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Hey all, I believe Ill be getting a hold of a sizeable WitchHunters force soon, and was wondering if there is already a Tactica that's been done, or can any players make any recommendations as to not just what good units are, but good ways to use them all in some kind of coherent way.

Thanks!

I read another post by Stelek, where he mentioned a "smurf" sisters of battle army.....

now for the life of me, I just cant think of any little blue units in the army lists, so if anyone could enlighten me as to what that is, Id be greatful....

also, are the Exorcist bits still available, or am I stuck with using whirlwinds as ghetto exorcists?

Thanks!

Heh.

Smurfs are Ultramarines, bud.

Quite a few players have converted Sisters to be either 'girl' marines or 'naughty girl' marines.

They aren't WH armies for the most part though.

Most Exorcist bits are long gone, thankfully (imo they're ugly as all getout).

There are lots of ways to make neat Exorcists, just remember every player will ask you:

1) Are those indirect fire?
2) Are those whirlwinds?

Don't get bent out of shape, just explain what they are.

I'm sure there's a tactica around someplace. stjohn is a good sisters player, maybe he'll be kind enough to post one for you.

Generally, what people do to distinguish exorcists from whirlwinds is forward mount the whirlwind launchers. Alternatively, forgeworld has an exorcist, but it's rather poor looking.

-Leo

You can still buy the Exorcist from GW

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301700&orignav=300885&ParentID=253112&GameNav=10

My favourite way to play sisters is as a power-armour horde. Take as many squads of 16-20 girls as possible, with 2x meltagun + superior w/ book (and maybe evicerator). A flying canoness and a seraphim unit for counter-assault, and maybe a couple of exorcists for long-range punch.

But mostly, it's all about the cheap power-armour girls. No one packs enough stuff to kill 120 suits of power armour.

They also work well as a mech army. Scuddman was running them like that for a while and he did quite well with them. The basic premise was to take squads of 10 in a rhino with melta and flamer. Drive up with 2 rhinos near an enemy, let the flamers fly, then fire with the rest of the squad. Use divine guidance on hard targets. Exorcists in your back field are a god send. Nothing beats 1d6 crack missiles a turn. Seraphim are great for helping out when you get stuck in close combat. A cheep canoness running around as a suicide unit for extra faith is also useful.

A few tips

2 flamers in the same squad is a waste since divine guidance can only affect one.

Take the sergeant sisters whenever possible to boost your faith and allow you to use faith on your squads. Also remember to have them die at the right time to gain more faith when you need it.

Careful who you buy an eviscerator for. They strike last and are only str 6. Independent characters who are going to be in hand to hand along with other friendly units will find that they are never in base to base with anything to swing them.

There are lots of suck units in the codex, make sure you focus on basic battle sisters, seraphim and exorcists. Just about everything else isn’t’ worth taking.

the cannoness with a jump pack and 2+ save is great for holding up tough characters. she can go invulnerable and make herself very tough to kill. arm her with an eviscerator and i have seen her take out deamon princes back in the last dex when they were stupid killy.

In my experience, mechanized works best for them. It is a fun close range firefight army, and as everyone has said, exorcists rock. 3d6 ap1 missles a turn at BS 4 is pretty brutal.

Phoenix wrote:
2 flamers in the same squad is a waste since divine guidance can only affect one.

How does that work exactly? I play mechanized Sisters, and I want to know if I've been playing it wrong. Doesn't Divine Guidance apply to all guns in that unit during their shooting phase?

oomiestompa wrote:

Phoenix wrote:
2 flamers in the same squad is a waste since divine guidance can only affect one.

How does that work exactly? I play mechanized Sisters, and I want to know if I've been playing it wrong. Doesn't Divine Guidance apply to all guns in that unit during their shooting phase?

No. The reason is that divine guidance specificaly states that you have to work out all the wounds but not the armor saves before you apply divine guidance. The template rules specificaly state that you must work out each template, incluing armor saves and casualty removal, sequentialy (so if the first one kills guys, the second one can't get hits on the same guys). This means that if you have 2 flamers in the squad, the first one has to go off without the guidance while the second one can benifit from it along with the bolter shots. Or you can just forget about having two flamers and go with one flamer and a melta gun.

Not quite, Phoenix. DG says you must "[m]ake the Test of Faith after determining how many models are hit, but before rolling to wound" (p18). By doing it your way, you're breaking the second part of this rule. Of course, the way most people (including myself) play it breaks the first part of the rule. The truth is there is no way of following the rule to the letter other than simply never using DG when firing more than one flamer.

Yeah, that's how I played it, tegeus. But no matter what, I'm breaking the rules. Thanks for the explanation guys.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Not quite, Phoenix. DG says you must "[m]ake the Test of Faith after determining how many models are hit, but before rolling to wound" (p18). By doing it your way, you're breaking the second part of this rule. Of course, the way most people (including myself) play it breaks the first part of the rule. The truth is there is no way of following the rule to the letter other than simply never using DG when firing more than one flamer.

Ok, yah thats it. I knew there was something like that but I wasn't 100% sure exactly which way it was. In either case, divine guidance and the template rules don't mesh well (way to go GW). In either case, you can't use it to affect 2 flamers and that's the point.

Well GW had a FAQ that said you did the first template, and that one got DG but any other templates would not.

Not sure where that FAQ ruling went to. Main rulebook maybe.

Yeah. The rules for templates has changed. You now have to resolve each template at a time, so divine guidance only works with one template. That is why the Meltagun and Heavy Flamer combo is best for SOB squads.

Capt K

Phoenix, what do you mean "In either case, you can't use it to affect 2 flamers and that's the point"? Play it my way (break the "after determining how many models are hit" rule) and you can affect any number of templates with DG. Play it your way (break the "before rolling to wound" rule) and you can only affect one template. Play it totally by the book and you can only affect one template and you can only do so when you're not firing any other templates. There are three possibilities (if not more), and they do not amount to the same thing.

Stelek, I would like you to be right (because an unfavourable ruling is still better than uncertainty), but I can't find any such ruling in the WH and BGB FAQs. Are you sure this was not a tourney FAQ of some sort?

Guys, none of you have it right.

The TEST is made before rolls to wound. So you determine how many hits there are with the first flame, make you the test, and ALL subsequent rolls to wound are AP 1 on a roll of a 6. There is really no disputing this if you read the rules word for word. Acts of Faith last for the entire phase, period. If you've got 4 flamers, they ALL are divinely guided as are the bolter shots. Now, get out there and burn the heretics!

You play it the way I do, but your argument is BS. If you're using it after laying down the first template, you aren't making the test "after determining how many models are hit", are you? All you have determined is that you will hit at least X number of models.

No tegeus, you actually ARE determining how many models are hit because the next flamer template might hit less (or zero) models.

In other words, you resolve the template rules first (one at a time) and then you roll your other weapons, add up all the hits, test for faith, then do another template without the benefit of AP1.

That's GW logic at it's finest, but at least it plays.

I don't see anything anywhere that suggests that's how it plays. Determining the minimum number of hits is not the same as determining the number of models hit. Also, if we followed your order (one template --> normal shooting --> any other templates), why would the successive templates not benefit from DG?

I can't find this fabled FAQ either--you sure you don't have it saved somewhere?

Don't take the 'Circus' units if you want a solid army. Unless it's city fight, or you don't mind watching them get wiped off the board by spitballs and lasguns. If it doesn't come in power armor, think twice.

Footslogging sisters are a problem. They're just SO SLOW with such a short range. Supposedly they can work in numbers, so the second rule of thumb is all mech or no mech. If you split up too much, you're going to get picked apart piecemeal.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:You play it the way I do, but your argument is BS. If you're using it after laying down the first template, you aren't making the test "after determining how many models are hit", are you? All you have determined is that you will hit at least X number of models.

Ok, so let's be a little realistic about this. The reason that you are allowed to to determine how many models are hit is a BENEFIT so that you can decide whether to use it or not. So, you say "Oh, I got 24 hits, I think I'll definitely use divine guidance", or "Damn, nothing hit, never-mind I won't bother using divine guidance." This codex is very old, and the way that templates work has changed (and will change again) since when the codex was written.

Now for those RAW fanatics out there, here's fact #1

#1) "When Shooting, any rolls which cause a wound on the roll of a 6 count as AP 1."

Notice the word ANY. It does not say "any from this template", or "any from bolters", or "any rolls facing north", just plain any.

#2) "Make the Test of Faith after determining how many models are hit, but before rolling to wound."

This sentence tells us WHEN to make the test. It DOES NOT LIMIT the effect of the act. When I'm firing 2 flamers, I know before hand that I will be attempting the act of faith. I'll state this at the beginning of the shooting phase, and I'll let my opponent interpret #2 to decide when to make the act. It doesn't matter to me, because before I lay the first template down I know I'll be using the act. When I actually roll the dice is of no importance to me.

Since there is no way of predictably determining the number of hits with multiple flamer templates (in 4th edition) and shooting, then the WHEN portion of this rule is certainly in dispute. Of course this is rumored to change back in 5th edition in a few months, so it's hardly even worth arguing over.

To take this a step further, consider that this act is also usable in close combat where there are multiple initiative values. Take for instance a Canoness joining a unit of Battle Sisters. The Canoness strikes at I 4, while the Battle Sisters all strike at I 3. They can all benefit from Divine Guidance, but they strike at different initiatives, but WHEN do you determine how many hits there are. Again, I personally do not care when my opponent decides that I roll those dice. I would even be willing to say that it's possible to let the Canoness complete her attacks/wound, roll the hits for the Battle Sisters, and then make the act of faith. The point is that once the act of faith is complete, then it continues to last till the end of the phase.

I hope that helps people to enjoy their games instead of arguing about rules...

Now, to get the discussion back to the original topic,

I would temper the "freakshow units aren't competetive".

As with all units with all codeci, it depends on what else is in your army. Once you start going down the "drive by easy-bake" route of divine guidance, the other units cease to be as useful. They can't keep up and don't support your overall strategy. But if you're playing a more stand-and-shoot army like I do, then arco-flagellants can be an amazing useful unit, even though most "pure sisters" players will claim them to be worthless. Simply put, T5 with a 4+ invulnerable and D6 power weapon attacks can't be ignored unless you're facing a purely shooty army, and if the "run" rumors come true, then having this unit that can move 18" in a single turn without charging could be spectacular!

Arcos are the best of the freakshow units, but they still aren't that hot.

On average, on the charge, you get 1 wound each on MEQ. Slightly less than that after. I'm not impressed that this is happening at I 4 for 35 points each. If they get charged by a MEQ unit with Ferocious Charge, they're likely to just evaporate. I can't help but see a Cannoness Missile System being more effective in most situations, or possibly just a unit of Seraphim.

If they had Extra CCW, WS 5, S 5, or 4 + poison (especially that), I'd be much more impressed. Add to that the fact that they can be shot and are actually pretty tempting targets for Heavy Bolters ...

My problem with the freakshow units isn't necessarily their capabilites, but rather their points/durability ratio. They're all just too fragile for their points, especially considering their mobility. That's why they get so nice in CoD games, where everything gets a lot tougher by cover save & LoS fiat.

I'd just like to point out that he didn't say 'unplayable', he said 'uncompetitive'. Huge difference.

-Leo037

The Grog wrote:Arcos are the best of the freakshow units, but they still aren't that hot.

Again, I'd refer to my original statement that it depends on your army composition. I tried a unit of Seraphim (8 girls with 2x twin flamers and vet sister) and found that they were FAR less useful to my particular army setup than 5 Arcos, not to mention the extra 25+ points.

On average, on the charge, you get 1 wound each on MEQ.

Remember that this is not 1 wound, but 1 DEAD MEQ as they have power weapons. There aren't many units that can compare to that number of power weapon attacks, particularly when they are not charging.

One of the most fun things I've ever said in a 40K tournament was "please take 19 invulnerable saves on your Grey Knight hero..." I've taken out Carifexes and the old nasty Daemon Princes with these guys.

If they had Extra CCW, WS 5, S 5, or 4 + poison (especially that), I'd be much more impressed. Add to that the fact that they can be shot and are actually pretty tempting targets for Heavy Bolters ...

My problem with the freakshow units isn't necessarily their capabilites, but rather their points/durability ratio. They're all just too fragile for their points, especially considering their mobility. That's why they get so nice in CoD games, where everything gets a lot tougher by cover save & LoS fiat.

There's no doubt about it, you do have to play them with intellegence. Being a small unit they are easy to hide, and as long as you don't rush them out into the open they simply WON'T be getting shot. Never once have I ever felt that I wasted points on my Arcos, even when they only got shot up, simply because of their LACK of fragility. T5 with a 4+ invulnerable is NOT fragile by any stretch of the imagination.

And I'd like to point out that I've played them for quite a long time and won Best Overall with them in large (50+) RTT's against some previous GT winners.

And back to the first point, it all depends on what else is in your army and your particular playing style. You mileage may vary.

I think, and this is my limited opinion based on playing against mostly tau and black templars, that to be really effective you need mech sisters, seraphim and exorcists, pretty much exclusively. My cannoness I always arm with a blessed weapon, inferno pistol, 2+ armor save, jump pack and their version of the adamantine mantle if points allow. She is a great anti-vehicle unit who is hard to drop, and she has in the past dueled wraithlords for 3+ turns by burning faith on a 2+ invulnerable save.

Now, that said, I play Repentia and Penitent Engines too because they are fun and are cool models. If I really wanted to win though, they would be right out. Same with the Inquisitor and Assassins. A shooty Inq retinue with 2 heavy bolters, plasma cannon and 2 sages for the reroll is fun, but probably not as good as the points demand. Likewise my Callidus is fun, but sort of hard to use effectively given the lack of CC units to support her, so depending on points I might pull her. If I were to use them competitively, it would Elite Inq with 2 HB servitors, and the Callidus.

Heavy support wise, it is hard to beat out the Exorcist. I could see 2 Exor's with a Multi Melta Retrib squad. Heavy bolters are fun, but the girls have plenty of anti-infantry weapons, so they probably don't add enough to be worth it, particularly since a heavy flamer in a Rhino works pretty well in a pinch.
Penitents are fun, but rarely survive turn one. In a mech list they might do well to draw fire from your rhinos, since no one wants to let them get to their lines. Still, at 240pts for 3, the fact that Firewarriors can kill them is a little disappointing. Anything with real anti-tank (or plasma) blows through that open topped AV11 in a hurry.

Fast Attack: Seraphim are mighty. I usually run 2 with hand flamers, but then we play simultaneous templates around here. Otherwise, one gets inferno pistols, one gets flamer, and the Vet (which you don't have to take like normal girl squads) gets maybe an Eviscerator, or Power weapon and melta bomb. I am not a huge fan of the power weapon though, since 10pts on Str3 power weapon isn't too exciting.
Dominions are fun, but probably not as cool as Seraphim when you get down to point application of meltas. Putting them in an Immolator, then walking them while letting the Immo zoom around dropping heavy flamers after moving 12", or having it move 6" as a mobile heavy bolter/multi-melta squad might work.
Troops: Girls, girls, girls. Flamer (heavy?) with melta and a Veteran Superior is pretty much standard. High points games I sometimes give the vet an eviscerator, but otherwise just CCW and BP or Plasma P. The plasma I am not really too keen on, but it comes on the model and sometimes popping a tank's rear armor, or popping a termie etc is necessary. A rhino is of course needed for mech, though I foot slog my girls to decent effect. Five girls more per squad to skip the rhino isn't bad. I sometimes also make a larger squad of say 13-15 with all storm bolter upgrades to get a fun "Sit and Spray Divine Guidance" unit, but it isn't exactly ideal.
Storm Troopers are silly unless you want fluff and Chimeras. They just are not points competitive.

Elite:
Celestians: 2 more points for 1 more WS and Favored Enemy: Everyone? Meh. I am thinking of making a 9 girl squad of them with a heavy flamer and melta to be an escort for Cannoness 2 in Apoc games, but just for fun. Unless you NEED that heavy bolter and don't have a retributor or Inquisitor to hold it (it is a neat model...) I don't see the point of them.
Repentia: Fun! Cool models! Great with the priest you need for Penitent engineds! Crappy rules for the points! I almost always play with them, because they are fun, and sometimes you kill a landraider first turn with them (true story). The rest of the time, you hand your opponant a 20pts for every T3 4+sv model.
Elite Inquisitors: Cheap way to put some HB in, make for fun fluff, and get you assassins. Just don't get nuts loading them down. They are still S3 T3 after all.
Assassins: Bell of Lost Souls has a great tactica on their blog about them. The big 4 are fun if pricey (I think the Vindicare is a bit expensive). Death Cults are sorta fun, and make great support units for the Eversor and Culexus. DC's also make decent counter charge support.

HQ:
Sister Hero: Always take the Cannoness. The price difference is totally worth it.
Inq Lord: Good for Psyhood, otherwise see above.

The big trick with Sisters is managing that 12"-1" distance of "YES FEAR ME!" vs. the >12" "I don't do much" and <1" "Oh god, it is eating my face!" Nearly everything is at least as good at melee as you are, save Tau, IG and Grots. You can pull some annoying things vs Necrons though...

When I get back from lunch, my noobish consideration of Acts of Faith, or "Why We Don't Call Sisters 'Failed Marines'"

Wehrkind wrote:
The big trick with Sisters is managing that 12"-1" distance of "YES FEAR ME" vs. the >12" "I don't do much" and <1" "Oh god, it is eating my face!"

Yah, that's sisters summed up in a nut shell.

Acts of faith.
Four things to remember about Acts:
1) They only last one phase. (Except Light of the Emperor). So be careful when you use them.
2) They are what make Sisters any good. Try to maximize your faith points, use martydom cleverly, and don't be afraid to use them. If you end a game with faith, you did something wrong. I make this mistake, being more cautious than I should be.
3) Each act is very specific about when it is used. Keep this in mind.
4) Build your units based on what acts you want them to use. Don't make a 6 girl Dominion squad and planning on rolling under their unit size for Divine Guidance, for instance.

There are just a few Acts, and only two are really important. In order of their appearanceon the reference sheet (which you NEED a copy of, so download it from GW's site right now and print it out. Seriously.)
Hand of the Emperor: Not very useful. Getting +2 str is nice, but hitting at the same time as power fists without the power part sucks. Not terrible though if you are swarming with girls, need very high numbers to wound, and the enemy has better initative (which isn't too uncommon.) Really though, even with power armor, having WS 3 and T3 means you probably won't live to hit back, and if they have decent armor, they will laugh. Which is why Hand of the Emperor is not as good as…
Divine Guidance: Your best friend. Seriously, if you are going to play Sisters, this will be your most common act of faith. The different effects mean you want to choose when to use it, but most often you will be kicking it in Even the humble bolter can down a Daemon prince if you put enough Str 4 AP1 shots into them. Mixed with flamers, this can be a scary act. Mixed with 19 other girls rapid firing bolters into a target, and you will be praising the Emperor while your opponant bewails his allegience to whatever dark being he worships.
Even in melee where Sisters usually languish this can be really handy. When you are fighting say marines, you need a 5 or 6 to wound anyway, so why not make those 6's certain kills? This is particularly fantastic vs. plague marines and necrons, who don't get their FNP/WBB rolls vs power weapons. That generally surprises the hell out them.
The key to using this well is that you attempt it AFTER rolling to hit, but BEFORE wounding. So if you roll really well shooting, kick it in. If you roll 35 1's and 2's, save the faith.
You can also combine this with Hand of the Emperor, which is sort of weak, or The Passion, which is pretty nice to make certain you do some damage.
Spirit of the Martyr: Your other best friend. Your Cannoness can rock a 2+ invulnerable for rolling under her Ld and giggle at frustrated wraithlords. Your Seraphim shrug off anti-tank fire and power fists. Great fun. The tricky part to remember is that you need to roll at the beginning of the phase, so remind your opponant to let you know when he is changing phases, and plan on what you don't want to die. Since my Seraphim are dear to me, and usually in a position to get shot to death (because they are scary) I will often use them as a screen to force priority checks, or as melee speed bumps. Pop Martyr, and suddenly my opponant has to decide whether he wants to tag scary seraphim who won't die, or shoot a cheap Sister. Alternately, the scariest CC units don't do much vs. 3+ invulnerable saves ("What Harliquin's kiss? We don't swing that way, xenos filth!" Just yesterday I had one unit of Seraphim soak up a Crisis suit command squad of plasma and melta and two units of sniper drone teams in one turn and lost 1 girl.
This can also make small squads of foot slogger girls into a mini-tar pit, giving you time to reposition your forces to obliterate the enemy when they wipe your girls during their turn. Clever use of this ability can really become a strong lever to control game play.
The Passion: +2 Initative. Yay? Getting involved in close combat is generally not in the girl's favor, even vs. IG and Tau. Seraphim benefit pretty well with their higher initiative, and with Divine Guidance is an expensive way to get a lot of kills against I5 meanies before they swing back, but only in a pinch. This has it's place, but not much of one.
Light of the Emperor: Sort of want. It can be a really nice way to save that <50% seraphim squad from an unlucky Ld roll. Generally though, making an army of Ld8-9 models fearless is not as exciting. It falls into that category of "really situational." Maybe you could use it last turn to keep falling back units from giving up VPs, or keeping a unit likely to fail morale in CC from being wiped. Not really exciting, but who knows. Nice to have though, don't forget it.

Other odd notes to remember: There are approximately 243,354 special rules for the army. Keep the reference sheet and codex handy to double check. For instance, did you know that Force Weapons don't insta-kill Sisters, only counting as power weapons? I didn't till about 3 minutes ago. Holy Rage movement for Penitent Engines and Repentia is not affected by difficult terrain either. The entire Codex is a flagrant violation of the "special rules for the purpose of special rules", so make certain you know them all.

The Emperor Protects.

Thanks for that post, Wehrkind. Extremely informative for friends and foes alike. Good summary of faith powers and when to use them.

I also had no idea that Sisters had special resistance to Force Weapons. Go figure.