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Ah that's just a AB display error. lol They all have Bikes.

Those units blow Orks away in close combat and close range JSJ shooting.

Once he uses his Waaagh, it's pretty safe to do whatever you want to.

Play more games against Orks, guys.

Then your list adds up to 1887 points, not 1747.

Yeah it's supposed to be a 1850 list. Not sure what I did wrong there. lol

Stelek wrote:

1750 Pts - Eldar Roster


Total Roster Cost: 1747

Besides that fact that 1887 is still more points than 1850.

You're rapidly losing what little credibility you had.

@Stelek, You wrote "play more games against Orks, guys." Have you played against anyone using the new codex? If so, how many times? Does anyone else in your playgroup post here on Dakka? If so, what is his screenname? I would sure like to here from some of your opponents.

Darrian

Yes.

About 20 in total.

Yes, they do--none that play the Orks though.

If they want to post, they can. I'm sorry, not singling out my friends in real life for you.

Hey Skyth, I said it was a AB mistake.

I don't really care about my 'Dakka cred'.

Thank you for pointing out yourself as another unfriendly face around here.

I've been looking at the numbers on those bikerlock units.

It has to be said they are truly lethal against Ork shoota boyz. Getting them into CC without exposing themselves first may require a little skill - but if they do zip in at full strength then those 2 units can readily take out 4 full 30 boy mobz, and possibly 6 with even just a bit of luck on their side. The shooting on the way from 1 unit in should kill 6 or 7 orks, the assault charge should nail about another 13. Thats one gutted mob, possibly incluing a dead PK nob if the kill zone was set up right. The ork unit should hold though, if he doesn't thats him out the game.

If the mob survived then the other orks will need to try and charge in other wise they will suffer the same on the next eldar turn. The existing mob should make it difficult to get a good charge in and the warlocks can still butcher 8 or so orks a turn, but the orks against them are generally looking at getting just 1 warlock a turn. Even a shoota PK nob doesn't go far against a re-rollable 4++. You now have a big scrum which will usually end one way - 2 destroyed/broken orks mobz, and maybe 3 dead warlocks (and 3 would be quite lucky, 2 is more likely).


If the first mob ran on first contact then things are looking up - you can hopefully get a round a shooting in first. But don't kid yourself - those guys are damned resilient, and by now yu should be down a couple of shoota mobs, whilst other eldar stuff has hopefully thinned out the lootas etc. They'll still take a full mob charge and come out on top if you can't get them down to 5 before the assault. The difficulty in killing more warlocks than you lose orks each round means that the orks are likely to have to kill them to the man, which given the fragility of ork morale once they are under 11 strong can be a hairy proposition - the orks coud sill be the ones running due to taking a morale test caused by a lone farseer.

The biggest problem the warlocks have is failing a fortune roll and getting hammered in that turn, I've had that happen to me often enough, laugh at the pathetic attempts to kill my eldar units then fluff a fortune roll and watch your previously invulnerable unit of doom get hammered - I'd take embolden on a warlock to counter that.

One can get into discusison about good play by x will stop it or good play by y will make it a sure fire thing, but the straight up maths seems to show that they can easily take out their points worth and more, and in a way that seems to counters the core of the horde approach.

Stelek wrote:I don't really care about my 'Dakka cred'.

Suprising, since you post here virtually non-stop. I'd hate to see how much attention you'd lavish on something you actually cared about.

My GT army was not Mech Eldar, But footslogging. It had a lot of Dire Avengers, Guardians, and good counter assault of Scorpions and Harlequins. I have not seen the Ork codex yet, but I do not know how it would do against the new Orks. It should depend on if I can screen most of the units from Ork shooting.

If you are wondering how you would beat Orks with Mech Eldar, you might need to modify your build. For example, you need to take Scorpions in a Wave Serpent now. Dire Avengers also getting out of a Wave Serpent are good too (using serpent of fury). You also might try Storm Guardians with 2 Flamers, and a Warlock with Destructor. 3 Flamer templates will put a hurting on a large squad, but it will die in return. Kind of a fire and forget weapon.

And of course the Spearlock on a Jetbike with Destructor will come in handy.

Edit: Oops, you wanted to know how Orks kill Mech Eldar, not the other way around...my bad.

Wow this got down to personal attacks pretty quick....

The main topic at hand however is orks vs mech eldar.

People believe that orks are too many bodies for eldar to handle and that lootas trump eldar skimmers.

Others believe that eldar are mobile enough to make the orks fight on their terms.

Personally my experience has been the latter. Lootas can make some noise with 45 shots a turn. I've also seen them sputter out their base 15. I'm not saying orks can't beat eldar, but they aren't a guaranteed win. As far as the warlock bike thing goes, it's a moot point. Stelek makes it work. Outside of anyone taking a trip to Ohio were not going to know what magic touch he has with the bike locks. That said I think that there is a consensus that a farseer with a bunch of bikes can pose a problem for the orks. My other guess is that fire dragons will probably start taking a flamer, and EML might start showing up more often (I'm the only one in my gaming group that uses them.)

Also keep in mind that if the lootas can be dealt with they loose their ability to threaten skimmers. So the way I see it most games I play against orks are going to rely on my tying up/destroying/routing lootas. If I can take them out the game becomes potshotting mobs until they break.

sorry, multi post

To beat Eldar, Orks have to come strait down the middle of the board.

Eldar are so fast that if you seperate your units, they can either go left or right to isolate a flank and whittle it down with the rest of the Ork army out of position to counter attack. If you support your units, you can counter attack the Eldar, and you can corner them eventually.

If you can get a good LOS with your Lootas to an area of the board without much good cover, you can try to herd the Eldar in to your killing field.

I'm in Utah...what's in Ohio? We meeting halfway? lol

The problem for the orks is the locks hit on 3+ and wound on 2+, with only a 6+ save. It's not good if they squad can shoot you and still get a good charge off.

I'm undecided on the FDE with the heavy flamer, costs a few points and orks are cheaper than he is...and I haven't wanted it till now. I've tried it, still undecided. When the Orks warp near and you can flamer them...it is hilarious.

Stelek wrote:I'm in Utah...what's in Ohio?

I'm undecided on the FDE with the heavy flamer, costs a few points and orks are cheaper than he is...and I haven't wanted it till now.

There hasn't been a decent game of 40k played in Ohio in years.

If I would take Fire Dragon (and I don't) I would take the flamer. Most of the time one more melta shot will not change anything, and the flamer makes the unit more diverse and useful.

Stelek wrote:Hey Skyth, I said it was a AB mistake.

Funny how it got the other squad right. Not to mention that you're still over the alleged 1850 intentioned point level even though the list said it was built for 1750.

Note to players facing this guy at an RTT. Check his army list!!!!!

Darrian

Are you two still trolling? Gee, surprise.

Darrian13 wrote:Note to players facing this guy at an RTT. Check his army list!!!!!

Darrian

Exactly. It's hard to lose when you're playing with a 10% advantage in points over your opponent.

Good discussion folks. It's very useful for those of us who get less playtesting time than we would like. This is why I read Dakka- cheers!

I might actually try 2 Fire Prisms again. If Lootas are public enemy number one for skimmers, and the large prism blasts are useful without linking shots, they might actually pay for themselves by saving my other tanks. Heck, if they just killed two mobs of Lootas I'd be happy. Moving on to kill other mobs after that would be icing. I'll also be going after tankbustas preferentially, but they could be picked off with shuricannon shot just as easily.

If one took out the lootas and tankbustas early enough, what other credible threats to skimmers are there? How many rokkits would a typical horde have in their boyz units at 1850 (approximately, of course)?

I haven't used Fire Prisms overmuch recently, as I like the 2x Falcon/Dragon combo better for killing hard targets. To deal with the inevitable counter-slaughter, whenever possible I've followed the Dragon bailout with a Dire Avenger bail-and-spray to take out units that would charge the Dragons. The DAs get charged, but they're in tarpit configuration (SS/PW) and often live. Next turn I've launched a counterassault (usually Shining Spears) on whatever assaults the Dire Avenger tarpit. Against Orks, this is definitely not going to work. Heck, if Troops become the main contesting units in 5th ed., it will need to change against most opponents.


Maybe I'll try a more purely shooty list instead:

Farseer with Doom on jetbike (or Eldrad hiding in the bushes, when the cheese needs to come out)
2x Prism
2x Dire Avengers with SS/PW in Serpents with shuricannons (one with brightlance for good measure)
2x Scatter laser/shuricannon Vypers
2x 3-man Jetbike squads
[Something small for counter-assault- Shining Spears? Or maybe just another DA squad and less jetbikes. Hmm.]

I'm at work right now, but that looks like under 1850.

Does that look even vaguely viable (against both Orks and whoever else)? Man, do I miss my 2x flamer plus Destructor Storm Guard squads in Falcons...


I'll give it a few tries against the new 'dex, which should be easy as everyone and their cousin has new Ork forces in my gaming group (or is digging out their old ones). If I'm having trouble adapting after a dozen or so games, maybe I'll toss out the Mech lists for a while and try fielding a Pathfinder/Scorpion/Jetbike force. I'm very, very interested in the rending sniper weapon rumor. With the to-hit AP Pathfiders get plus rending on the to-wound roll, they could be much, much nastier soon. I'd like to practiced up with them when that happens.

But that's getting a bit OT. Again, thanks for all the commentary.

Blackmoor wrote:
Edit: Oops, you wanted to know how Orks kill Mech Eldar, not the other way around...my bad.

Actually, I'm interested in both. I play Mech Eldar, but am very much interested in surviving. Well, and I might pick up some Goffs at some point.

Shadow Scorpion wrote:The key thing is everyone is hailing Orks as the new saviour to save us from auto-win borefest of Eldar Skimmer Spam, but how many of these people really are going to sit down to paint 120+ Ork models?

Bah you don't know the orc player base at all. Any old orc player with fewer then 150 painted orcs would be laughed off the Waaagh! It may deter some weedy gits from picking them up but considering you can get 120 2nd eddtion plastic orcs on Ebay for about 12$ it may not. Paint is cheap after all.

Stelek wrote:Are you two still trolling? Gee, surprise.

You do seem to attract them now, don't you?

Remember, it's not really paranoia if everyone really is out to get you.

Paint is cheap after all.

"...and the earth did shake beneath the tread of great nerd-herds, stampeding towards Home Depot to secure their trove of Minwax Polyshades..."

Hi guys,

I'm an ork player who has had some experience with the new codex against a variety of opponents (including Eldar). I thought I'd give you my two cents (though, it should be understood that I'm still trying to find the perfect 'recipe' for victory--take or leave my advice as you like).

In my opinion, Lootas are every bit as dangerous as you fear--to all light vehicles and infantry. Dedicating two FOC slots to lootas seems a no-brainer to me. There are enough 'cheap' options to flesh out a list, the Ork general can afford two decent sized squads of lootas. Doing so should allow a decent general to cover the vast majority of the table (subject, of course to terrain features).

I think Lootas, along with the improved shoota boyz, has truly and fundamentally changed the way orks play as an army. Orks are no longer obliged to rush across the table behind their trukks in the hopes of making combat by round three. Now, orks have the option of advancing more gradually while dishing out significant shooting pain--something that was pretty near impossible under the old dex. I have found that a strong core of shootas, backed up by lootas is a tough nut to crack. Especially when there are a variety of toys available to the Ork general which make the stand-off tactics used by Mech Eldar players a little riskier.

For example, there are a number of special characters which can cause trouble for units trying to hit and run (or to deal with units unloaded from transports). Zagstruk is an obvious one. He can deep strike and assault in the same turn. While risky, such a move can, with a little luck, engage infantry and bikes in combat--pinning them in place for other units to mop-up (that is, if they don't smoke them in round 1, which often happens). Snikrot, also, has his uses. He allows a unit of Kommandos, potentially armed with rokkits, to enter play from the opponent's table edge a la wolf scouts.

Beyond these 'special' options, are things like bikes, deff koptas, trukk boyz and stormboyz. Stormboyz now have an assault range of up to 24" (12" jump + d6 rocket pack move + 6" assault). This means they can catch most quick units. Bikes and deff koptas can move similarly quickly and can be upgraded with anti-tank ability. Wazzdakka, for example, has an S8 Assault 4 cannon on his bike and a power klaw for good measure. Deff Koptas can have rokkits, mega blastas or power klaws, as required. Add to this the ability to fleet the army with a Waaagh roll (or multiple Waaagh rolls in an army with a Warphead). This additional speed makes it hard for opponents to hide.

Tankbustas too are better than before at dealing with skimmers--now the entire squad has a S8 rokkit and also the potential for three S8 Bommsquigs which hit on a 2+. (If the 5th ed rumours are true, these will likely attack rear armour in the next edition of the rules).

And still other potential goodies remain. I am now a devout advocate of the shokk attack gun. Sure, it doesn't always do what you want it to... but it sure is fun. Nothing beats a 60" AP2 ordnance template.

Anyway, I'm digressing a little.

Someone earlier said that Mech Eldar players should review their lists to ensure they are optimal in light of the new ork codex. I agree entirely. A few tough, resilient units are going to have a harder time against orks than they did before--these days there are simply too many orks or toys or both orks and toys for elite units to cope with alone. In my opinion, a hoarde Eldar army, if such a thing exists, would be the best against the new orks.

(Though I have the Eldar codex, I've never played with an Eldar army, so I'm not privvy to much of the conventional list-building wisdom. If what I am about to say sounds totally daft, that's why) It seems to me that an army with some of those nasty Guess range artillery pieces backed up with War Walker units with scatter lasers and shuriken cannon with mounds of guardians, dire avengers (with shuriken storm, or whatever that exarch power is called), warp spiders and hawks would make a mess of the current orks. I would favour any unit that had a) a template weapon; b) a blast or ordnance blast template; or c) weapons with 3 shots minimum per turn (preferably 4) [i.e. leave your brightlances at home]. From my experience, the units I've listed are pretty much the ones no one uses; perhaps I'm way off....

...But, if I were looking for a way to clear out some Lootas to let my skimmers have the run of the table, I might use swooping hawks and/or spiders. The grenade pack template will cause some casualties (provided it hits) and the lasblasters will take out a few more. The ork player is now faced with a dilemma, do I shoot the hawks before they assault me? Or take out that tasty looking skimmer across the board. Add a unit of deep-striking spiders and the dilemma becomes a little more complicated.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I hope there's something useful in here for you.

Shamed-1

While the new Orks are fast, Eldar are still faster. If the Eldar can split the orks up or sneak around their flanks and kill the lootas, then its only a matter of whittling units down. Jetbike Farseers with Mindwar will excel at killing PK nobz, and if that is combined with a bladestorm, doom, and a few extra shuriken cannons, you have ork units reduced to seven or eight models who promptly will run away and not rally. The real issue is that besides lootas, orks don't have that many units that are good against armored skimmers. It seems like Jetbikes will be easier to pin down than units inside grav-tanks. Zagstrukk trying to drop to within 6" of an Eldar Skimmer is a risky proposition

Orks have Warbuggies (TL Rokkits) and Kannons (in cover).

Work very well against Eldar vehicles when there are also Lootas on the board...not alot of players run the Eldar Gunline, and until they do it's very dicey getting through the Ork fire with an Eldar army intact.

The problem with changing up your eldar list to fight orks-it only works for orks. Seriously mech eldar is so prevelant because it pounds the other armies. Now you can either change up your list to be more well rounded in the hopes you can beat the mabye 5 out of 100 participants in a GT who play orks, or continue to run your dominating setup and hope your not knocked out on random chance. Any army can beat any other if its built specifically to fight that army. It is when you are in a set campaign/tournament where you will have problems.

Jetbike Farseers with Mindwar will excel at killing PK nobz

A nob in a mob will still have ld10, so the job won't be quite as easy as you are making it out to be. The Farseer will have to win by two in order to kill the nob and if he is within range to use this that means he is just a WAAAGH! away from the front line of the mob the nob is hiding in.

I'm pretty confident that my tri-Falcon tri-Dragon list with four squads of Bikes can go 50/50 or better with Orks at 1500 points. It won't be easy, and it won't always go that well, but it's possible. Orks are quite vulnerable to S5 templates (plus re-rolls) that ignore cover saves.

What people should realise is that when you play against tough armies played by tough players you shouldn't charge headlong and try to get a massacre win. Why should you gamble like that? I approach every tournament with the goal of not losing any games, instead of trying to beat everyone senseless. If it means getting a couple draws or a couple minor victories then so be it. That way one can get a lot of consecutive top10 placements, and when everything goes well and you get the right types of opponents you place first and win some prizes.

I'm just not sure what these tactics discussions (there was a same kind of discussion regarding Necrons and Orks) are about. It seems that people are looking for some kind of miracle army list or strategies that will always by default wipe the opposing army out regardless of mission or terrain. If you play against an army you know is solid against yours, go for a draw, bait the enemy and trade units with any of his that are sticking out. In the end your mobility will usually help you to even get a minor victory out of the game. I do the same thing all the time in Warhammer Fantasy, and often while playing careful the opponent surprises me by doing something incredibly stupid that I can capitalise on and wipe him out.

So as far as lists go, Eldar should probably play tri-Falcons or then something slower based around Eldrad Ulthran. The only thing to avoid is all the point sink units, which means most of the Eldar codex. There's two usable HQ choices, two usable Elite choices, possibly two usable Troops choices, no usable FA choices and possibly two usable HS choices. Build a list out of those units and don't be stupid when you play.