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gdurant wrote:common sense says no, but you never know what the dex team is drinking.

I was going to bitch (gak?) that Eldar bikes don't have the long ranged options of Space Marine bikes but we can turbo boost anyway so OK.

Name me another unit that can do that. I can only think of one, but it requires three to do the same thing....and it costs twice as much as this combo does.

No bikes cannot run in 5th edition.

Seer Council on bikes is a 'I hit you when I want to hit you' unit. So if Fortune gets stopped, try again next turn.

Not everyone runs Librarians. And most other armies cannot stop it at all.

Farseers are protected just fine in CC, but it's up to YOU to protect them.

Just my 2 cents.

Stelek wrote:Seer Council on bikes is a 'I hit you when I want to hit you' unit. So if Fortune gets stopped, try again next turn.

makes sense.

I was thinking along that line too, Stelek. Aint that a good reason to keep the council rather small, to be able to hide it the turn it fails fortune?

In my experience its hardest to implement dependable anti tank in an Eldar list. This let me consider a Council like this:

Farseer, bike, Fortune, Spear

4 Locks, bikes, 4 Destructor, 4 Spears

for 350pts

Pros:

- A unit that can manuver to get sideshots on vehicles and is small enough to hug cover, occasionally using the Jetbike backup move in the assault phase. Combined with fortune this unit should not suffer from "one hit wonder" syndrome like Firedragons do.

- Alike Firedragons though, it has tremendous anti vehicle power with 5 "Lascannon-shots" at BS4-5 plus ten close combat attacks again at Str9 ( The rules do allow this, dont they? ) if needed. After rereading the Monolith rules, Spears even seem to work there! (right?)

- Finally there is 4x Destructor for massive cover ignoring anti infantry potential, with the option to hide afterwards by either assaulting the remainders, or with jetbike move.

- Against TMCs the unit loses a lot of offensive potential, but still stays worthwile as a finisher, or as a tarpit.

- And then theres the price: 350pts ! Compared to other Councils this is damn cheap for what it can do imo.

raider, you need to drop at least one destructor for an embolden to help with the HtH.

Also spears cost the locks 1 hth attack each, so you improve your ranged anti armor at the cost of your hth.
Even agasinst armor assuming your target vehicle has not moved more than 6" you can hth it and the extra attack from the sword + pistol pretty much makes up for the lost str 9 ranged shot of the spear.

I don't keep my seer council small because it isn't that difficult to hide it when I don't have much else in my army TO hide. Plus, half the time the councils role is to be shot at. Really demoralizing when your uber bang bang army doesn't do anything.

Stelek makes some great points and it is funny that when the Eldar codex came out, people thought I was an idiot for suggesting a bike counsel. However, I see more and more of them popping up. I guess my initial assumptions about the unit were correct. The ability to JSJ, Fortune, Turboboost and Str9 weapons is really what makes this unit a Jack of all Trades, that really hammers the F@@k out of certain armies. Embolden to re-roll your Fortune tests is actually safer than Runes of Witnessing. The Necrons are a great foil to this unit, but it requires a smart necron player.

Capt K

How do you think the Necrons are a foil for this unit?

I've only played 2 games against them, 1 a monolith build and the other a warrior phalanx. I did allright.

Tactics? Or something else?

A little of both. Destoyers, Immortals and good tactics can ruin their day, but it requires at least 2 monoliths and...like I said a smart Necron player. I have yet to encounter a really good Necron player though. Still, I think the unit choices and the use of portals, etc. can really hurt that unit...or render it combat ineffective.

Capt K

Stelek wrote:How do you think the Necrons are a foil for this unit?

I've only played 2 games against them, 1 a monolith build and the other a warrior phalanx. I did allright.

Tactics? Or something else?

Ah by leaving CC. What I usually do with Necrons with my council is charge in to multiple units across the board. They're almost always close to each other anyway.

Run in, win combat, and see how many break. If none do, it's usually very difficult to pull enough necron units out of combat to be able to shoot me. With hit & run shining spears around, you can usually paste a squad of necrons a turn.

Using Shining spears would definitely help. I was only commenting just on the Bike lock retinue though. The list that I saw that had potential was a 2 monolith veil lord list. Although I don't think that the player was truly experienced enough to really sock it to any list like that, but he had the tools in place to do it. Pulling out 3 units a turn is annoying.

Capt K

True. I guess my question then is, with the bikes...why attack necrons first instead of the monoliths? They are really easy to down with a full squad, even needing 6's to hit.

If they attack the lith wont the warriors walk up and rapid fire them out of existence?
They are resilient, but at close range 40 warriors will wipe them off the board.
And how do shining spears kill a full warrior squad? 15+ warriors will laugh at spears as they take the hits, warp out, bring back most of the fallen, and kill the spears.

Chuckle.

40 Warriors will have a fun time trying to kill the seer council. Not sure who the hell is running 20 man warrior squads anymore, but hey if they wanna teleport through the monolith and lose guys; works for me.

Shining spears + council is a lot of attacks in. Spears hit & run before you warp out, so they go ---> where your liths aren't, and you can't shoot the spears, see? The council is pretty resilient.

By the by, embolden + farseer does not equal re-rolls on psychic tests, which still aren't leadership tests per se.

Let's say I'm a goof and let the necrons hit me with 30 Warriors worth of shots.

60 shots, 40 hit.
20 wound.
13.34 pass.
8.89 pass 2nd try.

I lose 4 bikes.

Not exactly a wipe out, but since the Council is there to fight certain enemies and this isn't a primary target (why engage warriors in combat if they can leave? Remove leaving then get into CC)....not until the liths are dead.

If you have 2x20 Warriors and 2xMonoliths + 1 Lord with res orb and viel...that's 1390 points. What else ya got in that army? Another 20 Warriors? A few destroyers? Oh boy....

The three teleporting army i am most acquainted with is 2 liths, 1 lord, 3x18 warriors and is 1500 or so.

Very hard to kill anything and keep it down.
The objective with the army is simply not to die. And it is good at it.

O, and spears are never gonna hit and run far enough to get away from the necrons. You simply don't move far enough unless there is a handy piece of terrain there.

You think so? An immobile army and I can't get away from rapid firing warriors? Come on.

Nuts, here I was painting fire prisms to recreate Stelek's uber bang bang army of doom, and now I find that I need a unit of shining spears and 7, or is it 10 jetbike mounted warlocks (and an autarch....). And, it looks like doing the conversions will require sawing warlock figures in half.....And my warlocks on foot were so pretty....

On the French GW site it shows a $47 conversion kit to make the warlock on a jet bike.

Might someone digress and point out if there is a less expensive way of getting the Seer Council saddled up?

Oh, and I had been so happy with the Uber bang bang army of doom eldar because it actually let me use my Vypers, which other pundits had pronounced overpriced...

Buy the boxed set from apoc. Put swords and some cloaks on the guardians.

Tada. 47$, almost as funny as the rest of your post.

You think so? An immobile army and I can't get away from rapid firing warriors? Come on.

Its not a question of if you can get away (and the army is more mobile than it looks). It is a question of if you can kill them once they seize the objective.

Not bothering to fight them usually leads to a loss as you do no damage and they will end up doing minimal damage (minor win to the necrons)

Besides, you were the one saying you would easily kill them with your bikes.

I'm also thinking of converting up a seer council on jetbikes. What boxset are you refering to to buy to get jetbikes? I don't see it on the US Gamesworkshop site.

I'm wonrdering how effective a seer council is given that alot of space marines around with psychic hood as well.

I'm interested in trying it though as I like calvary in fantasy.

Another question though Witchblade or Shining Spear?

I think Witchblades are better because of the extra attack you get.

Psychic hoods do not stop psychic powers reliably.

Witchblades are better IMO.

The boxset I refer to is the Windrider host.

Comes with 10 jetbikes and 2 vypers.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/apocalypse/miniatures-range/24/

By the by, embolden + farseer does not equal re-rolls on psychic tests, which still aren't leadership tests per se.

You might want to re-check that. Psychic tests are indeed a Leadership test.

Capt K

CaptKaruthors wrote:

By the by, embolden + farseer does not equal re-rolls on psychic tests, which still aren't leadership tests per se.

You might want to re-check that. Psychic tests are indeed a Leadership test.

Capt K

Sigh. If you insist.



Big Black Book.

Page 52.

Psychic powers.

Paragraph 3.

Sentence 2.

In order to use one of his powers the Psyker must make a Psychic test by rolling equal to or under his Leadership on 2D6.

======================

Other food for thought:

Since Masters cannot give Librarians LD10 ( they aren't psykers?) for this test; and the SM Power 'Veil of Time' does not allow one to re-roll Psychic tests because only LEADERSHIP tests can be re-rolled...well, just because one uses a statistic for a test does not make it a 'test' of said statistic.

Oh and GW's design team has always held true through all of their books that you need to pass a PSYCHIC test to pull off a psychic power.

One of the few rare cases where this is true.

Umm ive actually encountred this unit in a mega battle where we took one unit, any amount of points. Some guy on the good team took this with ten warlocks, all kitted out, and bragged out them. I used a ten man squad of Nob bikers with a warboss who had a klaw, and a painbiy. When the two biker squads hit in CC, my warboss had a pretty new set of eldar heads to keep on his bike. They are definatly NOT the best ubit in the game. Besides for killing C'tan or TMC's, there not really that good. I mean id rather have a unit of chaos raptors.

So, in a any amount of points game, you can make better units for twice the cost?

Stunning.

Sigh. If you insist.



Big Black Book.

Page 52.

Psychic powers.

Paragraph 3.

Sentence 2.

In order to use one of his powers the Psyker must make a Psychic test by rolling equal to or under his Leadership on 2D6.

If you are going to quote a rule, quote the whole thing.

P.52 Perils of the Warp Paragraph: Second sentence: To represent the dangers of the Warp, if a psyker rolls a 2 or a 12 when taking the leadership test to use a psychic power, he is attacked. Then the last sentence in the section: Note that a leadership test roll of a 2 the psychic power still works, even though the Psyker has been attack or killed.

So yes, a casting a psychic power is a leadership test.

Capt K

Not to interrupt the rules fight, but how come the oft maligned Mind War power isn't on that farseer with some spirit stones? If you play your runes right, that one spell can insta-kill TMCs. And isn't a spear always better than a blade? You always hit on a 3 or a 2, instead of dependent on WS or just hitting on 6s, in the case of a moving vehicle. Still what is a full air-cav HQ selection cash in at? Five man bike seer council with seven spear Autarch body guard? Probably not enough to get three holo-hulls on the field, which are the real Eldar game winners.