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Some numbers for a close combat council:

For 405 points you get 6 Bikelocks with Embolden, Enhance + Farseer with Fortune.

This means 21 Attacks on the charge

against BS4 hitting on 3+, wounding allways on 2+, presumed armorsave 3+ results in an average wounds:

21x2/3x5/6x1/3= 3,9 wounds

Now lets say it together: Dakkafex-Counter!

The councils main weaknes are psychic hoods, which Nids dont have. It can turboboost first turn and then deal an average 4 wounds to a Fex in one go. Alternativly you may keep the T3(4) Seer out of combat, most likely reducing a Fex to 1 wound in your turn, and finishing him off in the Nids turn.

In contrast to 6 Falcon delivered Harlequins who happen to cost about at least 350 pts with basic upgrades, the council will likely be able to survive a countercharge, due to fortune.

Credit for this configuration goes to Stelek.


My personal choice would be the above unit with 3 additional Destructors. It costs only 30 additional points and massivly increases anti infantry potenial (think Marines, Orks or even Pathfinders in cover). And dont forget: You must target the Fex, but nobody stops you from manouvering into a postion where the flamer templates cover vast ammounts of bystanding Genestealers who accidantly happen to be autohit and wounded on 3+ with no saves at all.


Ps.: Jetbikes do not seem to provide a 3+ save, allthough one might be inclined to think so from looking at the Guardian Jetbike entry. I checked the Eldar Codex and the BBB and by the rules Jetbikes only provide +1 toughness. This means that the unit is actually far from invulnerable with only a reroled 4+ save that is about slightly better then 3+, failing 25% of the time.

Umm, Warlocks Councils on jetbikes have been around for years....

Jetbikes do provide a 3+ save. I can give you alot of reasons why, the best one would be Phil Kelly played his Warlocks on Jetbikes as if they had a 3+ save at the LVGT.

He also wasn't fleeting his jetbikes around...

So at the next tourney after investing lots of time into models, Im going to tell people:

"That guy on the internet said he saw some guy from GW do it too, so it must be right..."

Im aware of the limitations of RAW, but in this case we are talking about multiple rerollable 3+ invulnerable saves after boosting, with no backup from the rules, which accidently happens to be one of the best units in the game...

Raider wrote:So at the next tourney after investing lots of time into models, Im going to tell people:

"That guy on the internet said he saw some guy from GW do it too, so it must be right..."

Im aware of the limitations of RAW, but in this case we are talking about multiple rerollable 3+ invulnerable saves after boosting, with no backup from the rules, which accidently happens to be one of the best units in the game...

No backup from the rules? What the heck might you be talking about? Seriously? To me it seems you think that RAW is something cool and mysterious and that by intentionally misunderstanding something you're dealing with that interesting concept of RAW, but I can tell you that you're incorrect. In the Eldar codex most wargear (nearly everything the Autarch can equip himself with) is listed under specific unit entries. Are you saying that because the effects of laser lances are printed under Shining Spears and the effects of death spinners under Warp Spiders, by RAW those items don't exist for the Autarch and we must look to the 40K rulebook for guidance? Are you saying the Autarch has his special brand of laser lances and death spinners eventhough we have absolutely no indication or hint that that would be the case? What about the banshee mask and the mandiblasters? I don't like to tell people online that they're being stupid, but I'm making an exception here.

So, if you run into a guy at a tournament who says Eldar Jetbikes don't provide 3+ armour saves, you tell him:

Page 60, Codex: Eldar: "An Autarch may also be given one of the following...Eldar Jetbike..."
Page 40, Codex: Eldar: "Eldar Jetbike...increase the rider's Toughness by 1 point, and in addition confer a 3+ armour save to the rider..."

P.S. It's nowhere near the best unit in the game. The Farseer that gives the re-rolls is vulnerable now and even more so in the 5th edition, and one might question whether the Warlocks can ever be worth 45+ points a pop. In the previous incarnation of the Eldar army books the Seer Councils were dominant because a) The unit could buy cheap ablative Warlocks with no gear b) Farseers were untargetable.

Don't forget augment.
That spell was just plain awesome.

Cant say you get on my balls Therion, because the fact that you got so worked up made you post and allowed me to realize my oversight on page 40. Cant really say thanks on the other hand though, the way you formulate your help.

I guess the topic of 3+ save is solved now. Lets go back to numbers and the question if a Bike Council is good.

They're just too damned expensive if they get hung out in the open.

You could kill all three of his dakkafexes, and if you die as a result you've lost points.

The Council on Bikes can roll my gunline up, even with 24 stealers around. Toss in the Shining Spears/Autarch, and it's a crushing blow. Sure, I will eventually kill them...but it's totally disrupted my army....and often as not, until I win combat I'm stuck in CC with my guns. That's perfect for an Eldar army, who can focus the remaining fire on 1-3 MC and kill them. It makes a hell of a difference is all I can say.

Name me another unit that can do that. I can only think of one, but it requires three to do the same thing....and it costs twice as much as this combo does.

Longshot wrote:They're just too damned expensive if they get hung out in the open.

I'm curious if you've ever played against a fortuned Seer Council on bikes?

I've shot my entire Chaos and 4 TMC at them, and killed 1 model or less.

But what else do you shoot? 'Oh no you stunned me' Falcons? JSJ Jetbikes you can't see?

It's annoying and quite effective in my experience on both sides of the ball.

Stelek wrote:The Council on Bikes can roll my gunline up, even with 24 stealers around. Toss in the Shining Spears/Autarch, and it's a crushing blow. Sure, I will eventually kill them...but it's totally disrupted my army....and often as not, until I win combat I'm stuck in CC with my guns. That's perfect for an Eldar army, who can focus the remaining fire on 1-3 MC and kill them. It makes a hell of a difference is all I can say.

Name me another unit that can do that. I can only think of one, but it requires three to do the same thing....and it costs twice as much as this combo does.

Dire Avengers can do a similar job for fewer points and without taking up a HQ slot

Dire Avengers can take out TMC gunlines?

Interesting. May I see your dice please?

Stelek wrote:Dire Avengers can take out TMC gunlines?

Interesting. May I see your dice please?

I didn't mean to imply that they did. Exarchs with defend/shimmershield can keep carnies tied up indefinitely.
However I normally use them to take care of genestealers. They can toast one squad and then stop another inits tracks until help arrives.

But they won't break a gunwall. So they can't actually do what a Seer Council can.

Stelek wrote:But they won't break a gunwall. So they can't actually do what a Seer Council can.

Fair enough your right.
I misunderstood. Though they can hold a monster in check until some else can handle it. Also turns out ste 3 can wound toughness 6 so yeah there is a slim chance that you could down a monster.
It's unlikely though even with a force weapon.

True, it is unlikely.

That's why I run the Shining Spears + Autarch.

Multiple S6 power weapons do make a difference.

Hitting and Running in & and out while the Seer Council holds the line nets you easy kills on Fexes. I usually concentrate everything from the Spears into 1 fex so odds are with me it's going to die and my Spears remain unhurt.

Thats what I do with my list
Da's hold them in place Fortuned spears and autarch run in and murder one.

So we do the same thing with different units then?

Yes, except my council can hold 6 fexes up and your DA cannot.

Stelek, as an Eldar player I can say the only thing that worries me about the unit is the fact that for such an incredibly high priced unit it is quite vulnerable to massed low strength firepower or attacks. For example, what Longshot might imply is that if you get stuck out in the open and 60 Ork Shoota Boyz shoot at the unit it's only 360 points of Orks shooting and they'll kill 2.2 fortuned Warlocks worth 100 points. That 3.6:1 ratio of killing is pretty standard in 40K against any unit, so it doesn't make the Warlocks particularly resilient at all against such S4 fire because of their high price. Additionally, the Farseer is as vulnerable in close combat as a Warlock is and will be the target number one for anyone engaged with the unit. Even if the enemy can cause only one or two unsaved wounds on you before they die, they'll make sure it's the Farseer who suffers them.

I'm thinking of trying the unit out, but considering the upcoming 5th edition I'm not sure if one should go with 'lock bikers or simply with footsloggers. Eldrad Ulthran will benefit from the new 'run' rule which helps him keep up with the fleeting Warlocks, and although footslogging Warlocks have only 4+ saves they are considerably cheaper and can work as a reasonably resilient screen for other footslogging close combat squads. It's all theory on this level of the rumour roundup, but it's something I'd like to point out. One of the biggest advantages of ten man footslogger Warlock squads is that they can take advantage of Eldrad Ulthran who is much more points efficient than normal Farseers.

Therion wrote:Stelek, as an Eldar player I can say the only thing that worries me about the unit is the fact that for such an incredibly high priced unit it is quite vulnerable to massed low strength firepower or attacks. For example, what Longshot might imply is that if you get stuck out in the open and 60 Ork Shoota Boyz shoot at the unit it's only 360 points of Orks shooting and they'll kill 2.2 fortuned Warlocks worth 100 points. That 3.6:1 ratio of killing is pretty standard in 40K against any unit, so it doesn't make the Warlocks particularly resilient at all against such S4 fire because of their high price. Additionally, the Farseer is as vulnerable in close combat as a Warlock is and will be the target number one for anyone engaged with the unit. Even if the enemy can cause only one or two unsaved wounds on you before they die, they'll make sure it's the Farseer who suffers them.

Don't forget you pay extra points for mobility. Those same shootas will kill 6.666 marines (about 100 points, the same or so) and as far terminators and assault marines are concerned it is > 125 points, before upgrades. Those are perfectly acceptable if possibly 'psychologically' distressing results.

It doesn't mean that they are game breakers on their own (even tho they might be ), but that fast moving, hard hitting concentration of both offense and defense (their only weakness a C'tan) is one of the best units in the game.

While 2+ weapons sound good I don't know if I would send them against TMC unless it was necessary Their best use would seem to be against Orks, Gaunts, Guardsmen, Genestealers, etc, the lower the iniative the better.

is one of the best units in the game.

Well since you compare them to Assault Marines you should also always point out that to get to those 100p casualty figures we have to assume the Farseer is untargetable to shooting or close combat and that the Fortune is not failed/dispeled.

Therion wrote:

is one of the best units in the game.

Well since you compare them to Assault Marines you should also always point out that to get to those 100p casualty figures we have to assume the Farseer is untargetable to shooting or close combat and that the Fortune is not failed/dispeled.

That's true. The unit takes a hit if the fortune doesn't get off. Hopefully since it is at the beginning of the turn the unit can do something about it eg turbo boost to reposition etc. As for protecting the Farseer, I think this should actually be pretty easy to do. He's not a chaplain, a Warlock with enhance is virtually the same in close combat and you can just keep the Farseer at the back or generally flanking away. Also, hopefully by the time he (and his three wounds) get taken down the unit will be almost dead anyway and already done their job.

Personally I'm in love with this unit and I can't wait to find some strangers I'm never going to see again at some random LGS tournament to try it against.

Therion wrote:

is one of the best units in the game.

Well since you compare them to Assault Marines you should also always point out that to get to those 100p casualty figures we have to assume the Farseer is untargetable to shooting or close combat and that the Fortune is not failed/dispeled.

The other thing to take into account, to be fair, is that the Farseer is front loading another 150 points plus to the unit, altho I suppose that wouldn't 'add' much to the price of the Warlocks considering there's 10 of them. More noticeable in a 6 man squad. Working in concert they can doom something (personally I would have Scorpions infilitrating or else whatever those TL BS4 Shuri-cats are shooting at) and it can always fortune something else towards the mid to late game.

At no point should people be shooting your council that you don't want them to, 24" redeploy and 12" standard move should assure you of that.

Let me just say they are one of the toughest units I've ever tried to shoot down.

Getting mass light fire onto them is difficult given their mobility, so you usually are resorting to long ranged heavy weapons fire to try and kill them. Same thing with the mobility, you can hide from most of it and hit where you want to. It's very difficult to bring down enough of the unit to make a difference before it slams into you.

I do what Tacobake says to protect my Farseer, I keep him in the back. He's just a cheerleader, after all.

The problem here Stelek is that you're assuming other people play underpowered lists against your council. Genestealers are a terrible selection for a nidzilla army.

24 stealers is free victory points to a seer council. Equivalent points in spinegaunts is a mass ass pounding fest for the seers (fyi that's 75-100 gaunts).

Really? Why do you think so? I'm of a different opinion, esp in tournaments that run escalation and your gaunts are wasted units. They also get owned by Marines.

24 Stealers cripples the seer council. Considering the points involved and the fact the Stealers have nothing else to do, why is this a bad trade?

Spinegaunts don't kill the Seer Council. Not today, not tomorrow, not in the next Codex, not in 5th edition...

Thinking they will is IMO showing a serious lack of experience playing gaunts vs the seer council.

You can't catch them. You get shot then assaulted away by them. They drag you down in huge numbers, just like Orks. 6+ save and anything less than WS5 I5, well you are going to be cleared out of the kill zone in huge numbers. Really, honest, you are. \

I run all of my lists against my Eldar. The Orks and the Nids give the Eldar a run for the money. Marines (drop and gunline), IG (drop and gunline), and well just about every other army I run/face has folded against them. Soon I plan on testing the DE Webway portal out, guess we'll see how that goes.

Try it with a hundred gaunts and see how they do. The seers either--


1) Kill a carnifex in assault and get counter-shot/charged by spinegaunts
2) spend the whole game killing spinegaunts and get shot to pieces by the rest of the nid army

The reason spinegaunts are so dangerous is that they can manipulate whether they flee or don't by careful placement of synapse. they also do an amazing amount of close range shooting for the points.

All it takes is one round of you screwing up and getting caught out or in combat at the wrong time, and your Farseer is dying to implant attacks or your squad is getting shot up and rolling their pinning/LD tests on 5 or 6.

If you start getting close enough to the spinegaunts to kill them, you're in the danger zone. And if you want to get close enough to kill my monsters, you're gettin close to spinegaunts.

And you have no choice, basically. If you get close enough to shoot one squad, the rest of the nid army is going to shoot you (including the spinegaunts). If you assault one squad of spinegaunts, you get hit by a flyrant and the rest of them next turn, and it shouldn't take a math wiz to tell you who wins when 40 spinegaunts and a Flyrant charge 6 warlocks.

p.s. I hope you like rolling Fortune on Ld 6.

Im considering to convert a Council on bikes, but two things bother me:

- in a 60% Marines environment with Librarians being the HQ of choice and a chance of 42% for triggering psychic hood to screw Fortune, a Seer Council on bikes seems to be quite a gamble...

- Being countercharged will be inevitable - will the Farseer likely survive that ?

If I ran a Seer Council with 10 Warlocks I would expect that by the time my Farseer got killed I would have maybe four Warlocks left and they already would have done some damage.

With 6 bikes call it two or three Warlocks.

Farseers used to be protected in close combat a bit w/ their T4 because it was easier to get wounds on T3.

Off topic but can bikes run in 5th ed?

common sense says no, but you never know what the dex team is drinking.