Switch Theme:

How useful is Iron Discipline?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I've played over 30 games with my IG army, and I have yet to find that I've ever wished that I had ID.  Most of the time I find that with the banner's reroll of moral check, the regular infantry tend to hold.  And I've never had to rally a squad under 50%, most time, if they are down to 4 models, my opponenets just finish them off.

So my question is how often have ID worked for all you IG players out there?

In my army, I have 4 10 men squads of infantry, 2 5 men drop vets, and 2 5 men command squads.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Philadelphia, PA

Heck yeah! Many times have my 1-2 man squads with a lascannon rallied and started shooting again. I make my opponents finish off those 1-2 man squads instead of being ignored as they run off the table. Never leave home without ID!

Clear the battlefield and let me see
All the profit from our victory.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

For its cost, and given how few other doctrines are worth taking, there is no reason NOT to include it. 10-15 points (similar to the standard's 11 pts), and you preserve ~47 VPs if a single las/plas squad breaks while under half, and falls back into your ID bubble.

It's one of those choices that can't be duplicated by other means, and it's a very small price to pay to preserve options.

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? 
   
Made in us
Policing Securitate





but ID might take the place of my Hardened Fighter's doctrine! I love me WS4 Sentinels!
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Hardened Fighters is the 2nd worst Doctrine in the book, only beaten by Cybernetic Enhancements. The weakness of Guard is their HTH abilities. You cannot throw points at a weakness and expect that weakness to suddenly go away.

Hardened Fighters doesn't make any of your men better in HTH, all it does make them worth more VP's when they're slaughtered in HTH.

Iron Discipline on the other hand enhaces a pre-existing strength. The free Leadership Bubble + a Standard makes for some pretty solid infantry formations. The fact that you can ignore -1 for being below 50%, and regroup if below 50% is a boon to that strength, so the 10-15 points it costs you in an entire army is worth far more than attempting to make Guardsmen 'better' in HTH.

Iron Dicipline is the one Doctrine I consider to be mandatory, and would never go to the field without.  I'll even drop other important Doctrines like Close Order Drill and Drop Troops to ensure that I have Iron Discipline.

And to choose Hardened Fighters over Iron Discipline is blasphemy against the Emperor.

BYE

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Policing Securitate





HBMC, check your sarcasm detector, the batteries are gone.

Point well made, however.

ID and COD are probably the two most important doctorines for 95% of IG armies.
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





Los Angeles

Posted By Dainty Twerp on 05/23/2007 7:10 AM
HBMC, check your sarcasm detector, the batteries are gone.
Sarcasm is something that is usually detected via vocal tonality and facial expression.  Since both of those are lacking in text, sarcasm becomes extremely difficult to detect.  Keep that in mind when you attempt to use it on a message board. Little tricks like “[/sarcasm]” or “J/K” will call It out for what it is and are good indicators for readers.

**** Phoenix ****

Threads should be like skirts: long enough to cover what's important but short enough to keep it interesting. 
   
Made in us
Policing Securitate





I'll stick with giving HBMC more credit than needing j/k tossed in...
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Will: I wonder if this is one of those situations where you can't really appreciate how useful something is until you use it for a while. Maybe your opponents are all really good at finishing squads, but I almost always have a few 3 man squads left at the end of a shooting phase, and taking a test at LD8 is way better than at LD7. (21/36 < 26/36, or 58.3% compared to 72.2%)

For a pittance in points, the advantages are great. It's even more important for keeping the last two lascannons in an anti-tank squad from breaking.

Not to hijack a thread, but how many doctrines are even worth taking? Here's my count:
Iron Discipline
Close Order Drill
Drop Troops
Rough Riders
grenadiers
veterans
stormtroopers
Mechanized
Conscripts
Light Infantry
Heavy WEapons Platoons

Many of those are only mediocre (stormtroopers), and many are mutually exclusive (drop troops, light infantry, mechanized).
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

Not to hijack a thread, but how many doctrines are even worth taking? Here's my count:
Iron Discipline
Close Order Drill
Drop Troops
Rough Riders
grenadiers
veterans
stormtroopers
Mechanized
Conscripts
Light Infantry
Heavy WEapons Platoons

Many of those are only mediocre (stormtroopers), and many are mutually exclusive (drop troops, light infantry, mechanized).

You forgot Chamelwhateverloin. If your local metagame is terrain-heavy, particularly with buildings, it's a solid choice for stand-and-shoot guard. You, too, can experience the joys of 3+ saves.

I have little use for storm troopers under the current incarnation, and less for grenadiers. Veterans are just plain better (and I don't use THEM much, either; if I did, they'd be in Chamelwhateverloin, and infiltrating their BS 4 lascannons & 3 plasma guns into buildings, in large numbers).

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

What Doctrines are good eh? Wrote this a while back. Seems like a good idea to post it:

Priests: The Priest is a waste of a Doctrine Point. He serves no purpose in a Guard army. He's a HTH fighter that cannot be attached to your HTH squads.

Tech-Priest Enginseer: To expensive to be worth it. Will be singled out and eliminated quickly.

 

Sanctioned Psykers: On one hand, they're only 12 points each. On the other hand, they've got a horrible profile and can't do anything well.

 

On one hand, they will make a Command Section an even numbered squad. On the other hand, their powers are random so planning their use is impossible.

 

On one hand, Telepathic Order is a really cool power. On the other hand, of the other powers the Sanctioned Psyker can get, 'No Power' is the next best one - that's just how bad his other powers are (Lightning Arc, the '6' result (ie. best result) is nothing but a Heavy 6 Lasgun!).

 

Then you factor in that he's Ld8. Then you factor in that a Commissar (if you have a spare 40 points) will kill him if he suffers a Perils of the Warp. Then you factor in that Marines (the most common army) are now taking Librarians in all their forces, meaning lots of Ld9 Psychic Hoods, meaning that you'll soon realise that your Sanctioned Psyker, even if you're lucky enough to roll Telepathic Order, probably won't be casting it all that often.

 

To get use out of your Sanction Psykers (that is, in order to increase the odds of rolling Telepathic Order), you need to buy 5 of them (60 points) and get all 5 rolls. The problem is, that's 5 men for 60 points. I'd rather have another 10-man squad for the same points, wouldn't you?

 

Sanctioned Psykers are a waste of a Doctrine Point unless you have absolutely nothing else you want from the Doctrine list and a spare 60 points floating about.

 

Storm Trooper Squads: I have a whole 5-page Tactica Storm Troopers written up but let me summarize them by saying that Veterans are better. Same cost. More BS4 Meltaguns. Forget Storm Troopers. 

Grenadiers: Grenadiers are just Storm Troopers without Infiltrate or Deep Strike. Other than that they're exactly the same. Because of this they don't have much use. The strength of Stormies is in their flexibility. Grenadiers have no flexibility and are a waste of a Doctrine Slot. You're better off taking Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. Atleast their Vet Sergeant can get a Thunderhammer...

Ratling Squads: Umm... Sniper Rifles are terrible weapons. You need 10 of them (110) points to get some use out of the Sniper Rifles and even then they're only good against Wraithlords, C'Tan and the odd big Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon.

 

I'll tell you what else you can get for 110 points - 3 Lascannon AT Squad. I think that's a better use of 110 points than 10 Ratlings could ever be. Next factor in that Ratlings are 0-1. Is it worth wasting an entire Doctrine Point on a 0-1 unit that isn't very effective and costs over 100 points to be even marginally useful.

 

Ratlings are a waste of a Doctrine Point. They shouldn't even be taken in normal Guard armies!

 

Ogryn: Junk. They'll do well against lighter troops (Tau, other Guardsmen, Gaunts) but otherwise fail against everything else. They're big targets, they can't charge out of a Chimera any more, and, worst of all, they're T4 so they're power fist bait and (with the new Rapid Fire rules) bolter bait.

 

Plus their shooting is worthless.

 

Ogryns are a waste of a Doctrine Point. There are better counter-assault units out there that are faster and cause more damage.

 

Special Weapon Squads: Don't buy Special Weapons for Special Weapon Squads. They're too expensive. For example:

 

SWS w/3 BS3 Meltaguns = 80 points

Command Section w/4 BS3 Meltaguns = 80 points

H-Vet Squad w/3 BS4 Meltaguns = 70 points

 

SWS w/3 BS3 Grenade Launchers = 71 points

Command Section w/4 BS3 Grenade Launchers = 72 points

H-Vet Squad w/3 BS4 Grenade Launchers = 64 points (not that you'd ever take GL's in an H-Vet squad)

 

Understand?

 

There are only two real ways to use SWSs, either Infiltrating via Light Infantry (so they can set up last inside your lines as a counter-assault unit), or Deep Striking. In both cases there is only one type of armament that they should ever have:

 

2 Flamers + 1 Demo Charge = 63 points.

 

This squad will murder any unit preparing to charge you. 1 S8 AP2 Ordnance blast plus 2 flamer templates will hurt a lot, and can even gut a Terminator squad. Special Weapon Squads are worth a Doctrine Point, but think very carefully about how they fit in with the rest of your army (if you're not taking either Light Infantry or Drop Troops, leave them at home) and only take them if you think you can get some good use from them.

 

Conscript Platoon: Conscripts have lost a lot of their worth in 4th Ed. With the return of the Wipe-out rules and loss of Screening, the major utilities of Conscripts (to protect your units and act as a tar-pit counter-assault unit) have vanished.

 

I'm not too sure how to use Conscripts in 4th Ed. I think I'd rather put the points into equally as expendable Heavy Bolter/Flamer Infantry Squads. At least they can shoot for a bit before being charged, and I won't lose 35+ of them to a lucky ICs who runs them down...

 

Conscripts are not a waste of a Doctrine Point, but think long and hard how you are going to use them and if you'd be better served just buying more Infantry Squads. Damned 4th Ed.

 

Rough Rider Squadron: Rough Riders are good. They make excellent counter-assault units and can tear apart most things. They only work once though, and RRs are big models, so you'll have to hide them until they can be assured of getting that charge.

 

And never ever let RRs be charged. They need to charge to be worthwhile.

 

Rough Riders are a good use of a Doctrine Point if you need a Counter-Assault Unit.

 

Heavy Weapon Platoons: Their worth is considerably less in 4th Ed thanks to the removal of screening. It's not hard to kill 6 Guardsmen and with the ever-present Space Marine Master giving Ld10 to everyone on the whole *fudge*ing board the chances of your most common opponents (SM players) failing their target priority check are quite small.

 

The benefits of HWPs is that you can take LC or AC units, stick them on your baseline (48" away from the enemy) and make good use of that long range. They also give you another Command Platoon, and they're always useful.

 

The real downside to HWPs though is that they're Heavy Support choices, meaning they set up first in most missions, meaning that in order to get good use from them you need to buy the HW units inside the HWP Light Infantry so that they can infiltrate, and then pray you roll a mission that has Infiltrate...

 

Heavy Weapon Platoons are a risky use of a Doctrine Point in 4th Ed. They'll either do absolutely nothing, or cream the enemy. I don't like inconsistency, so I tend to stay away from them 'cept in All Infantry Guard armies where you need some extra guns.

 

Ok, now I'll just go through each section of the Doctrines one by one.

 

Alternate Regimental Organisation:

 

Drop Troops: One of the most useful Doctrines you have access to. Drop Troops is free, can be applied to most normal squads, and gives the Guard an extra bit of mobility (especially useful for All Infantry Guard armies).

 

Drop Troops should be on your 'Always Take' list unless you have a very specific plan for your army that precludes Deep Striking (ie. you're taking Mechanised for example).

 

Grenadiers: I've already covered them. Avoid. Avoid. Avoid. No flexibility. Stormtroopers with no utility whatsoever.

 

Mechanised: Choosing this Doctrine will dramatically alter the way your Guard army plays. I could write an entire Tactica on just Mechanised armies and how they work, but I don't have the time to do that now so I'll just say this:

 

Mechanised is a good use of a Doctrine Point but changes the way the army works on a fundamental level. You won't have the numbers you're used to having (making Conscripts an interesting way of bulking up your numbers) and the amount of Scoring Units you'll have will be significantly reduced (thanks to the idiotic rule that Transports can't score, even if they're a freakin' Wave Serpent or Chimera - thanks a bunch GW!). Taking Mechanised will dictate what other Doctrines you take (ie. you can't take Light Infantry and Drop Troops is no use). Mechanised has lost some of its power from 4th Ed (mainly because of the whole scoring thing and because vehicles suck in 4th Ed), but it's still a viable army type.

 

Skills & Drills:

 

A real mixed bag. Skills & Drills range from useless, to utterly useless, to "Oh my God that's so freakin' useless" to "Must take all the damned time".

 

Die-Hards: Die-Hards allows you to ignore outnumbering modifiers in HTH. This is an example of throwing points at a weakness to make it go away rather than concentrating on the strengths of your armies.

 

If you're a competent Guard player you'll know how to use Command Radii and your Standard Bearer to keep all your troops at a constant state of Ld8 or Ld9 with a re-roll. If you're a competent Guard player you'll also have Iron Discipline so that your men will always remain at full Leadership unless they're outnumbered. If they're outnumbered then they're losing assault, and Die-Hards, at 5 points a squad, isn't going to change that.

 

If you men stick around because of Die-Hards during his turn, then get wiped out during your turn, he'll be free to move that squad again. You do not want this to happen.

 

Die-Hards is a bad use of a Doctrine Point. It doesn't do anything you need!

 

Icon Discipline: The single most important Doctrine in the entire Codex, Iron Discipline is an absolute steal at 5 points per officer. No negatives for being under 50% and the ability to regroup even when below 50% is worth quite a lot, especially when it's one of your Heavy Weapon Squads that still has 2 guns in it running away from the enemy.

 

It's even more mandatory in Mechanised armies, where the model count is lower therefore every Guardsmen you can keep on the table and keep fighting counts.

 

Iron Discipline is the best use of a Doctrine Point in the Codex. I would put this as first choice in pretty much any Guard army, without fail.

 

Independent Commissars: This is one of those 'Oh my God that's so freakin' useless!'. Commissars are junk normally. They're worth 25 points, not 40, and that was when they still had 3 attacks base in the old Guard 'Dex. Now they only have 2 base attacks, yet their cost didn't change? And now, to make them Independent, they want you to pay a further 10 points per Commissar for this ability? This makes them fifty points before weapons. Fifty!

 

GW cannot write rules.

 

If costs you 60 points (only 10 more) for a 10-man Squad, so why spend FIFTY points on a T3 W2 Independent Character?

 

For starters, how is being Independent a benefit in ANY way except to be put with Conscripts to give them Ld10 (which you don't want, as sometimes you WANT them to be Ld5 and run away, specifically during the enemy's turn!)? The only thing of any worth a Commissar can get is a power fist, and that was because he remained hidden inside units. Making him an Independent Character means that he's no longer invisible inside units, so he'll be killed before he can swing!

 

Independent Commissars is, without a doubt, one of the worst Doctrines in the Codex and is a complete waste of a Doctrine Point. There is just no reason to EVER take this Doctrine.

 

Close Order Drill: From completely useless to virtually mandatory, Close Order Drill is one of the best Doctrines in the Codex. It is the perfect example of having an option to help combat a weakness in the Guard army without having to pay any points for it!

 

That's right folks - COD is free. Platoon Squads and Conscripts can take it for FREE. It makes them I4, so they get to swing with everyone before the Marines kill them all, and the +Ld is a little bonus.

 

Now, there are some things to consider RE: 4th Ed when it comes to COD. First and foremost is the nerfing all blast weapons have suffered at the hands of the GW rules writers. You don't want to be bunched up, you want to be a full coherency so that blast marker weapons never kill more than 2 of you per shot. Of course, COD requires you to be bunched in order to gain its effects.

 

Not to worry though, as it's only used in assault, so you can wait until the enemy is about to strike and then move your front units into formation (which is fluffy really, with Guard fixing bayonet’s just before the enemy charges them!).

 

Close Order Drill is a fantastic use of a Doctrine Point and it, along with Iron Discipline, should always be the first two Doctrine choices you ever make.

 

Hardened Fighters: Another completely useless Doctrine, Hardened Fighters is the best example of 'throwing points at a weakness so that it'll go away' I can think of.

 

One should always play towards their Guard army's strengths (shooting) and never try to make up for its weaknesses (HTH) by paying points for marginal increases in HTH ability. Lemme just find what I wrote about Hardened Fighters the other day at Dakka so I don't have to retype this.

 

'You're not giving them a chance by taking Hardened Fighters, you're just making the squad 15 points more expensive for not much gain. In order for the unit to have a chance it has to be able to swing before the unit is completely gutted. COD does that, giving them I4. It won't help against Aspect Warriors or Super-Gaunts, but against most Marines it's enough to give you 10 or 11 WS3 S3 I4 attacks whenever you get charged. And, most importantly, this ability doesn't cost you a single point!

Spending 15 points per squad to make yourself slightly harder to hit (remember HF doesn't improve your combat ability, it only slightly hampers theirs) is a bad idea.

Guard should not be fighting in HTH combat, and any points spent on improving your HTH ability is extra VPs your enemy can claim. Always remember, play to your armies strengths, not your weaknesses (that's your opponent's job). Don't spend points in a feeble attempt to plug up a weakness, spend those 15 points a squad on more guns (a strength). Yes you're going to get into HTH eventually, but your opponent is going to find it much harder to make back his points against 60 points + equipment squads than against 75 points + equipment squads.

HF is just making the squad 25% more expensive for no real gain.
When your Guard fight in assault their aim is not to beat the enemy but to stall the enemy, either by allowing the rest of your troops to get away or giving you time to swarm an enemy unit with a few extra squads. Spending 15 points a squad for no real gain just means you have less warm bodies on the table, less ability to swarm, and each squad gives the enemy more VPs.

Also keep in mind that Guardsmen are expendable, and wars of attrition vs high-class (and low number) assault troops can often go your way. You should have 90+ of them on the table in a normal game (1500+ points) and losing 80% of them isn't a big deal if you complete your objectives. Points from Guard armies come from Command units and the bigger non-troop units, not from the infantry units. If his 180 point Marine squad kills a 85 point Guard squad, who really cares? He's still got to kill another 85-point Guard unit + another 5 points to break even! In the meantime you've charged 30 Guardsmen at his squad, netting you 20-21 attacks per squad (let's just say 60 total), at Initiative 4, giving you 3 and a bit Marines, 4 with what you killed the turn before, and that's 60 points you've killed - the cost of a full Guard squad before weapons - and you've only killed 4 of his models!

What's his remaining 6 or so Marines going to do against 30+ Guardsmen who are all swinging at the same time? Not much.

I'll say it again:

Play to your strengths, not your weaknesses. Your strength is shooting, so put your points into that. Don't try and make up for deficiencies in your army by throwing points at the problems. Pandering to your weaknesses in assault by giving up on more models and more guns just for a slight increase to WS is not to the way to deal with enemy assaulters.

 

Hardened Fighters is a complete waste of a Doctrine Point. It is one of the worst Doctrines in the Codex.

 

Jungle Fighters: Jungle Fighters looks good on paper, but it has no benefits. Light Infantry is superior in every respect. Jungle Fighters' special abilities only work in Jungle, but lets look at them:

 

Can see 12" through forest - When's the last time you needed to see through a 12" forest?

Receives a 4+ cover save in forest - And? You can receive a 4+ cover save in all standard terrain except forest without buying any Doctrines!

Move at full speed in forest terrain - Light infantry allows you to roll an additional Difficult Terrain D6 in any terrain.

May Infiltrate into forest terrain - Light Infantry allows you to Infiltrate into all terrain.

Can take Heavy Flamers - Oh wow! Replace a indispensable heavy weapon with a short ranged flame template weapon.

Can't take Lascannons - Yeah! Real good benefit there!

5+ save becomes a 6+ save - Why am I taking this again?

10 points a squad - So is Light Infantry

Avoid this one. The disadvantages are something you don't want to have, and the advantages are done better with Light Infantry.

 

Jungle Fighters is a waste of a Doctrine Point.

 

Light Infantry: One of the best Doctrines in the Codex, Light Infantry is a cheap and easy way of giving a few key squads Infiltrate. You'll never use the useless Sniper Rifle option, and the move through cover bit is a nice bonus, but the Infiltrate thing is why you buy this one.

 

Of course, Guard commanders never Infiltrate their units forward, what they do is use Infiltrate to give you a strategic advantage over your opponent. Give it to units you want to set up last, and then after the enemy has finished, set up your infiltrating units accordingly. This is great for SWSs, Command Platoons with flamers, heavy weapons units and things like that as you can place those units right where they are probably going to need to be (ie. placing 3 Lascannons right opposite that Predator 48" away from it).

 

Light Infantry is a very good use of a Doctrine Point, but could get a bit expensive if you buy it for everyone. The Sniper Rifle option is useless - never take it.

 

Sharpshooters: Sharpshooters is a 'just in case' upgrade. When I bring it I usually only ever give it to a couple of squads (namely HW units and 4 Melta Command Sections), never to general squads. +10 points per squad isn't worth re-rolling 1's for some Lasgun shots.

 

Sharpshooters, as I said, is good for those units with lots of the same weapon. 4 Meltas, 4 Grenade Launchers, 3 Lascannons, 3 Heavy Bolters or 3 Autocannons. You could give it to a few Infantry Squads with single Lascannons but only if you have the points - find other places to spend the points first (Searchlights, Extra Armour, Macharian Crosses etc.).

 

Sharpshooters is a good 5th choice for a Doctrine, something you'd take when you don't really want any other Doctrines beyond the 4 you've already chosen and the one you'd dump first if you realised you needed something else.

 

Xeno-Fighters: Ranking up there with the 'Oh my God' category of useless Doctrines, Xenos Fighters is a complete waste of time. It's another 'throw points at a weakness in the hope it'll go away' upgrade. It's not expensive, so that's a 'benefit' I guess, but do you really need your Infantry to hit the enemy on a 3+? Wouldn't you rather spend those same 5 points on Iron Discipline for an Officer and ensure that your army isn't running away?

 

The biggest problem with Xeno-Fighters is that it's so specific. In a tournament situation you have to pick a type of enemy and stick with it.

 

Against Orks you've got Buckley’s of killing any of them, and the bastards have each got 4 attacks on the charge so killing any in HTH is going to be quite difficult.

 

Against Eldar they're either Guardians who you have a fair chance of defeating (but only if you have COD) or Aspect Warriors which are going to swing before you anyway, so what good is hitting on 3+?

 

Against 'Nids, well they're I5 most of the time anyway, so you'll be dead before swinging.

 

And considering that there's no 'Marine Fighter' option, what's the point?

 

Xeno-Fighters is a terrible waste of a Doctrine Point. Never take it.

 

Veterans: Another good choice, Veterans allows you to take another 2 Hardened Veteran Squads. I like H-Vets. They make great Deep Striking suicide units with Meltaguns. Bringing more than one is always a bonus.

 

Veterans is a good use of a Doctrine Point, but ensure that if you take it you make the most of it.

 

Special Equipment:

 

The Special Equipment section is a great example of what GW is always failing at - great concept, bad execution. The idea of giving squads a bonus for a few points is fantastic, but the fact that you have to apply which ever ones you choose to your entire army makes them prohibitive. If you applied them on a platoon by platoon basis, then they'd work, but they don't.

 

To add insult to injury, most of these you will never use anyway as they're junk options.

 

Chem-Inhalers: Rather than running away, you are Pinned instead. I don't really see you'd want this, especially at +10 points for every squad in your army. Just stick to your Leadership Radii w/Iron Discipline and a Standard Bearer and you shouldn't have may Leadership problems anyway.

 

Chem-Inhalers is a waste of a Doctrine Point. It does nothing you need it to do.

 

Cameleoline & Carapace Armour: I'm going to lump these two together as they're the only two Special Equipment Doctrines you'll ever take so must be compared to one another pretty closely.

 

Cameleoline is an exceptional Doctrine and is truly the only worthwhile Special Equipment Doctrine. Cameleoline is a prime example of playing towards a strength rather than to a weakness. It can get a bit pricey though as you have to give it to everyone. Cameleoline also has a good place in Mechanised forces, where model counts are smaller and therefore each individual Guardsman becomes slightly more important. You'll have less squads so you'll want them to survive for longer. Guard rely on cover saves more than anything, so Cameleoline enhances that meaning that your few troops survive for longer, perfect for a Mechanised force.

 

Carapace Armour is extremely expensive, but does make your guys immune to Bolters. If you are playing an all Drop Troop army and you intend to Deep Strike your entire army whenever you get the chance, then Carapace Armour can come in handy, otherwise stick to Cameleoline.

 

Now, to compare the two:

 

When looking at Doctrines like Carapace Armour and even cheaper ones like Cameleoline, always weight the benefits of having 30 men with 4+ armour saves (240 points before weapons) vs having 40 men with 5+ saves (also 240 points before weapons). As I've said in the past, most Guard players will opt for the 'more men' option because it's more beneficial to have a bigger model count than expensive Guardsmen.

Another reason I don't take Carapace Armour is because, like Hardened Fighters, taking Carapace Armour is playing to a weakness rather than a strength. Guard are weak, Guard are expendable. Guard belong in cover. Carapace Armour increases their armour save when most of the time Guard are taking cover saves not armour saves. It's a 33.33% increase in the cost of the squad to make up for a weakness in the Guard army.

Now, as I said, throwing points at a weakness in the hope that the weakness will 'go away' once each Guardsman gets expensive enough is a really bad idea. What you should be doing is putting points towards your strengths. Guard, as I said above, should be in cover. Guard often rely on the strength of the cover they are in, getting nice 4+ cover saves against whatever evil nasty guns the enemy can fire against them. So, what do you do? Well, for half the cost of Carapace Armour you can give them Cameleoline. This is an example of throwing points at a strength rather than a weakness. You're in cover already, so why pay 20 points for an increased armour save? Pay half that and get an increased cover save - something you're using all the time - and make your squads even tougher (3+ in 4th Ed with 4+ now being the standard).

It's also far easier to weigh up the benefits vs costs with Cameleoline than it is with Carapace Armour:

5 Squads w/Cameleoline = 350 points before weapons = 50 models with a 3+ cover save.
6 Squads w/o Cameleoline = 360 points before weapons = 60 models with a 4+ cover save.

I'll leave it to you to work out what you like more.

 

Carapace Armour is a Doctrine you should avoid unless you're doing that All Drop Troops army. Cameleoline is a fantastic Doctrine that should be taken if you can justify the cost. 10 points a squad will catch up to you, and if you find yourself spending over 100 points on it you must take a fresh look at your army and decide if an increased cover save is worth more than an extra 20+ men.

 

Cyber-Enhancement: The last Doctrine in the 'Oh my God' category of useless Doctrines, Cyber-Enhancement is about the stupidest thing you could ever do in your Guard army. 20 points, per squad, for your entire army, for a 6+(I) save? WTF? I shouldn't have to explain why this one is stupid.

 

Cyber-Enhancement is a terrible waste of a Doctrine Point should never be taken. It is an insult to your opponent to take such a Doctrine as you're basically admitting to them "I'm a complete moron and you're going to win this without trying". And who wants to win without even trying?

It is, without a shadow of a doubt, the worst Doctrine in the Guard Codex.

 

Warrior Weapons: The last of the 'throw points at a weakness' Doctrines, Warrior weapons allows you to take LP&CCW combo rather than your Lasgun. This would be ok if you didn't have to pay for it, but at 2 points a model that's really expensive.

 

To give you a good comparison, a Guardsman with Warrior Weapons costs 8 points. What also costs 8 points, a Guardian. The Guardian has the same profile 'cept he has a higher leadership, higher initiative and he has Fleet of Foot. Does that seem fair? Does the 8-point Guardsmen seem like he could stand up to such a foe? Of course not!

 

I'll say it one last time - play to your strengths, not your weaknesses. Guard are bad at HTH and good at shooting, so spend points on shooting, not on making them 'better' at HTH.

 

So, I think it should be obvious through this that Warrior Weapons is a big no-no.

 

Warrior Weapons is a terrible waste of a Doctrine Point.

 

 

And so that ends my little spiel on doctrines. Hope you enjoyed it and learnt something about the Imperial Guard Doctrine system. It's a wasted opportunity to bring some spice to Guard armies with various types of armies (much like the equally as horrid Marine Trait system) and the Doctrine system is filled with idiotic options and needless crap that you'll never use. Still, thankfully, there is some gold in there (ID, COD, Drop Troops), and that makes it all worthwhile.

 

BYE


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

Your tactica is stupid and you are a big fat dummy head, HBMC!!!! [/sarcasm] J/K etc...

   
Made in us
Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/24/2007 1:20 AM

Cameleoline is a fantastic Doctrine that should be taken if you can justify the cost. 10 points a squad will catch up to you, and if you find yourself spending over 100 points on it you must take a fresh look at your army and decide if an increased cover save is worth more than an extra 20+ men.

This is one thing that is very evironment specific,(obviously) but it becomes just as compulsory as Iron Discipline or Close order Drill, when you play in City fight environments.

In which case, paying 100+ points for is a steal. 3+ inv for nearly the entire army? Yes please.

   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Thanks, H.B.M.C., I had completely forgotten chamelioline and sharpshooters, which is odd because I use SS on all my heavy weapon squads. I'll also concede that stormtroopers are pretty bad, the only time I had used the doctrine was when I had filled all my troops choices, and I didn't have the models to field vets.

I will stand by grenadiers a little, though. The 96pt plasma battery is good and five points cheaper than it's Inquisitorial brethren. They also count as IG troops if that is ever an issue. Keeping one or two of those little squads in your backfield is nice against Terminators and TMCs. Not essential, but compared to anything else on the list, they're not too bad. Though, as you pointed out, veterans can do the same thing for cheaper. Damn the nice stormtrooper sculpts!
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/24/2007 1:20 AM

Icon Discipline: The single most important Doctrine in the entire Codex,


Well that makes my decisions easier. Thanks HBMC.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Posted By Polonius on 05/24/2007 6:32 AM
Damn the nice stormtrooper sculpts!
Tell me about it. I've got 6 full squads of Kasrkin. Lovley models. Completely worthless in game.

Then again, no matter how bad it may be, I love the idea of an all Inquisitorial Storm Trooper army. I've got the models for it now, so it's just a matter of building a half-way decent list... and then losing horribly to everyone.

BYE


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/24/2007 8:15 AM
Posted By Polonius on 05/24/2007 6:32 AM
Damn the nice stormtrooper sculpts!
Tell me about it. I've got 6 full squads of Kasrkin. Lovley models. Completely worthless in game.

Then again, no matter how bad it may be, I love the idea of an all Inquisitorial Storm Trooper army. I've got the models for it now, so it's just a matter of building a half-way decent list... and then losing horribly to everyone.

BYE


I know, right?  I've got dreams of heavily-modified Chimeras and Rhinos full of those models, all painted up in stark black and red, in an Inquisition army with no marines or Sisters (other than counts-as whatevers).

I just can't find a way to build a half-way decent list...

Inquisitor with servitors as a a firebase?

Exorcists based on Whirlwinds for tank/carnifex-busting?

Meltagun/flamer ISTs in Rhinos and plasma ISTs in Chimeras?

Maybe some inducted SM scouts as IST snipers and an "Inquisitorial" landspeeder with a canopy?




   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Longtime Dakkanaut







HBMC, I've got to disagree with one of your points. Grenadiers.

I'll agree that stormtroopers are worthless compared to hardened vets, but grenadiers have one important difference: they're Troops. They make a useful unit, when given a Chimera. At minimum size, they're cheaper than a well-equipped armored fist squad, and make a half-decent "mobile reserve" dumping a pair of plasma guns off at a reinforcable point. While a hardened vet squad can do this as well, they can't be taken as Troops. Which means that they can't fulfil a compulsory selection requirements.

Furthermore, in a mechanized army, Grenadiers can be even more useful and effective.

"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

Don't settle for the pewter horde! Visit http://www.bkarmypainting.com and find out how you can have a well-painted army quickly at a reasonable price. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

If you want to take Storm Troopers as troops, you take Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. They're the same in every way, except that their Vet Sergeant has better options. Furthermore, they don't require a Doctrine choice.

So unless you need to bring three units of Storm Troopers as troops, Grenadiers have no utility whatsoever. Inquisitorial units are better over-all, and still leave you with 5 Doctrines to play with.

BYE

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/24/2007 6:19 PM
If you want to take Storm Troopers as troops, you take Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. They're the same in every way, except that their Vet Sergeant has better options. Furthermore, they don't require a Doctrine choice.

So unless you need to bring three units of Storm Troopers as troops, Grenadiers have no utility whatsoever. Inquisitorial units are better over-all, and still leave you with 5 Doctrines to play with.

BYE
I think the point he was trying to make was that Grenadiers can fill the 2 compulsory troop requirement slots at a cheap cost.  Inquisitional Stormtroopers taken as allies cannot, you would still need to fill the two compulsory slots.

This is one way to fit multiple Leman Russes into smaller point games without going Armored Company.

"Someday someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you." 
   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Longtime Dakkanaut







Exactly, HBMC. Grenadiers can count as compulsory troop selection(s). Especially in a mechanized army, where the useful doctrines are limited even further, grenadiers allow you to spend less points on troops. For example, my current mech guard doctrine loadout is:



"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

Don't settle for the pewter horde! Visit http://www.bkarmypainting.com and find out how you can have a well-painted army quickly at a reasonable price. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Sorry, my school of thougth has always been 'take more men'. I don't try to find ways to avoid taking Infantry Platoons because I see them as the lifeblood of the Guard.

As far as MechInf in smaller games... I don't usually play them in smaller games, but I can see your point there. Still, I like infantry squads, and I usually take 2 if not more. If I ever need SS support, the Inquisitorial type get the nod of approval before I waste a Doctrine point on them.

BYE

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Hey C99;
Is there a link to go with the above post or am I supposed to be seeing blank space?
cheers
   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Longtime Dakkanaut







My bad. Somehow it got clipped.

Right,, now, I usually use the following doctrines:
Mech
Close order drill
Iron Discipline
Grenadiers
-and-

Either Special Weapon Squads, Sharpshooters, or Rough Riders to flavor

"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

Don't settle for the pewter horde! Visit http://www.bkarmypainting.com and find out how you can have a well-painted army quickly at a reasonable price. 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

I like Grenadiers too. I support the idea of taking Grenadiers if you are taking a Mechanised list. This limited the number of Chinerae you must buy for a legal list.

I very large games Independant Commissars leading Conscripts act as a very good tarpit. I have heard of conscripts tie up biotitans and at those points levels the 50+pts forn a Commissar is easily swallowed.

Cameleoline is a wonderful doctrine, I saw a Guard infantry army survive withering firepower from Tau in cityfight because of cameleoline, they were taking it like marines, in fact better bvecause the ion cannon bounced too. It is great because the only cover negating weaponry, Crisis flamers and Airburst frag are rarely taken.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Posted By Orlanth on 05/25/2007 10:21 AM
This limited the number of Chinerae you must buy for a legal list.
Chimeras are good Light Tanks? Why would you want to limit the ones you have to buy?

BYE


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Woodbridge, VA

I've got to agree with the prvious statement, Iron Discipline is by far the best doctrine available to IG. For 46 points, SHO with Iron D/standard and JO with Honorifica/Iron D, my gun line is nearly unbreakable. Add in Drop Troops, Hardened Vets, and Close Order Drill, it gets really fun. For a fifth, it's usually Light Infantry, as most of the US GT scenarios have Infiltrate and that's what I'm gearing towards.

Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/25/2007 5:57 PM
Posted By Orlanth on 05/25/2007 10:21 AM
This limited the number of Chinerae you must buy for a legal list.
Chimeras are good Light Tanks? Why would you want to limit the ones you have to buy?

BYE


To leave room for other stuff?

It's awful hard to take anything except Chimeras and Infantry when you're place Mechanized at 1,000 points. With Grenadiers you can fit in some other tanks too.
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Yes, Chimerae are best in numbers, but even better if you still have room for some Hellhounds and Russes.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





If I had to choose between Chimeras, Russes, and Hellhounds, hellhounds would be on the bottom of my list.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: