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cuda117 wrote: As far as I know, DF never refered to it's products as either "Titans" or "titans". That was all the public

And perception is the whole point of brand identification and IP lawsuits.

If "the public" referred to another product as a titan, then that is IP infringement. Especially for people who know nothing of GW's history with the term and/or forgeworld products, they will assume it is made and sold by GW. GW acted to protecty its IP AND its corporate identity as well as its products.

Example: George Forman hawks a grill for cooking burgers.
I make and market a "foreman" grill that is shoddy and malfunctions injuring several people. Who do you think the public is going to vent their anger and lawsuits at?

Look at ANY GW product. Somewhere you will find a partial list of GW copyrights. words and images such as:
Chaos factions and logos
codex
eye of terror
space marine
land speeder
terminator
dreadnought
predator


For us in the gaming world, use of any of these terms will tell us exactly what we are talking about, correct?
Mention "terminator' or 'landspeeder' to a non-gamer, and he will think of Arnold or Luke. And THAT is what GW fears: the knock-offs that will take profit from the GW coffers.

I have two of the Dream Forge Gabriels, still brand new and in box, that I've never gotten around to building (and probably never will). It's a shame too, since they are fantastic models, very well done. I was offered $350 each earlier this year and didn't take it; if someone were to offer me that now I'd definitely sell them.


Frederich

The only flaw in them (and it's a big one being the picky S.O.B. that I am) is their asymmetry. The original was obviously hand sculpted in some sort of clay rather than built up with something more rigid and therefore is full of lopsidedness and lacks crisp detail. It's a super cool design though, and I have half a mind to clean it up a bit with plasticard and bits.

It is a shame really that these excellant models are unavailble for sale. My jaw drops looking at the Gabriel Knight.

At the same time, without any knowledge of IP rights, I can't help but feel that this has to be infringing on GW's IP....

Elusive71 wrote:Pics of Dream Forge's Gabriel:

Still haven't assembled him yet. IIRC he's about 10" tall.

And that is the problem.

He has appropriated GW imagery directly:
- Assault Cannon
- Chainsword
- Winged Skull <== this is the killer

If he hadn't done that, his product wouldn't be as much of a problem.

But really, his design is far too close to the GW designs.

Pity, really, as he could have done a "generic" design, and then made option parts available.

No matter what he apropriated those were kick@ss models.
Starts to drool...
But for real pople should smarten up a little of course GW will screw you if they get any hint of copyright infringement. And those leviathans were dripping with GW designs.

Sorry JohnHwangDD, I completely disagrre. If that was the case...

Mini-gun, been around since the United States War of Independance.

Chainsword- Evil Dead2, Ash and his Wrist-stump Chainsword.

Winged Skull- Been around ever since there have been Biker Clubs.

If the designs GW put out were not SO generic, I would agree with you. But they are, for EXACTLY this reason( IP ).

If not, why did the design team Jerks shut him down before Apocalypse came out? $$$ lost. Still put the rules for a WARLORD Titan in the original rules book for Apoc. though, didn't they? But with not even a FW model to back it up. Money hungry Jerks. And I love almost everything else GW do, except crush people who might actually show us what 'Product Support' really means. That way, we can never say what they are afraid of....

"Hey, these guys at (insert Company name here) do a much better job". Sad.

I'm not a lawyer, and really the only people who I think can really know anything about this are people who are trained in law....but if someone showed me that and asked me who I thought produced the model, just based on a cursory glance, Forge World or GW would be the first words out of my mouth. If someone told me that it was a prototype product for GW that they were testing out, I would see no reason to doubt it. I don't believe GW's imagery is at all generic.....in fact I wouldnt be suprised if they have someone who consults a lawyer and makes designs that are difficult to copy the "feel" of without infringing on IP, but that is just speculation. I'm sorry, I really don't have sympathy here. I really think there is no question about what these models are intended for, and the cute little line about "using them in your favorite game system" is there for those who are dense enough not to catch the wink and nudge. Maybe this is not the case and I'm just being nasty, but I have to wonder if that Rusted Faith rules set is not a cover your backside kind of measure...See, these aren't even for 40k, they're for Rusted Faith! It could be a great rules system, but still.

akira5665 wrote:Sorry JohnHwangDD, I completely disagrre. If that was the case...

Mini-gun, been around since the United States War of Independance.

Chainsword- Evil Dead2, Ash and his Wrist-stump Chainsword.

Winged Skull- Been around ever since there have been Biker Clubs.

Strange, I don't recall George Washington mowing down Redcoats with miniguns in 1776... I thought the Contenintal Militia were still primarily armed with ball shot muzzle-loaders. If memory serves, the Gatling didn't even exist until the America Civil War ca 186x. As a native son of Virginia, you'd think I'd know this stuff. But then, far be it for me to correct you...

Besides, the real problem is that the minigun is a copy of the GW design.

I don't see the DF Titan sporting a wrist-stump-styled chainsword. It's a copy of the GW design.

And I don't see that winged skull copying a biker icon. It's copying the GW icon.

In any case, the main problem is that the individual elements, are specifically styled (if not outright copied) after the GW designs, and specifically combined into a GW-styled composite to create confusion as to the source.

Therefore, he got what he deserved, from a strictly legal IP POV.

As I said, he should have created his own designs.

Yeah, you are right JohnHwangDD. I just wqant to buy a WARLORD is all.

If not by DF, then by anybody else.

By crikey, that is one impressive Titan though.

Jeepers that Knight Gabriel is beautiful.

akira5665 wrote:I just want to buy a WARLORD is all.

If not by DF, then by anybody else.

By crikey, that is one impressive Titan though.

Hell, yeah, it's an impressive model.

If only he'd have negotiated some kind of sub-license from GW like Armorcast did...

Yep. Now that I have sat back and really put some thought to it JHDD (sorry bud, your sig is a Handfull! ) the observations/opinions you laid out were spot on.

If I was going to invest money in Moulds/marketing/infrastructure- it would be remiss of me NOT to have it all signed and in paper.

He must be an excellent designer though. Maybe he should apply for a Job at FW, if the grapes aren't sour?

Laserbait wrote:
And perception is the whole point of brand identification and IP lawsuits.

If "the public" referred to another product as a titan, then that is IP infringement. Especially for people who know nothing of GW's history with the term and/or forgeworld products, they will assume it is made and sold by GW. GW acted to protecty its IP AND its corporate identity as well as its products.

Example: George Forman hawks a grill for cooking burgers.
I make and market a "foreman" grill that is shoddy and malfunctions injuring several people. Who do you think the public is going to vent their anger and lawsuits at?

Look at ANY GW product. Somewhere you will find a partial list of GW copyrights. words and images such as:
Chaos factions and logos
codex
eye of terror
space marine
land speeder
terminator
dreadnought
predator


For us in the gaming world, use of any of these terms will tell us exactly what we are talking about, correct?
Mention "terminator' or 'landspeeder' to a non-gamer, and he will think of Arnold or Luke. And THAT is what GW fears: the knock-offs that will take profit from the GW coffers.

Good post Laserbait, I don't think I really got why GeeDub guards its IP so zealously until I read this. Thanks

- Salvage

Wow, timely subject-

Grot 6 wrote:I feel for the guy's pain, but honestly, if my company was cutting its own throat with half ass products, and I came across a small up and comer with stuff 100 times better, My first reaction would be to give them enough rope to hang themselves, then pull out the rug and used the small timers product as my own. Its easier then coming up with my own work, and it is a nice way to intimidate the competition from attempting anything like that in the future.

While this is just the way business works, and GW is doing the right thing as far as their own advancement is concerned, it still does not reduce their ever increasing ass-wipe status. I really don't understand how a company that punishes its consumers so much is still around.

AHHHHH

FROM THE DEAD!!??!

asaffin wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:I feel for the guy's pain, but honestly, if my company was cutting its own throat with half ass products, and I came across a small up and comer with stuff 100 times better, My first reaction would be to give them enough rope to hang themselves, then pull out the rug and used the small timers product as my own. Its easier then coming up with my own work, and it is a nice way to intimidate the competition from attempting anything like that in the future.

Lots of stuff that doesn't relate to an active topic.

Seriously dude, put down the shovel, take a peek here, and let sleeping threads lie.

Thank you.