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So, with the USGT season coming to an end in <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Baltimore</st1:place></st1:city> in a couple of months, I need to plan on what army I am going to take.

 

I like a challenge, so I was wondering what armies have the hardest time winning a GT?

 

I am talking about is what codex (not sub-lists like pure Grey Knights from the Demonhunters codex).

 

I was thinking that Orks would be hard, but Marc Parker did it a couple of years ago with Feral Orks (Not that I want to collect an Ork army just before the codex gets released).

 

My money would be on Demonhunters with their lack of AT, and their Grey Knights with a MEQ profile, but costing almost twice as much.

 

So what do you think?

 

Has anyone come close with Witchhunters? Imperial Guard?

I think the bottom two have to be Daemonhunters and IG. Orks, especially ferals, can get lucky for a few games, and their play style makes objective missions easier. Witchunters pack enough great units (cannoness, Exorcist, seraphim) to challenge nearly any army out there, but can have massive problems against mech eldar (though not must worse than any other army). I've never heard much, but between Exocists, evisorators, and Divine Guidance, even Nidzilla has to be a little worried.

Daemonhunters simply cannot run with any top list. SAFH marines will light them up, Eldar will avoid them, win a few assaults, and never seriously worrya bout losing their falcons. Nids will try to stay away from the termies, but will be able to move and shoot enough to easily wipe out any stormtroopers, can nearly ignore the callidus, and will simply have fun shooting slow, expensive marines.

IG are arguably tougher than Daemonhunters, Witchunters, and Orks, yet I think you would have a hard time winning a GT with them, for the simple reason that you cannot generally get big wins with them. Too many squads are easily destroyed (heavy weapon squads, for example), and even decent HtH units will carve a hole in the lines. I know players have come close, but in general IG is too fragile and erratic to win big 4 time or more.

For similar reasons, I think Necrons would have troubles: they lose all their close games due to phase out. Couple in the immediate hit you'll probobly get in soft scores by folks who hate Necrons, and you start out in the hole.

I have to agree. The Daemon Hunters have a problem against almost every army. The learning curve is pretty high. Not to say there aren't some great players out there who have great armies but against another experienced player it is tough. Although the most annoying thing about them for me is when I get a squad of Harlequins incinerated. And occasionally my pathfinders can't see them. But there is much more than that to my army.

Orion

I would say Daemon hunters are the most difficult followed by IG, then Witch Hunters. I have won many RTT's with IG but I have never tested their might in a GT for the very reason that they can't win big. IG can win games, but winning big is extremely difficult for them. Additionally, now more than ever, the IG lists are going to have to field Inquisitors, just to try to compete with some of the tougher lists out there. I hate that since I believe every codex should be able to stand on their own. However, IG haven't been able to do that in 4th edition. Once they took away assaulting out of transports, and screening...it pretty much reduced any effective counter assault units to close to zero.

Capt K

You could always try to prove to the masses that you can make the top 10% or higher with the Dark Angels Codex.  It's pretty much universally despised.

....I've figured out a very original way to make it work, but I'm saving it for next year's GT's.  No good for Adepticon missions, but great otherwise.

Having gone 5-0 in RTT at my LGS I can state that Witchhunters have the units to make a competative list. Winners were matched against winners, and I was able to smash a Nidzilla army in round 5 that was destroying all opposition. With proper use of seraphim and hit and run, it is possible to avoid combat nearly the entire game even at rapidfire range (and 50 divineguidanced shots will damper a carnifex). Funny thing was the only thing that hurt me was composition scoring.

However, I realize winning a GT is different; You have to win big, score a few crushing victories, etc. While I feel Witchhunters can do this, I do not see how IG can win without taking some serious casualties. I'd probably put more faith in Daemonhunters, if only because in the right circumstances they can survive returning fire much better.

the real issue for IG at a GT is terrain, or more specifically lack there of.

 

IG are a terrain hugging army and with so little terrain at GT tables it really hurts thier most effective defense-cover saves with cameleoline. with decent terrain they have marine like saves with double the numbers, without it they are either going mechanised and using thier soon to be destroyed chimera's as terrain or going full armored company(which scored in the top 3 IIRC at the last seattle GT i went to).

DH aren't as bad as people think, you just have to play them like deathwing-IE dreads for fire support and as many terminators with gear as you can pack into the list with a couple minned storm trooper squads for troops. . you'll be outnumbered everytime but it is possible to win with the use of good strategy.

I would agree with the DaemonHuneters. But I've placed as high as 5th and finished in the top 10 several times with IG (And 2nd place Best General at Balt GT 2005.) so I'm not sure I agree about a lack of competitiveness on their part.

Don "MONDO"

Er...kroot mercs?

No?

Ok then do daemonhunters. Not because they're necessarily the worst, but because they're awesome.

I'm going to say the current orks. Not feral orks, but just the codex you buy in the store. They've just been ignored by the power creep for too long. Orks vs. a currently competitive list like Nidzilla?

It might be that I"m overlooking some hidden gems in the codex, but I'd take my hat off to anyone who bought that little green book, and won the GT using only the units contained within.

Anything but chaos, tyranids, and eldar. If you are going just by GT 2007 results, 4th edition rules, any army other than those three would be considered a challenge. You would need a battle score of 70+ to have a shot. Heck, vanilla marines would be a challenge. They dominate the GT armies in numbers, but only one finished in the top 3.  @ Chicago, out of 45 marine players, not one scored 70+ battle points!
@ LVGT an IG army finished with 80 battle points, his painting and sports killed him. Another one scored 70 battle points. So no real challenge there, as someone proved it can be done.  An ork player scored a 70, but again, painting killed him.  A necron scored a 74 and  Dark Eldar scored an 80 and a 74.  Even a Witchunter scored a 70.

Feral Orks and Speed Freaks are sub lists.
Codex Orks armies suck the big 'un.
I can see Grey Knights having serious trouble in a tournie, because they are specialist Daemon hunters.

Non-godzilla tyranids. Especially warrior-heavy tyranids. Or guard.

I second Dark Angels (well, duh). I've been waiting for a competent player to take them to a GT to really test the mettle of the army.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Dark Angels is definitely the worst codex in the current edition, even worse than Daemonhunters in my book.

You've got to be insane if you think IG would be hard to win with. They're in the second tier of power in the current edition with Tau and Necrons IMHO. Even with GT terrain I'm doubting they would have any serious problems. Just build your list for it.

Their Mechanized list is just insanely good. The gunline is OK. The light infantry army is pretty good.

They actually do well against Godzilla Tyranids and Eldar both, unlike almost every other army out there now.

I'd say if you want to prove you're awesome, play Dark Angels.

Then why haven't we seen an IG army come close to winning a GT since 4ed? I think only don mondo came remotely close awhile back IIRC. It might be easy (or better, they might be a sleeper army in the right hands) but it would still be impressive to win a GT with em.

Like others my vote is daemonhunters but without allies. Throw in allies and it's not really a daemonhunter army. Atleast we've seen an extreme shooty ork build do well at the UK GT (and yakface did well also but that was early 4ed). Rare to see DH get in top 25.

"Dark Angels is definitely the worst codex in the current edition, even worse than Daemonhunters in my book. "

A Dark Angel player finished 8th overall @ LAGD.  His battle score of 43 out of 60 was in the top 10 battle scores.  Equivalent to a low 70 GT score.

Also, a Daemonhunter player finished 5th overall.  His battle score was 50, top 3 battle score.

@winterman

An IG player finished in the overall top 10 in the LVGT with a 70 battle point score.  Another guard player scored an 80 for battle points, but his paint was a 10.  At the Baltimore GD, an IG player scored a 53 battle point, the 4th highest overall, his painting and sports were abyssmal.

To be fair I was using allies and inquisitors, no grey knights

I think I can win, or at least get a score of 70+ battle points with Dark Angeles.

I would be tempted to play them, but I have no interest in buying, and collecting the army.

Are people seriously saying that Dark Angels are worse than run of the mill footslogging orks?
Damn, I

Ya dornfist, was recalling more of previous years and not this year, although the fact that it was Marc Parker playing DH with allies doesn't change my opinion of them (and that he didn't win yet another GT with em ) . As far as IG, glad to see someone doing ok with em. Still doesn't change the fact they haven't won a GT in recent memory (and prolly wouldn't have even with perfect soft scores).

Pure DH would get killed...if you're looking for a challenge, though, I think you'll find taking them more of an exercise in futility than something you could possibly win with.

I think Kroot mercs are weak, too, but at least things could go your way in some battles. Would be a fun change for your opponents, too, and they're fairly easy to paint.

Posted By dumbuket on 08/28/2007 9:38 AM
Non-godzilla tyranids.

 

You mean like the very last GT (Chicago GT) that was won by Centurian99 using a stealer shock force?

 

Anyway, I don't understand how Feral Orks got lumped in with regular Orks. They are a totally different army (as Da Boss pointed out).

A pure DH army would definitely be the hardest army to win a tournament with but the only reason to run a "pure" army is for fluff reasons. The DH book allows you to take IG allies and there isn't any (non-fluff) reason not to besides a desire to put a hopelessly outclassed army on the table.

But if you're trying to go with an army that you can take anything allowed out of the codex, I think you have to go with standard foot-slogging Orks. They will give the biggest challenge and you can send them off on a final hurrah before the new codex comes in January.

 

i don't know how they would do at a GT but my newest list re-write of my DA army has gone fully mechanised(bikes, speeders, whirlwinds, a raider, and venerable dreads) and i have 6 wins and zero losses in the league i am in against normal DAs, IG, mechanized IG and eldar.

Blackmoor, if you are serious about your intital assertion, you need to paint an army up to a 30 point level standard. Since orks are getting a new codex, that seems counterproductive as you will probably lose some productive units or hate the codex completely, although I feel that orks can do the job against nidzilla with rokkits and powerclaws. Go with Dark Eldar. Statistically, they have the greatest chance of scoring enough battle points to compete for best general and they are rarely used. There was not a single DE player @ Chicago.

Do you have a space marine army? Statiscally, they are your biggest challenge to score, as everyone builds their army anti-MEQ. Personally, I would love to see a loyalist marine or guard win the whole thing instead of some alien!

Witchhunters are plenty powerful, you just never see them because of the cost of the army. My friend won the LA Games Day with them in 2006.

IG can bang with the big dogs, but like people said, its hard to minimize your own loses which can make a big win tough to pull off. Plus, all it takes is one good close combat MODEL making it into HtH with your gunline and you are looking at a rough game.

Dark Eldar are a very powerful army, and they can do well against Nidzilla, but Mech Eldar would probably table them with all of the high strength multi shot weapons they can pack on mobile platforms.

If you want to impress people though, a win with foot sloggin orcs or dark angels would do the trick. The only time i have seen a foot slogging orc player do well was the UKGT last year, i think it was Spikey David that made it to the finals.

It's my experience that rokkits are a very unreliable choice against pretty much anything. You'll only hit one shot in 3, against the heavy fexes this will wound 2 out of three and they still get a save. Sure, against the dakka fexes the chances are better, until they return fire and blow you apart. Barbed Stranglers mulch large mobs, small mobs have difficulty hanging around and the assault units a nid player can bring are just plain better than Orks. Power claws are very expensive, and tend to crap out in my experience, and a six inche move does not help you catch the damn fexes. Against an intelligent opponent I would expect to get brutally killed, against a fool i might win, but they'd have to be a real fool and I'd have to be very lucky.

Against mech eldar you have nothing that can reliably hit falcons, much less bring them down, except the very vunerable zzap gun which is easily outranged and destroyed.

Against marines you have your best chance, because orks ares stupidly unbalanced versus marines (all of their special rules being designed to murder them), but you still have no answer to assault cannons or even massed, accurate bolter fire.

To be fair the compatition at that particular games day was prety light. I took third with a deathwing army that day.

Edit:  o, and that was the day I got dinged for comp with my pure deathwing force. The guy didnt like my heavy flamer squad.

Im gonna have to say a pure deathwing army would be about as hard to win with as they come. But as Yakface pointed out if you allow the entire codex then the prize goes to orcs.

I have to agree, the new Deathwing just blow. If someone could win with a pure, new deathwing list i would truly be amazed.

Maybe I will do a Dark Angels army.

I have 2 RTTs coming up, and I will see if I can win them for some prizes.

If I do go with Dark Angels, that is a lot of work for a 30-35 point painting scare that will just go to ebay the week after the GT