Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition)

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**IwinUlose**

EightFoldPath wrote:
I've been noticing your posts for a while.

I feel the strategic error you seem to make over and over again in your posts is you have a singular path and plan for each unit in your army and it seems your army as a whole.

I ran a MoP and a Terminator Sorcerer in my most recent games. The MoP had Mutated Invigoration and Pact of Flesh and the Sorcerer had Diabolic Strength and Warptime.

At no point in my list building and strategic planning were those spells "allocated" to a specific unit for the battle. Instead I had multiple plans for each spell.

So for Pact of Flesh, it could go on the 10 Possessed with the Black Rune, or it could go on 5 Chosen out of reserves to get a shorter charge, or it could go on Abaddon to make him functionally unkillable in some scenarios. But, it also sometimes went on a Havoc squad to get a single Lascannon or Chaincannon back. Bringing back a 30 point Havoc model isn't as cool as bringing back a 90 point Obliterator, but even if you just bring back 5 Havocs in a game and nothing else, you've gained 150 points of value from your MoP who costs less than 150 points and who has cast a second spell each turn as well.

Now, the interesting thing about the units listed (Possessed, Chosen, Abaddon, Havocs) is that all of them can also get some use out of Mutated Invigoration, Diabolic Strength and Warptime.

So on a specific turn I might cast Mutated Invigoration to make Khorne Chosen S7 instead of S6 and then hide the tanky Possessed brick out of LOS so they don't need the +1T. Or I might drop Diabloic Strength on a Havoc Champion (with a 5 point weapon) so he can clear out an infiltrating unit in combat.

So, with hopefully a new found understanding that you don't just bring a MoP with Cursed Earth and Master of the Union for a singular purpose and plan, the answer to your question is...

It can be good to bring Cursed Earth if you are taking a brick of 10 Possessed with the Black Rune and are finding you need to stand out in the open and survive for a turn. Going from a 5++ to a 4++ against an AP2 D3 weapon is a good jump in survivability.

But you have identified the weakness, in that once your Possessed run off they will be out of range.

However, if you for example Cursed Earth near your Possessed turn 1~2 and then Cursed Earth near something else turn 3~5 or even cast smite instead, you may still get value from it in the game. Think about it this way, Pact of Flesh brings back 1 Possessed per turn. If you make 6 saves against a D3 AP2 attack for just one turn, the 4++ will 'bring back' 1 Possessed as well. If you make 12 saves, it brings back 2. Combining with Pact of Flesh, the difference could be between taking 12 saves, losing 8 and Fleshing back 1 to give a squad of 3 and taking 12 saves, losing 6 and Fleshing back 1 to give a squad of 5. A squad of 3 doesn't feel like it will do much, while a squad of 5 feels like it could go off and do something useful on the next turn. Although this example is reminding me of why cowering behind walls is the best plan in most situations.

So make sure you have secondary units that can benefit from the Cursed Earth later in the game. Obliterators coming in turn 2/3 in to the space vacated by the Possessed are an option and have late game synergy with a MoP with Pact of Flesh. Venomcrawlers that aren't running forward too early are also an option and also have early and late game synergy with the MoP in other ways.

Similarly have secondary units that can benefit from Master of the Union. So make sure you have some 5 man Possessed/Warp Talons who hide early in the game, move near the MoP in the mid game, then get the buff and move out in the late game.

Finally, I do have to ask this about the plethora of posts you keep making with so many list designs. Are you actually playtesting any of these lists? Playing 40k is an important part of the game in my opinion.

Thanks for some information. 1. I don’t see anyone listing WB lists so I’m putting suggestion out there that can inspire creativity for lists over the standard 10 terminators MoS black rune damnation Dark Apostle MoS Master Possession MoS hold mid. The MoP casting cursed earth on Oblits to hold mid would give it to mop oblits and venom. Also gives charged protection. If you pick mutated it can be cast on anyone unit in range. If you cast warp marked on an enemy, it gives oblits and possessed and venom a buff so it is multi functional. These lists don’t mean to be strict but to give thoughts for people to keep or change and make better

**Slipspace**

IwinUlose wrote:

Thanks for some information. 1. I don’t see anyone listing WB lists so I’m putting suggestion out there that can inspire creativity for lists over the standard 10 terminators MoS black rune damnation Dark Apostle MoS Master Possession MoS hold mid. The MoP casting cursed earth on Oblits to hold mid would give it to mop oblits and venom. Also gives charged protection. If you pick mutated it can be cast on anyone unit in range. If you cast warp marked on an enemy, it gives oblits and possessed and venom a buff so it is multi functional. These lists don’t mean to be strict but to give thoughts for people to keep or change and make better

Which is fine, up to a point. The problem is, the options you list as being standard and uncreative are that way for a reason. They work, and have been shown to work. Many of your suggestions aren't really all that thought-provoking or inspiring because they come across as untested theorycrafting, which is very easy to dismiss. It would be much more effective if you could give us some examples of real-world applications of these ideas through your own experiences in-game. That way there's something concrete to discuss. It also means you can determine for yourself whether these different approaches are actually any good before brining them up. Without the backing of any testing I tend to dismiss a lot of these ideas because they just don't seem workable given my experiences playing with and against CSM.

For example, you mention 3 Oblits plus a MoP working together to hold the midfield. The problem here is that Terminators, Possessed or Chosen with the Black Rune are all more effective at that job than Oblits (which you can see from the army lists that tend to do well for CSM). So you need to give solid reasons why this approach is better than the standard one. Additionally, no competitive CSM lists have included units of 3 Oblits in recent memory. Some have units of 1 or 2, but that's usually for DS deployment, especially if it can get you BEL points with the recent improvement to that secondary in AoO. That means you need to work extra hard to justify using that sort of unit in your army. For context, 3 Oblits cost the same as 10 Chosen with a Mark. Is your suggestion for the Oblits better than taking the 10 Chosen? If so, why? If not, why not?

I don't want to discourage you from continuing to explore new strategies and builds, but I think you might get improved interactions if you had more concrete examples to work with, rather than an endless stream of "will this very specific combination of things work"?

**Kangarupe**

Cautionary tale: put your terminators more than 36 inches away from Blood Angel death company -or- put some pin cushions in front of your terminator brick. aka cultists as a roadblock.

Lost turn 1 roll, whirlwind disabled overwatch, 5 man DC charged me turn 1 using the pre-game move strat and wiped out the entire unbuffed slaanesh unit with hammers (they were buffed to the hilt too)... I was very le sad, lesson learned.

**EviscerationPlague**

Imma have to ask how those Death Company were armed.

**EightFoldPath**

It will be 5 Thunder Hammers for 175 points.

The basic maths is:
5 x (2 + 1 + 1) + 1 = 21 attacks
3s to hit re-rolling all = 18.67 hits
2s to wound = 15.56 wounds
5s to save = 10.37 dead termies

The buffs are:
Dante hit re-rolls
Death Company Apothecary puts them into assault doctrine for +1A and +1AP
Death Company Ancient +1 to hit
Chapter tactic already gives +1 to wound

The buffs on the Slaanesh termies are:
-1 to wound thanks to Black Rune
Nothing else because they went first

Kangrupa that is a lesson learned in blood and one I have also experienced. Teaches you to always ask questions like "can you do a pre-game move" and "how many sources of D3+ do you have"?

**EviscerationPlague**

Nurgle would've actually been a direct counter. It'd make the TH wound on a 3+ instead.

**Kangarupe**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Imma have to ask how those Death Company were armed.

Eight folds’s explanation is very damn close. He runs 4x hammer and 1x sword, and the buffs came from slightly different places but yeah, same deadly effect. (Captain giving the hit re-rolls, unleash rage from psyker for exploding 6s)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Nurgle would've actually been a direct counter. It'd make the TH wound on a 3+ instead.

Sure, you’re not wrong. But by choosing the MoN you’re sacrificing your ability to cast Delightful Agonies for the 5+ feel no pain. I don’t think strategically that would be the best choice.

As I said, dumping 50 points of cultists down as a meat wall would be better. Not to mention, if they don’t get killed round 1, maybe they can squeeze of an action or snag an objective …something ??‍♂️

**Samii**

Hi all,

Played a test 'mirror match' against a IH successor-optimized list. I say 'mirror' because so many of the elements line up:

SS Terminators = Chosen
WL Contemptor = Contemptor
Devastators = Havocs
Leviathan = Brigand
Infiltrators/Incursors = Cultists
Pod Devastators = Decimators
Pod Devastators = Helbrutes
Chief Librarian, Apothecary, Ancient, CM = Lord, DA, Sorcerer, MoP

Traits were Stalwart and Stealthy.

What I learned:

1) My list feels like it had a lot more utility than the IH one. I was able to screen the Pods with Cultists and Incursors/Infiltrators had to deploy defensively to avoid the Chosen bomb.

2) My firepower felt stronger. With the BL trait and Prescience its possible to use BLOS to get +1 to hit on many units. That's better than the IH equivalent reroll 1's to hit. The -1 AP from Dev is a bit harder to scale: with AT weapons, -1 AP is not a huge difference. Exploding 6's, especially with the Slaanesh strat on the Havocs felt better and Eternal Vendetta enabled the Contemptor to kill the Leviathan, with Havoc support. I had enough shooting to mop up the infantry also.

This was just turn 1 though, IH would probably prolong the firepower advantage from just staying in Dev all game. But then they miss out, because the melee stuff gets blunted, by never getting to Assault and if they get overwhelmed by shooting on turn 1 it can be hard to roll back.

3) SM Terminators are unreliable, unless you invest in a Chaplain to help make the charge from DS. In this case they just got stranded in the middle of nowhere and like the DW, got dismantled.

4) When the Pods did come in they bounced off the Harbinger and Contemptor: effectively just being meat for the grinder. In comparison, the Decimators and Helbrutes showed up and steam rolled the IH firebase.

Eradicators might have been better than Pods here, though.

5) The lists felt about equally resilient, but I think the Chosen and MoN Contemptor might just edge out their IH equivalents: with the Chosen being much less vulnerable than SS Terminators to weight of fire and the Contemptor having an edge against massed S8 (melta, plasma); with the IH Leviathan being a bit better vs Lascannons.

6) I've added a MoN and the Liber Hereticus to the MoP. With this I can get a -2 to hit on the Contemptor, with transhit and transhuman, T8 from MoP and -1 to wound from MoN, it just is a nightmare to get rid off.

The CSM characters (MoP especially) seem to have greater utility: MoP combines the roll of a buffing Librarian, Chaplain (for the better charge) and Apothecary, but has greater reach than the SM combos. Likewise Veil Sorcerer and DA are buffers that are also capable of delivering a melee threat, through Diabolic Strength.

Mirror Harbinger is just icing on the cake: great firepower, gives me command point regen; one of the best sources of it in the game in fact and assuming CK strats work with AoO allies, guaranteed Behind Enemy Lines mid-late game.

Best,
Samii.

**Aaranis**

Hey all I don't have the codex (just Wahapedia) but how do you put the Black Rune on Terminators ? It seems to require the "Cultist" Keyword.

**nathan2004**

^You should look at it in the Codex, it can be given to unit champions (Possessed, Chosen, Termies, etc.).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Samii wrote:

6) I've added a MoN and the Liber Hereticus to the MoP. With this I can get a -2 to hit on the Contemptor, with transhit and transhuman, T8 from MoP and -1 to wound from MoN, it just is a nightmare to get rid off.

The CSM characters (MoP especially) seem to have greater utility: MoP combines the roll of a buffing Librarian, Chaplain (for the better charge) and Apothecary, but has greater reach than the SM combos. Likewise Veil Sorcerer and DA are buffers that are also capable of delivering a melee threat, through Diabolic Strength.

Mirror Harbinger is just icing on the cake: great firepower, gives me command point regen; one of the best sources of it in the game in fact and assuming CK strats work with AoO allies, guaranteed Behind Enemy Lines mid-late game.

Best,
Samii.

You cap at -1 to hit, so unless they have a source of +1 to hit; -2 hit is wasted on the contemptor.

**Samii**

nathan2004 wrote:
^You should look at it in the Codex, it can be given to unit champions (Possessed, Chosen, Termies, etc.).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Samii wrote:

6) I've added a MoN and the Liber Hereticus to the MoP. With this I can get a -2 to hit on the Contemptor, with transhit and transhuman, T8 from MoP and -1 to wound from MoN, it just is a nightmare to get rid off.

The CSM characters (MoP especially) seem to have greater utility: MoP combines the roll of a buffing Librarian, Chaplain (for the better charge) and Apothecary, but has greater reach than the SM combos. Likewise Veil Sorcerer and DA are buffers that are also capable of delivering a melee threat, through Diabolic Strength.

Mirror Harbinger is just icing on the cake: great firepower, gives me command point regen; one of the best sources of it in the game in fact and assuming CK strats work with AoO allies, guaranteed Behind Enemy Lines mid-late game.

Best,
Samii.

You cap at -1 to hit, so unless they have a source of +1 to hit; -2 hit is wasted on the contemptor.

There are a few things that the -2 hard counters though: specifically Leman Russ turret weapons, IW Dreadnoughts with a MoF, any Tau, DA etc.

Against the rest it saves me spending command points on SMOKESCREEN.

Best,
Samii.

**WindstormSCR**

One thing I've been toying with but haven't yet tested is the idea of stuffing a second MoP and three obliterators into a dreadclaw, in order to dump them onto a secondary objective but within range of targets of choice. Second MoP gives a reason for cursed earth, and while you could +1T with mutated invigoration, it might be more interesting to use warp-marked (as you would be in range) to give the oblits +1 to wound on a specific priority target.

with the standard relic toting MoP coming into range turn 2 in time to heal/buff them if necessary.

**IwinUlose**

I’d have to disagree with possessed mid to a degree. They have no range output, which means far easier to just ignore like what can be done to the terminators or chosen. However Terminators can have more offensive range weapons than chosen Or possessed who have none.

As for chosen mid they have no invulnerable and their range are only bolt pistols. Now perhaps if you took mark of Tzeentch to have a sorcerer within 18 cast skeins and have Black rune. For 3/5 saves. But the fire power even with an icon extra ap -1 is still limited as is range.

On top of that they would have to be in a rhino and can’t disembark same turn. As for 3 terminators, over less is mute. To hold mid for exalt dark gods you need an icon unit or a DA or a MoP to get it at end of turn over waiting until beginning of your next turn.
Yes, you could use oblits as 2 or 3 separate units to get backfield, which is fine. But mine was about mid objective control and getting points first turn, so less than 3 can hinder damage output and survivability.

**Slipspace**

IwinUlose wrote:
I’d have to disagree with possessed mid to a degree. They have no range output, which means far easier to just ignore like what can be done to the terminators or chosen. However Terminators can have more offensive range weapons than chosen Or possessed who have none.

As for chosen mid they have no invulnerable and their range are only bolt pistols. Now perhaps if you took mark of Tzeentch to have a sorcerer within 18 cast skeins and have Black rune. For 3/5 saves. But the fire power even with an icon extra ap -1 is still limited as is range.

On top of that they would have to be in a rhino and can’t disembark same turn. As for 3 terminators, over less is mute. To hold mid for exalt dark gods you need an icon unit or a DA or a MoP to get it at end of turn over waiting until beginning of your next turn.
Yes, you could use oblits as 2 or 3 separate units to get backfield, which is fine. But mine was about mid objective control and getting points first turn, so less than 3 can hinder damage output and survivability.

You're still thinking too restrictively. When you're designing your army you don't want to be so hamstrung by assigning such specific roles to individual units because you encounter problems if your designated units are killed. For example, you don't need to hold the middle of the board with the same unit each turn. You can use Possessed in turn 1 because they're fast and then have a unit of Legionaries or a MoP or Terminators holding the middle in turn 2. The key thing with Possessed, especially for the WB secondary, is the lack of ranged output means you can happily use them to perform an action in turn 1 without losing anything. If your opponent ignores them due to a lack of ranged output that's fantastic, because they're then untouched to go and blender a unit in your next turn. Chosen, especially with the Black Rune, are durable enough for most purposes. The 3 wounds really helps them stay alive, moreso when buffed with all the defensive powers. Also, Chosen have bolters and potentially combi-weapons for ranged output, not just pistols.

Comparing Oblits to Possessed for midfield holding only works if you compare points (utility is also important). 3 Oblits are basically the same cost as 10 Possessed. In that scenario the Possessed are vastly more durable. Even better, you can take 2 units of 5 Possessed instead of 1 unit of 10, which can often make them even harder to deal with. The biggest problem Oblits will always face is the simple fact they cost far too much for what they achieve. When you can get almost 4 Chosen for the same cost as a single Oblit it becomes hard to justify including them at all.

**Sazzlefrats**

I'm running Word Bearers, but I want 3 armigers... Whats the best way of doing that?

**H.B.M.C.**

I can't be the only one who thinks that Vashtorr's rules are pretty lame.

**xeen**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I can't be the only one who thinks that Vashtorr's rules are pretty lame.

I second your motion......lame. I would rather him have less T and less W so he could be look our sir, and not degrade. Maybe the -1 damage combined with the 2+/4++ will make that big of a deal, but T7 "vehicle" type units aren't known for their survivalbility (Look at Angron). I mean my lord discordant can probably match him via combat prowess, but can hide behind venom crawlers. For way less points. His command abilities are cute, but since he can't be screened, the opponent can just concentrate their fire on him and they are of pretty limited range, and require line of sight. Also no <legion> key word but "agent of chaos", so no detachment abilities for him (also does that affect Let the Galaxy Burn?). Overall not impressed.

Also, his AoR seems lame, basically just gives the Wantons to daemon engines, while everything else losses it, plus no legion trait. So unless you are going to field an arks of omen detachment with nothing but daemon engines, I don't see the point.

**EviscerationPlague**

xeen wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
I can't be the only one who thinks that Vashtorr's rules are pretty lame.

I second your motion......lame. I would rather him have less T and less W so he could be look our sir, and not degrade. Maybe the -1 damage combined with the 2+/4++ will make that big of a deal, but T7 "vehicle" type units aren't known for their survivalbility (Look at Angron). I mean my lord discordant can probably match him via combat prowess, but can hide behind venom crawlers. For way less points. His command abilities are cute, but since he can't be screened, the opponent can just concentrate their fire on him and they are of pretty limited range, and require line of sight. Also no <legion> key word but "agent of chaos", so no detachment abilities for him (also does that affect Let the Galaxy Burn?). Overall not impressed.

Also, his AoR seems lame, basically just gives the Wantons to daemon engines, while everything else losses it, plus no legion trait. So unless you are going to field an arks of omen detachment with nothing but daemon engines, I don't see the point.

That's 3 Forgefiends, 3 Maulerfiends, 3 Venomcrawlers, and 3 Heldrakes. How many points is that LOL

**whembly**

Brass Scorpion… in Vashoor AoR. Spicy!!

**BomBomHotdog**

He doesn't get Let the Galaxy Burn since its an ability. Look at any other CSM entry and its listed there. His own AoR doesnt give it to him either as he's not a Deamon Engine. No alignment either so there's that too.

The hammer's ok if you can get him into combat.

**nathan2004**

Does a Warpsmith in Vashoor's AoR get to heal daemon engines or no because the ability is tied to a legion vehicle and nothing is legion?

**p5freak**

The warpsmith himself also hasnt a legion, so yes, he can heal daemon engines.

**ArcaneHorror**

The best way to running a Vashtorr army I would think would be to have a MoP and Lord Discordant as the other two HQ's, with a about three or four units of Legionnaires to hold objectives, and then just flood the board with daemon engines. It might even be best two have two spearhead detachments, with at least one regular Warpsmith, to max out the number of engines.

**p5freak**

Vashtorr is pathetic. He must be within 18" of an enemy vehicle and visible to it to reduce its guns to half range. Guess what ? Most vehicles will still be able to shoot him with that reduced range. He cant repair his own daemon engines. He doesnt benefit from his own AoR ability, he is not a daemon engine. Good luck getting him within melee range of an enemy vehicle to use his hammer. A disco lord can give a KLOS +1 to hit in melee, but vashtorr cant.

**ArcaneHorror**

The ability to put daemon engines into all the wantons is a pretty powerful buff. I will say that he should have been able to buff Soul Grinders, since he's the lord of the Soul Forge.

**JNAProductions**

ArcaneHorror wrote:
The ability to put daemon engines into all the wantons is a pretty powerful buff. I will say that he should have been able to buff Soul Grinders, since he's the lord of the Soul Forge.

It's the equivalent of +1 to-hit for the right weapons.

I'd be interested in it, since I run a lot of Engines, if Vashtorr himself wasn't so blech.

**EviscerationPlague**

JNAProductions wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
The ability to put daemon engines into all the wantons is a pretty powerful buff. I will say that he should have been able to buff Soul Grinders, since he's the lord of the Soul Forge.
It's the equivalent of +1 to-hit for the right weapons.

I'd be interested in it, since I run a lot of Engines, if Vashtorr himself wasn't so blech.

He doesn't even have a sweep attack profile with the claw like I expected.

**Samii**

I've played a few test games now versus a number of optimized meta-lists and done well.

Admittedly I'm not the best player, but I know how screen out my units from DS, how to play objectives etc.

I have to say I'm surprised by the performance of CSM in the global AoO meta ecosystem.

I think it could be for a couple reasons:

1) CSM Secondaries are still quite hard to play.

2) I notice that the meta hasn't caught up to AoO yet. The AoO allies system massively favors CSM. A Knight plugs so many gaps in CSM for example. A lot of the games played are still fielding pure CSM, so this potential is not being tapped. Likewise Terminators and Abaddon are still fielded, which in my opinion are too slow and suffer post-Nephilim; the Terminators particularly in comparison to Chosen do not fare well. Likewise, in post-AoC its better to field MSU MEQ, rather than blobs and Helbrutes and Decimators are helped tremendously by strategic reserves.

The list I've been playing has done some cool things: I've out-gunlined AM and IH. I was able to use strategic reserves tricks to counter the RW/DW combo. I haven't played Aeldari, GK and Custodes. Those faster-paced trading games might be tougher, especially where there is a lot of melee.

I'd like to take the list to a GT or RTT, but there is no local scene and work is pretty full on.

Also, given that we are only a few months from an edition change it seems better to wait for that.

Best,
Samii.

**Kangarupe**

Samii, your post is so timely to me personally. I've been watching blood for the god's videos and am currently right on the verge of scooping up 2 Decimators and another 2 Helbrutes (shamelessly copying his list lol). There seem to be a lot of Daemons running around in my local scene and the thought of copious ranged mortals is delightful. Have you experience great personal results with the Decimators specifically? Or is this just mostly hearsay?

**Samii**

For a while Decimators have been known to be good in BL.

With reserves in AoO they can just show up and delete things: I found that against DW they were very useful.

The Volkite Contemptor is another key. With Eternal Vendetta, if your opponent has something big and tough starting on the board, they are basically handing it over to you.

Turn 2 you switch to killing infantry with it. The Nurgle version (see the previous post) never dies.

Where Dean opened my eyes was with Helbrutes, they work really well now. They can let you play offensively, coming in flaming infantry, cracking vehicles with MM and charging stuff. They can interrupt in the shooting phase, which is an undervalued ability and can score BEL. Alternately, you play defensively, if your opponent rushes your DZ and (in my list) castle, they can come in Turn 2, shoot and charge them from an 1" away.

I have tried various things, but I think Dean's Helbrutes strat works particularly well in the AoO meta.

Best,
Samii.