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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No Jump Pack in the Codex for Chaos Lords/Sorcerers. No Lightning Claws anymore either for them (unless you're a Terminator Lord). Even Raptor Champs can't take Lightning Claws.

Exalted Champs lost all their options too.

Chosen can't take Power Fists for no easily discernible reason.

Should be 22 I believe.

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Just a quick question regarding the Talon of Horus...

How many attacks would Abaddon get with it?

Let’s say I rolled +3 attacks as I’m fighting Imperium targets; is that 8x2 + 3 attacks for 19 attacks total or 8+3x2 for 22 attacks total?

Its 2 hit rolls per attacks so if you got +3 attacks you would get 22 attacks

 Insularum wrote:
I like the look of for the dark gods too, but it's an end of movement phase action so no warptiming into range. I reckon the general plan is to grab a safe quarter turn 1 while trying to move into position ready to grab the 2 quarters on the other half of the table turns 2-4, then have turn 5 for cleaning up your half of the board.

Funny. I zoned out and reversed the Phase order That´s a T2 possibility then. Mea Culpa!

There´s other ways to solve this T1 than Warptime though. Forward Operatives moves the Raptors 12" up and then a Normal Move.
***
On the rest of the Secondaries I believe Ritual is given as we have cheap durable Psykers and we want a scrum in the middle anyway. As Eldenfirefly wrote it´s the third that´s the issue and my go to atm is Grind them Down and let the MOP + Rune to add durability. Engage I just don´t like due to basically feeding the opponent units to waste.

Thoughts on Maulerfiend? I've run him twice and against a melee army he absolutely blends anything he touches, however against shooty stuff he is the first to die. I've included one and 2 VC in my BL list for an event at the weekend and keep thinking I've fallen into a bit of a bad choice, however I don't have any spare chosen or any possesed instead.
My only alternative is more legionnaires or some raptors which I don't think are worth it

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 Thariinye wrote:
Honestly you might not need to put the Daemon Weapon on the Lord Discordant, just put Flames of Spite on. Sure if we want the absolute most MWs out of a single model putting everything on the LD offensively is good, but we have to both keep the LD alive long enough as well as take into account that pre-game command points are at a premium. If we can get away with 'just' the offensive power of Flames of Spite, we can maybe burn one more point on a defensive relic like the Gorget of Eternal Hate for a 1+ save with AoC. I think Flames is probably a better choice for your single offensive point spend than the Daemon Weapon simply because you also get full wound rerolls to fish for 6s, and having that on a model with 14 base attacks is basically the best use of Flames of Spite there is. Though if there's a particularly good defensive WLT I can see going for the Daemon Weapon instead.

In addition, not having to take the Undivided Daemon Weapon lets us put a Mark on them. I think Slaanesh is one of the better ones these days because the 5+++ power is amazing on tougher models (though saving it for Black Rune Terminators/Chosen is probably better), but I can see the LD making good use of any of the Marks (Nurgle probably the most niche).

Ive been thinking this too. If you put all your buffs on the terms. All you doing is further discouraging your opponent to shoot at your terms, They dont avhe the greatest damage output so you really WANT your opponent to shoot at them.

Agreed, Black Rune is probably enough to make a lot of shooting inefficient against Terminators or Chosen. I'd still probably Mark them Slaanesh so that a nearby psyker can put up the 5+++ on them, but honestly more than that on them and it's likely that your opponent will start trying to ignore them instead of shooting at them. Having MoS on them at least gives them fights first in case they get charged so they can threaten the interrupt in a many-charge turn, and on Chosen you can also take the Icon to let them hit on 2+, so that's a meaningful offensive buff, and the 5+++ gives them some defense against mortal wounds. Have a big unit of either of those with just enough defensive buffs that it's inefficient to shoot at them, but which your opponent will really want to shoot at because it's protecting some combination of Abaddon/DP/LD/MoP, and that's probably the most efficient use of resources on them.

Why would you EVER take the Black Rune on Chosen though?

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Why would you EVER take the Black Rune on Chosen though?

I wouldn’t. I would/have put them in a transport and use the rune for a large unit that can’t like 10 terminators or possessed. I love it on big brick of possessed

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Why would you EVER take the Black Rune on Chosen though?

Art of War did a tier list for Chaos Space Marines and they controversially rated Chosen higher than Terminators. Their rational was that when you put the Black Rune on a unit of Chosen plus all the defensive buffs like Mutated invigoration and delightful agonies and illusionary supplication. At that point, since both Chosen and Terminators have 3W each, the same unit of chosen would be almost as hard to kill as the terminator unit while being 8 points cheaper per model.

Their reasoning was that the 1 additional saving throw that the terminators get and 2 more shots per model from their combi bolter doesn't warrant being 8 points higher per model, while Chosen also get 1 more inch of movement. They would rather save that at least 80 points (or more) by running a 10 man unit of Chosen instead of a 10 man unit of terminators, and then use the points saved elsewhere.

Its controversial, and there are plenty of people that disagree with this. Personally, I prefer 10 terminators myself over 10 chosen. But its does have some reasoning behind it.

People with experience will know targeting your terminator unit is a trap. When you have put so many defensive buffs onto one unit, they are not going to try and kill it. They know it would either be impossible, or it would take far far too much resources. (Plus don't forget we can heal and rez models too with our MOP from this unit). So, unless they literally can go into the unit with their entire army or most of it, they aren't even going to try.

Hence also the line of thinking about spreading out the defensive relics and buffs somewhat. So instead of making one unit of terminators impossible to kill. We spread out our defensive buffs and relics to make a few units hard to kill instead of one unkillable terminator unit.

The main benefits though are:
1. 2 extra shots at ALL ranges, which equates 4 shots at all ranges.
2. Deep Strike
3. 2+ with 5++
4. Not relegated to just Accursed Weapons (AKA Power Fists).

Chosen have so little going for them that Art Of War is completely wrong on that. There's just no real reasoning.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
The main benefits though are:
1. 2 extra shots at ALL ranges, which equates 4 shots at all ranges.
2. Deep Strike
3. 2+ with 5++
4. Not relegated to just Accursed Weapons (AKA Power Fists).

Chosen have so little going for them that Art Of War is completely wrong on that. There's just no real reasoning.

Yea that doesn’t add up what Art of War is saying I mean that ignores possessed existing which are already T5 also three wounds Same save as chosen one more attack with d2 and 9 inch move. You lose the bolters but who cares. And it would be 30 points more than chosen and 50 points cheaper than terminators

EviscerationPlague wrote:
The main benefits though are:
1. 2 extra shots at ALL ranges, which equates 4 shots at all ranges.
2. Deep Strike
3. 2+ with 5++
4. Not relegated to just Accursed Weapons (AKA Power Fists).

Chosen have so little going for them that Art Of War is completely wrong on that. There's just no real reasoning.

Bolters are bolters, the 5++ doesn't really come into play much, and power fists cost points.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
The main benefits though are:
1. 2 extra shots at ALL ranges, which equates 4 shots at all ranges.
2. Deep Strike
3. 2+ with 5++
4. Not relegated to just Accursed Weapons (AKA Power Fists).

Chosen have so little going for them that Art Of War is completely wrong on that. There's just no real reasoning.

Bolters are bolters, the 5++ doesn't really come into play much, and power fists cost points.

No gak Sherlock that Power Fists cost points. Still better than being perpetually stuck with Accursed Weapons.

I feel the Chosen/Termies debate is an interesting one. Though from what I've been hearing Termies don't really pull their weight all that well. They sure can survive but once they get in they kinda flail but aren't punching as hard as they should (Likely due to AOC being prevalent and even Power Fists losing out on their scare factor a bit).

But I suppose the idea of Chosen being Terminator-Lite isn't terrible either. I'd be interested in trying out both over a series of games just to see how well one fares over the other. Termies always feel like the safe bet due to their survivability even if you don't Power Fist them. But then at that point you might as well save the points and go for Chosen if you're going to stick yourself with Accursed Weapons...

Hmm. I do feel they both have their merits. Chosen could net you more bodies to sort of 'mitigate' the lack of saves, which is also appealing. Getting additional 3 wounds on the table per model (due to their point difference) isn't anything to stick my nose up at. Saturate instead of 'eggs in one basket' with the Termies.

Chosen can ride a Rhino and carry an Icon... Perhaps thats a bonus.

Vatsetis wrote:
Chosen can ride a Rhino and carry an Icon... Perhaps thats a bonus.

Honestly, a good point as well. Can help mitigate some weaknesses depending on what Icon they end up getting. Khorne can make them choppier, their Accursed Weapons being less flimsy against AOC but still not hitting all that hard with 1D weapons. Tzeentch doing the same but for shooting but their shooting isn't quite as strong as Termies. Nurgle getting auto wounds on their shooting is pretty solid. Slaanesh feeling the weaker of the lot but still netting +1 to hits can help ensure your swings are going to succeed in the first place. For 5 extra points it isn't the worst.

Ok so played day one of a GT today with black legion and I can safely say obliterators are absolutely terrible.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Ok so played day one of a GT today with black legion and I can safely say obliterators are absolutely terrible.

A shame...I still plan to run a squad of 3 because I just love the model too much. Even with high shots/exploding 6's they just aren't doing as much as we all thought, eh?

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Ok so played day one of a GT today with black legion and I can safely say obliterators are absolutely terrible.

My obliterators are doing better in melee than they are in shooting... lol But given we don't have that many good options for shooting ... I am still sort of sticking to them for now. Their infamous reputation alone makes my opponents target them (be it to charge them or to shoot them), and that's a good thing because they are hard to kill.

I had one game where three obliterators shot 9+3d3 shots of Str 7 damage 2 into a squad of 10 black templar sword brethren. I only killed one ? (Because they took the saves on models in cover). But when that same sword brethren squad charged into my obliterators, I interupted combat and fought first and 12 crushing fists attacks smashed half the squad! lol In the end, my obliterators won that fight! lol They are better at fighting than they are at shooting now. Its so weird.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Ok so played day one of a GT today with black legion and I can safely say obliterators are absolutely terrible.

My obliterators are doing better in melee than they are in shooting... lol But given we don't have that many good options for shooting ... I am still sort of sticking to them for now. Their infamous reputation alone makes my opponents target them (be it to charge them or to shoot them), and that's a good thing because they are hard to kill.

I had one game where three obliterators shot 9+3d3 shots of Str 7 damage 2 into a squad of 10 black templar sword brethren. I only killed one ? (Because they took the saves on models in cover). But when that same sword brethren squad charged into my obliterators, I interupted combat and fought first and 12 crushing fists attacks smashed half the squad! lol In the end, my obliterators won that fight! lol They are better at fighting than they are at shooting now. Its so weird.

They have become our distraction carnifex XD Welp, time to march them up the board and shoot the entire way. Or deep strike and slap some people around!

I'm honestly just picking behind enemy lines secondary and putting them and warp talons behind cover to get the points. If anyone attacks either squad they can fight well.

Obliterators being harder to buff since they're not CORE is part of that reason I wager. I still haven't used them yet.

Finished the event 2 win 3 losses. My list was BL with Abaddon and all the usual suspects. As previously stated the oblits are definitely getting dropped they are rubbish. 5 Havoc's sat at the back is more effective for sure.

Maulerfiend is a good unit but I think I'll drop him as well because he just can't be hidden and gets riddled with fire.
I think my list will change to make my squad of 5 chosen into a big blob of 8 or 9 , adding a MOE with Daemon Wesson and some Havoc's. Out goes the oblits and the Mauler. Once I get some possesed I'd consider dropping my warp talons as well even though they are good

What's your take on plague marines opposed to terminator/chosen discussion?

6 plague marines with maxed melee, flail, power fist & blade, bubotic axe, mace & axe, cleaver, blight launcher is quite point effective for what it does.

My current list has 5 termies, fists and chainfist, 5 chosen (slaanesh, icon), 6 (above) plague marines and they all do the same role, camp on forward objective and TBH they feel like same durability with around-about same points, but they hit harder.

On the oblits; they hit harder in melee, but are hard to shift with MoP nearby. Also trying lascannon havocs for some long range shooting and make a damage roll to a six strat. Yet to have use it in a game, but it's in my tool box to see whether it's usable.

Went 80-70 today with my Blood Angels against Death guard and plague marines felt point efficient even that I out played em. My opponent kept them in a rhino for 3 turns before taking em' out, but they are also hard to shift from cover with -1 dmg etc.

Xirax wrote:
What's your take on plague marines opposed to terminator/chosen discussion?

I don't have numbers for Chosen because I was running them on Termies/PM for my own list building theorycraft. Just using some raw mathhammer they are fairly close with plague marines being more efficient points per wound but lower raw output. So termies will cost you slightly more but will pack more damage into the same number of bodies (I was comparing 10 man squads).

Strictly based on melee
PM into MEQ: 14.42 Points per wound output.
Term into MEQ: 18.01 PPW

PM into TEQ: 19.07
Term into TEQ: 23.46

PM into T7 Veh: 21.84
Term into T7 Veh: 23.75

PM into T8 5++ Veh: 26.16
Term into T8 5++ Veh: 40

I am thinking about running a 10 man of each for different targets, though you might need a Rhino to get good use out of the PM and that isn't factored into the above numbers

 Warlawk wrote:

Xirax wrote:
What's your take on plague marines opposed to terminator/chosen discussion?

I don't have numbers for Chosen because I was running them on Termies/PM for my own list building theorycraft. Just using some raw mathhammer they are fairly close with plague marines being more efficient points per wound but lower raw output. So termies will cost you slightly more but will pack more damage into the same number of bodies (I was comparing 10 man squads).

Strictly based on melee
PM into MEQ: 14.42 Points per wound output.
Term into MEQ: 18.01 PPW

PM into TEQ: 19.07
Term into TEQ: 23.46

PM into T7 Veh: 21.84
Term into T7 Veh: 23.75

PM into T8 5++ Veh: 26.16
Term into T8 5++ Veh: 40

I am thinking about running a 10 man of each for different targets, though you might need a Rhino to get good use out of the PM and that isn't factored into the above numbers

What loadouts were you using for the calculations

10 termies with 6 Power Fists, 2 chain fists and two with accursed.
10 PM with 2 Cleavers, 2 flails and 2 Axe/Mace, Fist on the champion

I'm surprised even with the Cleavers how little they do then.

The numbers on comparing the Terminators to plague marines makes sense. Its 6 power fists and 2 chain fists. It stands to reason the close combat output would be a bit higher than 1 power fist, 2 plague cleavers, 2 flails and 2 maces on the plague marine side. However, its not significantly higher. Meanwhile, the 10 man plague marine squad cost 225 points, while that ten man termie squad with 2 chain fists and 6 power fists costs around 400 points.

Efficiency wise, its difficult to beat the plague marine squad. If you want something resilient for less points, getting a ten man plague marine squad instead of a ten man termie squad is sacrificing some resilience for costing much less points.

And the plague marine squad can bring the black rune of damnation as well. And since its core, it can receive all the defensive buffs you usually put on it, except for delightful agonies. Lack of delightful agonies can be offset by being able to -1 to hit with putrid miasma and transhuman using the strategem grandfatherly blessing.

The terminators are a great squad though, I've used them 7 or 8 times now and with Mark of slanesh for delightful agonies and the black rune they are incredibly durable. Even against Abaddon they managed to only lose a couple of models due to invuln saves and shrugs.

Gesundheit wrote:
Hi,

I am going to Play next week against a friend. I Play this List. If the Game is done the feedback will follow.

Spoiler:

HQ
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 95pts]
Selections: Chaos Undivided, Soultearer Portent
2x Dark Disciple
Selections: 2x Close combat weapon
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [10 PL, 190pts]
Selections: 3. Hatred Incarnate, Baleflamer, Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh, Techno-virus injector, Warlord
Master of Possession [6 PL, 105pts]
Selections: Chaos Undivided, Infernal Power, Warp Marked

Troops
Cultist Mob [2 PL, 50pts]
9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm
Selections: 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades
Cultist Champion
Autopistol and brutal assault weapon
Cultist Mob [2 PL, 50pts]
9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm
Selections: 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades
Cultist Champion
Autopistol and brutal assault weapon
Legionaries [13 PL, 200pts]
Selections: Chaos Icon, Mark of Khorne
Aspiring Champion
Selections: Astartes chainsword, Bolt pistol
9x Marine w/ astartes chainsword
Selections: 9x Astartes chainsword, 9x Bolt pistol, 9x Frag & Krak grenades
Legionaries [6 PL, 105pts]
Selections: Chaos Undivided
Aspiring Champion
Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
3x Marine w/ boltgun
Selections: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
Marine w/ heavy weapon
Selections: Lascannon
Legionaries [6 PL, 105pts]
Selections: Chaos Undivided
Aspiring Champion
Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
3x Marine w/ boltgun
Selections: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
Marine w/ heavy weapon
Selections: Lascannon

Elites
Helbrute [6 PL, 115pts]
Selections: Chaos Undivided, Heavy flamer, Helbrute fist, Power scourge
Possessed [14 PL, 196pts]
Selections: Possessed Champion
6x Possessed
Selections: 6x Hideous mutations

Fast Attack
Venomcrawler [6 PL, 105pts]
Warp Talons [7 PL, 140pts]
Selections: Warp Talon Champion
4x Warp Talon
Selections: 4x Warp claws
Warp Talons [7 PL, 140pts]
Selections: Warp Talon Champion
4x Warp Talon
Selections: 4x Warp claws

Heavy Support
Forgefiend [8 PL, 160pts]
Selections: 2x Heavy hades autocannons, Daemon jaws
Havocs [8 PL, 160pts, -1CP]
Selections: Mark of Tzeentch
Havoc Champion
Selections: Astartes chainsword, Black Rune of Damnation, Boltgun, Trophies of the Long War
4x Havoc w/ lascannon
Selections: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Lascannon

Dedicated Transport
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

Ofc it is Not maxed out or something like that, but it is my second Game with CSM since the new codex arrived. Thats why I am just testing stuff.
A little feedback would be awesome.

I like the
Inferno Tome for the priest. -

The bearer knows one additional prayer from the Prayers to the Dark Gods.
- Each time the bearer chants a prayer, if it is heard, the closest enemy unit within 18" of and visible to the bearer suffers D3 mortal wounds

With
Illusory Supplication

If this prayer is heard, select one friendly <LEGION> CORE, <LEGION> CULTISTS or <LEGION> CHARACTER unit within 6" of this PRIEST. Each time an attack is made against that unit:
- An unmodifed hit roll of 1-3 for that attack fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making the attack may have.
- That attack's hit roll cannot be re-rolled.

I would even let him babysit the havocs. Illusory Supplicant in your enemies turn warp sight plea in your own turn.

Warp-sight Plea If this prayer is heard, select one friendly <LEGION> CORE, <LEGION> CULTISTS or <LEGION> CHARACTER unit within 6" of this PRIEST. Each time a model in that unit makes a ranged attack, re-roll a hit roll of 1 and the target does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack.

I would let my MoP take Liber hereticus

That way he can cast 3 powers, so when you make him Slaneesh:
Delightful Agonies 6 18" Blessing: If manifested, select one friendly <LEGION> SLAANESH unit within 18" of this PSYKER. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, each time a model in that unit would lose a wound, roll one D6: on a 5+, that wound is not lost.


Otherwise smite.
And he gets
Liber Hereticus - In your Psychic phase, the bearer can attempt to manifest one additional power.
- Each time the bearer successfully manifests a psychic power, add 6" to the range of that power's effect. If that psychic power specifies multiple ranges (e.g. Gift of Chaos), this rule only affects the first range specified in that psychic power.

So all your demon buff auras increase to 12 inch!!!
Maybe I m wrong and you can't buff them, please correct me if I am wrong.

I also feel flames of spite much stronger than hatrec incarnated cuz reroll wounds in melee and mortals in melee and range. Discolord hits on 2s, so he hits very good already.

Flames of Spite - Each time this WARLORD makes a melee attack, you can re-roll the wound roll.
- Each time this WARLORD makes an attack, on an unmodified wound roll of 6, the target suffers one mortal wound in addition to any normal damage.

Edit:
I prefer that, as I sometimes get stuck in Combat with a bigger threat mostly hive tyrants or Björn the fellhanded and after 1 round of combat discolord needs the wound rerolls.

Which legion are you playing?