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I think the deamon prince is the better bet. S4 sucks.

- G

Posted By Green Bloater on 10/01/2007 2:19 PM
I think the deamon prince is the better bet. S4 sucks.

- G

Lightning Claws.

Hmmm... the only reason I would take a Lord over a Daemon Prince (in my not-yet-started-or-ever Chaos army) would be cause the Terminator Lord with dual LC's just looks so darned cool.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I've found MoK, wings and lightning claws to be a great outfitting for my Khorne Lord. I usually to run him with my raptors with an IoK, together they tent to butcher most things in an assault.

Local metagame will always vary from place to place. If I was going to Adepticon, there is no way I would take dual Lash princes in anything but the Gladiator. If you can get away with it, then more power too you, but since this is a public board, some people may be concerned with it.

Personally I find fielding two Lashes a bit excessive. I think you can do just as well with the Chaos list with one or none, depending upon what you field.



Wings does give you manuverablity and there is no reason to field a DP without them. He will still have troubles assaulting units in terrain (in case the Lash didn't go off, or the terrain was too deep). And he will still be fliying around with a big target painted on his face. He could take it, but against Nidzilla, or Shooty Marines, he could probably be whittled down enough to where he only gets one good round of combat before being swamped by a decent sized unit with a powerfist. I am not saying that he is not effective, I am saying that he may not be as good as everybody is claiming.



I believe he is mandatory, especially if you plan to field a larger squad, you suddenly can turn a mildly good Assault unit into a Superb one with a verity of combinations. You can take ten Chaos Terminators with the Icon of Khorne and join them with a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor, Mark of Nurgle, Deamon Weapon. Now you have a unit that has 4 Attacks each on the charge each with either Str. 4 Powerweapons or Str. 8 Powerfists, backed by a character with 5-9 Powerweapon attacks that always wound on a 4+. Sure that may cost you 500-600 points but try and stop that from eating up a flank themselves, even Nidzilla can fear that unit.



Deamons can be great distraction units, or a unit that can tie up a close combat or gunline until the crazy guys get in there. The Lord has IC status so if he is that close, you can bet he is either with a unit or there is another unit closer. Besides, with the new rules you can be 12"+ away and still be in range (first deamon deepstrikes within 6", you wrap the ones in a circle to get closer, then a 6" assault).



I think the important thing is charging into it, without grenades the DP may be facing a few power weapon or rending attacks before he gets to strike, and he is only Toughness 5.



Transports and bikes are kinda iffy. I have heard people thinking of using Land Raiders because of their price.



That is a pretty good advantage and another reason why every choas list will always have at least one.



People already mentioned Lighting Claws, but there is the Nurgle Deamon weapon too, if it concerns you that much. The DP is the Character killer HQ, a Choas Lord will always be better off against infantry anyways, where his Deamon Weapon number of attacks and the unit he is with can cut holes out of your enemy's lines.

Like I said, I am not argueing the better choice. The purpose of this thread was equipping the Chaos Lord, and where he can be effective. I think there is still a place for him in the list. Besides, multiple Lashes on Multiple Deamon Princes, seem to unimaginative in the context of an army list. I don't think they are necessary to win games or have an effective army list.

I don't see how this is so good. 500-600 points for a "Superb" assault unit is really not all that. And why should 'nidzilla fear it when all it will do is kill one MC per turn of combat, and in order to get to that combat will have to either walk there, 'port in (and stand around for a turn), or ride in something that will bump their cost up by another 40-50%? 2 squads of Harlies in Falcons would be twice as effective at 700 points, and would devastate your uber CC unit to boot. Of course, it's not as if you're able to take Harlies in Falcons, but shouldn't you be playing to the army's strengths?

Question: why take a Lord at all when you could take a Fzorglorcerer?

This is another subject, but I think it would be pretty darn hard to take out a ten man Chaos Terminator Squad. Personally, if I where to field that squad I would take the Icon of Tzeentch. Total cost of that unit = 425 points (w/ 2 Reapers and 4 Powerfists)

6 Harlequins charging 24 Attacks (3.84 Rend, 1.92 Dead Terminators) 20.16 attacks left, 10.08 wound, 1.6 Dead Terminators = 3.52 Dead Terminators (roughly 149.6 points of damage)

6 Terminators left 2 w/ PW, 4 w/ PF

Terminators w/ Power Weapons 4 attacks standing still, 2 hit, 1.32 die
Terminators w/ Powerfist 8 attacks standing still, 4 hit, 2.64 die
= Total of 3.96

So it becomes equal damage, numbers wise, though the Terminators took more damage points wise, but now the 2 Harlies left are outnumbered 3 to 1 and below half, so it is probable that they will fail their leadership and get run over.

So a big squad of terminators can absorb the charge of the most feared MEQ assaulter's in the game. Good stuff.

Also some more math.

Choas Lord w/ Terminator Armor, Mark of Nurgle, Deamon Weapon (165 points)

Chaos Lord charges with an average of 8 attacks, 5.28 Hit, 2.64 Wounds

A big squad of Termies that cost 425 points can absorb a charge from the most feared assault unit in the game that costs 162 points--but still loses more than it gains. Not exactly a great showing. It should also be noted that the example used earlier had to do with Khornate Termies, which would not fare as well in taking casualties.

Edit: Also, with combat tied, no one's going anywhere.

Posted By Mahu on 10/02/2007 12:56 PM

6 Harlequins charging 24 Attacks (3.84 Rend, 1.92 Dead Terminators) 20.16 attacks left, 10.08 wound, 1.6 Dead Terminators = 3.52 Dead Terminators (roughly 149.6 points of damage)

So it becomes equal damage, numbers wise, though the Terminators took more damage points wise, but now the 2 Harlies left are outnumbered 3 to 1 and below half, so it is probable that they will fail their leadership and get run over.

Not by models in termie armor they won't (no sweeping advance). Though I don't think they can re-group below half so a bit irrelevant.

Not sure on what average you are using for your rending calculation, most people say 24 attacks averages at 4 rends (1 in 6).

Posted By Ozymandias on 10/01/2007 4:32 PM
Hmmm... the only reason I would take a Lord over a Daemon Prince (in my not-yet-started-or-ever Chaos army) would be cause the Terminator Lord with dual LC's just looks so darned cool.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

As good a reason as any.

Not being a massive tourney player, I have the luxary of playing with random stuff I like the look of, rather than having to optimise all the time.

I'll probably end up using both, depending how I feel on the day.

I'm not really following, but it looks like Terminators do just fine against Harlies. Losing 150 points to take out 162, as a reactionary move is not just pretty good, that's a mistake on your opponent's part.

Instead of recieving the charge, those same Terminators could deepstrike and shoot them, they could also deepstrike behind a falcon and blow it to smitherines.

*looks back*

OK, I see how this came up. Terminators of Slannesh are I5, and if you pay an extra 20 pts you get a 3 attack base Termie w/ TL LC, same as a Chaos Lord. Want more attacks? Just add more terminators, like was said above. If I had bought the army box, I would have used the Terminator Lord as a champ in that squad. Or maybe a Sorceror just because the kit is THAT COOL.

Terminator armour doesn't allow sweeping advance, it should always give you +1 Attack. Boo GW.

Did some math -

A slaanesh lord on a steed charging with a daemon weapon and rolling a 6.....

 

Does as well versus marines as an old chaos lord at S4 with lightning claws, master-crafting and spikey bits.

Without S5, additional attacks, and rerolls like before lords just pale in comparison to their normal selves, and rolling a 5 now will only do as well as an Imperial Commander.  Ugh.

 

Prince for me, thanks.

-Spellbound

Tacobake, really, what are the odds of 1) Harlies being left to wander the battlefield outside a Falcon and 2) actually destroying the Falcon by deepstriking in and having one turn of shooting? A more realistic scenario is that your Termies get charged by two squads of Harlies and wiped out before they can strike, or they get shot up by FDs and then charged by Harlies, with much the same result. Of course, that isn't fair points-wise, since ~400 points of Falcons are involved in delivering this attack, but the point is that that power can be easily brought to bear on your uber unit, while your uber unit cannot easily bring its power to bear on its intended prey. I would still advocate small, cheap squads of Termies over a big BT-esque clump.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 10/03/2007 3:32 AM
Tacobake, really, what are the odds of 1) Harlies being left to wander the battlefield outside a Falcon and 2) actually destroying the Falcon by deepstriking in and having one turn of shooting? A more realistic scenario is that your Termies get charged by two squads of Harlies and wiped out before they can strike, or they get shot up by FDs and then charged by Harlies, with much the same result. Of course, that isn't fair points-wise, since ~400 points of Falcons are involved in delivering this attack, but the point is that that power can be easily brought to bear on your uber unit, while your uber unit cannot easily bring its power to bear on its intended prey. I would still advocate small, cheap squads of Termies over a big BT-esque clump.

That's what I was trying to say:  that situation of six harlies attacking 10 tzeentch terminators would be a mistake on the Eldar player's part.

Just to respond, I thought the termies would have had a good chance at destroying the Falcon.  Two Reapers + 8 Plasma/Melta shots.  Call it 1 S7 Plasma shot each.

4*8/9 + 8*4/6 ~= 9 hits, 4 or 5 glances on AV 10.

Maybe not.  If they were within 12" or had Melta guns you could get around seven glances.

I'll agree regarding the smaller size squads of terminators.  The point of the 10 man tzeentch squad isn't to deepstrike but to be on the table firing the reapers from the beginning, as a single elites choice.  Even then I'd personally prefer a 3/4 man squad probably deep striking or a 6 man combi/close combat squad.

Pity you can't take 1 Reaper for every 3 models instead of 5.

The Chaos Terminators would also have Lesser Deamon support to receive charges and may even get of a round of shooting if they deepstrike close enough. So those situational activities aside, the best comparison is a unit on unit comparison, and I gave the Harlequins the charge for the benefit of the doubt and would likely be the scenario. Also I didn't factor in the Chaos Lord that would be attached, as that unit would have most certainly killed the Harlequins, which is a very good thing.

BTW, Khorne Terminators versus Harlequins would work out the same, the Khorne Terminators loose one more casualty because of the worst invulnerable save, but the extra attacks each kills an extra Harlie. The one that fairs the worst against Harlies is Slaneesh Terminators as the points spent on that Icon are wasted on Initiative that provides no benefit, as least Nurgle makes it harder for the Harlie unit to wound.

Anyway, like I said at the beginning of posting in this thread is that it all depends on the composition of your force. Here is a rough, what I would consider competitive, army composition using the Lord (around 2000 points)

-HQ-

Deamon prince w/ MoS, Wings, Lash of Submission = 155

Chaos Lord w/ MoN, Terminator Armor, Deamon Weapon, PI = 170

Greater Deamon (if points allow) = 100

-Elites-

10 Terminators w/ (2) Reaper Autocannon, 4 Powerfists, Icon of Tzeentch = 425

-Troops-

(2) 10-man Lesser Deamons = (130) 260

(2) 10-man CSM squad w/ Powerfist, Meltagun, Icon of Khorne in Rhino = (265) 530

-Fast Attack-

5 Bikers w/ Icon of Nurgle = 215

-Heavy Support -

2 Cheap Predators = (100) 200



Essentially the Rhinos and the Bikers jump forward. Turbo-boasting Toughness 6 Bikers will be hard to take down in the fist turn, especially if they are utilizing Rhinos for cover. Turn two the Lesser Deamons have 3 locations to spring from and can impact the lines of most armies to tie them up. Depending if the Rhinos where popped, the terminators have at least one location to show up. DP lashes anybody to far away. And you spend the rest of the game combine assaulting with the Terminator unit, DP, lesser deamons, and Greater Deamon (who you can even pop from the Terminator unit for an extra 10 points). Against Eldar, Autocannons from the Predators, and Reapers from the Terminators can keep Falcons stunned, most units in the list can absorb a charge from Harlequins.

So my point in all of this is that, the Chaos Lord can be useful, depending on the composition of your force.

Okay Tacobake, I take your point. They definitely aren't horrible, just rather too unwieldy IMO.

Mahu:

A unit-on-unit comparison doesn't seem too useful to me. The reality is that if you field an uber unit, it's going to get pounced on by more than just a single unit of Harlies. All it takes is two units of Harlies (fairly common in cookie-cutter lists) and you're looking at a rather different outcome.

This is really a little besides the point, though, since my initial question was what exactly is so great about adding a Lord to Termies, not Termies in general. I'm still not seeing why that Termie Lord is so great with the Termies compared to a Sorceror or a second DP.



Ironically, your game plan as outlined above doesn't actually involve your Lord doing anything, does it?

The whole reason I posted a sample list is to show that the likely hood of jumping the unit with two groups of Harlequins is not as apparent as you think. Not with CSM and Lesser Deamons standing in your way. Careful use of movable terrain, I mean Rhinos, and deployment of certain units can make reaching the Terminators a stretch, also considering the fact that the Harlies are in Falcons, kinda gives the player a turn to react to them. (You have to park the Falcon at least 2" to 18" away from what you plan to assault for a turn plenty of time to deploy CSM or summon deamons in your way).

Like I said it's impossible to determine the outcome of any one list facing another as player skill, dice rolls, etc. play there part. All I can say is that a big unit of terminators are not that scared of even the craziest assault unit. Giving a CC character like the lord more ablative wounds and better protection then a DP out of his own. The Terminators take the punishment and the Lord starts chewing through things.

I can't see anything in that list that makes the Lord better than 170pts spent elsewhere.

The 10 Tzeentch termies with 4 powerfists aren't going to need any help. The Lord will just suck casualties, which allow people to pull before the powerfists get to go and wind up denying you attacks. That's just plain ignorance of the current game mechanics.

You really need no more than 2 powerfists in any unit, because the 12 power weapon attacks or more beforehand are going to deny you the ability to go most of the time. The powerfists are just monster/daemon/dreadnought insurance, not there to actually kill normal troops.

Imagine that list you had with two more obliterators or another daemon prince. It'd be better. Hands down.

Yeah, he's usable, the Lord. But why take a 170pt dude who doesn't score when he doesn't do anything particular for you?

This thread is about gearing the new Chaos lord. I suggest you should gear him with a foam surround, permanently.

If the Lord could have a retinue of terminators that didn't count as elites, he would be totally usable. But he can't.

The chaos HQs have to be judged on the merits of what they can do alone, imho. They don't work very well with units, other than a non-Slaaneshi Lord with a Slaaneshi squad of terminators (so they all fight at I5) or Raptors.

the sorcerer with Lash+bike/jp is a good choice. Daemon prince with lash, good choice. Daemon prince with Nurgle or Tzeentch are both decent. Sorcerer with winds of Chaos and a jump pack or bike is also a valid choice. gak, a Tzeentch sorc on a bike with bolt of change is pretty awesome.

A plain Lord just doesn't have a very good assault build that's reliable, and can't shoot worth a damn.

Also saying that the Prince can hide easily belies the fact that recently princes are known to have Lash and are being hunted incessantly on the field when wearing Pink, and most I have seen only survive 2-3 rounds before being obliterated. Good armies anymore tend to have very mobile unit killers that are decent at hunting. He is extremely tough to hide, and still get use out of him.

Though mostly I have seen/heard of Eldar fighting lash, and they are very very mobile.

This is how I see Lords.  Daemon weapons don't need a psychic test and can't be stopped by hoods but 1/6 will stuff you.

No Mark
Daemon Weapon, Jump Pack or Bike
(Why not take Khorne?)

Khorne
Lightning Claws, Jump Pack or Bike
(Instead of a Juggernaut why not take Kharn?)

Slannesh
Lightning Claws or Daemon Weapon, Jump Pack, Bike or Steed
(Daemon Weapon is WS6 I6 no psychic test character-killer, if you take Sorceror you also get Lash)

Nurgle
Lightning Claws, Jump Pack or Bike
(T6 w/ the Bike)
-> You could take Daemon Weapon if you wanted, but personally I would be leery of charging Carnifexes

Tzeentch
Lightning Claws(invul) or Daemon Weapon (invul, shooting), Steed or Bike
(If you want shooting a Sorceror is better maybe?)

And don't forget that if you're talking about a second HQ you can always take a Greater Daemon for 100 pts.

Now, you have to take an HQ and if the only Lord you wanted at all was a Lord in terminator armour deep-striking in then that's just the way it is.  Advantage over a sorceror is no psychic tests, and more effective vs infantry, other than taking warp time.

Has anyone noticed that the Daemon Prince and Greater Daemon are now both scoring units?

Neither is an independent character, they're just monstrous creatures - they'll score just as much as a wraithlord or carnifex would.

And it confused me as to why everyone was talking about combi-plasma terminators because I thought they couldn't take plasma - chaos never had combi-plasmaguns but now sure enough, the entry just says "combi-weapon", and in combi-weapons since GW has just copy/pasted it from previous sources, plasmaguns are now included.

Just requires conversion, but meh. Kinda neat!

-Spellbound

Yes, we noticed that they are scoring units. See two pages ago

Just remembered that another advantage that the Chaos Lord is that he makes any unit he joins Fearless.

I also wouldn't consider the GD as a "secondary" HQ choice as he doesn't take a slot in the FOC.

Posted By Mahu on 10/04/2007 4:10 AM
Just remembered that another advantage that the Chaos Lord is that he makes any unit he joins Fearless.

I also wouldn't consider the GD as a "secondary" HQ choice as he doesn't take a slot in the FOC.

That's what I meant.  If all you want is some extra close combat punch, a GD makes for a great second HQ choice but you can't take it as your first, mandatory HQ choice.

And regarding the Fearlessness, all I have to say is, "groovy".  Is that from the main book, adding a Fearless character to a non-fearless squad?

Now, THAT might be useful.  I certainly am sick of my squads running away - I'm famous around here for failing leadership checks, both in fantasy [especially] and 40k.

The comment earlier about a lord in a squad of Slaanesh troops so that he goes at the same time is intriguing, and I'd like to get more attacks.  I think just because I CAN, I might stick a khorne lord in amongst the Slaanesh troops, just to be extra blasphemous and that little bit more spiteful of the current rules system.

And I should read more carefully - I've been watching this thread but completely missed that they mentioned the scoring unit bit earlier, sorry about that.

-Spellbound

I had to squeeze in a game last night with my current Chaos associate and he pulled out a new fluffy Tzeentch army. It was in fact led by Ahriman but the second HQ was a tzeench lord on steed with a demon weapon which he put in a unit of tzeentch raptors (how weird is that).

This guy was a monster, he only rolled a 1 for demon weapon once all night. He was shooting the crap out of everything and in assault he counted for an entire squad of 6 harlies on his own. He was extremely mobile, has a great inv. save and had a squad of wound absorbers all around him that were still decent in CC.

Unfortunatley for him when my avatar charged he inficted 5 wounds and he failed 2 plus the 1 demon weapon wound finished him off.

But this guy was seriously good and far more effective than Ahriman (his highlight was turning 2 pathfinders into spawn but failing to hit at all in 3 rounds of combat.) He survived far longer than the demon princes he previously fielded because he didn't have to take so many saves. I wonder how he would do in termie armor with tzeench terms.

Orion

You remembered incorrectly. See page 74 of the BGB. Fearless ICs lose it when they join non-fearless units. There is no rule that counters this for Chaos Lords like there is for Chaplains. Too bad cause it would be handy for those non-chaos glory units.


You can do something similar with tzeentch sorcerer and doombolt/warptime with much less chance of taking a wound. Or skip doom bolt and give the guy wind of chaos.

Interesting idea with the raptors though. I'm picturing a unit all on disks (kinda cool).

Usually this would be the case but against Eldar you are probably taking the psychic test on three dice not two and adding them together. Any result of 12 or greater causes perils of the warp. I'm not going to do the math but I am interested in the comparison, if anyone else feels so inclined, of what likelyhood will this be to inflict a wound vs rolling a 1 for daemon weapon?

Orion