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I think Therion is right about tri-Falcon. The best option against Orks with Mech Eldar is to snake a few squads off them, run away, and play it safe. I don't see Orks killing Falcons with any degree of consistency. Lootas have the "lots of S7 shooting" thing that people like for Falcons, but they're static, and easily killed. Falcons can hide behind terrain, then jump on them and kill/rout them in a single turn's shooting.

Orks don't have the speed to keep up with Falcons, at least not with guns that can do anything to them. I mean, chase down a Falcon with a Warbuggy? Great, now you've missed it, and it blows all your Warbuggies off the table.

Stelek's list is a little bizzare, no question, but I think you guys are drastically underrating it. It can play the game of getting a few VPs then running away very well. The only issue I see is that the Bike squads are far too big to hide behind cover effectively. 10 Bikes each? No way you can hide that. Can't play JSJ games if you can't deny LOS.

Orks are very vulnerable to getting assaulted. Without their Furious Charge, they're fairly worthless in CC, as most any other dedicated CC troop will attack first and blow them away. Stelek's Bikelocks would do very well in that respect, although I'm not sure they'd trade points too well, as once they hit CC they have to break the unit or get swamped, and once they're swamped, they'll die.

I think I'd build the anti-Ork list to be full of Falcons with Harlequins and the rest in Dire Avengers in Serpents. Harlequins crush Orks on the charge, and would be a great way to pick off isolated units (Lootas, Big Gunz). The DAs would be hard to use if the Ork units support each other correctly, but their weapons will absolutely shred Orks, so you may be able to break a Mob with combined shooting, re-embark them, and be out safely.

I think I'd build the anti-Ork list to be full of Falcons with Harlequins and the rest in Dire Avengers in Serpents. Harlequins crush Orks on the charge, and would be a great way to pick off isolated units (Lootas, Big Gunz)

The best thing about Harlequins of course is that once they've wiped out their target the Veil of Tears will save them from a lot of incoming firepower. I don't like the Dire Avengers though. For the price of two Dire Avenger Serpents one can get four squads of Jetbikes with Destructor Warlocks and still have points to spare. I'll go with the latter alternative, since not only do I find them easier to use, they also provide Singing Spears that are useful against other armies.

Pathfinders may be another solution to the problem. The infiltrate ought to let them deploy in range of the looters with any luck. Their cover bonus will limit deaths to anything but assault, and a footslogging Ork force will be further split if they divert to deal with them. Lootas are a small mob. Kill 5, and they're in danger of pinning. I don't think that's too tough for a squad of pathfinders, but I'm not an Eldar player. After 8 casualties, the lootas should be effectively neutralized.

In my take all comers list I use shining spears and a farseer( and a bike autarch)
What I try to do is get a fortune off on my spears before they assault the orks. I try to snipe any nobs, big meks or weirdboys.
Assuming the get 60 attacks on they get 30 hits 10 wound 3 fail reroll 1 dies.

The another nice thing about this is they pile in to get as many hit in as possible so when you jump away you can nail the whole squad with ordnance.

You can hide the Eldar jetbikes from most incoming fire.

What you can't, who cares? You can put a whole army into the unit and you might not kill anything. I know, I've been on the other end of that equation.

You can smash a 30 strong ork mob a turn with my double assault, and honestly do you really need more than that to clear some breathing room and regain your maneuver?

No, not really. You gotta learn to punk one side of a ork horde army--just like all the other horde armies.

Against Trukk mobs the seers can bounce 2 off at a time.
Been on both sides of that, half your boyz are dead before you even swing...and all your attacks except the Nob just bounce. Nob might get a Warlock. It sucks.

gdurant wrote:The another nice thing about this is they pile in to get as many hit in as possible so when you jump away you can nail the whole squad with ordnance.

Consolidate and smart assault moves can mitigate some of that, but it is a very good option.

I don't think orks will be that bad. I think crons have been eldar's bane for a while. A guy from our gaming group has been playing crons for a while, and hes starting to pick up on how to make lists and play em and its very difficult to beat him.

What do orks have that scare eldar? lootas? lots of rokkits? perhaps just the fact that eldar just doesn't have the fire power to take out that many models.

Every decent cron unit has better skimmer killing power than lootas. Lots of orks may be tough to kill, but so is going through a 3+ save and a rerollable 4+ wbb. Eldar can also reliably kill ork tanks, not so much with crons. Expensive BL's against lith's...lol, and fire dragons...lets hope you roll that six to pen.

Eldar combat against crons has its problems just like against orks. Against orks you get swamped, against crons you only stay in for one combat before he ports out and shoots you to gak. And unless your cc squad was packed with power weapons, or you rolled well for you rendings most of those that you killed in the one round of combat will come back unless you managed to wipe the squad without another squad of the same being close or sweep em.

There are ways to get around the necrons advantages, but a good player can stop you from doing that. I think getting around the crons strengths will be harder than getting around orks.

and if anyone can point me to a good eldar vs cron read ide appreciate it.

@Gitzbitah:
Pathfinders will be a good "follow up" shooter to deal with Orks that have already had their numbers thinned, but not eliminated. They give another chance to force a leadership test, plus additional casualties. But on their own or in middling numbers, they won't hit hard enough to do the primary damage to get 20- or 30-strong mobs down to low enough numbers to make them run. They are also very vulnerable to hand-to-hand, and the Orks are fast enough to come get them (especially in trukks).

One to two units could be very useful both as pinners and as bait. Three or four is probably too vulnerable and not powerful enough. more than that _might_ get powerful enough again when their shooting can be focussed, but given how mobile Orks are now I'm not so sure.

I really want to try a Pathfinder-Scorpion force, but I'm a wee bit unconfident in them.

@Gdurant- Thanks for that hint about using ordnance to follow-up a Hit and Run. Stelek, do you think there's a way to encourage the Orks to make bad consolidate choices there? Present a nearby target that they want to consolidate towards?

@LightningGus-
Yeah, it's not killing enough Orks that we're worried about. Therion's points about playing a smart points-denial game (to paraphrase him) raise that issue. Keeping away won't be a problem, but keeping away while killing enough points to net win might be.

I think as soon as the Orks can't get locked into CC with a consolidate, they'll simply spread out.

Nothing you can do about it really.

Praying for stupid play doesn't usually work.

Praying for stupid play isn't good, but some deceptions work on a regular basis. Things that go along with the usual wisdom that are actually not such a swift idea in certain circumstances. I thought bait might be good idea, but maybe not. Orks are probably pretty paranoid about area effect weapons.

Gotta be. Orks die to template weapons, even one or two a game can really hurt you bad.

"This post isn't 100% related to fighting Eldar, but it is from an Ork player who's got over a dozen games under his belt with the new rules. Apologies if it's not well written as I'm not an experienced poster."





I thought I might add what I've learned over the past months with the new codex. As a long time Ork, I've had many years of frustration having to work with a dusky tome of a codex, LOL! I have really, REALLY! Enjoyed getting a new life with my boys!

The last two games I've played have been against an opponent that I've beaten once or twice in the last seven years (ughh!!). He's a regular RTT winner as well as someone who has placed well in many GT's as well as other big tourneys.

So, far I'm 2-0 with his TAU and a new list he's working on with the Ravenwing. I thought I'd share what I have discovered so far with my dozen or so games I have played against a wide variety of races.


First off, I wanted a nicely themed list and decided between Deathskull and Snakebite. I began my games using the D.Skulls and had some good results with the list. I was using two units of Lootas, but sadly never got to use them with the full 45 shots. Most of the time it would be with 15 shots (ughh!) and not very effectively.

I also used two B.meks with Shokk's and kept them back along with three heavies consisting of 9 Zzaps.

The more games I played with this list, the more I sort of felt like I was losing some of what makes an Ork player what he is, someone who likes getting to throw his boots into some arse!

I've since switched to the Snakebites and the trick has been using units that aren't too Techy, or finding ways to model units to give them more of a archaic look (Lootas, Zzzaps, etc.)

My latest list consists of the following:

Weirdboy (Warphead)

Big Mek (KFF, modeling a shaman with a cauldron so as to make a more mystical type model fitting with the theme)

Elites: 10 Kommandos (1 Burna) Led by Snikrot

15 Tank Bustas

Nob Biker Squad x 8 (Banner, Mad Doc Upgrade, 4x claws)



Troops: 29 Shoota Boys W/ Nob and Claw (Since reading the WD battle report I've been using the claw as I know the debates about it til now)

29 Shoota Boys W/ Nob and Claw

29 Shoota Boys W/ Nob and Claw


Forgive me for not having my codex, the points come to right at 1,845 and since adding the Nobs to my list I haven't lost a game yet.

The Nob unit has been the one thing to totally drop some jaws so far, so I'm sure you'll be facing them more than likely with your respective armies. With eight Nobs you have T5 Bikes that have a 4+ cover save. If they miss the save it means another 4+ save to "Feel no pain" as long as it's not an instant kill weapon. The first game I used the unit was against the Ravenwing list. I had two land speeders along with the special character unload on me. Take into consideration the rending rule does not work against the Nobs! I never lost a model to two turns of firing from Heavy Bolter/Assault Cannons and that's a lot of fire (can't remember the insane amount of shots he was making)

You should be into HtH by turn two, and when this happens you're attacking at WS5 because of the banner. 32 attacks and 16 of those are power claw. The unit is very pricey and normally I'd go for more boys, but it's worked so well to far I think I'm going to stick with it (Around 650 points)

Other than the Nobs, the shoota boys are wonderful and I believe the Assault 2 guns make even up for taking away the I4 charge we had in the old book. It's alot of fun rolling 58 dice to throw some Dakka into your foes!

The other unit I'm sold on is Snikrot and his Kommandos. I know a lot of Ork players are going to use Zagstruck in their lists and I have used him as well. The problem is the scatter roll when you come in. I have had some bad results taking a chance to get them close for HtH and then when I've been careful and land them safely they're usually too far out for combat and get shot up too badly to be effective on the next turn.

With Snikrot you have a guaranteed unit coming in anywhere from the edge and they aren't too shabby when you use them correctly. TAU crisis suits ever bugged you with the jump behind cover ability? I assaulted my friends HQ 2nd turn and with Snikrot you're getting 6 attacks on the charge with WS5 and rerolling misses. At S6 on the charge he's quite a gem!

The Big Mek is absolutely a must for anyone who's just starting the new rules. Assuming that any model from a unit within 6" gets a 5+ cover. At 50 points it's one of the best options in the game. I used the Mek with one unit, but kept him within 6" of the other units as well. It really helps getting the boys across the board intact for combat!

I would almost say take two of them, so as to better spread your units on the table, but I have had so much fun so far with the Weird Boy that I can't leave him out!

The chance of rolling the Waagh power, or Here we go is worth it. In my last game against my Tau opponent I teleported a full unit of boyz on his side and proceeded to feed him lead on turn 2. Most people count on you having to move across the table for three turns to be on them, but a turn one or two teleport???? It's HUGE!!!!

I added the Tank bustas last game because I knew I'd be playing Eldar or Tau, and can't say I did a whole lot with them, but my rolling was horrid. I think the best thing they did in my game was draw fire for the entire game (The threat of 15 shots with a Assault /S8 gun will make Eldar/Tau players wary and draw some fire away from your troop squads.)


I look forward to playing an Eldar list this week and I'll let you guys know how it works as it's a list that he's won some tourneys with. I dread playing Eldar, as in the past I've been chewed to pieces by them in RTT's and GT's. I think I'll have a shot though and maybe I'll have something nice to write about when it happens!


Peace,

wOOkie

Not that I know anything at all about eldar, I only took a guardian based list (which people say, suck) all the way to the finals for 'Ard Boyz, along with around 9 or so Best Generals at RTT's (they're still unfinished for painting) with the same base list.

I'm not weighing in on either side of this argument (though if forced I'd choose Eldar because I love em more) but...doesn't that statment kind of make your argument about the Mech Eldar list being crap against the Ork completly invalid?
Summery: IT SUCKS...what does it do? Doesnt matter cause it sucks.

Just thought I'd be the one to point that out. Cause I'm a dick I guess. Much loves though! I'd like to see a game with this kind of set up happen...and see who really WOULD come out on top. I personally dont see a clear one sided advantage to either side fully.