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Hello everybody. Time to laugh at the stupid newb, I'm sure. ")  Do powerfists and other strength modifying weapons work against the Monolith? I tried the search, but didn't see this discussed earlier.

The entry for monolith's rants on and on about no AP modifiers, not mentioning strength at all, then at the end throws  'unaugmented strength' in the concluding sentance.

So, do powerfists or any other strength boost, like Furious Charge, Daemonic Strength, Hammerhand, Witchblades, Dread CCWs, work?

yes they do.. and youll hear a lot about no they dont ... this has been discussed ad nauseum on the old gw forum... living metal does not stop you from having an upgraded str it stops you from haivng additional dice to penetrate the metal

thus you str 8 power fist will work just fine good luck rolling a 6 to hit and a 6 to glance

From page 113 of the 2004 Chapter Approved compendium:


So there it is in black and white that you use the model's unaugmented strength, so please explain exactly why you would use the augmented strength of the powerfist when the rules say that you would not?

Posted By Ghaz on 01/18/2007 10:32 PM
From page 113 of the 2004 Chapter Approved compendium:

In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.

So there it is in black and white that you use the model's unaugmented strength, so please explain exactly why you would use the augmented strength of the powerfist when the rules say that you would not?

Ghaz,

The powerfist (weapon) doesn't have a strength value. It doubles the Strength of the model using it.

Living metal only forces weapons to use their unaugmented Strength, not models.

 

Posted By Ghaz on 01/18/2007 10:32 PM
From page 113 of the 2004 Chapter Approved compendium:

In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.

So there it is in black and white that you use the model's unaugmented strength, so please explain exactly why you would use the augmented strength of the powerfist when the rules say that you would not?

The flaw with that argument is that you don't use the _model's_ strength, you use the unaugmented strength of the _weapon_.  The unaugmented strength of the powerfist is 2x the wielder's.

Here we go again......

Rusty spoon anyone?

BYE

Thanks. I find a nice, light case of tetanus to be helpful in these situations.

like i said youll find a bunch of people that say no even when gw itself has said yes it does time and time again
this is why i hate the game exactly this no matter what is said printed or what people always come back and say no it doesnt.... im tired of this

Ok well then since no else did, I'll laugh.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *points at the noob* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Welcome to dakka. Run, for the love of Gav RUN!!!! Before you too are sucked in.....

I am surprised no one linked the other 70 threads about this for him to peruse?

Yea well I am not going to either.

I agree with the others, unaugmented strength of the powerfist is 2x the model using it. Therefore it's str 8 on a marine, str 6 on a Guardsman etc... Just like the unaugmented str of a meltagun is Str 8 and the unaugmented str of a powersword is the strength of the model using it. If we keep dividing this rule to only effect the powerfist then we are merely using it to gain an unfair advantage.

I had someone try to tell me that a venom cannon has to use the 'unaugmented strength' for penetration rolls, and so they would only be S and not S+2. I had hit it with one shot each from a gunfex, a S 10 venom cannon shot, and a S 8 barbed strangler shot. Taking away the strength modifiers would make the barbed strangler shot S 9. He gave up when I pointed this out.

Posted By DaIronGob on 01/19/2007 6:31 AM
I am surprised no one linked the other 70 threads about this for him to peruse?

Yea well I am not going to either.

Sorry, I don't know whether I'm blind or just incompetent, but when I tried the search the only thread that came up was: http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/15/tpage/2/view/Topic/postid/81364/Default.aspx

Which wasn't particularly helpful.

Posted By yakface on 01/18/2007 11:58 PM

Posted By Ghaz on 01/18/2007 10:32 PM
From page 113 of the 2004 Chapter Approved compendium:

In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.

So there it is in black and white that you use the model's unaugmented strength, so please explain exactly why you would use the augmented strength of the powerfist when the rules say that you would not?

Ghaz,

The powerfist (weapon) doesn't have a strength value. It doubles the Strength of the model using it.

Living metal only forces weapons to use their unaugmented Strength, not models.

 

So does that mean you'd be striking with no strength at all since a powerifst doesn't have a strength stat?

No matter.  I was just trying to get DZ to explain the reasoning behind his answer instead of just saying 'this is how it is'.

Well if you search "monolith" you get around 11 pages of posts.

I would almost bet that while the title may not bring it up, the post has it in there somewhere. :-D

Posted By Ghaz on 01/19/2007 9:24 AM

So does that mean you'd be striking with no strength at all since a powerifst doesn't have a strength stat?  No matter.  I was just trying to get DZ to explain the reasoning behind his answer instead of just saying 'this is how it is'.

So, is that a yes for powerfists, or a no?

Another example, Lets say we have a Chaos Lord with Stature, Strength, and a Dark Blade. What strength does he attack with? S4, his 'unaugmented' strength; S6, the 'weapons' strength; or S8; all strength modifiers apply.

 

Posted By DaIronGob on 01/19/2007 9:27 AM
Well if you search "monolith" you get around 11 pages of posts.

I would almost bet that while the title may not bring it up, the post has it in there somewhere. :-D

Sort of derailing my own post, I looked through those 11 pages and found nothing. However, it doesn't have anything before 2006. Is the forum just that young, or are old posts deleted, or do I have to adjust my settings somehow to see old posts?

8

Posted By Sir Drake on 01/19/2007 9:17 AM

Posted By DaIronGob on 01/19/2007 6:31 AM
I am surprised no one linked the other 70 threads about this for him to peruse?

Yea well I am not going to either.

Sorry, I don't know whether I'm blind or just incompetent, but when I tried the search the only thread that came up was: http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/15/tpage/2/view/Topic/postid/81364/Default.aspx

Which wasn't particularly helpful.

This thread doesn't seem to be particularly helpful either.

Posted By Sir Drake on 01/19/2007 12:32 PM

Posted By Ghaz on 01/19/2007 9:24 AM

So does that mean you'd be striking with no strength at all since a powerifst doesn't have a strength stat?  No matter.  I was just trying to get DZ to explain the reasoning behind his answer instead of just saying 'this is how it is'.

So, is that a yes for powerfists, or a no?

Another example, Lets say we have a Chaos Lord with Stature, Strength, and a Dark Blade. What strength does he attack with? S4, his 'unaugmented' strength; S6, the 'weapons' strength; or S8; all strength modifiers apply.

 

Posted By DaIronGob on 01/19/2007 9:27 AM
Well if you search "monolith" you get around 11 pages of posts.

I would almost bet that while the title may not bring it up, the post has it in there somewhere. :-D

Sort of derailing my own post, I looked through those 11 topics and found nothing. However, it doesn't have anything before 2006. Is the forum just that young, or are old posts deleted, or do I have to adjust my settings somehow to see old posts?

The forum was rebuilt earlier last year, so nothing loder then 2006 will be found.  I believe this is Dakka's 3rd generation.

In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.

Ghaz> So there it is in black and white that you use the model's unaugmented strength, so please explain exactly why you would use the augmented strength of the powerfist when the rules say that you would not?

Ghaz has it spot on, with evidence in black and white, doesn't work, (and the answer to your rhetorical question Ghaz is because he can't). All the people making unsupported S8 comments are just wrong. It's black and white RAW.

...do powerfists or any other strength boost, like Furious Charge, Daemonic Strength, Hammerhand, Witchblades, Dread CCWs, work?

Nope

Fist = S4

I've never been in this debate before, but let me say for the record that it looks like a clear literal reading to me:

The weapon's unaugmented strength is what the rule mentions. Not the model.

The unaugmented strength of a powerfist is the user's strength X2. The user's strength is augmented, but the weapon has no inherent strength. If the strength of the *model* is 4, then the unaugmented strength of the weapon is 8.

Same for witchblades (and spears in HtH). The strength of the model is 3, the unaugmented strength of the weapon is 3X3=9.

Also for the record, I don't plan to say anything else in this thread unless somebody comes out with an argument that is clearly bogus or tries to bully everybody into accepting his viewpoint.

Sirdrake, sorry for not being more helpful. Its not your fault the search engine is a bit sensitive. Many threads are not clearly marked in the heading as your is concerniing this issue.

By RaW, powerfists do indeed harm monoliths.

Also, keep in mind how much GW is pushing RaW as "Canonical Word Of God" right now, as if their rules are so tight that the literal meaning should always be taken. *suppresses laughter directed at GW...barely*

Failing that, roll a D6 for it... *bursts out laughing*

Posted By Augustus on 01/19/2007 2:43 PM                                                                                                  Ghaz has it spot on, with evidence in black and white, doesn't work, (and the answer to your rhetorical question Ghaz is because he can't). All the people making unsupported S8 comments are just wrong. It's black and white RAW.

The claim isn't unsupported though. It's a clear-cut case of wording, specifically the use of the word weapon and model. The Powerfist has no inherent strength, its strength is always twice that of the user. Doubling the strength isn't therefore modifying the strength of the weapon, it is the strength of the weapon, RAW.

Out of curiosity, where did you guys get the phrase

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

I mean, what part of the necron codex/faq did you draw this conclusion?

Posted By logan007 on 01/19/2007 6:02 PM
Out of curiosity, where did you guys get the phrase

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

I mean, what part of the necron codex/faq did you draw this conclusion?

That's from the newer printing of the Necron codex which was also made as a cut-and-paste correction in CA:2004 (as noted by Ghaz when he first posted it).

 

 

whoops :/

guess I shouldn't have skipped the first few posts

and i didnt explain it because it doesnt need to be explained period
GW explained it many many times it came up literally every week on the old forums and it was the same way everytime

the power fist is str8 against the monolith.. and as it has been pointed out time and time again the pf has no str value whatsoever so next i guess youll say your attacking at 0 str right ?
no and you know as well as i do that the models str is doubled when equippped with a power fist...now if it said you gte 2d6 for armor pen like say oh what can do that oh yeah i know a chainfist.. then youd have something

and now ill throw you for a tizzy.... take the explanation of why the assasins turbo penetrator round works on a lith and ill tell you guess what they forgot and should work the same way... metla bombs...

Before you go jumping around pulling your hair out.. a melta bomb is not a melta weapon.. look up melta weapons what does it say melta gun multi melta.. a melta bomb is a grenade

and by GW'S own raw the melta bomb should affect the lith with a str 8 and 2d6 for armor pen.. Because...ITS ALWAYS STR8 PLUS 2D6 YOU CANNOT USE IT IN ANY WAY OTHER THAN AS A BOMB ATTACK THAT IS STR8 PLUS 2D6 ... just like the assassins round... i have fought with gw for over a year on it they admitted i was correct but wont change the faq

your mileage may vary

Posted By The Drop Zone on 01/19/2007 9:00 PM
 i guess youll say your attacking at 0 str right ?

Behold the only actual sentence ending punctuation in his entire post.  It looks lonely.

If it didn't need to be explained, he wouldn't have asked in the first place.


So my Imperial Guardsmen with a powerfist is now STR 8? That's good to know.


Yes, the model's strength is doubled. That is different than saying the weapon's strength is double that of the model's.


Wrong, because the melta bomb gives you bonus dice to your armour penetration roll. The bonus is built into the weapon's stats but it is still a bonus.

Posted By Ghaz on 01/19/2007 10:36 PM
Yes, the model's strength is doubled. That is different than saying the weapon's strength is double that of the model's.

Sooo....

Is that an argument for or against Fists and other strength modifiers working on a Monolith?

last i check the only thing that get an extra dice was turbo penn round from the assassin agianst the Monolith, and I beleive Guards power fist are Str6 not 8, Plus why would you want too go H2H against a monolith, you hae better odds on shooting it down with a lascannon or battle cannon. I beleive the only str 9 hand to hand weapon would be a chaos AC with a power fist and D. str( but that would be a waste in points there)