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I just dug up my e-mails from DreamForge Mark and coincidentally it will have been 3 years ago tomorrow that I e-mailed Mark (AKA NoseGoblin on Dakka) about ordering a Leviathan. The price for a Crusader was $550.00 - a Warlord sized titan for about $20 less than Forge World's Warhound! Additional weapons were priced at $55.00 for the Blockhead Chaingun and $60.00 for the Blockhead Ripper Chainsaw.

Little did I know that his project would be so short-lived.

For those unfamiliar with the story, Mark was selling 24" tall Titan-esque "Leviathans" but got shut down by GW. It was no cut and dry IP infringement case however. Word has it Mark got the "go ahead" from GW (they seemed ok with it since his designs were different enough from GW designs and they weren't producing anything similar at the time), so he sank his money into the project, got production rolling (I had my name in for the Crusader with additional Blockhead weapons), but then all of a sudden GW pulled the rug out from under him. I recall a Dakka member who is knowledgable in IP law suggesting than in so doing, GW not only prevented him from infringing on their IP, but they also made sure the project was financially ruined so that he couldn't afford to take them to court over it.

I get so furious with GW when I think about it...

P.S. Mark's still around as evidenced by his posts on 3D modeling boards and this:
http://theminiaturespage.com/member/profile.mv?id=NoseGoblin

 

Posted By Elusive71 on 10/11/2007 12:08 PM
I recall a Dakka member who is knowledgable in IP law suggesting than in so doing, GW not only prevented him from infringing on their IP, but they also made sure the project was financially ruined so that he couldn't afford to take them to court over it.

I also recall somebody at the time mentioning that the kits contained scaled-up scans of Epic parts. If true, that would be an alternate explanation to just 'GW were out to get him...'

Unfortunately, the only people who can be sure they know what actually happened are Mark and GW.

The head on the Crusader was straight off of the old MkI beetle-back Warlord, but everything else was obviously his own design, so if that was their beef, they could have said "you can't use that head" rather than shut down the whole operation.

They didn't like his handsculpted Gabriel kits either. They kind of looked like an Epic knight and GW shut him down for it, but is there any reason why to this day, you can't buy a used one on eBay? Every time one pops up, the auction gets pulled. I don't see that happening with Armorcast & Co.

It's the cost issue that's really infuriating. Estimates floating around are pricing the FW Reaver at around $1000 US and should they ever produce that Warlord they talk about, it'll probably cost around $1500-$2000. Versus a $550 Leviathan. I guess Mark happened upon the Philosopher's Stone of resin kit production.

Posted By Elusive71 on 10/11/2007 1:44 PM
 they could have said "you can't use that head" rather than shut down the whole operation.

Sure they could. But if someone's ripping off your product, are you really under any obligation to be polite about it?

How is this mistreatment?

 

For one, a scaled up version is just the same as if you used an epic one. Same sort of issue, just a different scale. As for ruined, how?

The guy could as easily start making himself stompa parts and easily be in the ballpark. His only issue that I can see is the obvious attempt to make the same GW stuff, and by all accounts here, its already a done deal that he should have kept to himself and made one or two, just to say that he had them. Then after the fact, he could have sold it second hand as used.

If this guy wants to scale up parts, spend all sorts on production just to get clobbered, I don't see this as mistreatment, when everyone else who has done so for the past couple of years has ended up in the same boat.

Armorcast at the time had license to make the titans of old, Korn engines, Vehicles for the eldarThe ork trukk, The Stompa, as well as the Bubblechuckka and the other odds and ends. If you want, go back to the early white dwarfs and see the plans that were already available to make your own vehicles. I don't remember the number, but the Laviathan plans are in one of the early ones. I have seen numerous vehicle plans back then, even though they arn't the large scale models, there are still plenty of the other projects out there for you to wrap your brain around.

I feel for the guy's pain, but honestly, if my company was cutting its own throat with half ass products, and I came across a small up and comer with stuff 100 times better, My first reaction would be to give them enough rope to hang themselves, then pull out the rug and used the small timers product as my own. Its easier then coming up with my own work, and it is a nice way to intimidate the competition from attempting anything like that in the future.

On many levels, I excel at  busting GW's balls, but not on this one. And the additional tidbit that you gave about upscaling Epic parts just about takes the cake.

Laughing My Ass Off.

"Word has it Mark got the "go ahead" from GW (they seemed ok with it since his designs were different enough from GW designs and they weren't producing anything similar at the time), so he sank his money into the project, got production rolling (I had my name in for the Crusader with additional Blockhead weapons), but then all of a sudden GW pulled the rug out from under him."

He should be able to recover damages from his lawyer. The contract/release between him and GW should have been able to protect him. If it doesn't, then his complaint should be with his lawyer first and GW second.

As the Devil's Advocate I will try and do GW's position:

The mere fact that people are posting on this thread how they would buy 'Leviathans' instead of Forgeworld Titans show's GW was right.

These were not original designs, nor were they generic giant robots, they were clearly intended to be substitutes for GW products. They were orignally sold on ebay as 40k Titans (infringing on GW copyrighted designs and GW trademarks) and capitalizing on GW's good brand name and ideas.

You will note that Dreamforge's crab tank is still up. GW did not object to it even though they also make a 6 legged tank since clearly the two are not the same.

If there ever was a Dream Forge/GW lawsuit a jury would have to decide if a reasonable person would mistake DF leviathans for GW titans. But we don't need that. Every fan I have ever heard from has said Leviathans=Titans. NO ONE has EVER said they wanted a leviathan for DF's rusty empires or whatever it was called. NO ONE.

If a company wants to make its own models, go for it. But making thinly veiled version of any other company's products and marketing them to fans, that's just asking for trouble.

Since we've not seen GW's agreement with DF we can never know if they mislead them or not. But unless it was a legal settlement or a contract or a licence it probably was not binding.

I wanted a leviathan too. I really did. But I can't work up much sadness for DF's demise.

Maybe "mistreatment" was a poor choice of words. I forget that folks can't tell when my tongue is in my cheek.

Posted By Grot 6 on 10/11/2007 6:29 PM
As for ruined, how?

By the fact that he wouldn't see any return on the money he invested in the project. Forget profit, his not being able to cover his overhead would mean he's in the hole. He did sell a few though, so maybe he broke even.

Posted By insaniak on 10/11/2007 4:54 PM
Sure they could. But if someone's ripping off your product, are you really under any obligation to be polite about it?

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 10/11/2007 7:52 PM
The mere fact that people are posting on this thread how they would buy 'Leviathans' instead of Forgeworld Titans show's GW was right.

These were not original designs, nor were they generic giant robots, they were clearly intended to be substitutes for GW products.

But remember, the catch was (if I recall the original discussion correctly) GW saw the designs and by all accounts thus far GW was ok with it. At the time GW was not producing anything similar at that scale, and the one piece that could be considered a knockoff resembled a part of a kit that GW hadn't produced for years. Again I repeat - GW saw the designs before-hand. At least that was the impression given to those of us who were following Mark's work.

They were orignally sold on ebay as 40k Titans (infringing on GW copyrighted designs and GW trademarks) and capitalizing on GW's good brand name and ideas.

Those weren't the Leviathans, those were the Gabriel "knights". I've got one and from what I've been told, it's unlikely I could resell it as Gabriel auctions get pulled off eBay.

My point to all of this and my biggest aggravation is the pricing issue. Mark was able to charge less for a Warlord sized kit than FW charges for a Warhound. Personally I'd rather have my $560 buy a Warlord than a Warhound, but that's just me.

Posted By Elusive71 on 10/11/2007 11:02 PM

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 10/11/2007 7:52 PM
The mere fact that people are posting on this thread how they would buy 'Leviathans' instead of Forgeworld Titans show's GW was right.

These were not original designs, nor were they generic giant robots, they were clearly intended to be substitutes for GW products.

But remember, the catch was (if I recall the original discussion correctly) GW saw the designs and by all accounts thus far GW was ok with it. At the time GW was not producing anything similar at that scale, and the one piece that could be considered a knockoff resembled a part of a kit that GW hadn't produced for years. Again I repeat - GW saw the designs before-hand. At least that was the impression given to those of us who were following Mark's work.

Here's where we run into the problem of incomplete and limited information.  What was the 'agreement' with GW and who was it with and what were the terms?

One one extreme he sat down with lawyers and signed a contract that GW would not mess with him so long as he did X, Y and Z.  On another extreme he showed the designs to a local redshirt and the guy said 'looks fine to me'.

Probably it was somewhere in the middle.  Maybe somone said 'I don't see a problem' and got overruled by a higher up, but too late for DF.  Maybe DF promised something but did not deliver, or maybe GW did string him along and yank the rug out.

We.  Just.  Don't. Know.

And since anyone who would know is an interested party anything said would be of questionable reliability.

I was sorry to see DF go, but I wish he had stuck with original designs like the spider tank rather than try and come as close to GW as possible without getting sued.  Always a bad idea.

To give a technical term to Kid Kyoto's theory, it's called an agency discrepency. Basically, in a lot of cases where a person "has a deal" and then the deal get's cancelled, it's because the person was dealing with a person who could not make the deal.

Maybe DF got permission from GW USA, or a local redshirt, or Jervis.... it doesn't matter because none of them can sign away GW's IP. It's the business equivilant of asking your dad if you can go out on friday night when you know well enough only your mom can really give that sort of permission.

Kid_Kyoto
   I respect many of your views, but I disagree about a few things. Just because many people intended to use the DF leviathan in GW games does not make it an IP infringement. I use tons of Void miniatures myself and I know nothing about Void as a game. Does that make Void guilty of IP infringement?

  I'll also admit that EVERYONE refered to these models as titans. That also means nothing. Does anyone say they use kleenex, rollerblades, or jacuzzi? These are all brand names that have turned into generic terms. When a leader in an industry is so successful their products become sononomous with the whole pruduct range a legal grey area occurs. Legally you can advertise a used "jacuzzi" as long as the "j" is lowercase. If you use a capital it will indicate a brand name. As far as I know, DF never refered to it's products as either "Titans" or "titans". That was all the public.

  Contrary to popular beleif GW did NOT invent the look of an antique gothic giant walking robot. Hell, they weren't even the first to put a castel on the back of a robot.

JUST to jump in, I'd like to say how awesome that second pic Elusive posted is. And that head is his own design, no? Very sexy big iron monster, complete with chaingun & chainsaw ... A pity GeeDub obliteratred him.  As in, I've never wanted to buy a FW / Armorcast titan, but I would love to have one of those lads in my closet ...

- Salvage

Posted By cuda1179 on 10/12/2007 8:20 AM

Kid_Kyoto
   I respect many of your views, but I disagree about a few things. Just because many people intended to use the DF leviathan in GW games does not make it an IP infringement. I use tons of Void miniatures myself and I know nothing about Void as a game. Does that make Void guilty of IP infringement?

  I'll also admit that EVERYONE refered to these models as titans. That also means nothing. Does anyone say they use kleenex, rollerblades, or jacuzzi? These are all brand names that have turned into generic terms. When a leader in an industry is so successful their products become sononomous with the whole pruduct range a legal grey area occurs. Legally you can advertise a used "jacuzzi" as long as the "j" is lowercase. If you use a capital it will indicate a brand name. As far as I know, DF never refered to it's products as either "Titans" or "titans". That was all the public.

  Contrary to popular beleif GW did NOT invent the look of an antique gothic giant walking robot. Hell, they weren't even the first to put a castel on the back of a robot.

Was he advertising them as titans?

Well, as I stated in my post you quoted, the answer is "No".

 

Posted By cuda1179 on 10/12/2007 8:20 AM
When a leader in an industry is so successful their products become sononomous with the whole pruduct range a legal grey area occurs. Legally you can advertise a used "jacuzzi" as long as the "j" is lowercase. If you use a capital it will indicate a brand name. As far as I know, DF never refered to it's products as either "Titans" or "titans". That was all the public.

Come to think of it, pretty much every cotton swab I've seen looks like a Q-Tip brand cotton swab...

Contrary to popular beleif GW did NOT invent the look of an antique gothic giant walking robot. Hell, they weren't even the first to put a castel on the back of a robot.  

Good point.

Posted By Boss_Salvage on 10/12/2007 8:21 AM
JUST to jump in, I'd like to say how awesome that second pic Elusive posted is. And that head is his own design, no? Very sexy big iron monster, complete with chaingun & chainsaw ... A pity GeeDub obliteratred him.  As in, I've never wanted to buy a FW / Armorcast titan, but I would love to have one of those lads in my closet ...

Yep, that head was Mark's own design. Here's pics of the very first Mortis Leviathan (AKA Blockhead) to be sold, all painted and ready to do some stomping:

http://www.joshuabuchanan.com/dragonpit/40k/Judge/

And here's links to the original Dream Forge Games pages for the Leviathans. Check out the stained glass rosette on the backs of these dudes!

Crusader

Mortis

Ah well, maybe if FW makes a beetle-back varient when they release their Warlord I'll forgive them. o  

Ahhhhhhh Elusive now I want one more! I mean, look at how tiny all those armorcasters look! My chaos could finally be big man on the APOC table / floor!

Also, were the guns hypothetically available seperately? I've since decided I like the thermal lance weapon over the chaingun, cause I'd (theoretically) have other titans to kill ...

- Salvage

Posted By cuda1179 on 10/12/2007 9:31 AM

Well, as I stated in my post you quoted, the answer is "No".

 

Meh. I would have sued him anyway just to blow him out of the water.  Competition is not just done based on price baby.  Same tactic as McDonalds. Pound He!! out of anyone too small to fight on the legal front, then pound the rest through more conventional competitive means.

Your comparison to McDonalds is appropriate on so many levels. 

Posted By Boss_Salvage on 10/12/2007 10:14 AM
Also, were the guns hypothetically available seperately? I've since decided I like the thermal lance weapon over the chaingun, cause I'd (theoretically) have other titans to kill ...

Yep. Mark was going to sell me the Mortis weapons seperately. I'm not sure what the Crusader loadout wuld have cost though.

Because I'm a masochist, I just printed out one of the Mortis pictures at life-size scale to see what it would have been like to have one. The thing is MASSIVE.

In a few months I will have the pleasure of facing off with the "Judge" (that black Mortis in the links) in a mega battle. I can only estimate that there will be 20 titans there.

Cool! Take pictures if you can.

I plan on it. I know I will be bringing at least 4 titans, possibly 6 if I can get them painted in time. I also know that there are about six reavers, six warhounds, the judge, a slanesh warlord, three of four Phantom titans, a couple reaver titans, MANY baneblade varients, a capital imperialis, Leviathan, defense laser, and a few thunderhawks.

 

I am getting giddy just thinking about it.

Thats at least a demi-legion. Impressive.

Is it true that the Slaaneshi Titan is a 24" Bratz doll?

So is there no chance of ever getting one of these?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I doubt it. It would probably be too risky for Mark to even do it under the table. I'd be surprised if he still had the molds and such.

Yeah, GW even sends nasty emails to people who sell too many Armorcast Titans on eBay. Or so I've heard.

IIRC he originally sold 'titans' and 'knights' for 40k on ebay. After a cease and disiest order from GW game down he launched DF and tweeked the designs a bit.

I think that's what does him in. He's not a random dude who decided to make robots with castles on their backs, he's a GW fan looking to see how close to GW designs he could come without getting in trouble.

Posted By cuda1179 on 10/12/2007 11:13 AM

I plan on it. I know I will be bringing at least 4 titans, possibly 6 if I can get them painted in time. I also know that there are about six reavers, six warhounds, the judge, a slanesh warlord, three of four Phantom titans, a couple reaver titans, MANY baneblade varients, a capital imperialis, Leviathan, defense laser, and a few thunderhawks.

 

I am getting giddy just thinking about it.

A Capital Imperialis AND a Leviathan?

Seriously, do NOT forget to take pictures!

I've got both of those models in Epic scale kicking around... Some of my favorites, even though the scale on the Epic Capital Imperialis wasn't even close to right!

Hey Elusive, post a pic of this little Knight you bought! (apologies if you've done so already, I've only skimmed).

My views (again I'll say I've only skimmed) - It sucks we cant buy this. It sucks that they tricked him. They look an awful lot like GW designs. WHether GW invented castle-bots or not, they're the ones that own the IP. It's ironic that GW now use his leg design on the Reaver.

Pics of Dream Forge's Gabriel:





Still haven't assembled him yet. IIRC he's about 10" tall.