Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition)

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**Dr.Duck**

Automatically Appended Next Post:

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Can someone maybe share experience with legionaries? I have 30 on sprue and simply cannot decide how to assemble them. 10 are fixed from the old SC, 10 are the normal kit and 10 are the new with the book and reaper cannon sprue.

I really like the idea of playing them as ref corsairs, maybe using 5-10 with Mark of Khorne, great axe and fist or deamon blade on Vet. I also like the idea of redundant psykers in some units. 5-10 Legionaries with Mark of Tzeentch and a Heavy Bolter and Book sound like a choice for ranged rupport. With bits from my old AoS Khorne force I could convert some to Khorne Berserkers, but to be honest I do not see the point why to pick Berzerkers over Legionaries with Mark as they cost more but have no access to fight twice or special weapon options.

Has anyone some advice?

I think 2 squads of Khorne legionaries in LRs might have legs. Would playtest it tho before buying another LR.

I kinda like the 10 man tzeench squad with HB and Chaincannon. If you pop daemon shell you get -2 ap Chaincannon and -3 AP HB with -2 bolters. Problem is they are just marines and you might struggle to keep them alive. So prob have a few more aggressive elements for your opponent to shoot at.

Really disapointed in the limited units you can put icons on. Would have loved to have 4HB havocs with tzeench and demonshell

Can you put Plague Marines in a CSM Landraider or is there a legion conflict?

**Insularum**

Dr.Duck wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Can someone maybe share experience with legionaries? I have 30 on sprue and simply cannot decide how to assemble them. 10 are fixed from the old SC, 10 are the normal kit and 10 are the new with the book and reaper cannon sprue.

I really like the idea of playing them as ref corsairs, maybe using 5-10 with Mark of Khorne, great axe and fist or deamon blade on Vet. I also like the idea of redundant psykers in some units. 5-10 Legionaries with Mark of Tzeentch and a Heavy Bolter and Book sound like a choice for ranged rupport. With bits from my old AoS Khorne force I could convert some to Khorne Berserkers, but to be honest I do not see the point why to pick Berzerkers over Legionaries with Mark as they cost more but have no access to fight twice or special weapon options.

Has anyone some advice?

I think 2 squads of Khorne legionaries in LRs might have legs. Would playtest it tho before buying another LR.

I kinda like the 10 man tzeench squad with HB and Chaincannon. If you pop daemon shell you get -2 ap Chaincannon and -3 AP HB with -2 bolters. Problem is they are just marines and you might struggle to keep them alive. So prob have a few more aggressive elements for your opponent to shoot at.

Really disapointed in the limited units you can put icons on. Would have loved to have 4HB havocs with tzeench and demonshell

Can you put Plague Marines in a CSM Landraider or is there a legion conflict?

You can put them in. Cult units are <legion> infantry so have all the keywords to get in transports - they just don't get the trait to go with the keyword.

**EviscerationPlague**

Dr.Duck wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Can someone maybe share experience with legionaries? I have 30 on sprue and simply cannot decide how to assemble them. 10 are fixed from the old SC, 10 are the normal kit and 10 are the new with the book and reaper cannon sprue.

I really like the idea of playing them as ref corsairs, maybe using 5-10 with Mark of Khorne, great axe and fist or deamon blade on Vet. I also like the idea of redundant psykers in some units. 5-10 Legionaries with Mark of Tzeentch and a Heavy Bolter and Book sound like a choice for ranged rupport. With bits from my old AoS Khorne force I could convert some to Khorne Berserkers, but to be honest I do not see the point why to pick Berzerkers over Legionaries with Mark as they cost more but have no access to fight twice or special weapon options.

Has anyone some advice?

I think 2 squads of Khorne legionaries in LRs might have legs. Would playtest it tho before buying another LR.

I kinda like the 10 man tzeench squad with HB and Chaincannon. If you pop daemon shell you get -2 ap Chaincannon and -3 AP HB with -2 bolters. Problem is they are just marines and you might struggle to keep them alive. So prob have a few more aggressive elements for your opponent to shoot at.

Really disapointed in the limited units you can put icons on. Would have loved to have 4HB havocs with tzeench and demonshell

Can you put Plague Marines in a CSM Landraider or is there a legion conflict?

Your MoT squad is absolutely a bad idea because Rubric Marines do all that at base.

**dan2026**

How are people using Terminators now?
If at all?

**Dol Guldur**

dan2026 wrote:
How are people using Terminators now?
If at all?

i like to run a 5 men with full flamers and teleport them to an enemy objective but im considering running a larger, melee oriented squad and walkthem with buffs, i play Emperor's Children mostly so the fists go without penalties

**Scactha**

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Can someone maybe share experience with legionaries? I have 30 on sprue and simply cannot decide how to assemble them. 10 are fixed from the old SC, 10 are the normal kit and 10 are the new with the book and reaper cannon sprue.
/.../
Has anyone some advice?

As Eldenfirefly wrote a bit back they are not doing anything specialized better than anyone else. E.g. if you want melee better pick Possessed, Berzerkers etc..

That said they are ObSec Troops, meaning if you want to handle midfield Primary Objective work they make more sense. Sure they aren´t the tip of the spear, but alongside something they seem fine. They are decently durable, they hit fairly hard and have a sizable footprint if you fill up a LR/Rhino of them.

Make a plan and they´ll deliver. They´re just not solo operators.

**xeen**

Well for the Rubrics I have used them and they are good. However, they are 230 for ten with a Soulreaper and mark of Tzeentch. 10 Legionaries with mark of Tzeentch, icon, chain cannon, and tome is 235, so about equivalent. The Rubrics have one better ap on their bolters, but that is a big difference due to AoC. The chain cannon is more shots, but also one less ap and one less strength (although 5 to 6 is usually not a noticeable leap). The Rubrics also have all is dust making them a bit tankyier. However, the legionaries have obsec and one more attack in close combat.

For me the problem with taking the rubrics over the legionaries is you have to account for 50 more points, as the Rubrics are not troops. Although personally I think running 5 man legionaries is a better idea to keep them cheap objective holders to work along side the elite units. I also think a lot of the equipment for the Legionaries is over priced for what it does. Finally if you are bringing rubrics, I would bring the flamers, which are sooooooooo good right now, which now would not really be comparable to the legionary squad anymore.

As for terminators I have run the big 10 man with the Rune and mark of Tzeentch, and the bare bones 5 man deep-striking. The deep-striking has been good as the terminators usually out match anything that is in the back line. However the big brick is also very good. I would say it kind of depends on what else you are bringing.I just got my 10 possessed to use this weekend, and so I am going to put the Rune on them, which is why I took the terminators down to 5 man, as the chosen can be put in my land raider.

**kerbarian**

For the big terminator brick with Rune and buffs, how are people loading them out? I think I've seen people talking about everything from a bare loadout (their job is to be unkillable) to full guns and power/chainfists.

My thinking had been to add some fists and reaper AC but not much for combi-weapons, since if they're not deep striking I'm not sure if they'll have any rounds where they're shooting within 12" and not also charging. But I also haven't had a chance to play any actual games with them yet.

**Daedalus81**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Your MoT squad is absolutely a bad idea because Rubric Marines do all that at base.

Yea the bigger problem being the soulreaper is 5 which the reaper is 15. The CSM weapon costs are pretty high right now. The Legionarie squad has two heavies, but the CP requirement definitely puts them as less effective. The only upshot is obsec, but for ~225 points I can have something more durable there.

10 man Legionaries is for melee. 5 mans are the best for flexible shooting, but then the marks and icon become cost prohibitive.

**xeen**

Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Your MoT squad is absolutely a bad idea because Rubric Marines do all that at base.

Yea the bigger problem being the soulreaper is 5 which the reaper is 15. The CSM weapon costs are pretty high right now. The Legionarie squad has two heavies, but the CP requirement definitely puts them as less effective. The only upshot is obsec, but for ~225 points I can have something more durable there.

10 man Legionaries is for melee. 5 mans are the best for flexible shooting, but then the marks and icon become cost prohibitive.

I agree with this completely. I think Legionaries are cheap 5 man for objective holding (maybe a CC weapon or Chain cannon for some added light firepower but not both and certainly no other frills) or are 10 man melee attack squad with I would say mark of Khorne, but I could also see Slannesh.

I mean also maybe, paying the 20 points for the Tome on a 5 man (and nothing else) for a sorcerer to cast presience.

**Eldenfirefly**

Also, on the subject on legionares. If its for a shooty backfield unit to hold an objective, you could just use an actual shooty unit like a Havoc squad, or a rubric shooty squad. You don't need the obsec unit per se for a backfield objective. So actual shooty units like rubrics or havocs will do the shooting better than legionaires squads trying to be shooty, and since its in the backfield, being obsec is not quite so important.

As Scactha pointed out, Legionaries are if you want an obsec unit that needs to get into harm's way. Like if you want obsec to contest or claim a midfield objective. Cultists obviously would be toast in such situations and easily picked off even with very incidental fire. Legionares at least has some chances to survive, especially if you have other units alongside or in front of them.

**EviscerationPlague**

Depends how important the ObSec is for that too. Running Red Corsairs I'm already double counting, so if the opponent only has dead ObSec units it doesn't matter as much.

**Saturmorn Carvilli**

dan2026 wrote:
How are people using Terminators now?
If at all?

I have been running a max squad of Black Legion Terminators with Black Rune and Mark of Tzeentch supported by a Dark Apostle and Master of Possession. It can face tank pretty well, but I found it too slow to do much. If it doesn't get into melee, it very much can be ignored (just like Abaddon).

Next game, I think I am going to go with 10 Terminators with 2 Chainfists, 4 Powerfists and 4 combi-meltas (that's how my models are built), Black Rune, Mark of Slaanesh supported by a Slaaneshi Sorcerer in Terminator Armor with Veilbreaker Plate possibly with Merciless Overseer to overclock shooting. The idea is to teleport them Turn 1 right in my opponent's face and possibly use Tip of the Spear for re-roll charge if I need extra AP in melee. With Death Hex and Delightful Agonies from the Sorcerer to get the most out of my melee weapons and shore of defense should my Terminators fail their charge (twice).

It might not be a good idea, but it will certainly get my Terminators into the thick of it right away. I figure worst case scenario, those Terminators eat up a lot of Turn 1 attacks and slow my opponent early game. The one thing it does do is feel very Luna Wolves... the aphla-iest of the alpha strikes.

But that is pretty much where I am with C:CSM. A lot of cool tricks that can be done once a game, that probably don't warrant the resources put into them and will ultimately cost you the game.

**Dr.Duck**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Dr.Duck wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Can someone maybe share experience with legionaries? I have 30 on sprue and simply cannot decide how to assemble them. 10 are fixed from the old SC, 10 are the normal kit and 10 are the new with the book and reaper cannon sprue.

I really like the idea of playing them as ref corsairs, maybe using 5-10 with Mark of Khorne, great axe and fist or deamon blade on Vet. I also like the idea of redundant psykers in some units. 5-10 Legionaries with Mark of Tzeentch and a Heavy Bolter and Book sound like a choice for ranged rupport. With bits from my old AoS Khorne force I could convert some to Khorne Berserkers, but to be honest I do not see the point why to pick Berzerkers over Legionaries with Mark as they cost more but have no access to fight twice or special weapon options.

Has anyone some advice?

I think 2 squads of Khorne legionaries in LRs might have legs. Would playtest it tho before buying another LR.

I kinda like the 10 man tzeench squad with HB and Chaincannon. If you pop daemon shell you get -2 ap Chaincannon and -3 AP HB with -2 bolters. Problem is they are just marines and you might struggle to keep them alive. So prob have a few more aggressive elements for your opponent to shoot at.

Really disapointed in the limited units you can put icons on. Would have loved to have 4HB havocs with tzeench and demonshell

Can you put Plague Marines in a CSM Landraider or is there a legion conflict?

Your MoT squad is absolutely a bad idea because Rubric Marines do all that at base.

I mean the guy was asking for ideas on legionaries. I have no doubt that rubrics or havocs a few other things in the dex do a better job but they arent troops and they arent legionaries. MSU tome units are definitely the better way to fill the troops.

Building a EC list its hard to not notice the mark tax on every unit. I find myself avoiding certain units over others because they simpily cant have a mark and are thus 15 points cheaper, and dont need some of the buffs im bringing. Having to mark my havocs/MoE/ and other characters adds up quick, and has me looking at other options.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
dan2026 wrote:
How are people using Terminators now?
If at all?

I have been running a max squad of Black Legion Terminators with Black Rune and Mark of Tzeentch supported by a Dark Apostle and Master of Possession. It can face tank pretty well, but I found it too slow to do much. If it doesn't get into melee, it very much can be ignored (just like Abaddon).

Next game, I think I am going to go with 10 Terminators with 2 Chainfists, 4 Powerfists and 4 combi-meltas (that's how my models are built), Black Rune, Mark of Slaanesh supported by a Slaaneshi Sorcerer in Terminator Armor with Veilbreaker Plate possibly with Merciless Overseer to overclock shooting. The idea is to teleport them Turn 1 right in my opponent's face and possibly use Tip of the Spear for re-roll charge if I need extra AP in melee. With Death Hex and Delightful Agonies from the Sorcerer to get the most out of my melee weapons and shore of defense should my Terminators fail their charge (twice).

It might not be a good idea, but it will certainly get my Terminators into the thick of it right away. I figure worst case scenario, those Terminators eat up a lot of Turn 1 attacks and slow my opponent early game. The one thing it does do is feel very Luna Wolves... the aphla-iest of the alpha strikes.

But that is pretty much where I am with C:CSM. A lot of cool tricks that can be done once a game, that probably don't warrant the resources put into them and will ultimately cost you the game.

I really like this super aggressive plan to get your terms in there and kinda road block the enemy early on. Been building lists with warptime just to get the terms up the midboard as fast as possible T1 but just taking veilbreaker might be more effective. Qs tho

Do you find it hard to keep your sorc alive when he goes in there to?
Whats the rest of your list? Can they effectively reach your terms by T2/3?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something brought up in a vid covering all the things of EC. Kinda pointless to discuss becuase I dont think it works the way he thinks

MoS confers Slaanesh Keyword
Being EC also confers Slaanesh keyword to all units that either have undivided keyword or no other keyword
Possessed cant get MoS but can recieve the Slaanesh keyword if in EC and can buy an icon.
Guy seems to think that they then get the MoS and with the icon get both buffs.
I think its pretty clear that Possessed are only getting the keyword Slaanesh but are not actually recieving a mark and thus cannot benefit from fights first or +1 to hit if buying an Icon.

Tho this would be a neat clarification/buff for people playing EC or maybe WE when the book comes out if maybe this was intended.

**Rydria**

Dr.Duck wrote:

MoS confers Slaanesh Keyword
Being EC also confers Slaanesh keyword to all units that either have undivided keyword or no other keyword
Possessed cant get MoS but can recieve the Slaanesh keyword if in EC and can buy an icon.
Guy seems to think that they then get the MoS and with the icon get both buffs.
I think its pretty clear that Possessed are only getting the keyword Slaanesh but are not actually recieving a mark and thus cannot benefit from fights first or +1 to hit if buying an Icon.

Tho this would be a neat clarification/buff for people playing EC or maybe WE when the book comes out if maybe this was intended.

What is the exact wording for taking a chaos icon ? or what page is it covered on in the book so I can check it myself.

**Saturmorn Carvilli**

Dr.Duck wrote:
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
dan2026 wrote:
How are people using Terminators now?
If at all?
I think I am going to go with 10 Terminators with 2 Chainfists, 4 Powerfists and 4 combi-meltas (that's how my models are built), Black Rune, Mark of Slaanesh supported by a Slaaneshi Sorcerer in Terminator Armor with Veilbreaker Plate possibly with Merciless Overseer to overclock shooting. The idea is to teleport them Turn 1 right in my opponent's face and possibly use Tip of the Spear for re-roll charge if I need extra AP in melee. With Death Hex and Delightful Agonies from the Sorcerer to get the most out of my melee weapons and shore of defense should my Terminators fail their charge (twice).

I really like this super aggressive plan to get your terms in there and kinda road block the enemy early on. Been building lists with warptime just to get the terms up the midboard as fast as possible T1 but just taking veilbreaker might be more effective. Qs tho

Do you find it hard to keep your sorc alive when he goes in there to?
Whats the rest of your list? Can they effectively reach your terms by T2/3?

I fully expect the Sorcerer to be destroyed Turn 2 if my Terminators get into melee. At that point, the Sorcerer has done its job. If the Terminators fail to charge, the Sorcerer will have Look Out, Sir! until the Terminator Squad is depleted. Which depends on how many resources my opponent puts into them. I will consider it a nicety if the Terminators remain for use Turn 2.

Haarken and 17 Raptors, Land Raider, 10 Khorne Chainsword Legionaries and a Rhino, 5 Bolter and Autocannon Legionaries x2, Las Cannon Havocs.Almost the whole army is designed to be highly mobile and or have some reach. Its weakness is everything wants to be in a deathstar, creating basically 3-4 super units. I doubt it is optimal, but my last 4 games, lack of speed and long range shooting has been my crippling weaknesses. Next game, I absolutely want to not have that be the case.

**Kangarupe**

techsoldaten wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Abaddon absolutely has to get into combat. So I would agree with any and all methods to get him into combat. However, I would raise one point. If you plan to deep strike him in (be it from a dreadclaw or by warpstrike), then a good player will see what you are doing a mile away. And a good player will know how powerful he is in close combat too.

Putting him in a dreadclaw is interesting because turn 1 its coming down. I don't own any forgeworld so I am assuming he can go into a dreadclaw in the first place, but if you are doing that, you will probably put another unit in there as well. (You might as well). And now we are talking about hundreds upon hundreds of points all in one single dreadclaw waiting to come down on turn 1. This is the same issue with deep striking Abaddon. You will likely deep strike him alongside terminators and obliterators. It requires a certain deep strike footprint and any good player can see it coming a mile away.

Considering its easily one third or more of your army deep striking in at one spot. A good opponent WILL screen as if the game win/loss depended on it. (Because it likely will).

I feel like given how durable we can make a big block of terminators or possessed. Applying extreme pressure to the mid board by moving them up the board turn 1 along with Abaddon is how I would do this. Yes, it sounds slow. But Black legion has some interesting subtle tricks and we have warptime as well.

Black Legion has the Veilbreaker plate relic. Its literally veil of time on a terminator model. We don't need a transport or to deepstrike. We can literally turn 1 veil of time a block of "core" terminators right up the board. Now, how will Abbadon get there? Well, we can warp time him up. This is why warptime is still useful even if you can't charge if you cast it. Abbadon that advances along with warptime cast on him will go 12+d6 inches up the board. That's literally like a flying DP.

So, veilbreaker plate a big block of 10 terminators up the board, and warptime Abbadon right up along with them. Now turn 1, we already have a massive force up the board, a terminator character, and Abaddon with them. The good thing about this is we start off hidden. Any time we want, we can activate this strategy. On any turn! Not just turn 1 or 2 or 3. The other good thing about using this strategy is that we don't waste Abaddon's awesome command phase buffs. He is still on the table to hand out his great buffs.

Another trick that Black Legion has. For one CP, we can use "Confluence of Traitors" to have any one of our units gain an extra other legion trait for one battle round. This is soooo good because it opens up 8 other possible legion traits we can add to one unit. Want a unit to advance and charge? Add the Red Corsairs trait to it. Want it to have fight upon death? Add Creation of Bile. Want it to be super tanky? Add Iron Warriors on a unit of Nurgle and Cast Grand Father's Blessing (Now only wound on 4s, and cannot reroll wounds). Lots of MW incoming from a psychic heavy army? Add the World Bearer's Trait for a 5+ FNP against MW.

What clever ideas. But deep striking Abaddon seems more efficient.

I'm in the early phases of putting together a melee list to test the new Codex. My main concern is getting the jump on shooty, non-Knight armies. Black Legion has some interesting beta strike possibilities worth considering.

Start the game with a Terminator CL with Veilbreaker Plate, Mutants / Torments, a melee Helbrute, and whatever else on the board. Second turn, deep strike Abaddon plus Terminators and have the CL teleport with the Helbrute while the Mutants seize objectives. Opponent can't ignore the mutants, they regenerate unless the unit is wiped out. So the Terminators don't have to deal with as much focus fire.

This gets more interesting if the Terminators are allied Blightlords and there was also a Lord of Contagion or something there for additional buffs.

I can't find the veilbreaker plate anywhere in the new codex. I'm aware that battlescribe lets you select it as a relic but I couldn't locate it in the physical book at all. Auspex Tactics also does not mention it in the new book review.

**Daedalus81**

Kangarupe wrote:

I can't find the veilbreaker plate anywhere in the new codex. I'm aware that battlescribe lets you select it as a relic but I couldn't locate it in the physical book at all. Auspex Tactics also does not mention it in the new book review.

Black Legion relic - page 81

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Also, on the subject on legionares. If its for a shooty backfield unit to hold an objective, you could just use an actual shooty unit like a Havoc squad, or a rubric shooty squad. You don't need the obsec unit per se for a backfield objective. So actual shooty units like rubrics or havocs will do the shooting better than legionaires squads trying to be shooty, and since its in the backfield, being obsec is not quite so important.

As Scactha pointed out, Legionaries are if you want an obsec unit that needs to get into harm's way. Like if you want obsec to contest or claim a midfield objective. Cultists obviously would be toast in such situations and easily picked off even with very incidental fire. Legionares at least has some chances to survive, especially if you have other units alongside or in front of them.

Yea, people tend to under estimate how difficult it is to remove marines these days.

**Dr.Duck**

Rydria wrote:
Dr.Duck wrote:

MoS confers Slaanesh Keyword
Being EC also confers Slaanesh keyword to all units that either have undivided keyword or no other keyword
Possessed cant get MoS but can recieve the Slaanesh keyword if in EC and can buy an icon.
Guy seems to think that they then get the MoS and with the icon get both buffs.
I think its pretty clear that Possessed are only getting the keyword Slaanesh but are not actually recieving a mark and thus cannot benefit from fights first or +1 to hit if buying an Icon.

Tho this would be a neat clarification/buff for people playing EC or maybe WE when the book comes out if maybe this was intended.

What is the exact wording for taking a chaos icon ? or what page is it covered on in the book so I can check it myself.

Pg 112 and 144

**Sersi**

Rydria wrote:
Dr.Duck wrote:

MoS confers Slaanesh Keyword
Being EC also confers Slaanesh keyword to all units that either have undivided keyword or no other keyword
Possessed cant get MoS but can recieve the Slaanesh keyword if in EC and can buy an icon.
Guy seems to think that they then get the MoS and with the icon get both buffs.
I think its pretty clear that Possessed are only getting the keyword Slaanesh but are not actually recieving a mark and thus cannot benefit from fights first or +1 to hit if buying an Icon.

Tho this would be a neat clarification/buff for people playing EC or maybe WE when the book comes out if maybe this was intended.

What is the exact wording for taking a chaos icon ? or what page is it covered on in the book so I can check it myself.

Emperor's Children Legion Rules grants the SLAANESH keyword to units that cannot take marks.

The Mark of Slaanesh grants the SLAANESH keyword to units with <CHAOS UNDIVIDED>.

But only the Mark of Slaanesh provides acess to the Slaanesh ICON, it you can't take the MARK then you don't benefit from Fight First.

**Eldenfirefly**

Yeah, I think I agree. Just getting a keyword doesn't mean you receive the benefits of that chaos mark unless you specifically paid the points for that chaos mark.

I am gradually adjusting my thinking a bit. Yes our shooting might not be the best nor the most efficient, but I feel that we would benefit from having some shooting at least.

There are a lot of situations where shooting helps. Say you want to put pressure on one flank. You can pile all your shooting into that flank plus whatever you can charge in, goes in. Or you can clear out one mid board objective if opponent places just one cheap unit on it as long as your shooting is decent.

And there are some planes that are pretty deadly, and short of shooting them, trying to use that one or two flying units we have to charge and melee them to death is just not ideal. Plus if your opponent is skilled, he will know how to keep his planes away from your charge range.

Plus there are some sorts of move block situations that are better resolved if we clear the cheap move blocking unit via shooting rather than charging it.

A pure melee army is very predictable. All of our infantry outside of possessed move 6 inches. Most of the time, our opponent can see where we are massing towards, where our pressure will be coming from. He can then keep out of charge range, move block with a throwaway unit, etc.

So, I am coming round to the fact that we do need some shooting. And not just light shooting, but anti armour shooting too. Imagine after a rhino or raider unloads their cargo, it zips over to a relatively distant midboard objective and just sits there. Its a super cheap transport, but if we brought zero anti tank guns, it would keep scoring that objective for the rest of the game.

Even some CSM on CSM matches. Say a world eaters force loads up on rhinos and comes at us. If your force is nothing except melee units. Then the world eaters force immediately has the advantage. You have no shooting that can pop those Rhinos. You charge his Rhinos and kill it. Now his turn, he gets to charge you with all his berserkers that piled out. In a melee on melee matchup, the one that charges first usually has the advantage.

So yeah, even though I think our shooting isn't great. I do think it would be good to have some. Be it from Havocs, or Vindicators, Predator Tanks, Obliterators, Predator Tanks, Noise Marines with Blast Masters, Forgefiends, that one heavy weapon a legionaire squad can bring, That Land Raider that doubles as a transport, or even a Lord of Skulls. The presence of some anti-tank shooting would add a lot of flexibility to our army.

**Dr.Duck**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Yeah, I think I agree. Just getting a keyword doesn't mean you receive the benefits of that chaos mark unless you specifically paid the points for that chaos mark.

I am gradually adjusting my thinking a bit. Yes our shooting might not be the best nor the most efficient, but I feel that we would benefit from having some shooting at least.

There are a lot of situations where shooting helps. Say you want to put pressure on one flank. You can pile all your shooting into that flank plus whatever you can charge in, goes in. Or you can clear out one mid board objective if opponent places just one cheap unit on it as long as your shooting is decent.

And there are some planes that are pretty deadly, and short of shooting them, trying to use that one or two flying units we have to charge and melee them to death is just not ideal. Plus if your opponent is skilled, he will know how to keep his planes away from your charge range.

Plus there are some sorts of move block situations that are better resolved if we clear the cheap move blocking unit via shooting rather than charging it.

A pure melee army is very predictable. All of our infantry outside of possessed move 6 inches. Most of the time, our opponent can see where we are massing towards, where our pressure will be coming from. He can then keep out of charge range, move block with a throwaway unit, etc.

So, I am coming round to the fact that we do need some shooting. And not just light shooting, but anti armour shooting too. Imagine after a rhino or raider unloads their cargo, it zips over to a relatively distant midboard objective and just sits there. Its a super cheap transport, but if we brought zero anti tank guns, it would keep scoring that objective for the rest of the game.

Even some CSM on CSM matches. Say a world eaters force loads up on rhinos and comes at us. If your force is nothing except melee units. Then the world eaters force immediately has the advantage. You have no shooting that can pop those Rhinos. You charge his Rhinos and kill it. Now his turn, he gets to charge you with all his berserkers that piled out. In a melee on melee matchup, the one that charges first usually has the advantage.

So yeah, even though I think our shooting isn't great. I do think it would be good to have some. Be it from Havocs, or Vindicators, Predator Tanks, Obliterators, Predator Tanks, Noise Marines with Blast Masters, Forgefiends, that one heavy weapon a legionaire squad can bring or even a Lord of Skulls. It would add a lot of flexibility to our army.

Agreed, Curze brought up the Rapier a few pages back and Ive been throwing them in to a few lists because they are pretty cheap and can be thrown in lists that are struggling to make points. 110 for 3 shots at S10 -4 and D3+3. Unfortunately it is rather slow and the range isnt the greatest at 36 but it is small and can hide behind terrain very easily.

Not to derail, because I do think a ranged presence is important to not just get manipulated by the opponent.

Just a note for any1 interested in running Daemonkins, DiscoLords, Possessed and Warp talons can really get turned up damage wise if taking the malefic power Infernal Power. In regards to MSU Possessed/Warptalons, you might beable to trade with things you have no buisness trading with. In EC you get an additional -1 AP with this combo. EC also give you a greater variety of ways to slingshot those units up the board utilizing Honor the prince twice in a turn and the advance and charge Prayer. You can HtP one unit and HtP + Adv and Chg another. All Daemonkin can be targeted with HtP, but Daemonkin (but the disco lord can) cannot receive the advance and charge prayer.

Any hit rolls of a 6 will also auto wound (counting as a 6) giving you -1 AP for that hit in EC. If in Slaughter then those 6s on hits will also explode.

If you taking a loaded up DiscoLord with Flames of spite. All attacks that hit on a 6 will explode (if in slaughter) will auto wound get -1Ap and cause MWs, you will get rerolls to wound (on any that didnt auto wound) and any 6s to wound will again be -1 AP and cause MWs. You get 14 attacks to fish for any and all 6s, +D3 attacks if you take the Elixir which I think is probably a good idea.

Can also do this with a DP, if you want some extra Psyker presence/mobility, if given the twin Daemon weapon. 7 attacks +2D3. I think less damage but more utility with ability to cast spells. NVM THIS DOENST WORK.[u] DP cannot receive the Infernal power benefit because he is a Daemon and a Daemon Prince but not a Daemonkin. Bruh....

Sry I digress but I get so excited with these combos. I realize that we dont necessarily need more CC potential but its for sure there. Will have to workout tonight how much damage these guys do on average.

**Melevolence**

Fairly fresh to Chaos in general, really focusing in on the faction this edition with an EC army (A legion I've wanted to make for ages but just never got around to it. Mostly due to the Chaos range at the time not being very good looking + serious lack of EC specific models *cough Noise Marines*

So my take has always been a balance of shooty and choppy in most armies I've played. I'll be banking on Oblits and Noise Marines as my main shooting support, possibly tossing in a squad of Havocs.

Noise Marines feel like a decent swiss army knife shooting unit now. Sonic guns not being absolute trash is fantastic and being able to make use of the Wantons pretty much all game is solid too. Blast Masters are great as an addition hidden 'las cannon' type weapon that can fire off at a more suitable target while the rest roar away at their ideal targets. Being able to just romp around and ignoring most modifiers due to EC perks is pretty strong. MSU of these guys should be able to put out a lot of firepower to deal with even other MEQ with their volume of fire and increased damage up close.

Oblits and Havocs feel like your typical backrow campers to fire at whatever they need. Oblits being incredibly flexible due to their weapon profile or can be warped in to ambush someone (And not being slouches in Melee they can double as an ambush unit to boot).

My army currently lacks direction for my punchy side but I'm thinking a couple Helbrutes could be fun even if not 'competitive'. Might make em Sonic Helbrutes with Legends rules (Since I don't play in tournaments) to be not only punchy but shooty as they lumber their way up the board.

Not as keen on many Daemon Engines though since they kinda require a bit too much 'babysitting' by dedicated HQ support.

Punchy Termies could be fun as a 'here we are!' kind of threat to start raking the backlines or simply cut off an approaching unit I don't like, etc.

But I guess I haven't really added anything enlightening to the conversation, more or less spitballing my thoughts on how I've been constructing my first 2k point list and how I'm trying to cover my bases.

**dominuschao**

Shooting is everything in this game. It's force concentration and can't be chaffed. The fact that they've shoehorned csm into a linear rush style is very bad. Id like to revisit this in 6 months and see how the optimism has faired.
My prediction is land raiders will still be on shelves immortal terminators will be nerfed while the book shows it's lack of depth and longevity. Without some new supplements and some timely erratas that is.

**ph34r**

My aspiring champions had combi-bolters so I need to give them new weapons.

What would the best melee weapon to give them?

Daemon blade? Tainted chain axe? Power fist? Those three seem all better than normal power weapons, right?

**Eldenfirefly**

ph34r wrote:
My aspiring champions had combi-bolters so I need to give them new weapons.

What would the best melee weapon to give them?

Daemon blade? Tainted chain axe? Power fist? Those three seem all better than normal power weapons, right?

I like power fist, because its more versatile. Str 8, AP3, D2 can handle almost anything, be it vehicle or infantry. And there are some legions where the -1 to hit is not such a big deal. Like Black legion gets +1 to hit if they charge anyway, emperor's children don't care, and world bearers get reroll to hits in melee.

**Insularum**

ph34r wrote:
My aspiring champions had combi-bolters so I need to give them new weapons.

What would the best melee weapon to give them?

Daemon blade? Tainted chain axe? Power fist? Those three seem all better than normal power weapons, right?

Daemon blade becomes a good performer when stacked with mark of khorne and an icon, but that requires 30 points sinking into a troops unit (spending that much and you may as well take a unit of chosen). Power fist is old reliable for just having to pay for 1 upgrade and it will get work done. The 5 point options are all interchangeable really, and might struggle to compete with just going double chainsword for free.

It might sound a bit odd, but wasting a CP on trophies to give a generic champ the blade of the relentless or the black mace might not be a terrible idea as those both seem quite high performance but wouldn't make much difference on any units that are already combat specialists.

**Rogerio134134**

Played my first game with iron warriors against orks this week and was pleasantly surprised with how things went.

Disco lord with the flames of spite WL trait is utterly amazing. Took down multiple units on his own despite IW not being particularly synergistic towards combat. Run him next to a maulerfiend and buff the mauler up every turn actually makes the mauler amazing in combat.

I went with the tactic of throwing teen terminators with Mark of nurgle, black rune of damnation and the dark apostle giving them illusory supplication and using the bastion warlord traits to make the terminators obsec. Those guys are basically unkillable and held the middle well and soaked up alot of fire. Hovering just behind them were a squad of chosen and warp talons for counter charging.
The rest of the army pushed the flanks and I left a squad of Havoc's and cultists on my backfield objective to hold it.

Legionnaires wise I run 2 X 5 man squads with a champion with a PF which adds a nice little bit of spice if they get in combat.

Overall I'm enjoying the book and looking forward to trying new stuff.

**Eldenfirefly**

I tried out my Lord of skulls the other day playing with Iron Warriors legion. He did surprisingly well (despite costing 575 points). He had a warpsmith advancing alongside him with architect of destruction giving him exploding 6s to hit and +1 to hit with his guns every turn. And I used the IW strategem methodical annihilation every round so that his blast weapons would count as double models when shooting.

10 men squads are quite common these days, and that strategem gives your blast weapons full shots on any squad with 6 men in it. His skull hurler was doing 12 shots and his ichor cannon was doing 9 shots on the big squads (and with exploding 6s and hitting on 2s). And these are all AP3, flat damage 2 or damage 3 shots. So it was pretty devastating.

He dominated one flank while using his shooting to help thin the ranks everywhere else. He is expensive in points, but in an Iron Warrior's list, I think he can work.

I think running him up on one flank is better than running him in straight center. His gun's range are so far they reach most of the board anyway. So, he doesn't really need to be in the center where every single enemy gun can reach him. And usually, a more lightly defended flank may not have so much concentration of enemy units and so he should have an easier time crushing that flank and then using his long range guns to help out everywhere else. I ran him with Ichor Cannon (48 inches range) and Skullhurler (60 inch range).

And he can fall back and charge, and fall back and shoot too. So, its really quite hard to tarpit him. And considering he moves 10 inches and shoots at least 48 inches, he has a really long reach!

**ph34r**

Thanks for those field reports guys. Any particular thoughts about the Iron Warriors aspect of things? I don't run a Lord of Skulls but I have daemon engines, obliterators, havocs, normal stuff like that.

I was looking into shooting squads... Before, I would take 5 guys with a lascannon for 85 points. Ok, now those same guys are 105 points, roughly a 25% drop in firepower per point. They can get a psyker book though, and maybe buff 4 havoc lascannons with that, but you still end up with:

125p 5 legionnaires, psyker, lascannon
responsible for 2/3 of a lascannon hit from their personal shooting, and BS 3+ to 2+ is a 25% increase for 4 havoc lascannons 60% of the time when the spell casts, for another 0.6 lascannon hits worth, so 1 1/4 hits. 100 points per hit.

145 5 havocs, 4 lascannons
responsible for 2 2/3 hits with the lascannons. 54 points per hit, just about twice as good firepower for the price as the legionnaires even when they are doing a very useful buff.

Is this a reasonable "combo" to run or is this kinda pointless to take legionnaires to do shooting now, and one should just take another unit of havocs (or 2 more units even)