of the mark psychic. I have tried such a unit in quite few games and I totally didn't regret it. Its perfectly fine really. It can be used as a sacrifice for the MOP's sacrificial dagger. It can guard your MOP much better than a squad of ten cultists. It can hold an backline objective. It can cast a mark specific psychic each turn, and if you want, you can even march it up towards the midfield to give obsec for contesting the midfield. Its very flexible. Most likely its won't be targeted much by your opponent because there are so many other better targets he can shoot his good guns at. And incidental small arms fire will definitely not kill it.

I am finding 5 man Khorne unit with icon and champ power fist and heavy chain axe is pretty good too. It costs130 points. But its obsec and it packs a punch in melee. Because of the power fist and heavy chain axe, and Khorne icon, you have 4 AP4 Str 9 attacks and 3 AP5 Str 9 attacks. You can handle anything in the game from infantry to elite infantry to vehicles. You also have the option to fight twice with 2CP to really crack up the damage if you need to. Its no more expensive than a 5 man squad of chosen at 125 points or a squad of possessed at 140 points, and both chosen and possessed have a problem fighting T6 and above, and are not obsec. You can hold such a squad as a reserve counter punch unit. Keep it hidden behind obscuring in cover until the time you want to commit it into battle. It will do work during the turn it charges into combat. Even if it dies after that, its probably accomplished its job, and at the very least, helped you take back that objective it charged into that turn. (So, good for secondary like The Long War). I have tried out a few games with this load out and they haven't let me down.

While the extra AP from the Khorne icon helps the Chainswords, the real meat of the damage will be a Power Fist Champ and the Heavy Chainaxe. This is a situation where grabbing MoS with the Icon instead is a lot better.

That's actually very good information and gives me a lot to consider. I like the idea of using Icon of Slaanesh to negate the modifier for the fist and axe, especially with CoB since I already have the +1S.

Does the Icon go on the unit as a whole or a specific model? The rule uses the word "bearer" but on battlescribe it is suggesting that the icon is not taking the place of one of the standard legionaries the way the weapon/tome does.

You choose any one model to take the icon. So you could give it to the Champ with the fist or to the chain-axe bloke.

I imagine a marked unit with a fist & icon, tome, and chain axe for 150pts would be reason enough to be shot off the board.

Suppose I’ll have to experiment with lists to see what I’m actually giving up by taking those upgrades, and how useful they end up being, even if just for the flexibility.

It seems like marks+icons and the tome are the unique things legionaries offer. I’m not sure what else can combine the marks with the icons, and the ability to turn a troop unit into a psyker seems like a powerful option.

I can’t find another way to fit Prescience into my army, and although it’s not as powerful as it used to be it still seems worth including, especially when combined with WS3+ guys and a Lord aura.

Ah, for other legions, it would make sense to have the +1 to hit from running MOS for the power fist and heavy chain axe loadout. I guess because I have been playing with mostly black legion at this point. Hence, I get +1 to hit in many situations anyway, so I go with Khorne for the +1 str and +1AP. I mean, it makes it such that even the other 12 attacks with the other 3 dudes are Str 5 Ap2 attacks, which is pretty good. And having AP4 and AP5 is pretty wild. It goes through even 2+ saves like a knife through butter lol.

Any advice on where to go with this first 800 points?:

Creations of Bile Patrol

180 - Khorne DP - sword, talisman of burning blood, wings, warlord - prime test subject
105 - MoP - Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
75 - Accursed Cultists
90 - Legionaries w/ chainswords
140 - 5 Possessed
25 - Spawn
180 - 2 Obliterators

795 total

These units are becoming the central theme of the lists I've come up with and I'm wondering how best to continue. I'd like more Obliterators and Possessed, and to make the Legionaries more than just army tax. I was thinking based on the information above, giving them a power fist, icon, MoS, and a tome with prescience for 140 points. Add another Obliterator to make them an ideal target for turn 1 prescience if it goes off. Otherwise, I could add a Venomcrawler.

I'm thinking for a battalion I will want to have 2x5 Legionaries with a power fist, icon, MoS, and tome with prescience. That way either unit can cast Prescience and the other Delightful Agonies. Put Prescience on the Oblits or Possessed, and then put Delightful Agonies on whichever Legionaries unit is going to be sacrificed with the dagger. That leaves the power fist and icon champion to deal out some pain in close combat while sharing the benefit of taking the MoS, since I think the spell has some synergy with being a sacrificial ObSec unit. Or am I just wasting 2x50 points?

Over 1,000 points I'm looking at a Sorcerer & Terminators, and more possessed, obliterators, and the 2nd legionaries unit. Instead of the sorcerer/terminators, I could go with some demon engines, maybe a venomcrawler and heldrake. But really I'm trying to figure out how to complete a 1000 point patrol to start.

Hmm.. I haven't seen that many people talking about running Khorne DPs. But its fine if you like it. I think the general view is that DP gain more from other marks than khorne, because the one additional psychic they gain is more valuable than just +1 attack and +1 strength. Because you can gain additional attacks in other ways (relics or such) and using a sword already gives you Strength 8.

The rest of the list looks fine.

My Khorne DP is partly a remnant from primarily playing World Eaters, so I’ve always had a khorne DP and since I’ve given up on playing World Eaters, I’m hoping to use it to satisfy that itch while playing a more “balanced” list. Ironically, Chaos are more focused on melee than ever, so I found myself playing a predominantly melee army despite giving up on mono Khorne.

The tactical reason I didn’t make it a psyker is simply cuz at 1500+ points I’ll have a MoP and Sorcerer, so I don’t really have any other spells I want to cast besides Prescience, which I can put on my troops for 20 points.

I’m unsure if there’s a better way to equip the DP or if the relics should go elsewhere. The dude has 12 strength! With MoK, it has a base 10S on first round of combat due to the sword, but with CoB and the warlord trait, it just goes up. I think he’d do better with more AP and/or damage.

Can someone help me with how the double relics work? I thought it said you can only take 2 relics if 1 of them is a weapon, but neither can be demon weapons and everything seems to be a demon weapon.

I mean if you're running the Khorne Prince might as well take the Khorne Daemon Weapon on him. With proper buffs that's a good smashcaptain.

Just the hellforged sword that most people are bringing on their DP is already a great weapon since its +1 Str, AP3 and Damage 3. It honestly will be perfectly fine for most situations.

I suppose we could further upgrade that by making it into Zaall, the Wrathful daemon weapon so that it is now +1 Str, AP3, and 3+D3 damage. lol But it almost sounds like overkill. That extra D3 damage each strike will only matter when you are attacking knights or extra chonky models with tons of HP.

I mean, is there a vehicle you already can't kill with the base flat 3 damage? (Short of a knights and super heavies). Maybe the new chaos land raider?

If its a Khorne DP, maybe bring non-weapon relics and warlord traits instead because that sword is good enough for most situations already.

That’s why I gave him the talisman for extra threat range and additional attacks as the game progresses. I’m not sure how useful the additional heroic intervention reach will be with only 10 possessed and 10 terminators being combat units.

I’ve been reading bad reviews on here about obliterators. I’m wondering how many people are still using them as heavy weapon platforms. The last edition removed their powerfists and MoS let them shoot twice. But now their fists have returned and their melee attacks seem to be roughly as powerful as the anti-tank gun profile, plus they can shoot into combat. It seems like their points are paying for even more versatility now and if they’re only used as heavy weapons than I imagine havocs would fill that single role more efficiently.

Can anyone help me understand how to use chaos spawn? I saw someone mention a unit of 5 grabbing an objective early on. Is there any merit in a single spawn or a small unit of 2 maybe 3? Do I need 3+ to use them to screen? I’m not finding myself tight with fast attack and wonder if it’s worth spreading them out over multiple units or taking just 1.

Iggy88 wrote:
That’s why I gave him the talisman for extra threat range and additional attacks as the game progresses. I’m not sure how useful the additional heroic intervention reach will be with only 10 possessed and 10 terminators being combat units.

I’ve been reading bad reviews on here about obliterators. I’m wondering how many people are still using them as heavy weapon platforms. The last edition removed their powerfists and MoS let them shoot twice. But now their fists have returned and their melee attacks seem to be roughly as powerful as the anti-tank gun profile, plus they can shoot into combat. It seems like their points are paying for even more versatility now and if they’re only used as heavy weapons than I imagine havocs would fill that single role more efficiently.

Can anyone help me understand how to use chaos spawn? I saw someone mention a unit of 5 grabbing an objective early on. Is there any merit in a single spawn or a small unit of 2 maybe 3? Do I need 3+ to use them to screen? I’m not finding myself tight with fast attack and wonder if it’s worth spreading them out over multiple units or taking just 1.

Yes, I agree with you in this case for your Khorne DP.

For Obliterators. I think it depends on what kind of role you foresee for them. But as a dedicated anti-tank, I honestly think they are average only. And you are wasting their melee (which is darn good) if you want to keep them at max 24 inches and just shoot. You either run 3 on the board (mostly) so that your MOP has the option to resurrect one of them, or you can run them as individual 1 man obliterator models that deep strike in. I actually like the one model Obliterator deep strike role. It makes your obliterators much more flexible. You can use both their shooting plus their melee (if you roll a charge successfully). And at 90 points, one obliterator is much cheaper than one unit of 5 terminators. The deep strike shores up their mobility problems. What it doesn't solve is their average shooting. Their shooting just isn't outstanding. It just can't be relied on to kill stuff reliably. Like even on average rolls, I think 3 obliterators will have problems killing one single Rhino in one turn.

On Chaos Spawn, it really depends on what role you want them for. One single spawn is definitely an option. Turn 1, you run the single spawn up onto an objective. And now, your opponent has to kill this one irritating spawn off the objective. Some light infantry just can't kill it because it heals back to full after each shooting unit has gone. Wasting an anti-tank shot or shots on one single spawn feels wasted especially if there are other more valuable targets. If they charge something into it and kill it, its just 25 points, and now it sets you up for a big counter charge into that unit. So, it makes for a great opening move unit trading piece.

Higher number of spawn starts to be able to give Look out sir to your characters, and 3 or more in one unit start to be able to seriously threaten other enemy light infantry. Even 3 is still cheap at 75 points, and 3 are a chore for your opponent to kill. So, yeah, it really depends on what role you see them in. But I love chaos spawn and I have run them many times before in my lists.

One game, one unit got killed down to one model. And that one chaos spawn took and sat on an objective the whole game mostly all by himself. There was just too much else going on for my opponent to devote scarce resources to killing off that one spawn and it scored its weight in gold in primary objectives the rest of the game.

Chaos spawns are great. 1-3 of them can hold your home marker. 5 are great on the offense.

I dont get the negativity on oblits. What better anti armour unit do we have ? 4 LC havocs have 4 shots with unreliable D6 damage. 2 oblits have 4 shots on average with 4 damage. They have 10 T5 wounds just like the havoc unit. Their defense stat is even better at sv 2+ and 5+ inv, and they hit hard in melee.

Yeah, 4 havocs aren't ideal either. None of heavy support choices are that great really for anti-tank.

MoS Lascannon Havocs can use the Murderous Perfection Strat for an auto 6w hit at least

Or 6 damage. Not bad, but it costs a CP.

So looking at all those cool new 30k vehicles up for pre-order next week, do we think GW has forgotten about the entirety of the CSM side of IA? Is it over a month since the codex came out?

Iggy88 wrote:
Any advice on where to go with this first 800 points?:

Creations of Bile Patrol

180 - Khorne DP - sword, talisman of burning blood, wings, warlord - prime test subject
105 - MoP - Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
75 - Accursed Cultists
90 - Legionaries w/ chainswords
140 - 5 Possessed
25 - Spawn
180 - 2 Obliterators

795 total

These units are becoming the central theme of the lists I've come up with and I'm wondering how best to continue. I'd like more Obliterators and Possessed, and to make the Legionaries more than just army tax. I was thinking based on the information above, giving them a power fist, icon, MoS, and a tome with prescience for 140 points. Add another Obliterator to make them an ideal target for turn 1 prescience if it goes off. Otherwise, I could add a Venomcrawler.

I'm thinking for a battalion I will want to have 2x5 Legionaries with a power fist, icon, MoS, and tome with prescience. That way either unit can cast Prescience and the other Delightful Agonies. Put Prescience on the Oblits or Possessed, and then put Delightful Agonies on whichever Legionaries unit is going to be sacrificed with the dagger. That leaves the power fist and icon champion to deal out some pain in close combat while sharing the benefit of taking the MoS, since I think the spell has some synergy with being a sacrificial ObSec unit. Or am I just wasting 2x50 points?

Over 1,000 points I'm looking at a Sorcerer & Terminators, and more possessed, obliterators, and the 2nd legionaries unit. Instead of the sorcerer/terminators, I could go with some demon engines, maybe a venomcrawler and heldrake. But really I'm trying to figure out how to complete a 1000 point patrol to start.

MoP as Tzeenzch with Liber Hereticus for more range and 3 power of 4++ for Tzeenzch models.
Havocs with heavy Bolters as Tzeenzch.
Tzeenzch rubric marines with flamers with warp time as their psychic.

You have access to Daemon Shells, the great Sorcerer and Warp Borne foresight.

Havocs protec mop, mop can cast from 24 inch distance. Mop casts 3 spells and can protect Rubrics. If something comes in you kill it with warp borne foresight with flamers or Heavy Bolter.
In your turn you advance and warp time with flamers with you can move 6+6+1-6 (depending on advance roll). And you can roast enemies near your cultists as you don't hit your own with content over caution with flamers.
Obliterators 3
More Accursed Cultists, Chaos spawn, and nurgle Terminator stop the enemy in their march while you clear the field.

Edit:
Take a Rhino with Legionaires and drive it infront the Rubrics to protect from mortal wounds.
Best don't let the rhino get charged or let it get charged but without your rubrics in consolidation range.
Fill the rest of the points with possessed.
Maybe 1 legionaire troop with prescience.

What is your opinion on the surgical precision wlt from biles creations? I have so say that I really like it, especially as it goes damn well with deamon weapons. A DP with the trait and the Tzeentch Deamon Blade can munch through most targets. It also goes great along Ulloca the Black, triggering additional mortals on 4+ to hit.

I've been making weird lists that have tons of Fast Attack choices, like a Lord Discordant running up the table with a Venom Crawler, Maulerfiend, a whole stack of Spawn (two full-sized units), Raptors and Warp Talons (who get that Black Rune, 'cause why not?).

Dunno how effective it'd be, but it seems like it could be fun.

Fip wrote:

Iggy88 wrote:
Any advice on where to go with this first 800 points?:

Creations of Bile Patrol

180 - Khorne DP - sword, talisman of burning blood, wings, warlord - prime test subject
105 - MoP - Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
75 - Accursed Cultists
90 - Legionaries w/ chainswords
140 - 5 Possessed
25 - Spawn
180 - 2 Obliterators

795 total

These units are becoming the central theme of the lists I've come up with and I'm wondering how best to continue. I'd like more Obliterators and Possessed, and to make the Legionaries more than just army tax. I was thinking based on the information above, giving them a power fist, icon, MoS, and a tome with prescience for 140 points. Add another Obliterator to make them an ideal target for turn 1 prescience if it goes off. Otherwise, I could add a Venomcrawler.

I'm thinking for a battalion I will want to have 2x5 Legionaries with a power fist, icon, MoS, and tome with prescience. That way either unit can cast Prescience and the other Delightful Agonies. Put Prescience on the Oblits or Possessed, and then put Delightful Agonies on whichever Legionaries unit is going to be sacrificed with the dagger. That leaves the power fist and icon champion to deal out some pain in close combat while sharing the benefit of taking the MoS, since I think the spell has some synergy with being a sacrificial ObSec unit. Or am I just wasting 2x50 points?

Over 1,000 points I'm looking at a Sorcerer & Terminators, and more possessed, obliterators, and the 2nd legionaries unit. Instead of the sorcerer/terminators, I could go with some demon engines, maybe a venomcrawler and heldrake. But really I'm trying to figure out how to complete a 1000 point patrol to start.

MoP as Tzeenzch with Liber Hereticus for more range and 3 power of 4++ for Tzeenzch models.
Havocs with heavy Bolters as Tzeenzch.
Tzeenzch rubric marines with flamers with warp time as their psychic.

You have access to Daemon Shells, the great Sorcerer and Warp Borne foresight.

Havocs protec mop, mop can cast from 24 inch distance. Mop casts 3 spells and can protect Rubrics. If something comes in you kill it with warp borne foresight with flamers or Heavy Bolter.
In your turn you advance and warp time with flamers with you can move 6+6+1-6 (depending on advance roll). And you can roast enemies near your cultists as you don't hit your own with content over caution with flamers.
Obliterators 3
More Accursed Cultists, Chaos spawn, and nurgle Terminator stop the enemy in their march while you clear the field.

Edit:
Take a Rhino with Legionaires and drive it infront the Rubrics to protect from mortal wounds.
Best don't let the rhino get charged or let it get charged but without your rubrics in consolidation range.

Thank you for the detailed response!

MoP with the book is what I've been putting in my lists, I just removed it to see if there were other suggestions. I think that's the one, though. I'm not yet convinced on the Mark, though, either Tzeentch or Nurgle for sure, I'm thinking.

MoT makes sense in your suggestion given the addition of Rubricae and Tzeentch Havocs, but I was considering MoN for the Nurgle spell buff on the Terminators (who I plan to mark nurgle). Currently I have him unmarked to save points because it seems the Mark is largely only useful if he's using god-exclusive relics or has a target for the god-specific spell.

I can't see myself taking havocs, honestly, because I love obliterators too much and because Creations of Bile doesn't seem to synergize well with a heavy weapons unit that doesn't want to dabble in melee. They do have the benefit of providing the option to take more cultists, though, and I can see the benefit of access to mark-exclusive stratagems.

As for the Rubricae, you might've been the one talking about them in the previous pages. Someone went so far as to say everyone should have them in their lists and, tbh, I wasn't convinced. But now after having looked at them, it definitely feels like an idea. I don't actually own any, so I'm a little cautious because of how this combination may be treated with the FAQ. My main reason for wanting to avoid them is because I'm trying not to lean too heavily into any one of the marks/gods and am hoping to focus in on the daemonkin stuff. But, man, I do love flamers and have never had the opportunity to use a big flaming unit (I always wanted something like Burna Boyz in my World Eaters army).

I'm definitely going to keep them in consideration, especially if I can come up with a cool proxy alternative (in Dawn of War, possessed could be upgraded to breath fire, so maybe something like Tzeentch possessed flamer thing). In 1k+ I intended to have a Tzeentch Sorcerer casting Warptime on the nurgle terminators (buffed by the nurgle MoP), and then to secondarily be useful for psychic actions. Taking the Rubricae would disrupt a lot of that, so I'll have to play around with what my list would look like otherwise. It would offer the ability to take a different 3rd HQ, though.

The Rubricae definitely seem nice, it's just that I can't afford to have my spellcasters all buffing the same unit if I'm already allocating those spells to different units. Like, the MoP is already buffing the possessed and terminators. I either need to make selections that are functional without direct support like that, or I need to change who is going to be protected. But also with CoB, those Rubricae would be warptime advancing at 7+7+d6, and they'd have S5 (melee) for all the good that'd do lol

So, there are some tournament results in. So far, CSM has done great. We aren't OP and dominating the meta (which is a good sign because it means we won't get nerfed). And all the fears about Abaddon seems to be overblown. But a few CSM players have done very well. There were some CSM lists I saw which did well that didn't even bring Abaddon.

So far, the legions that have won or did very well (like come in 4-1 or 5-1) in GTs that I have observed are:

Black Legion
Night Lords (shocker!!!).
Creations of Bile

Interestingly enough, I haven't seen Emperor's Children or World Bearers win a GT yet, or come in like 5-1 or something. People were pretty sure these two legions were amongst the best legions in CSM. Very interesting. Or maybe I missed something.

I was considering adding a unit of 3 bikers in part as a cheap and quick unit to do actions, such as for the dark gods. But I noticed that they’re the same points as a single obliterator and I was wondering if there was any value in using an obliterator for an action. It feels like a much bigger waste, but it’s the same points investment. Could a single deep striking obliterator be useful for an action?

Iggy88 wrote:
I was considering adding a unit of 3 bikers in part as a cheap and quick unit to do actions, such as for the dark gods. But I noticed that they’re the same points as a single obliterator and I was wondering if there was any value in using an obliterator for an action. It feels like a much bigger waste, but it’s the same points investment. Could a single deep striking obliterator be useful for an action?

Any turn an Obliterator is not shooting or in melee is a waste of their abilities.

Iggy88 wrote:

Fip wrote:

Iggy88 wrote:
Any advice on where to go with this first 800 points?:

Creations of Bile Patrol

180 - Khorne DP - sword, talisman of burning blood, wings, warlord - prime test subject
105 - MoP - Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
75 - Accursed Cultists
90 - Legionaries w/ chainswords
140 - 5 Possessed
25 - Spawn
180 - 2 Obliterators

795 total

These units are becoming the central theme of the lists I've come up with and I'm wondering how best to continue. I'd like more Obliterators and Possessed, and to make the Legionaries more than just army tax. I was thinking based on the information above, giving them a power fist, icon, MoS, and a tome with prescience for 140 points. Add another Obliterator to make them an ideal target for turn 1 prescience if it goes off. Otherwise, I could add a Venomcrawler.

I'm thinking for a battalion I will want to have 2x5 Legionaries with a power fist, icon, MoS, and tome with prescience. That way either unit can cast Prescience and the other Delightful Agonies. Put Prescience on the Oblits or Possessed, and then put Delightful Agonies on whichever Legionaries unit is going to be sacrificed with the dagger. That leaves the power fist and icon champion to deal out some pain in close combat while sharing the benefit of taking the MoS, since I think the spell has some synergy with being a sacrificial ObSec unit. Or am I just wasting 2x50 points?

Over 1,000 points I'm looking at a Sorcerer & Terminators, and more possessed, obliterators, and the 2nd legionaries unit. Instead of the sorcerer/terminators, I could go with some demon engines, maybe a venomcrawler and heldrake. But really I'm trying to figure out how to complete a 1000 point patrol to start.

MoP as Tzeenzch with Liber Hereticus for more range and 3 power of 4++ for Tzeenzch models.
Havocs with heavy Bolters as Tzeenzch.
Tzeenzch rubric marines with flamers with warp time as their psychic.

You have access to Daemon Shells, the great Sorcerer and Warp Borne foresight.

Havocs protec mop, mop can cast from 24 inch distance. Mop casts 3 spells and can protect Rubrics. If something comes in you kill it with warp borne foresight with flamers or Heavy Bolter.
In your turn you advance and warp time with flamers with you can move 6+6+1-6 (depending on advance roll). And you can roast enemies near your cultists as you don't hit your own with content over caution with flamers.
Obliterators 3
More Accursed Cultists, Chaos spawn, and nurgle Terminator stop the enemy in their march while you clear the field.

Edit:
Take a Rhino with Legionaires and drive it infront the Rubrics to protect from mortal wounds.
Best don't let the rhino get charged or let it get charged but without your rubrics in consolidation range.

Thank you for the detailed response!

MoP with the book is what I've been putting in my lists, I just removed it to see if there were other suggestions. I think that's the one, though. I'm not yet convinced on the Mark, though, either Tzeentch or Nurgle for sure, I'm thinking.

MoT makes sense in your suggestion given the addition of Rubricae and Tzeentch Havocs, but I was considering MoN for the Nurgle spell buff on the Terminators (who I plan to mark nurgle). Currently I have him unmarked to save points because it seems the Mark is largely only useful if he's using god-exclusive relics or has a target for the god-specific spell.

I can't see myself taking havocs, honestly, because I love obliterators too much and because Creations of Bile doesn't seem to synergize well with a heavy weapons unit that doesn't want to dabble in melee. They do have the benefit of providing the option to take more cultists, though, and I can see the benefit of access to mark-exclusive stratagems.

As for the Rubricae, you might've been the one talking about them in the previous pages. Someone went so far as to say everyone should have them in their lists and, tbh, I wasn't convinced. But now after having looked at them, it definitely feels like an idea. I don't actually own any, so I'm a little cautious because of how this combination may be treated with the FAQ. My main reason for wanting to avoid them is because I'm trying not to lean too heavily into any one of the marks/gods and am hoping to focus in on the daemonkin stuff. But, man, I do love flamers and have never had the opportunity to use a big flaming unit (I always wanted something like Burna Boyz in my World Eaters army).

I'm definitely going to keep them in consideration, especially if I can come up with a cool proxy alternative (in Dawn of War, possessed could be upgraded to breath fire, so maybe something like Tzeentch possessed flamer thing). In 1k+ I intended to have a Tzeentch Sorcerer casting Warptime on the nurgle terminators (buffed by the nurgle MoP), and then to secondarily be useful for psychic actions. Taking the Rubricae would disrupt a lot of that, so I'll have to play around with what my list would look like otherwise. It would offer the ability to take a different 3rd HQ, though.

The Rubricae definitely seem nice, it's just that I can't afford to have my spellcasters all buffing the same unit if I'm already allocating those spells to different units. Like, the MoP is already buffing the possessed and terminators. I either need to make selections that are functional without direct support like that, or I need to change who is going to be protected. But also with CoB, those Rubricae would be warptime advancing at 7+7+d6, and they'd have S5 (melee) for all the good that'd do lol

What s CoB?

Rubrics with their sorcerer can buff themselves or spawns. They are a very nice body block as your enemy should remove them in shooting, because otherwise you get 1 CP full flamer dmg overwatch.
They can also warptime spawns that advanced to body block or threaten outer positions of the backfield in the following turn.

Terminators are protected brought with rune of damnation.
Possessed can hide behind buildings and then jump out, advance and then charge thanks to bile legion auto stimulants stratagem.

For your patrol I would go for
Venom crawler 105 points
Keeps up with your demon prince and protects it. Them gets sacrificed as a living bomb. 5+ explosion in enemy backfield.

Cultists 50 points - actions on backfield objectivs

And a unit of 2 spawns 50 points.
Body blocking threatingly, tangling Units.

Which secondaries do you wanna play?
Bile secondary, banner and engage? Their vehicle keyword of venom crawler is nice, cuz of new engage on all fronts rules.

CoB is Creations of Bile.

@Fip

CoB is Creations of Bile, which I'm pretty sold on. I just noticed that the Cult marines don't get legion traits, so never mind.

They really do sound fun, and even though they're not a melee unit they fight relatively close. I feel like warptiming them forward in a 2k game would be a short way to get them killed, but I could use them to warptime the terminators turn 1 and then they could get to where they need to be turn 2 with or without warptime. I don't even know what I'd be using a sorcerer for at that point except psychic actions.

Venomcrawler seems nice too. I definitely want more spawn but I'll have to decide what I'm going to do about fast attack first since I don't own one. Both Rubricae and a venomcrawler would need to be purchased.

I do have Cultists I just really don't want to use them.

I was thinking Bile secondary and engage for sure, and I'm unsure about the 3rd. I looked at the banner but I can't figure out what it would look like using that secondary in practice to get enough VP for it to be worth it. I was thinking For the Dark Gods, since it seems easy enough to get the 2 on my side of the board early on. And it synergizes with engage since I'm going to want to be getting on a third if not fourth quarter. I guess the 3rd in 2k would be one of the psychic actions since that's what the sorcerer is for.