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Rivener wrote:
Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.

Noise Marines can do a lot of damage at range. Their new blast master is so much better than a lascannon. Its just 15 points and it has 2 profiles. The anti-tank profile is 48 inches range, Heavy 3, Str 8, AP 3, Damage 3. That is an extremely good long range anti-tank profile for just 15 points. And if you go 6 min 5 man squads of noise marines, you can have 6 of these blast masters. That's 18 shots at range 48 inches that do flat 3 damage each. Also its a sonic weapon, so if you get within half range (which is 24 inches for this), add 1 damage. So that's 4 damage at half range!!!

alright so Raptors here are sort of a bust? Any one legion really work with them CP-wise?

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Rivener wrote:
Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.

Noise Marines can do a lot of damage at range. Their new blast master is so much better than a lascannon. Its just 15 points and it has 2 profiles. The anti-tank profile is 48 inches range, Heavy 3, Str 8, AP 3, Damage 3. That is an extremely good long range anti-tank profile for just 15 points. And if you go 6 min 5 man squads of noise marines, you can have 6 of these blast masters. That's 18 shots at range 48 inches that do flat 3 damage each. Also its a sonic weapon, so if you get within half range (which is 24 inches for this), add 1 damage. So that's 4 damage at half range!!!

That’s 140 points though. Havocs are 5 more for four lascannons, or four chaincannons, along with T5, and they benefit from legion traits. Even at 12” the Havocs outperform against MEQ, so I can’t help but think noise marines are more of an “EC only” pick.

After trying out a couple of games all of which are in black legion, I notice there are a few traps in CSM. Don't fall into these, whether during the list building stage or during the game.

1. Don't try and build some mega buffed up legionaire squad. This simply isn't efficient. You will end up going to 10 men, and putting mark and icon, and end up spending 200 points on a unit that will only do half as a 200 point unit of Khorne berserkers, or Khorne Chosen, or Possessed. I don't care that legionaires have better strategem support, if you used a unit that was actually very good at its job, you wouldn't need to spend the CP anyway.

2. This brings me to my next point. In the new Nephilim world now, CP cannot be randomly wasted. 2CP strategems need to either get you a whole bunch of VP, or change the battle in a pivitol way, or at least help you delete a tough unit. Its not enough to help you hit (a little bit better), or kill 2 or 3 more models.

3. Against AOC, AP2 is a lot less powerful now. Consider this, I shot my 9 bike Tzeentch unit (admittedly without any support) at a 5 man intercessor squad in cover. I wasted 1 CP on the demon shell strategem and didn't even kill the squad. Because they were saving on 3s even against AP2. I should have done the math and just saved the CP. Bikes are now anti-armor (because armor doesn't get cover) or only good against stuff that AP2 reduces to a 4+ save. Do not shoot them into power armor in cover unless you are content to kill maybe 3 models with 36 shots.

4. Damage 2 is not that wonderful anymore. Look through your profiles. Dreadnaughts are popular these days. And some armies can -1 damage with strategems. And DG do it for their whole army. Don't over rely on damage 2 profiles. You will run into an army that literally halves your entire army's output and you will be sad.

5. Abaddon needs to be wielded with skill. He needs to get back his points or more. Be too cautious with him, and you wasted his 300 points and potential. Be too aggressive with him, and you lose him early because you thought he was invincible but he isn't.

6. Stop trying to make your list shoot well. Outside of a very few exceptions like maybe emperor's children noise marine spam, or a IW list, you will end up with a list that shoots only semi-well while you neglected what CSM actually does well now, which is Melee.

7. Mobility does matter. Don't build a pure melee army that only moves 6 inches a turn. Our secondaries don't really support that slow and steady march up the board style of play. In fact, if you like that style, honestly, DG does it much better because they have good DG secondaries for this and almost their entire army actually supports that style of play. If you won with this style of play, you would have won with even more VP playing a DG army.

8. Don't knock on transports. Related to point seven . Mobility matters. Transports not only protect your units inside, they give you a lot of mobility. (Just the disembark 3 inches extends your threat range by 3 inches). And its not just Rhinos, even our LR are usable now if you want terminator units to be mobile. In the AOC world we live in currently. A Rhino is no joke to kill. It has an effective 2+ sav against anything with AP1 or better, And it has smokescreen for -1 to hit. And frankly, does your opponent really want to kill something that is only 80 points and has already delivered the units within it 12 inches +d6 advance? (The contents will disembark out 3 inches) so in effect, the Rhino has already done it job.

9. Secondaries! Build your list with secondaires in mind. CSM does not have auto high score secondaries. You literally have to have a plan and to build your army specifically to help you score the secondaries you have in mind. Even if its to have an extra psyker solely to perform psychic secondary, or a min 5 legionaire squad you plan to yeet up the board in a Rhino to do actions for secondaries like "For the dark gods", or those 2 cultists mob squads you are prepared to pay 1 CP to put in strategic reserve, to come in and score RND.

Just sharing some traps in list building and matchplay that I learnt from playing some games since the codex dropped. Do share more "traps" if you have come across them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rivener wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Rivener wrote:
Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.

Noise Marines can do a lot of damage at range. Their new blast master is so much better than a lascannon.

That’s 140 points though. Havocs are 5 more for four lascannons, or four chaincannons, along with T5, and they benefit from legion traits. Even at 12” the Havocs outperform against MEQ, so I can’t help but think noise marines are more of an “EC only” pick.

Yes, if you are playing noise marines, you might as well go EC. Sadly. I mentioned this as one of the traps for CSM list building. Stop trying to build a super shooty army with CSM. Unfortunately, we simply aren't that shooty any more. You will end up with a semi-decent shooty army that neglected what it was actually good at - melee.

With sonic blasters and blastmasters they do.

A sonic blaster puts out 3 shots per model and is Ap-1 - yes, marines will ignore the latter but its d2 which is very scary for them. And the blastmaster is 6 shots and S5 ap-2.

Add in your ability to advance and fire without penalty and they're some of the best mobile small arms going.

The Dark Commune feels...um. so so. I mean: on the face of it it does the job of sorcerer and a dark apostle and (for cultists only) a chaos lord. So whilst it lacks the protection of CHARACTER status you get a lot for your points.
No character protection only puts you on a par with command squads.
My main issue is that s cultist hq seems like a bad investment when it's hard to build an effective cultist centric force due to mere mortals.

half of these points to me read more like a fundamental design failure being the change in core rules or faction design.

what an awesome dex....

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Nobody I know plays Nephilim (because it's hot garbage) but I'll have to look at the Nachmund rules again before I play. If you're indeed correct, that definitely blows.

Nephilim's great in a lot of ways to be honest -- I think a lot of people haven't given it a fair shake. The low CP meta works to the advantage of CSM as much as it works against them. It forces much more tactical play and makes every decision in the game much more important.... so it makes it easier to screw up your positioning and waste your precious 2 command points on something useless, sure. But it also rewards careful planning, efficient list-building and mastery of both the core rules and the rules in your codex.

That being said, man, it's made the learning curve for Chaos Space Marines really rough and getting familiar with the stratagems much slower than any codex which came out before since there is it's so much less merciful on you for screwing things up.... so I can understand the impulse to avoid it. Still, I think playing under the restrictions that Nephilim has is probably going to make you a better player of any faction in the end. It's a shake up to how the game has felt like for most of the edition certainly but there's definite positives to it. The CP management game just adds another tactical layer to the game -- and I like how it tends to reveal how much of a crutch stratagems are for certain armies (and how little they matters to others).

For the Emperor's Children, I think it opens up the use of non LOS shooting. EC ignore modifiers to hit and modifiers to BS.

There are, at least, a couple non LOS shooting units in there (Rapier Quad Launcher and Whirlwind Scorpius are two standouts to me).

Granted, I expect keywords to be updated like the previous codex releases.

 Sarigar wrote:
For the Emperor's Children, I think it opens up the use of non LOS shooting. EC ignore modifiers to hit and modifiers to BS.

At the very least it means your Noise Marines can always run and shoot without penalty and Power/Chain Fists, Thunder Hammers become much more attractive. Ironically, it makes Havocs a little less attractive, except from a points perspective, since the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons is gone also.

But, does it also mean non LOS shooting platforms are back to hitting on their original BS (3+ in these cases)?

 Sarigar wrote:
But, does it also mean non LOS shooting platforms are back to hitting on their original BS (3+ in these cases)?

Yes, I believe that would be the case, although CSM non-LOS options are somewhat lackluster, especially since most of them are Relic units that cost CP to include.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
But, does it also mean non LOS shooting platforms are back to hitting on their original BS (3+ in these cases)?

Yes, I believe that would be the case, although CSM non-LOS options are somewhat lackluster, especially since most of them are Relic units that cost CP to include.

The Whirlwind costs CP. The Rapier does not. I'll look into other options to see where they land. Not looking for a ton on non LOS shooting, but it has value. After the rule update, I saw non LOS shooting removedfrom lists and opponents taking advantage of it as a result. Putting some back into a list may have added flexibility.

Rivener wrote:
That’s 140 points though. Havocs are 5 more for four lascannons, or four chaincannons, along with T5, and they benefit from legion traits. Even at 12” the Havocs outperform against MEQ, so I can’t help but think noise marines are more of an “EC only” pick.

I'm leaning towards Slaanesh havocs to spike a 6 with a lascannon.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
After trying out a couple of games all of which are in black legion, I notice there are a few traps in CSM. Don't fall into these, whether during the list building stage or during the game.

1. Don't try and build some mega buffed up legionaire squad. This simply isn't efficient. You will end up going to 10 men, and putting mark and icon, and end up spending 200 points on a unit that will only do half as a 200 point unit of Khorne berserkers, or Khorne Chosen, or Possessed. I don't care that legionaires have better strategem support, if you used a unit that was actually very good at its job, you wouldn't need to spend the CP anyway.

2. This brings me to my next point. In the new Nephilim world now, CP cannot be randomly wasted. 2CP strategems need to either get you a whole bunch of VP, or change the battle in a pivitol way, or at least help you delete a tough unit. Its not enough to help you hit (a little bit better), or kill 2 or 3 more models.

3. Against AOC, AP2 is a lot less powerful now. Consider this, I shot my 9 bike Tzeentch unit (admittedly without any support) at a 5 man intercessor squad in cover. I wasted 1 CP on the demon shell strategem and didn't even kill the squad. Because they were saving on 3s even against AP2. I should have done the math and just saved the CP. Bikes are now anti-armor (because armor doesn't get cover) or only good against stuff that AP2 reduces to a 4+ save. Do not shoot them into power armor in cover unless you are content to kill maybe 3 models with 36 shots.

4. Damage 2 is not that wonderful anymore. Look through your profiles. Dreadnaughts are popular these days. And some armies can -1 damage with strategems. And DG do it for their whole army. Don't over rely on damage 2 profiles. You will run into an army that literally halves your entire army's output and you will be sad.

5. Abaddon needs to be wielded with skill. He needs to get back his points or more. Be too cautious with him, and you wasted his 300 points and potential. Be too aggressive with him, and you lose him early because you thought he was invincible but he isn't.

6. Stop trying to make your list shoot well. Outside of a very few exceptions like maybe emperor's children noise marine spam, or a IW list, you will end up with a list that shoots only semi-well while you neglected what CSM actually does well now, which is Melee.

7. Mobility does matter. Don't build a pure melee army that only moves 6 inches a turn. Our secondaries don't really support that slow and steady march up the board style of play. In fact, if you like that style, honestly, DG does it much better because they have good DG secondaries for this and almost their entire army actually supports that style of play. If you won with this style of play, you would have won with even more VP playing a DG army.

8. Don't knock on transports. Related to point seven . Mobility matters. Transports not only protect your units inside, they give you a lot of mobility. (Just the disembark 3 inches extends your threat range by 3 inches). And its not just Rhinos, even our LR are usable now if you want terminator units to be mobile. In the AOC world we live in currently. A Rhino is no joke to kill. It has an effective 2+ sav against anything with AP1 or better, And it has smokescreen for -1 to hit. And frankly, does your opponent really want to kill something that is only 80 points and has already delivered the units within it 12 inches +d6 advance? (The contents will disembark out 3 inches) so in effect, the Rhino has already done it job.

9. Secondaries! Build your list with secondaires in mind. CSM does not have auto high score secondaries. You literally have to have a plan and to build your army specifically to help you score the secondaries you have in mind. Even if its to have an extra psyker solely to perform psychic secondary, or a min 5 legionaire squad you plan to yeet up the board in a Rhino to do actions for secondaries like "For the dark gods", or those 2 cultists mob squads you are prepared to pay 1 CP to put in strategic reserve, to come in and score RND.

Just sharing some traps in list building and matchplay that I learnt from playing some games since the codex dropped. Do share more "traps" if you have come across them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rivener wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Rivener wrote:
Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.

Noise Marines can do a lot of damage at range. Their new blast master is so much better than a lascannon.

That’s 140 points though. Havocs are 5 more for four lascannons, or four chaincannons, along with T5, and they benefit from legion traits. Even at 12” the Havocs outperform against MEQ, so I can’t help but think noise marines are more of an “EC only” pick.

Yes, if you are playing noise marines, you might as well go EC. Sadly. I mentioned this as one of the traps for CSM list building. Stop trying to build a super shooty army with CSM. Unfortunately, we simply aren't that shooty any more. You will end up with a semi-decent shooty army that neglected what it was actually good at - melee.

half of these points to me read more like a fundamental design failure being the change in core rules or faction design.

what an awesome dex....

If we were to distill them --

1. Large squads Legionaries might not be efficient
2. CP management is difficult and having a plan for it is essential
3. Marines are durable
4. Damage 2 is situationally useful ( as might a D3 weapon be situationally useful against a W4 model )
5. Abaddon isn't a 'I win' button
6. Making a shooting list requires careful consideration
7. Mobility is important
8. Transports are useful
9. Have a plan on how your army scores

None of those read as fundamental design failure except perhaps #1, but that's debatable.

I'd probably only disagree with 9 as the CSM secondaries are difficult to build around effectively.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
After trying out a couple of games all of which are in black legion, I notice there are a few traps in CSM. Don't fall into these, whether during the list building stage or during the game.

1. Don't try and build some mega buffed up legionaire squad. This simply isn't efficient. You will end up going to 10 men, and putting mark and icon, and end up spending 200 points on a unit that will only do half as a 200 point unit of Khorne berserkers, or Khorne Chosen, or Possessed. I don't care that legionaires have better strategem support, if you used a unit that was actually very good at its job, you wouldn't need to spend the CP anyway.

2. This brings me to my next point. In the new Nephilim world now, CP cannot be randomly wasted. 2CP strategems need to either get you a whole bunch of VP, or change the battle in a pivitol way, or at least help you delete a tough unit. Its not enough to help you hit (a little bit better), or kill 2 or 3 more models.

3. Against AOC, AP2 is a lot less powerful now. Consider this, I shot my 9 bike Tzeentch unit (admittedly without any support) at a 5 man intercessor squad in cover. I wasted 1 CP on the demon shell strategem and didn't even kill the squad. Because they were saving on 3s even against AP2. I should have done the math and just saved the CP. Bikes are now anti-armor (because armor doesn't get cover) or only good against stuff that AP2 reduces to a 4+ save. Do not shoot them into power armor in cover unless you are content to kill maybe 3 models with 36 shots.

4. Damage 2 is not that wonderful anymore. Look through your profiles. Dreadnaughts are popular these days. And some armies can -1 damage with strategems. And DG do it for their whole army. Don't over rely on damage 2 profiles. You will run into an army that literally halves your entire army's output and you will be sad.

5. Abaddon needs to be wielded with skill. He needs to get back his points or more. Be too cautious with him, and you wasted his 300 points and potential. Be too aggressive with him, and you lose him early because you thought he was invincible but he isn't.

6. Stop trying to make your list shoot well. Outside of a very few exceptions like maybe emperor's children noise marine spam, or a IW list, you will end up with a list that shoots only semi-well while you neglected what CSM actually does well now, which is Melee.

7. Mobility does matter. Don't build a pure melee army that only moves 6 inches a turn. Our secondaries don't really support that slow and steady march up the board style of play. In fact, if you like that style, honestly, DG does it much better because they have good DG secondaries for this and almost their entire army actually supports that style of play. If you won with this style of play, you would have won with even more VP playing a DG army.

8. Don't knock on transports. Related to point seven . Mobility matters. Transports not only protect your units inside, they give you a lot of mobility. (Just the disembark 3 inches extends your threat range by 3 inches). And its not just Rhinos, even our LR are usable now if you want terminator units to be mobile. In the AOC world we live in currently. A Rhino is no joke to kill. It has an effective 2+ sav against anything with AP1 or better, And it has smokescreen for -1 to hit. And frankly, does your opponent really want to kill something that is only 80 points and has already delivered the units within it 12 inches +d6 advance? (The contents will disembark out 3 inches) so in effect, the Rhino has already done it job.

9. Secondaries! Build your list with secondaires in mind. CSM does not have auto high score secondaries. You literally have to have a plan and to build your army specifically to help you score the secondaries you have in mind. Even if its to have an extra psyker solely to perform psychic secondary, or a min 5 legionaire squad you plan to yeet up the board in a Rhino to do actions for secondaries like "For the dark gods", or those 2 cultists mob squads you are prepared to pay 1 CP to put in strategic reserve, to come in and score RND.

Just sharing some traps in list building and matchplay that I learnt from playing some games since the codex dropped. Do share more "traps" if you have come across them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rivener wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Rivener wrote:
Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.

Noise Marines can do a lot of damage at range. Their new blast master is so much better than a lascannon.

That’s 140 points though. Havocs are 5 more for four lascannons, or four chaincannons, along with T5, and they benefit from legion traits. Even at 12” the Havocs outperform against MEQ, so I can’t help but think noise marines are more of an “EC only” pick.

Yes, if you are playing noise marines, you might as well go EC. Sadly. I mentioned this as one of the traps for CSM list building. Stop trying to build a super shooty army with CSM. Unfortunately, we simply aren't that shooty any more. You will end up with a semi-decent shooty army that neglected what it was actually good at - melee.

half of these points to me read more like a fundamental design failure being the change in core rules or faction design.

what an awesome dex....

If we were to distill them --

1. Large squads Legionaries might not be efficient

Ineefective unit is innefective by unit design. See lack of specailisation, still available double shooting probably to blame for that.

2. CP management is difficult and having a plan for it is essential

Yeah, memeber when at the start of this edition trainwreck we were supposed to have more CP not less? Oh wait maybee stratagems and free upgrades were an issue , he let's MAKE A CODEX that PLAYS ARROUND CP AND UPGRADES and CUT CP EVEN MORE.

3. Marines are durable

No gak, you know what is also funny, AOC being a thing due to AP creep all over this edition. Congrats we are just in the phase were Defense of some factions is better than the offense of others... no , that ain't a fundamental flaw nope, NOT AT ALL..

4. Damage 2 is situationally useful ( as might a D3 weapon be situationally useful against a W4 model )
5. Abaddon isn't a 'I win' button
6. Making a shooting list requires careful consideration

That sounded more like if you like x legion, and played shooty, get fethed.

7. Mobility is important
8. Transports are useful

No gak, maybee because the board is so small and rhinos still overpriced we will see the codex still suck
9. Have a plan on how your army scores

None of those read as fundamental design failure except perhaps #1, but that's debatable.

I'd probably only disagree with 9 as the CSM secondaries are difficult to build around effectively.

locarno24 wrote:
With sonic blasters and blastmasters they do.

A sonic blaster puts out 3 shots per model and is Ap-1 - yes, marines will ignore the latter but its d2 which is very scary for them. And the blastmaster is 6 shots and S5 ap-2.

Add in your ability to advance and fire without penalty and they're some of the best mobile small arms going.

The Dark Commune feels...um. so so. I mean: on the face of it it does the job of sorcerer and a dark apostle and (for cultists only) a chaos lord. So whilst it lacks the protection of CHARACTER status you get a lot for your points.
No character protection only puts you on a par with command squads.
My main issue is that s cultist hq seems like a bad investment when it's hard to build an effective cultist centric force due to mere mortals.

I believe that so long as at least ONE model has the Character Keyword, the whole unit benefits from Look Out Sir.
Not 100% sure, since I don't have my rulebook with me, but I think that's how it works.

Rivener wrote:
Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.

In Emperor's Children they're troops so you can 4-6 MSU Blastmater squads for 120 pts, and since they already have the mark you don't need to pay for it. So each only is cheaper and has nearly the power of a Havoc Squad and can still move and shoot. With 48" range its pretty easy to get within half range for 4 damage, now imagine getting hit with coordinated fire from 3-6 at the same time that potentially 54-72 damage at the top end not counting Let the Galaxy Burn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

kerbarian wrote:
I really want to like Helbrutes and they’re not bad, but Venomcrawlers do basically all the same things and are twice as fast.

Venomcrawlers are cheaper, for sure, the psyker bonus is nice, and their melee/shooting is pretty solid. They need an MoP and/or an LD to really shine I think.

Helbrutes are Core, so they can get Marks, between those two things it opens them up for a lot of active and passive buff options. Not sure Helbrutes are better, but I have them already, want to experiment with them. With fists/flamers they're 6 attacks, always strike first, get 2d6+4 Heavy Flamer shots, even in melee. Core/Mark also opens up a few additional stratagems for them also, situational, but possibly useful.

We'll see.

I still field my Legends Sonic Helbrutes and well...they are brutal with a 2+ save from Benedition of Darkness, 5+++ save from Delightful Agonies from a MOP, with AOC, and -1 damage. That's 4X Blastmasters, 2X Doom Sirens and your choise of melee arm for 260 pts! Then when they actually do some actual damage they re-roll 1's to wound; and can shoot them back in their shooting phase with Fire Frenzy for 1CP.

Help a guy spend, or not spend, his money please. Is there any value in picking up a Kytan for my embryonic World Eaters army? Anything in the new codex that could help that model out, or do I just get a close combat chaos knight (not so exciting?).
Cheers

KirvesUK wrote:
Help a guy spend, or not spend, his money please. Is there any value in picking up a Kytan for my embryonic World Eaters army? Anything in the new codex that could help that model out, or do I just get a close combat chaos knight (not so exciting?).
Cheers

Hmmm... well, a warp smith can heal it d3 per turn. So with its natural regen, that's D3+1 wounds back each turn. Warpsmith can also give it +1 to hit, so you can save the CP for daemonforge. A master of possession can cast the psychic mutated invigoration to increase its toughness to T9 and the same MOP can also cast cursed earth to give it a 4++ invul save. So yeah, you can get a ton of support on your Kytan with the new codex.

Just one consideration though. Both those support characters can only move 6 inches. They might have trouble keeping up with your Kytan after turn 1, especially if your Kytan charges something. Oh, I just realised you mentioned world eaters.... so scratch the MOP.

Well, a Kytan costs zero CP for you to bring in your world Eaters. While a chaos knight is going to cost you 3CP. 3 CP is a huge consideration these days in matchplay. So... bring a Kytan. Its more fluffy and that 3 CP saved is going to help you in many more ways.

Actually, 3 Maulerfiends cost the same points as a Kytan and are probably better. More tactically flexible and they are really mean in close combat now.

I am finding it hard to build a list and not put a land raider in it. I have been really happy with they way it has preformed in my games so far. I haven't really faced any major shooting armies like Tau or Admec. Anyone have experience with the land raider against heavy shooting armies?

I think this is a very excellent interview of a guy who has spent many hours and games playing a CSM army against strong players in the Nephilim environment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O6FPW8xk44&ab_channel=FrontlineGamingNetwork

This is really very good stuff. What he says may not work for every legion, but quite a lot of it is generic enough that it works for a lot of the legions. He is able to make Alpha legion (which a lot of people didn't think was the strongest legions) work super well. And a lot of the strategies and tactics he pointed out can work towards other legions too and he said as much because the datasheets are good enough.

He has tried the list into the feared Necrons, Eldar hail of doom, etc. While some of the stuff are Alpha legion specific, I am sure other legions bring other things to the table as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xeen wrote:
I am finding it hard to build a list and not put a land raider in it. I have been really happy with they way it has preformed in my games so far. I haven't really faced any major shooting armies like Tau or Admec. Anyone have experience with the land raider against heavy shooting armies?

Have tried the LR and its really tanky. Honestly, a lot of shooting armies will have problems with it. Only very specific shooting armies like Tau bringing lots of railguns and Admec laschickens might have a better time against it. The rest will find it extremely difficult to kill a LR by shooting. I actually think the more likely way people try and kill a LR is to just punch it to death with a high Str melee weapon. Dreadnaughts are popular these days and they have the Strength in their fists to wound even a LR on 3s.

I honestly wouldn't worry about Tau or Admech, unless you face a ton of them in your local meta. I mean like, why cut out a LR if you are having so much fun with it and it is pulling its weight just because two out of 18 or 20 possible codexes might be good against it? lol No unit is gonna be good against everything in the game. Theoratically, you can hide your LR behind obscuring terrain, then use the MOP to buff it to T10 before rushing it forward. At that point, even Laschickens are wounding it on 5s.

Yea it hasn’t even been bracketed yet in the 5 games I used it. Melta and plasma just don’t hurt it. An opponent really needs to have actual AT weapons to really threaten it.

Yea I had one opponent tag it but the new LC are good at clearing all but hoards off of it even in combat.

Rivener wrote:
Noise Marines don’t actually do that much damage at range though, do they? Maybe there’s some combo there I’m missing.

Speaking of which, I don’t get the Dark Commune. Seems that only the priest is a character, so in terms of price you’re getting a limited priest, an effortless to kill psyker, and some random dudes that’ll die to bolters. With only three HQ slots and over a dozen spells and prayers to use, that feels kind of silly.

All sonic weapons get +1 damage if they are in half range. Blastmaster is Heavy 3 S8 -3 3D.

The dark commune unit can benefit from look out sird. So for 100 points you get unit that can chant 1 of 3 prayers AND cast 1 of 3 powers. Im sure theres a role for it in someones list. If you only are interested in the 1 of the first 3 powers/chants for your list you can get access to both for a discount of 100pts.

Downside is you cant mark them so you dont get a dark gods power/chant. and you get a pretty poor statline. But again for 100 points you can cast 1 power and 1 chant of the first 3. Im assuming majority of the time you gonna want Prescience and the Light cover chant. Unsure if really worth it, I think in a pinch if you need another psyker but also want access to a priest.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I think this is a very excellent interview of a guy who has spent many hours and games playing a CSM army against strong players in the Nephilim environment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O6FPW8xk44&ab_channel=FrontlineGamingNetwork

This is really very good stuff. What he says may not work for every legion, but quite a lot of it is generic enough that it works for a lot of the legions. He is able to make Alpha legion (which a lot of people didn't think was the strongest legions) work super well. And a lot of the strategies and tactics he pointed out can work towards other legions too and he said as much because the datasheets are good enough.

He has tried the list into the feared Necrons, Eldar hail of doom, etc. While some of the stuff are Alpha legion specific, I am sure other legions bring other things to the table as well.


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 xeen wrote:
I am finding it hard to build a list and not put a land raider in it. I have been really happy with they way it has preformed in my games so far. I haven't really faced any major shooting armies like Tau or Admec. Anyone have experience with the land raider against heavy shooting armies?

Have tried the LR and its really tanky. Honestly, a lot of shooting armies will have problems with it. Only very specific shooting armies like Tau bringing lots of railguns and Admec laschickens might have a better time against it. The rest will find it extremely difficult to kill a LR by shooting. I actually think the more likely way people try and kill a LR is to just punch it to death with a high Str melee weapon. Dreadnaughts are popular these days and they have the Strength in their fists to wound even a LR on 3s.

I honestly wouldn't worry about Tau or Admech, unless you face a ton of them in your local meta. I mean like, why cut out a LR if you are having so much fun with it and it is pulling its weight just because two out of 18 or 20 possible codexes might be good against it? lol No unit is gonna be good against everything in the game. Theoratically, you can hide your LR behind obscuring terrain, then use the MOP to buff it to T10 before rushing it forward. At that point, even Laschickens are wounding it on 5s.

But why does it matter if it'll only be wounded on 5s if it's still just 4 Lascannon shots (yes it has minimum damage and no I don't care) and the TL Heavy Bolter you're paying for? It doesn't matter what else you add to it when the model is still 250+ points and that's all you get. Just a few points more is 3 Obliterators or pay 80 more for two Forgefiends or Predators or either type with Lascanon Sponsons. Less worry about bracketing (which is not hard to do even if you spend time to bring it to T10 for whatever reason, since that's not going to affect a lot of weapons) and more ground covered.

I legit cannot figure out why some players are clamoring about the Land Raider.

Well, its also the transport capacity. Mobility is very important now. Being able to transport stuff and keep it protected up the board is a big deal. Especially when you disembark 3 inches, so that extends your threat range by 3 inches. You can transport terminators, killy power armored dudes, or even Abaddon himself in a LR up the board.

And even the shooting. While one turn of 4 soulshatter cannons and twin heavy bolters isn't much. But if your LR survived the full game (because nobody bothers to shoot it), then that's 5 rounds of shooting. Then over the course of the whole game, it adds up to 20 shots of soul shatter lascannons and 30 shots of heavy autobolters.

Any other heavy support else might have problems surviving one or two turns, in which case their damage output is a lot less.

I am not saying LR is an autotake. Its not. But it has its merits.

I mean, a possible comparision would be a LR vs two Plague Burst Crawlers. The damage output is kinda similar (4 entropy cannons vs 4 soul shatter cannon shots), and both sides are very tanky vehicles that a lot of opponents won't waste too much effort shooting at unless they have the guns for it. Lots of DG lists still bring two PBCs for some anti-tank. A LR just happens to double up as a transport as well.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
The dark commune unit can benefit from look out sird. So for 100 points you get unit that can chant 1 of 3 prayers AND cast 1 of 3 powers. Im sure theres a role for it in someones list. If you only are interested in the 1 of the first 3 powers/chants for your list you can get access to both for a discount of 100pts.

Downside is you cant mark them so you dont get a dark gods power/chant. and you get a pretty poor statline. But again for 100 points you can cast 1 power and 1 chant of the first 3. Im assuming majority of the time you gonna want Prescience and the Light cover chant. Unsure if really worth it, I think in a pinch if you need another psyker but also want access to a priest.

Only one model has the character keyword. Is there an FAQ that lets the whole unit hide?

They're definitely interesting to lean into cultist blobs.

Models cannot target a unit that contains any CHARACTER models with a Wounds characteristic of 9 or less with a ranged weapon while that CHARACTER unit is within 3" of any of the following:

blabla yaddayadda

Dark Commune should be fine.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, its also the transport capacity. Mobility is very important now. Being able to transport stuff and keep it protected up the board is a big deal. Especially when you disembark 3 inches, so that extends your threat range by 3 inches. You can transport terminators, killy power armored dudes, or even Abaddon himself in a LR up the board.

And even the shooting. While one turn of 4 soulshatter cannons and twin heavy bolters isn't much. But if your LR survived the full game (because nobody bothers to shoot it), then that's 5 rounds of shooting. Then over the course of the whole game, it adds up to 20 shots of soul shatter lascannons and 30 shots of heavy autobolters.

Any other heavy support else might have problems surviving one or two turns, in which case their damage output is a lot less.

I am not saying LR is an autotake. Its not. But it has its merits.

I mean, a possible comparision would be a LR vs two Plague Burst Crawlers. The damage output is kinda similar (4 entropy cannons vs 4 soul shatter cannon shots), and both sides are very tanky vehicles that a lot of opponents won't waste too much effort shooting at unless they have the guns for it. Lots of DG lists still bring two PBCs for some anti-tank. A LR just happens to double up as a transport as well.

I too am excited at the prospect of the LR but do agree that it is a meta pick for sure. I feel like having something worth putting in the LR, maybe like 2x5 noise marines that you wanna shove up the board or maybe havocs. Maybe even Zerkers now or after they get the dex. 3 LRs full of zerkers sounds kina fun lol, Thats alot of points but luckily the dex is full of really efficient MSU units.

3 LRs
3 Zerkers/10 CSM with Khorne Icons
3 Crawlers
2-3 Characters
Whatever else you can squeeze in lol

I don't see any significant changes to the land raider. It's still a multi purpose platform that pays for all it's potential. We're better off with a rhino and a dedicated shooting unit.
I'll try it anyway once again since I have a heavily converted rogue trader era model but I'm not expecting much different from every other edition.

Can someone maybe share experience with legionaries? I have 30 on sprue and simply cannot decide how to assemble them. 10 are fixed from the old SC, 10 are the normal kit and 10 are the new with the book and reaper cannon sprue.

I really like the idea of playing them as ref corsairs, maybe using 5-10 with Mark of Khorne, great axe and fist or deamon blade on Vet. I also like the idea of redundant psykers in some units. 5-10 Legionaries with Mark of Tzeentch and a Heavy Bolter and Book sound like a choice for ranged rupport. With bits from my old AoS Khorne force I could convert some to Khorne Berserkers, but to be honest I do not see the point why to pick Berzerkers over Legionaries with Mark as they cost more but have no access to fight twice or special weapon options.

Has anyone some advice?