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It isn't a leadership test, Capt K. GW's been saying it since 3rd edition.

Thankfully, they put it in even more black & white for people like you; in 5th edition.

It's a psychic test, and I challenge you to take your re-roll of a psychic power over to a grand tournament and not get laughed at before a rules judge has to be called over.

Silverthorne wrote:Not to interrupt the rules fight, but how come the oft maligned Mind War power isn't on that farseer with some spirit stones? If you play your runes right, that one spell can insta-kill TMCs. And isn't a spear always better than a blade? You always hit on a 3 or a 2, instead of dependent on WS or just hitting on 6s, in the case of a moving vehicle. Still what is a full air-cav HQ selection cash in at? Five man bike seer council with seven spear Autarch body guard? Probably not enough to get three holo-hulls on the field, which are the real Eldar game winners.

Why no Mind War? Pick an answer.

I don't need MW to win.
If I do MW something, odds are I wanted to charge it--and if it's dead, I can't charge.
I increase the chances I'll kill myself if I start casting 2 powers per turn.
I get enough 'cheese' comments I don't need MW earning me more.

Why no spears? Pick an answer.

Spears cost you 1 attack.
Spears are tossed with BS4 from the Warlocks.
If I spear something, odds are I wanted to charge it--and if it's dead, I can't charge.
The Farseer is support for the Warlocks, not the other way around--so he doesn't go off by himself.

Air Cav question:

You can't run two Warlock units with an Autarch in the army. Please buy the Eldar Codex for the reason why.

Costs question:

My Eldar army has the holo-field tanks, which actually aren't the game winners.

Currently they allow you to play like a pussy ass and not lose, but that is all.

I play to win, which means killing the other guy.

Who said anything about two warlock units? I said five jetbikes in the seer council, you know, it the text you quoted directly above where you tried to make me look like an idiot? That is one HQ selection, correct? Then some shining spears, an elite choice, and an autarch, the second HQ choice. Why the flame bait? I'm unimpressed by your hostility.

With Mind War, do you have to charge if you try to mind-fry? It is resolved sort of like shooting, but isn't actually shooting. Plus, it doesn't follow the other shooting rules. It seems like the benefit would be that you could kill or damage one MC in the shooting phase while really focusing on another one. Plus, if it is so ineffective, why is it cheesy? I don't know one way or the other, but I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand.

The spears don't really cost you an attack, though do they? You just attack in the shooting phase instead of the assault phase. Which obviously is a much better proposition against mobile vehicles (a popular council target) than the extra CC attack of the witchblade. Killing a unit with spears only seems like a pretty low probability game. 5 spears killing a TMC? Unlikely in the extreme.

I disagree about the holo-tanks being the game winners. My three fire prisms often are, simply because my pathfinders lack the volume of fire to drop large swaths of low-medium quality infantry or bust tanks with 13+ armor. Really I can't add much more to that because you didn't really address anything with that last point, reserving your energies for vague insults.

I'm not being hostile, I simply know my rules and you don't appear to. Here's some examples:

You get seven shining spears how, exactly?

Mind War, yes it's a shooting attack so why wouldn't you have to charge? Anything instead of shooting is usually considered to be a shooting attack if it has a specific unit.
Mind War does, Fury of the Ancients does not. It's effective in other builds of the Eldar army. If you really want to risk losing fortune on a Warlock Jetbike unit, by all means go ahead. It's only a stunning 1/3 of your points.

The Spears cost you two attacks in that instance, actually. Two Shuricat shots (BS4, twin-linked), plus the extra CC attack vs the 1 spear shot.

Councils should always engage in CC with toughness based units so they don't get clumped up. Even a fortuned council cannot take template hits if everyone gets hit.

Who said anything about killing TMC with spears? I sure don't try to. The massive attacks that hit on 3+ and wound on 2+ do it. Toss in the Shining Spear assault unit and it's death to TMC time.

Not sure why you are playing pathfinders. I run 1 Fire Prism, which pokes holes nicely in a large infantry unit on the flank. Toss in some DBF and CS on a FD Exarch, and you can really cook some bodies where and when you need to.

Not sure how I didn't address anything, I answered your questions.

If you feel insulted, my apologies. I didn't intend to insult you. I'm usually not considered 'vague' about anything either.

Oh really? Show me where they make a claim that there is a difference in a official FAQ or otherwise? I have seen many Eldar players play it that way from all over...and you still didn't refute the portion of the rules that I pointed out where it mentions twice that it is a leadership test.

Capt K

Stelek wrote:It isn't a leadership test, Capt K. GW's been saying it since 3rd edition.

Thankfully, they put it in even more black & white for people like you; in 5th edition.

It's a psychic test, and I challenge you to take your re-roll of a psychic power over to a grand tournament and not get laughed at before a rules judge has to be called over.

I did refute it.

You keep mentioning semantics.

Oh ok...lol. I guess what is blantantly written in plain english is semantics now...lol...right. Other than saying: "It isn't a leadership test, Capt K. GW's been saying it since 3rd edition. " I see no real rebuttal of my points. I suppose a "Pin" test isn't a Leadership test then either, right? Or a "All on your own" test? If you notice the test's all have names, but at the end of the day, they are still leadership tests

Capt K

Stelek wrote:I did refute it.

You keep mentioning semantics.

I agree.

Are we done arguing this now?

"if a psyker rolls a 2 or 12 when taking the leadership test to use a psychic power he is attacked... Note that on a Leadership test roll of a 2 the psychic power still works" (BGB 52).

Why are you having this discussion? It's there in black and grey. What is the case for it not being a leadership test?

There is an issue as to whether embolden works on the Farseer attached to the squad, but there is no clear answer in the rules that I'm aware of.

I notice that the Adepticon FAQ doesn't have a ruling on this issue.

And yeah, using leadership makes something a leadership test. There are a special class of Leadership tests that are _more_ than a leadership test (morale tests, psychihc tests, etc), but they are still leadership tests as well. Since it's not stated that those titles are exclusive, and "the leadership test to use a psychic power..." clearly calls it a leadership test, it's pretty clear that it is _both_. And therefore re-rollable under Embolden.

As for attached Farseers, are ICs with a squad considered to be members of that squad, or merely along for the ride? Since psychic powers use the shooting rules unless otherwise stated, and shooting at the unit would consider the IC a member of the unit, it seems Embolden would as well.

Whatever. I'd give it to another Eldar player, or anyone in an army that had a similar deal.

Stelek, that wasnt my point. My point was it wasnt the best unit in the game. You can still kill that unit with termies that are a lot cheaper.

Stelek wrote:True. I guess my question then is, with the bikes...why attack necrons first instead of the monoliths? They are really easy to down with a full squad, even needing 6's to hit.

What do you consider a full squad? If you have 10 warlocks assaulting, you average 5 hits, which is a little over one glance on average. This leaves you open to shooting in the next phase.

It certainly is possible to destroy a monolith with the warlock squad, but I would think you're better off hitting it with fire prism shots or throwing spears at it.

With regards to the singing spear question (of whether or not to take them), it should depend on the composition of the rest of the army. If you're lacking high str anti-tank fire (no prisms), it's a good way to add anti AV14 weaponry. The only time they are going to be worse than a witchblade is if they happen to miss on the turn you assault, and add an enormous amount of versatility to the unit. If you add 3-4 spears in a larger unit of warlocks, your chances of downing the monolith should double. I usually put mine on my embolden and enhance locks in my bike squads (although I keep the total numbers down to around 6 warlocks).