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Thought I would get the ball rolling by asking the Dakkaites the inevitable question:

What tactical options and list choices are going to change value for Mech Eldar players facing the new Orks?

Similarly, how will Orks deal with Mech Eldar? Lootas are obvious, but how can one distract/prevent Mech Eldar from targetting them first thing?

Also, given the slow speed of the vehicles that can mount them, do you think grabbin' klaws will actually make much of a difference? HAve I missed something, or are they not available to any of the fast vehicles?

My list isn't changing. It can handle almost all the Ork armies out there.

Orks need lots and lots of shooting. Lootas, Kannons, Ork Boyz with Rokkits, and/or Vehicles up the Ying Yang.

Don't know if lootas are really obvious, but they do have their place.

Grabbin Klaws on battlewagons are area denial weapons. 18" of don't come around no mo'.

Fantastic tactical advice there.

"My army won't have a problem, because I'm running it. The rest of you slobs are on your own. I have nothing more to say"

Assuming we're talking about a shootaboy horde backed up with lootas and toys, I think the eldar are in for a tough time. The lootas are big threats to the skimmers. The eldar have a ton of guns that counter them, but most require the eldar to get relatively close to use them. And to do that, they need to go through a wall of greenskin bodies.

So if they want to be shooting at the juicy ork stuff, they have to wade into the wall of greenskins, and that means a zillion shots and hth attacks to content with, and holofield or not, those falcons aren't staying in the air without a great deal of luck once you have to expose your back to the boyz.

The rest of the list is designed around not getting caught, but orks with their jumppacks and koptas can catch anything in the eldar list they want.

And not much in the rest of the eldar list besides dire avengers and scorpions is too scary to boyz.

I could definitely see an eldar list designed to specifically mop up on orks do very well. But nothing I've seen in a take all comers list is going to make me bet on the eldar.

Sorry, should I post my lists anytime asks a question? I said 'my list isn't changing'. It's a balanced take all comers army, and it takes Orks on.

Orks can't really 'catch' faster Eldar, and the units they are chasing will kill Storm Boyz and Deffkoptas PDQ.

Not sure what you mean by a zillion shots--first priority is kill the Lootas. After that most Ork armies don't have alot of dangerous shots. Do you consider 3 rokkits from each boyz mob "scary"?

I think Orks that try to play to Skimmer lists and bring lots of Lootas are spending way too many points and will leave themselves vulnerable to other armies because they won't have enough boyz.

Perhaps starting your advice off without the negativity would make your advice more worthwhile for new users?

Stelek I would like to introduce you to Ed longtime member and one of the best for advice. Time to sit back and watch the fire works.

For the Eldar, dire avengers, scorpions and warp spiders and some of the best units to take against Orks. I suppose basic guardians, backed up by a Farseer with Guide and Doom would also be something that would be deadly against Orks Imagine a 20-man Guardian unit with guide, shooting an Ork Mob of Boyz who have been doomed. YIKES! That would be about 22-23 wounds on the Orks in that shooting phase. Might as well charge in now and finish them off.

Dire Avengers and Scorpions are obvious against Orks. Warp Spiders also put out a ton of shots to hurt the Orks. They have to get within 12" to shoot, but then they get 2d6 to move away and moving away can draw a unit of Ork boyz away from the rest of the Eldar army. The Warp Spider exarch would need to have withdraw in order to get out of fights they don't want.

The Farseer might be the biggest advantage the Eldar have over Orks Guide and Doom are deadly to Orks and Mind War can remove power klaw nobs from units left and right.

It appears the standard Eldar Skimmer list, with falcons, harlequins, fire dragons and minimal troop choices is the poorest army to take against Orks, while a mixed foot list ( and a few skimmers are fine) would be the best option.

The key thing is everyone is hailing Orks as the new saviour to save us from auto-win borefest of Eldar Skimmer Spam, but how many of these people really are going to sit down to paint 120+ Ork models?

In a take on all comers sense (i.e. a Tournament) Mech Eldar will still be able to afford to tailor to fight Marines, and when facing Orks chalk it up to the one game in the tournament where they'll have to fight on equal terms.

I'm not even sure Orks are the rock to Eldar scissors- Fire Prism large blasts, Warp Spiders, various Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons all put a lot of hurt on Orks. And the Holotank is still as broken against Orks as against everyone else.

*chuckle*

Thanks Lemartes.

I watched the fireworks NYE, guess I'll have to miss out on tonights show.

I guess I'll post my list in a minute, thankfully there is no 'standard' in 40K....

==================================================

This is my all-comers list. Sometimes I run another unit of Guardian jetbikes, an Autarch on bike w/blaster + LL, and a unit of Shining Spears instead of the 2nd HQ.

Both work well. I like the Shining Spear version better, then MC and Nurgle aren't such pains.

==================================================

1750 Pts - Eldar Roster

1 Farseer @ 115 Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Fortune ; Turbo-boosters; Ghost Helm (GH); Rune Armour (RAmr); Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x1)
1 Warlock Unit @ 375 Pts
1 Warlock @ [45] Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour (RAmr); Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x1)
1 Warlock @ [45] Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour (RAmr); Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x1)
1 Warlock @ [45] Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour (RAmr); Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x1)
1 Warlock @ [45] Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour (RAmr); Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x1)
1 Warlock @ [45] Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour (RAmr); Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x1)
1 Warlock @ [45] Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour (RAmr); Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x1)
1 Warlock @ [45] Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour (RAmr); Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x1)
1 Warlock @ [60] Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Enhance ; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour (RAmr); Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x1)

1 Farseer @ 130 Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Fortune ; Turbo-boosters; Ghost Helm (GH); Rune Armour (RAmr); Runes of Warding (RofWard); Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x1)
1 Warlock Unit @ 235 Pts
1 Warlock @ [25] Pts
Psyker; Fleet; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)
1 Warlock @ [25] Pts
Psyker; Fleet; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)
1 Warlock @ [25] Pts
Psyker; Fleet; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)
1 Warlock @ [25] Pts
Psyker; Fleet; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)
1 Warlock @ [45] Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour (RAmr); Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x1)
1 Warlock @ [25] Pts
Psyker; Fleet; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)
1 Warlock @ [25] Pts
Psyker; Fleet; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)
1 Warlock @ [40] Pts
Psyker; Enhance ; Fleet; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)

3 Guardian Jetbike Squadron @ 76 Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Turbo-boosters; Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Cannon (SCan) (x1); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x2)

3 Guardian Jetbike Squadron @ 76 Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Turbo-boosters; Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Cannon (SCan) (x1); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x2)

1 Fire Prism @ 170 Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Spirit Stone (VSStn); Shuriken Cannon (SCan); Prism Cannon (PC)

1 Falcon @ 205 Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Spirit Stone (VSStn); Vectored Engines (VE); Scatter Laser (SctL); Shuriken Cannon (SCan); Pulse Laser (PL)

1 Falcon @ 205 Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Spirit Stone (VSStn); Vectored Engines (VE); Scatter Laser (SctL); Shuriken Cannon (SCan); Pulse Laser (PL)

5 Fire Dragons @ 80 Pts
Fleet; Fusion Gun (Fg); Melta Bombs

5 Fire Dragons @ 80 Pts
Fleet; Fusion Gun (Fg); Melta Bombs

Total Roster Cost: 1747

I think the Psycannon is not sold in Utah. It is not uncommon to see Grey Knight Terminators or Inquisitors in Marine or Guard lists in Chicago.

And as soon as those models move 12" a turn and can get to me behind cover, I'll worry about Psycannons from the Suck Knights.

Till then though, I'll just go 12" 12" 6" kill and see how it goes....3+ re-roll works great against Psycannons.

Following mauleed's points, (thanks!) I think I'm going to try trimming the bikes out of my mech list, just to see what happens. They're most vulnerable to getting caught and cut apart by stormboyz, dethkoptas, etc. I'm going to try going all-tank mounted (well, except for a bike Farseer), dropping the Shining Spears and 3-elf jetbike units that I usually field.

Following the same line of reasoning though, the koptas, stormboyz etc. all seem like the best targets for quick victory points, after lootas. Tankbustas too. Heck, I'd be happy to knock those units down and then spend the rest of the game shooting up one or two of the mobs before a turn 5-6 bladestorm bail-out to grab objectives and quarters.

Does that sound vaguely viable, or way off base? I guess I'm wondering whether removing bikes from a mech list is necessary to deal with Orks, or whether targetting the units just mentioned preferrentially is enough. Shadow Scorpion's post about how many Orks will actually get built and taken to tourneys makes a good point, but I think he may be underestimating how many folks are really, really stoked about Orks right now.

Going bikeless is totally the opposite of Stelek's approach, though. Stelek, even with Fortune, those Warlock bike units seem a a bit vulnerable to tons of boyz, given their low attacks back. Have you playtested them against the new Ork 'dex yet? How do you prevent sheer attrition taking them down once they get locked into combat?

Finally, Scorpions have always been good against Orks, but don't really feel right in a mech list (to me). Spiders also seem a bit close for comfort untill the Waagh has been used up- and even then, its not boyz but the faster units that I would worry about catching the Spiders. It's pretty hard to hide from Stormboyz.

Hmm. Shift towards tanks and points denial, or stay mixed bikes/tanks and just learn to deal with it?

Jetbike Warlocks are vulnerable vs. Orks as they need to get into 12" range (shoot or charge) to come to full effect. But tons of attacks or shots from shootas can kill even fortuned Warlocks.

They are vulnerable if you allow them to be.

Orks cannot catch you, so you can sit and wait for them to come...and with boost + JSJ on your side, plus Witchblades...I dunno, killing Orks in large numbers never seemed so easy. While I don't use it, Destructor hurts Orks very much.

Btw, Jetbike Warlocks are a whole different ball of wax vs foot Warlocks. They just don't die.

Do you play with a lot of Size 3 Area Terrain? That is an awful lot to try and hide.

Can you post pics of your Warlocks on bikes? I've had a heck of a time trying to figure out what looks right for a Warlock on a bike.

Have you actually played this list against tne new Orks? If so, what did your opponent take? I'm just having a really hard time seeing your list be successful vs. Orks with so many points tied up in Bike Seers.

that list is laughable against a decent new orc horde player.

34 or so 'trooper/bike' models, two falcons that hit on 4+, and a single ordinance blast. No decent Horde player will be scared of that, or have a hard time wiping it out.

Not that I know anything at all about eldar, I only took a guardian based list (which people say, suck) all the way to the finals for 'Ard Boyz, along with around 9 or so Best Generals at RTT's (they're still unfinished for painting) with the same base list.

Personally, I think most tournement 'all rounder' eldar lists are going to have a VERY difficult time against BOTH savvy MEQ AND Orks. I'll be VERY wary this next year in the GT's and Adepticon...and hope not to run into too large of a Snikrot mob.

I'm with you Deadshane, Orks are gonna make me rethink using Eldar in the GT's this year. I may switch to Chaos because they are better equipt to deal with the horde armies and still beat marines and Tyranids. Problem with Chaos has been that they don't matchup well against Mech Eldar/Tau.

Darrian

Exactly why I am developing the chaos list that I am. I have seen the future metagame and shrewd ork players will be the new rock to mech Eldar/Tau IMO.

Good News, I just played against a new ork list last night with my eldar.
Bikes are great. With torbo boost I was able to snake them in his deployment zone while holding the rest of my army back. I split my force in two large pods and put them in either corner. rather than running at me as one big mob he made two much smaller mobs. His fast units ran ahead of his army, they got killed. They are fast as rumored but die like anything else thats not supported. It took him the better part of 3 turns to get close to my corners. At about that time my bike( who had been taking pot shots my opponents 2 15 man loota squads) mostly finished them off thanks to destructor. At that point I redeployed my left wing to have it join up with the right. Though a combitnation of shooting and assault I finished off one prong of his army and lost most of a dire avenger squad (just for the record I always one squad in a serpent. Though I might get some scorpions instead)

Without fear of lootas and half of his army gone I just kited the remaining 60 shootas and mek. A lucky Kannon downed a falcon.

We played on a tourney styled table. And yes the ork play made some mistakes (like splitting up his mob)

The redeployment trick is an old one. As far as I can tell if you don't go head long into orks you have a fighting chance. But thats how mech eldar work.

Stelek, that's the kind of army that if I see I'm playing it round 3 on saturday at the GT I start saturday night's drinking right after round 2, as I'm not going to need to be sober to beat it.

I'd comment further, but deadshane summed it up perfectly:

that list is laughable against a decent new orc horde player.

34 or so 'trooper/bike' models, two falcons that hit on 4+, and a single ordinance blast. No decent Horde player will be scared of that, or have a hard time wiping it out.

The thing with the unkillable warlock squads is that they die to massed shooting. Now that shoota boys are one of the orc's better units, the massed fire power to take out those warlocks should be readily available.

Now if the eldar can dish out enough fire to blunt the orc's advance, they can win. It also helps if they can draw out the orc fast units and kill them off first before the green tide rolls over them. This, however, relies on the orc player making the mistake of splitting up his forces (advancing too fast with his fast units) so I wouldn’t count on it.

At first glance, I wouldn’t expect a bike heavy eldar list to do very well against orcs, particularly if they are not sporting warlocks with destructor. The move shoot move ability of the jetbikes will keep them out of assault for a while, but I just don’t believe that that they can do enough damage to the orcs before the orcs overwhelm them with force of numbers. This is of course, just my initial estimation as I have yet to see this match up on the field.

This might be an amusing exercise...math out how many orcs the units in that army will kill in a round of shooting. Then we can math out how many fortuned eldar warlocks will die to the orc shooting. It obviously isn’t the be all end all of comparisons but it will give us an idea of how things are likely to go before things get sucked into hand to hand.

The math is pretty straightforward:

Fire prism his 2/3 of the time, let's say 5 hits, so 10/3, then 50/18 wounds, and 100/54 failed saves. So 2.

Each troop jetbike squad has a cannon, so 6 total shots, 3 total hits, 15/6 wounds, 30/18 failed saves, so not quite 2 more.

There are 9 shots from each falcon, so 18 total, 9 hits, 45/6 wounds, and 90/18 failed saves, so 5.

So the eldar kill about 9 orks a turn if they don't want to engage them, praying their falcons and prism stay in the air and hoping to clear the orks off any objectives late in the game.

With some luck fortune on a turbo boosted bike makes the squad invulnerable for all intents and purposes.
Personally I think bikes can do it. Focus on one squad, duck back in cover, boost away when the greenies get too close.

That said it's definitely a list that you have to stay on your toes for. But it's your quintessential denial list. Now if stelek were to rush 3 30 man squads balls out with his locks I wouldn't bet as much on them.

When you say 'focus on one squad', what do you mean? His warlocks are only useful in hth, so he has to engage something at some point to use them.

And here's the math on shooting into a squad of fortuned bikes:

30 boyz, 54 regular and 3 rokkit shots

54/3 hits, 54/6 wounds, and 54/54 failed fortuned 3+ saves.

3 rokkits, 1 hits, 5/6 wound, and 5/24 failed fortuned inv 4+ saves.

So one dies to one units shooting.

So the orks will manage to whittle them down over time, but not quickly.

Assuming the Orks have LoS to the bikes. Jump, shoot, jump does marvelous things.

Shoot what? His bikes all have 12" shuriken catapults.

Man this is a ridiculous argument. That list is a horrible example of mech eldar and would be laughed off the field even at my FLGS where everyone plays howling banshees and mortars.

I forgot we were talking about warlock bikes.

You could do it with Eldritch storm though. Would be an interesting concept.

skyth wrote:I forgot we were talking about warlock bikes.

You could do it with Eldritch storm though. Would be an interesting concept.

Maybe you could, but he can't. He didn't buy it.

Wow, beat me drunk with your eyes closed and two hands tied behind your back?

Teach me, Sensei. My attitude isn't bad enough, between mauleed, longshot, and diggler I think there's enough condescension to pour buckets on everyone here.

Maybe having a small army that can attack anywhere on the board is an advantage against Orks.

I could be wrong, someone did really well in the 'Ard Boyz' which has been denigrated across the internet as anything but a test of skill--so what it means when you say 'I am skilled, look at how I did in the Ard Boyz' is really beyond me.

I've had no problem removing 100 orks from the tabletop and taking few losses in return. Everyone runs lists the way YOU guys tell them to, and it just makes things so much easier. I hope to get a game in this week against a Ork list *I* drew up for an opponent to play since he's tried Mech and Foot, and I've blown both to bits. I think Shooty area denial is key.

Of course, YMMV since you aren't as sucky as I am.

Interesting...Only 3 models in the second unit actually has jetbikes.

I would say he could beat them up close, but they don't even have destructor.