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A simple question, really. How should one go about kitting out a Chaos Lord in the new codex? I was thinking Wings, Dual LCs, and the Mark o' Khorne. In smaller point games I might just lose the wings and attach him to a havoc squad full of flamers for extra assaulty goodness.

any other ideas on how to kit out the Lord?

I played versus one on Tuesday with a Khorne lord in term armor with a demon weapon and 4 term vets with lightning claws.

Yes its a huge point sink but on the turn I charged them with harlies I killed three and my opponent still had 5 lightning claw attacks and the lord rolled 9 for a total of 13 attacks alone. Suffice to say my 6 harlies were wiped out completely.

Orion

With the loss of my speed lord, I built a terminator lord with chainfist for a tough counter-assault killer. In the new codex he looks like ...

Chaos Lord - MoK, chainfist, twin-bolter, terminator armor

Unfortunately, with no rerolls and a massive 4 attaks he has consistently under-performed. As such, I'm getting a demon prince like ...

Demon Prince - MoS, warptime

Still slow, but much tougher, faster, and killier. AND cheaper too.  So the termi gets to play on the shelf so the obviously better choice can take the field :S

Seems to me that if you want to run a chaos lord, you have to want to take a demon weapon or 2x claws to take advantage of the WS6. Otherwise, sorcerer or demon prince with warptime all the way if it's combat prowess you want.

- Salvage

Daemon Weapon of Khorne = 1/3 chance of standing there and wounding yourself each round of combat = no thanks.

The other ones are harsh too- 1/6 chance is still awful, but I could see using one in a non-tournament list. Can hit hard in a fun game, but over the course of a three to five game tournament, you're almost guaranteed for it to bite you at a bad time at least once.

Lightning Claws are definitely a better option. Powerfist is decent too, though it wastes the high initiative.

Wings are basically mandatory for mobility.

My lord is setup as follows:

Lord
MoK
SoK
Daemon Weapon

He lags behind the rhino rush and tries desperately to get in melee combat. Then he wounds himself and dies to outnumbering saves. More rarely he'll roll adequately and slaughter his kill zone.

The Juggernaught is probably a personal idiosynchracy, but I urge you to give the BloodFeeder a try. The 2/3 of the time you don't hurt yourself you'll lay a beatdown on just about anything.

not a third
36 possible rolls only 11 prevent you from attacking
so 30.6%

the khorne lord would work well with the buddy system 2 flighty lords with wings and demon weapons. near a squad of khorne raptors.

 

I am having difficulties with the new chaos entirely. the old codex was just to good. I could be the lack of playing time and the pressure of the hardboyz regional.

The problem I have trying to buddy up my Khorne Lord is his I5. This means when he goes off he'll steal the kill zone of all his buddies (due to the mass casualties inflicted by the Khornate daemon weapon). I've had better success having him kind of roll up among rhinos that aren't currently vital, they are closer so enemies can't target him, they can tank shock to shove enemies into his charge range, position so that even if they die they still block LOS to him.

A lot of him is the dread. He's a whole flank for under 200 points, because no unit wants to suddenly have him run up and kill 10 of them.

Mark of Slaanesh + steed = speed lord. Granted, you can't tool him up or infiltrate him as before but I6 and LCs ain't bad.

I see next to no reason to take a Lord over a Daemon Prince, honestly.

The four T5 wounds with an invulnerable save and no instakilling is just so great, even if you can't be shielded by Ic rules.

Righto on the slaanesh steed lord, but need to get me a tit maggot first

- Salvage

I'm actually a fan of the Lord with a Daemon Weapon & Jump Pack, unmarked. With STR 5 PW, 8/9 attack (5/6 of time). At I5, he can cut through most anything. Sucks when the "1" is rolled and I'm sure it will be at the worst time. But otherwise, it's pretty powerful IMO.

Lord, MOK, lighting claws, jug of korn combi melta/melta bombs optinal. 6 attacks base, str 5 reroll to wound.

Over all I have to agree that deamon princes seem the better buy no mater what, but its nice to play something differnt now and then.

Posted By Longshot on 09/27/2007 11:53 AM
I see next to no reason to take a Lord over a Daemon Prince, honestly.

The four T5 wounds with an invulnerable save and no instakilling is just so great, even if you can't be shielded by Ic rules.

If you build the new stock Daemon Prince using the third ed book it comes out to over 180 points, including the 35 pt daemonic rune.

Anyone wonder why a chaos lord in terminator armour and lightning claws has fewer rerolls, often less strength [due to Furious charge they can take if in a squad] and fewer attacks than Imperial commanders?

 

Oh!  Oh!  But we have WS6!  That makes up for all of it, right?  ><

Forget about power, I miss the customizability of our former lords and sorcerors.  Designing a character based on a background story or nifty model conversion = win. 

-Spellbound

Considering how customizable and the base state line compared to the "new" heroes of DA and BA, Chaos players still have it better of when building that custom character.

I think a lot of people are overlooking the Tzeentch Lord w/ Deamon Weapon and Terminator Armor. Through him in with a 5-man Terminator Unit w/ Icon of Tzeentch and you have a pretty resilient unit with a good shooting punch when they deepstrike. Plus the fact that you can make up for not getting the extra D6 attacks with Warp Time. Not to mention being able to take things like Gift of Chaos to help add to your numbers.

"I see next to no reason to take a Lord over a Daemon Prince, honestly."

I don't agree, its all about IC status. I'm not convinced the Daemon Prince is hardy enough to survive being singled out for enemy attention.

Lord, Bike, MoK, Powerfist
Prince, Wings, MoK

Daemon Prince:
Cheaper by 15 points
strikes at I 5
strikes at ws 7
Immune to instant death

Chaos Lord:
IC
Strikes at s 8
Has grenades for cover assaults
Turbo-boost

For my 2 cents, both are adequate versions of a tough Khorne army leader. I'm not saying the Chaos Lord is always better, but I think it isn't a clear-cut enough distinction to dismiss them entirely.

Now, if melee combat isn't what you want from your HQ, then the comparison will be between the Sorcerer and the Daemon Prince, but that's for another topic.

He's rocking a fist, so am I wrong to think frags don't matter?


I might run my old kai gun AC model as a MoT lord w/ demon weapon. Lend his D6 BS5 S4 shooting attaks and/or 3+D6 WS5 S4 combat attaks when needed.

- Salvage

Posted By 40kenthusiast on 09/28/2007 7:29 AM
"I see next to no reason to take a Lord over a Daemon Prince, honestly."

I don't agree, its all about IC status. I'm not convinced the Daemon Prince is hardy enough to survive being singled out for enemy attention.

Lord, Bike, MoK, Powerfist
Prince, Wings, MoK

Daemon Prince:
Cheaper by 15 points
strikes at I 5
strikes at ws 7
Immune to instant death

Chaos Lord:
IC
Strikes at s 8
Has grenades for cover assaults
Turbo-boost

For my 2 cents, both are adequate versions of a tough Khorne army leader. I'm not saying the Chaos Lord is always better, but I think it isn't a clear-cut enough distinction to dismiss them entirely.

Now, if melee combat isn't what you want from your HQ, then the comparison will be between the Sorcerer and the Daemon Prince, but that's for another topic.

Um, the Prince attacks first and the PF guy attacks last.

Also, your Lord isn't immune to instadeath to powerfists. Which he goes simultaneously with. Woops.

A single prince with wings is fairly easy to hide, particularly if you run vehicles, but even if you don't. He's simply so cheap you don't care if people shoot him. 120-155pts for a guy who can eat a minimum of 6 lascannon shots before dying (6 shots, 4 hits, 4 wounds) not counting his invulnerable save or failures to wound. Tell me some other model that can soak that many shots for that many points? Dakkafex is the only one, and Dakkafexes don't fly or win combats or lash.

I guess we have a different idea of the usefulness of IC status. I'm a big fan. Must be because I'm used to Necrons, where we basically don't have any, and my idea of a durable MC is a C'tan.

For my Chaos Lord I've built the new Khorne Lord in riding position, and built a bike and a dreadnought, depending on whether he's being an Icon Torpedo or a counterattacker.

You mean a juggernaut? Cause a Khorne lord riding a marauding dreadnought is really hella awesome

- Salvage

It can be very useful. But I don't think it's useful to justify a model that's worse at combat, not as resilient in combat, not as resilient to shooting, and more expensive. IC protection is not a sovereign solution and fast enemies can bypass it or severely restrict your movement.

Plus, your Lord will die before he gets to strike if charged, so is effective in far fewer situations (e.g. you cannot use him aggressively if your enemy has a credible countercharge unit defending his guys). Heck he could die to being charged by Kroot if he got unlucky (3 wounds, T5, 3+ save?).

For Khorne, especially, two flying princes is a must imho (or one prince and a lash sorcerer to support, if you're not going purely Khorne). They're just a better buy for close combat than anything else in the army including Berserkers (6 berserkers with a powerfist vet is the cost of a daemon prince, who is tougher and better at combat and faster).

I'd think the best gear for a Chaos Lord would be some pom poms and a seat on the sideline to a battle being led by a Daemon Prince or Chaos Sorceror.

The HQ in a Chaos list are just vehicles for getting Lash of Submission on the table. Choose between a Daemon or a Sorceror, but if it doesn't have Lash, then go re-read the Lash rules.

Also, no matter who it is, the rule remains true: No Power Fists on ICs. There's no such thing as ICs that strike last, because ICs that strike last are actually called "ICs that die before they strike."

that is why i will miss the old way of a fist and a power weapon

Sadly Ork warbosses are saddled with them and that looks like it won't change anytime soon.

Though we're gonna be T5(6) now.

I think taking two Lashes are not going to fair you well in any tournament that uses Sportsmanship or composition.

I also think that the Deamon Prince is not the de-facto choice as everyone is thinking. With only toughness 5 and 4 wounds I think it can be killed rather early in the game. Even with the Invulnerable Save it's not as survivable as the Avatar or Canifexes. I am not saying that it isn't effective, but I think that the Chaos Lord still has a place and uses.

First you have to examine the overall composition of your force. I think a Chaos Lord is Mandatory if you plan to field any Terminators. Also he can provide IC close combat support for Chosen and Possessed. His utility and the massive amount of options leave his a place in the list. Here are a few builds I came up with.

Chaos Lord w/ MoK, Terminator Armor, Deamon Weapon = 145 Points
- Good Support for a Unit of Terminators and the Icon of Khorne

Chaos Lord w/ MoS, Steed, Deamon Weapon = 165 Points
- Perfect Support for an EC gunline, his IC status keeps him protected, then suddenly he jumps out and kills anything trying to reach your lines. He may be only Str. 4, but every wound he causes cause Instand Death!

There are others too. A Mark of Nurgle Terminator Lord w/ a Deamon Weapon always wounds on a 4+. A Tzeentch Lord can augment the shooting of a Terminator Squad and all of them have 4+ Inv. saves (if the Terminators have the Icon).

I wouldn't count out the Lord just yet. I think he is a great secondary HQ.

Around here people tend to give you sports based on your sportsmanship (e.g. the way you play) rather than your list, but that isn't the case everywhere I guess. I don't think two lash princes is going to ruin your chances any more than 3 falcons will though, tbh.

Remember he's T5, 4 wounds, with a 3+/5+ and wings. Carnifexes don't get wings, which makes them much less survivable. Wings = flying behind terrain, engaged faster, etc.

Chaos Lord mandatory with terminators? Why? Termies are for shooting and mild counter-assault. If you need more assault in a terminator squad, 5-6 more terminators is always going to be a better choice than a Chaos Lord, and much shootier as well. Utility? massive number of options? Meh. He can be made anywhere in the range of "really crappy" to "mildly craptastic" and I wouldn't call that a bucket of options, much less any options I would want to tank.

I would call him a barely adequate secondary HQ, eclipsed by anything else you can buy in the list that is already going to be starved for numbers because none of the model-count-providing units other than raptors are worth buying.

Nothing the Lord can do wouldn't be better done with more raptors or more terminators, or a Daemon prince or a sorcerer.

Here are some indisputable edges for the Lord over the Prince.

Icon. He's got one, prince doesn't.
Terrain: Between not being size 3, not being 6 inches tall, having grenades, and his indy character move through cover/skilled rider abilities he handles terrain much better than the big guy.
Indy character, can't be shot unless he's the closest.
Bike. He can be more mobile than the Prince.
Ride in transport. He can do it, Prince can't.
Start on the Board in Escalation. He can do it, Prince can't.

Here are some edges for the Prince over the lord:

Better statline: As long as the Lord is staying cheaper, the Prince fights better
Scoring unit: The Prince is a scoring unit, the Lord can't even get a retinue to become one.
LOS blocker: The Prince can do it, the Lord can't.
Psychic powers: The Prince can use them, the Lord can't

Aren't greater daemons scoring units too?

Posted By 40kenthusiast on 10/01/2007 12:20 PM
Here are some indisputable edges for the Lord over the Prince.

Icon. He's got one, prince doesn't.
Terrain: Between not being size 3, not being 6 inches tall, having grenades, and his indy character move through cover/skilled rider abilities he handles terrain much better than the big guy.
Indy character, can't be shot unless he's the closest.
Bike. He can be more mobile than the Prince.
Ride in transport. He can do it, Prince can't.
Start on the Board in Escalation. He can do it, Prince can't.

Icon - daemons are kinda questionable in this edition, and I would hazard a guess that if you're close enough to be wanting to summon daemons next turn you're close enough to be murdered by close range firepower. T5 with a 3+ save does not make you immune to bolters.

Terrain - Flying guy flies over terrain. Admittedly he doesn't want to fly into terrain, but flying over it is certainly better than walking through it (though not necessarily biking through it).

Bike - Eh, it's pretty damned expensive for what it is.

Ride in transport - Because we've learned from 4e that putting your expensive characters in transports is a great idea.

Start on the board in Escalation - good point, but I think if you play board edges correctly the flying in from the short board edge is pretty darned nice. Plus, it's far easier to make an effective army that starts entirely off the board in escalation in Chaos's list than it is to make one that starts entirely on the table. Plus if you buy a bike or wings (and you always should) you're no longer on the table with a Lord.

And regarding the main advantage for having a daemon prince, an extra 150pt flying scoring unit with 4 wounds in the HQ slot is pretty damned amazing.