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You forgot about inducted and allied troops Wehrkind. This is something that most WH players players really miss out on.

Here are a few ideas that might give a new meaning to playing a Witch Hunters army instead of just just playing a Sisters of Battle army.

1) Allied I.G. Guard would kill for this. Take 2 units of Armored fists as troops. This gives you a very cheap 10 wound las/plas squad that is unlikely to run away due to the ubiquitous Book of St. Lucias. Add to that a Chimera, which is an excellent weapons platform all by itself.

2) Once you've got those two units, take a Leman Russ. you know you want to! AV 14 and S8 AP3 ordnance. This will take a LOT of fire off of your exorcists which is a very good thing.

3) Do your Sisters still need more long range anti-tank? Ok, now take a lascannon sentinel! At only 55 points they're one of the cheapest lascannons in the game.

4) Once you've got that covered, fill the rest with Sisters. You'll have enough firepower to make an excellent gunline that your opponent will fear to charge due to the 12-18" zone of death that sisters are renowned for. A jump pack cannoness with the blessed weapon is just plain mean.

5) Need some last minute help to stem a charge or attack stuff out of line of sight? Get a Callidus assassin.

6) To get that assassin though, you're going to need an inquisitor. So, why not take a DH inquisitor? That +1 to go first can make huge difference against skimmer armies, and a Psycannon can be great at killing stuff at range too, particularly when the new Daemon codex comes out.

7) Celestians, well, if you want the Arcos, then you're going to need a good place for the priest, and Celestians are a very cheap source of faith points for a minimum sized unit. Arm them with a flamer and hvy flamer along with an evicerator for the priest. This can make an excellent close up unit for when things go toe-to-toe.

8) If you really want an excellent counter-charge unit, Arco Flagellants are excellent. With all that firepower, your opponent is likely going to be rushing at you hoping to come to grips with your "weak" T3 units. Let them fight a few rounds with your invulnerable Celestians and counter-charge with arcos.

Combine all these units into a single army and you've got all your bases covered. It certainly is not a "press here to win" type army, but when played with skill, it can overcome almost any foe.

There is a whole range of options that most WH players completely ignore. Unfortunately this leads to there being really only one "good build" which is exorcists, along with drive-by Sisters and Seraphim.

That's really a shame too, because there are other ways to build competitive Witch Hunters, it just takes some imagination and the willingness to collect miniatures other than pure sisters. Don't listen to those with no imagination, there is more than one powerful build for WH, but you've got to think the army out in advance and know it's capabilities and how to use it.

I don't think it's fair to say that most WH players "miss out on" or "completely ignore" inducted troops, unless you'd also say that Deathwing players "miss out on" or "completely ignore" Tac Marines, Thousand Sons players "miss out on/completely ignore" Khorne Berzerkers, etc. For the most part, people who play all-SoB armies do so simply because they want to play all SoB armies (and why not? SoBs are awesome). Save the "lack of imagination" allegations for Nidzilla, please.

Sisters players frequently discount the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as well, thinking them useless...they're not.

Their mindset is that stormtroopers are 10pts and sisters are 11pts, why bring the troopers? If you really want to build a VERY competetive sisters list, with min/max'ing included, you MUST bring the stormtroopers.

If you're building a drive-by list, five stormtroopers with melta and rhino with smoke/EA clocks in at just under 120 pts, filling troops squads with sisters units REQUIRES you to build full 10/sister units, much more expensive. In 1850, My drive-by list features 12 scoring units 5 Immolators, 4 Rhino's, and 3 Exorcists...its the only way that Immolators/Rhino's survive to get there against some shooty armies....there are too many targets popping smoke with EA.

I've been a sisters player now since the current 'dex came out, my drive-by list is HARD with lots of wins to its name, and lemme tell you something....I HATE SERAPHIM!

I know I'll get flamed here but another thing to consider, in a drive-by list, seraphim are overpriced and crap. Rhino's (and immolators) are fragile, you need MORE if you want to get over there to start burning stuff. Seraphim are a huge toughness 3 point sink. Jumppackers that cant fight in HtH against other dedicated HtH troops and have to get close in order to shoot their weapons...they're garbage, at the very least, garbage in a drive-by list. (I think they're terrible in ANY context) Sisters players just wont let go of them though because apparently you cant run a sisters list without them....I do though, and win all the time with the girls. ANY other unit of actual sisters is better, including dominions.

Celestians are fabulous, 5-man squads availiable with Immolators as transport...they burn the hell out of everything, and they control HtH...not win...CONTROL by being able to go invulnerable since their model count is low in the squad. You make sure that they die on THEIR (meaning your opponents') turn then move in for promethium death on the offenders. WAY more useful in HtH than crumby Seraphim.

In a drive-by list, dont forget bolter-stake Xbows for those 'Lash Princes and Hive Tyrants. You'll be glad you spent 30 pts on 3 of them when the Flyrant dies looking like a pin-cushion.

Palatines are enough, Cannonesses are a waste, this isnt a HtH list, its a close range SHOOTING list, THATS what Sisters armies excel at. Spend points on units that allow you to do that well. Celestians are enough for HtH and dont need eviscerators, HtH just needs to be CONTROLED, not won. Cannonesses may be the best thing we have going in HtH next to the Saint, but those points are better spent on another Immolator or more guns.

Don't be afraid to play 3 Exorcists. Sometimes it will get you looks, but you'll be vindicated in those games where you cant seem to roll over a 2-3 for how many shots you get and always seem to have a 50% hit rate. On the other hand, its priceless to Knock down Monoliths with penetrating hits after getting lucky and launching 15-18 missles at them...no Monolith will survive that. They're very Orky weapons in that you really cannot count on them. Oftentimes they're no better than a single marine firing a Krak Missle, this is annoying after paying 135 pts for one....othertimes the potential for brutal firepower delivers a crippling blow.

Not to sound like a novice, but what is this "drive-by" you mention? Is it a tactical doctrine?

Seraphim, used correctly, are a set-up unit. They're not going to win an assault by themselves. What they're going to do is charge your opponent's incoming assault unit, preventing that unit from tying up all your bolters. They'll remain engaged with the enemy until the end of the enemy's turn, gaining an inv. 3+ save in order to do so, then hit&run out of the fight, leaving the enemy troops exposed to more rapid-fire bolter action on your next turn. If any enemy survives, assault again, and tie them up again.

Maybe that's not as important in a drive-by list. I tend towards the horde sister approach, eschewing fragile rhinos for more suits of power armour than anyone can really expect to kill. In this sort of list, the seraphim are pretty necessary to prevent you from having 20 bolters tied up in assaults.

Let me clarify a few of my previous statements.

Seraphim are excellent because they give faith, fight reasonably well, but most importantly have Hit and Run. The best way to use them it to act as a shield for your shooty girl squads. The seraphim and girls move up. Rapid fire your target, shoot some flamers or whatever with the Seraphim. Charge Seraphim. Use Spirit of the Martyr to make certain you live into your opponant's turn. This is easy if you have the Vet seraphim, since you are rolling 3d6 and picking the most favorable 2. End of opponant's assault phase, hit and run, leaving his troops in perfect rapid fire location.
Now, that is good by itself, but it also opens interesting options. Where do you hit and run to? If you think you need to pound that unit again, hit and run right next to it, and open up with flamers etc. all over again. If you think the shooty girls are going to mangle it enough, use that 3d6 hit and run to shoot to the opponant's back field. Add that to the 12" move, and the 6" assault, and you can easily get next to those basilisks or other shooty type units for more flaming/eviscerating/melta bomb action.

Cannoness: Ok, if you are running Storm Troopers, or lots of inducted fellows, you probably don't need the extra faith from the Cannoness as opposed to the palatine. Otherwise, an extra faith point and better stats is definitely worth it. There is no other place you are going to spend 20 points for all that.

Storm Troopers: I still don't like them. End of the day, I can spend one more point per model and get bolters and power armor, not to mention some faith. In an army largely devoid of Sisters I can see faith not counting for much, but honestly in that case I would be inducting the hell out of some guard or space marines, not spending points on Storm Troopers. If you are going to take them, put them in a Chimera rather than a rhino. Better weapons options, and more AV. Let your opponant shoot your stormie's ride rather than the box of bolters.

Celestians: There is really very little point for them. Even if you take 5 to get a priest, you are dropping at least 65 points. For 110 points you could take a full girl squad of 10 and get 5 more bolters, and 5 more girls with not much less combat ability. Plus side, Celestians are auto faithful, so you don't need to drop extra on a Vet. Downside, the priest means they have to assault, so expect opponants to complain that you rapid fired to prevent your St3 T3 girls from assaulting. Personally, if I am not using the Repentia as a priest container, I prefer using them with Dominions. 5 Dominions are cheaper than 5 Celestians, and I can put more special weapons on them.

Arcoflagelants: I just don't like a model that costs 45 points and kills itself. I think they are kind of neat fluff wise, and if I were going to make an all Inquisitor type list with stormies and such, I would probably include them. I just don't think they are particularly worth the expense.


Inducted Guard: I actually kind of like the idea, the only trouble is that the points don't get you faith. I have been thinking about tucking a few lascannons or missile launchers into the list with Guard, or even a 'Russ as you suggest. Then again, I like an all girls list, and I haven't played with it enough to decide if it is worth it.

Books of St. Lucius: I don't care for these. Nearly everything in the army has a Ld of 9, 10 if there is a Seraphim near by, so I don't see the point. Maybe I just never really have bad luck rolling morale, but generally girls don't run. I can see the value if you use inducted guard though.

There are a few ways to run girls, from Rhino rushing to hordes (a mix is of questionable use, depending on what else you have to draw fire.) Adding other armies opens up lots of doors. I presumed you were interested in girls from your post, but hell, you can call it "Witch Hunters" if you have an Inquisitor with a bunch of marines. Go allies rules!

Wehrkind wrote:
Cannoness: Ok, if you are running Storm Troopers, or lots of inducted fellows, you probably don't need the extra faith from the Cannoness as opposed to the palatine. Otherwise, an extra faith point and better stats is definitely worth it. There is no other place you are going to spend 20 points for all that.

It's only 10 points, and the only stat difference is their wounds and leadership, and if you're not using the Book of St. Lucias, then that leadership doesn't buy you much either.

Storm Troopers: <snip>If you are going to take them, put them in a Chimera rather than a rhino. Better weapons options, and more AV. Let your opponant shoot your stormie's ride rather than the box of bolters.

Not even close. A chimera is too expensive and has a side armor of 10. It is NOT a transport no matter what the rulebooks say. It's a mobile weapons platform, or a flying coffin. If it's a flying coffin, then smoke and cost are the only things that matter.

Celestians: There is really very little point for them. Even if you take 5 to get a priest, you are dropping at least 65 points. For 110 points you could take a full girl squad of 10 and get 5 more bolters, and 5 more girls with not much less combat ability. Plus side, Celestians are auto faithful, so you don't need to drop extra on a Vet. Downside, the priest means they have to assault, so expect opponants to complain that you rapid fired to prevent your St3 T3 girls from assaulting.

DeadShane has this correct. Their low model count is their primary benefit. The are a low cost faith point (or 2 if they dye) that can "contain" an assault for a turn or 2, and with an evicerator priest and a couple of flamers, they can even put the hurt onto a lot of different units.

Personally, if I am not using the Repentia as a priest container, I prefer using them with Dominions. 5 Dominions are cheaper than 5 Celestians, and I can put more special weapons on them.

Again, with the "must be in rhinos" mindset. Exactly what I was talking about. When you add in the cost of their Rhino, the Dominions are a DOUBLE the price once you add in a Vet Sister to make the faithful. Also, all those special weapons cost a lot more on dominions than they do on Celestians. Finally, with the priest, I don't mind forgoing the 4 bolter shots in order to charge after flaming them twice and shooting the superiors bolt pistol. The priests evicerators will more than make up for 0.45 dead MeQ that your bolters will cause.

Arcoflagelants: I just don't like a model that costs 45 points and kills itself. I think they are kind of neat fluff wise, and if I were going to make an all Inquisitor type list with stormies and such, I would probably include them. I just don't think they are particularly worth the expense.

You are absolutely right, they are NOT worth 45 points. But they are easily worth 35, which is the cost in the book....

You can easily mitigate the "killing themselves" problem by not activating them early, but in a Rhino based list they can't keep up and will either kill themselves getting to the enemy or not get where you want them in time. Again, it's an army composition issue.

Inducted Guard: I actually kind of like the idea, the only trouble is that the points don't get you faith. I have been thinking about tucking a few lascannons or missile launchers into the list with Guard, or even a 'Russ as you suggest. Then again, I like an all girls list, and I haven't played with it enough to decide if it is worth it.

No shame in having a single army build to play with. However, declaring a unit non-competetive because it doesn't fit into your one army build is ever bit as bad as saying my "lack of imagination" comment!

Books of St. Lucius: I don't care for these. Nearly everything in the army has a Ld of 9, 10 if there is a Seraphim near by, so I don't see the point. Maybe I just never really have bad luck rolling morale, but generally girls don't run. I can see the value if you use inducted guard though.

Then you've never been outnumbered by Orks and lost a combat. Suddenly your Ld 10 is a Ld5, and the girls will run. The BoSL is so good I actually think that it's broken for a mere 5 points. Being able to use it around Guard makes it even more-so!

I presumed you were interested in girls from your post, but hell, you can call it "Witch Hunters" if you have an Inquisitor with a bunch of marines. Go allies rules!

Yep, quite a lot of options, and the overall build really makes a difference. But when you make the fundamental assumption that the girls have to ride in rhinos, it completely shapes what works and what does not.

OTOH, I can't EVER see repentia being decent. They can't hold themselves in a fight, they die easily to shooting, they are expensive and they walk. Certainly beware an hapless dreadought that happend to walk all the way across the table, but that's about the only unit that would lose to repentia! If ever a unit was in need of a price drop, it would be Repentia. And by price drop, I mean around 1/2!

I appologize for any points discrepencies. I don't have my book at work, so anything that isn't on the spread sheet I don't have numbers for in front of me.

Cannoness: Don't forget you also get 1 more faith point and one more attack on the Cannoness. At 10 points, it is even better.

Chimera: Does it not have front armor of 12? I could see it being a toss up between that and a rhino's better side armor, but I suppose it depends on how you deploy them. I do like the better weapons options on the Chimera, since after you unload your troops you still have something shooting. I never tried it though, so I can't speak to it with experience.

Dominions vs Celestians: Who cares if the Dominions have to be in a Rhino or Immolator? With the priest they always count as moving, so it isn't like you are going to be shooting farther than 12" ever. Why not use a Rhino or immolator to zoom them to the front, or use the Immolator as a weapons platform while the Dominions do something else? Particularly if you hate Seraphim like Deadshane seems to, it isn't as though those fast attack slots are going to be busy with anything else. Except maybe sentinels.

Inducted Guard: When did I ever say they were non-competitive? I didn't really talk about them at all except to say they might be fun. I don't like storm troopers, but IG could be a really good time.

Yea, orks generally don't get to me in numbers that matter, but then I haven't played against the new codex. Generally my Seraphim set enough of a melee horde on fire before the charge that it hardly matters. I can see some use for the book, but have never once wished I had it. Your mileage may vary.

I also don't assume girls have to be in anything. My girls walk. It's good exercise and gives them those perky calves that are so attractive. I am thinking of getting some more rhinos and trying it out, but so far I have pretty good success with just having more power armor and Faith than people can deal with.

35 points for Flagellants is sort of ok. Needing a 40 point naked priest adds to their cost a bit more than I like though. You can get what, one unit of 5? So all told they cost 42 points at best, plus you get two annoying ablative wounds and a minor assault bonus on a shooty army. Meh... now if it was reroll rolls to wound, that would get me a Cannoness leading a 10 girl Celestian Squad with a Priest in a hurry. Alas, it is only rolls to hit, which are worth it with Repentia and not really much else. Hitting is never the problem, since the worst you need is a 4+. Wounding on a 4+ or worse on what, 95% of everything, that is miserable.

And yes, Repentia are not good. Sometimes they do neat things, but 90% of the time they are merely a bullet sponge dressed in S&M outfits and carrying a giant chain sword. Which is cool in it's own rights, but rarely wins you games. Those and my penitent engines are pretty much 250 point "Shoot me first" units, but they are fun. Note that I don't recommend taking them though. Honestly, I wouldn't have a priest in my army at all without wanting Penitents for "neat" factor.

Deadshane1, I disagree with you to the extent that I'm not sure it's worth saying why. Useful discussion usually involves some kind of common ground, and the only common ground I can see is that we both like Celestians and Exos. Rather than bang heads with you, I'm opting to register my strong disagreement and skip ahead around twenty posts in our hypothetical discussion to the part where we agree to disagree.

Lemme re-iterate.

I dont wanna make it sound like you Seraphim lovers are slowed or anything. Thats why I said that 'I hate Seraphim' its just MY opinion that they dont fit into a drive-by or fully mounted list.

I've built a sisters list around a philosophy that I personallly think is the best way to run them. I think the list I have is the best that sisters can be at 1850. I'm sure lots of people will disagree with me, thats a good thing though, thats why the armybook is there with choices. (so people like you guys can make the wrong ones) hehe.

Hand of the Emperor: Not very useful. Getting +2 str is nice, but hitting at the same time as power fists without the power part sucks. Not terrible though if you are swarming with girls, need very high numbers to wound, and the enemy has better initative (which isn't too uncommon.) Really though, even with power armor, having WS 3 and T3 means you probably won't live to hit back, and if they have decent armor, they will laugh. Which is why Hand of the Emperor is not as good as…

As a SOB player I disagree with this. HoE makes your hidden eviserator strength 8....this is quite helpful if you are bogged down in a combat with a high toughness model...and makes T4 characters beware if they don't have a mantle.

Capt K

I agree with Deadshane regarding Celestians. They are hands down one of the best choices in the codex. Seraphim don't necessarily suck, but are way more of a situational unit than Celestians are. Celestians are a nice jack-of-all-trades unit that really have amazing flexibility.

Capt K

And so.....

what have we learned today class?

The utility certain units depends highly upon the rest of your army, and your overall strategy.

Some units are completely worthless, which is too bad because they are some the most cool units in the book.

But I would venture this. Sisters are at their best in 2 functions.

1) Drive by shooting/flaming
2) Cheap power armor supplementing long ranged firepower.

Either way to maximize their potential you must realized that battle sisters are wonderful in short ranged firefights, but not so great in combat or at long range. Once you cover that problem (either with mobility, or forcing your opponent to come to you) then you've got a workable army list.

That's true Captain K, I probably should have mentioned using Hand of the Emperor to boost Eviscerators. I haven't used it for that purpose, but have used it to try and boost a Cannoness/Vet Superior with power weapon to put them over the "Christ, I need a WHAT to wound?" threashold. I do prefer Divine Guidance for swarms of girls though, since you are pretty much guaranteed a few 6's (in theory) and usually the high toughness baddies also have good armor saves, so getting the power weapon bonus is cool, considering even if you wound a lot, a 3+ save is going to ruin alot of that effort, especially after a hand full of girls have failed theirs.

That said, I don't have a tyranid player to really hash out the idea with, so the instances where I need to wound more than T4 are pretty rare, other than the occaisional Wraithlord (who generally gets shot to death).

Celestians... eh I don't know. I just don't see how they do melee "well". Still, I am painting some up, so I will give them a shot and see what happens. Still need to grab a rhino for them...

Like Deadshane said, they melee "good enough" to hold. However, larger squads of celestians are actually better at melee combat than seraphim. The only real reason that seraphim are in my list is to lock down my opponents units for a turn so I can position the rest of my army for the following turn. Celestians with a priest is actually an amazing counter assault unit. If you have arcos, etc in your list already..just add the priest to the celestians and watch them go. The celestian's preferred enemy is what makes them a cut above seraphim. Like I said, celestians just have so much flexibility in what they can do that you would be a fool not to use them.

Capt K

Wehrkind wrote:That's true Captain K, I probably should have mentioned using Hand of the Emperor to boost Eviscerators. I haven't used it for that purpose, but have used it to try and boost a Cannoness/Vet Superior with power weapon to put them over the "Christ, I need a WHAT to wound?" threashold. I do prefer Divine Guidance for swarms of girls though, since you are pretty much guaranteed a few 6's (in theory) and usually the high toughness baddies also have good armor saves, so getting the power weapon bonus is cool, considering even if you wound a lot, a 3+ save is going to ruin alot of that effort, especially after a hand full of girls have failed theirs.

That said, I don't have a tyranid player to really hash out the idea with, so the instances where I need to wound more than T4 are pretty rare, other than the occaisional Wraithlord (who generally gets shot to death).

Celestians... eh I don't know. I just don't see how they do melee "well". Still, I am painting some up, so I will give them a shot and see what happens. Still need to grab a rhino for them...

I do wish more tournaments were split in missions between normal and Cityfight games.

Cityfight makes arcos, engines, death cult, and even repentia so much more attractive.

I don't like arcos, Drive By army or Footsloggers, on a normal table. Too vulnerable to enemy mobile firepower, and footsloggers have to advance which makes hiding arcos a difficult proposition. But they are damn scary in a city.

CaptKaruthors wrote:Like Deadshane said, they melee "good enough" to hold. However, larger squads of celestians are actually better at melee combat than seraphim. The only real reason that seraphim are in my list is to lock down my opponents units for a turn so I can position the rest of my army for the following turn. Celestians with a priest is actually an amazing counter assault unit. If you have arcos, etc in your list already..just add the priest to the celestians and watch them go. The celestian's preferred enemy is what makes them a cut above seraphim. Like I said, celestians just have so much flexibility in what they can do that you would be a fool not to use them.

See, the main bonus that I can see Celestians having in melee is that they have prefered enemy. Now, in 5th that will be hot. Currently though, having a 3+ hit is nice, but you are still stuck with some silly number to wound. So you get a to hit roll one better than it might be otherwise, but only against normal troops (MCs, ICs etc are out.)
Seraphim on the other hand, they need 4+ to hit just about anything without ridiculous WS, and 3+ for most anything else, like IG and Tau. So, that isn't as good. What sets them apart in my mind is that they come stock with 2 CCW, have pistols (for that 3+ to hit, Str4 twin linked volley before the charge) and have Hit and Run. Celestians get two attacks on the charge, Seraphim 3. Celestians can not shoot then charge, so they trade X Str4 attacks hitting on 3+ for X/2 Str 3 attacks hitting on 3+. Also, I have to hope the Celestians die when it is convenient, where as Seraphim can Hit and Run on command, flinging themselves 3d6 in whatever direction I want, either setting themselves up for another charge, or going after another target, or even just making another handy screen. The Ld bonus from Seraphim is also nice, if rarely used.

So again, I just don't see how Celestians are -better-. Different, or perhaps nice for standing in a gun line for the convenient charge when needed, but better? I just don't see it.
Now, if they could all take the Sarissa, THAT would be hot. But alas, apparently only Sister Superiors can get bayonettes for their bolters.

I wrote a bit of an Introduction to Sisters (of the Mechanized Flavor) a couple years ago. I posted it here, but it got lost in one of the moves. Rather than reposting, I'm just going to link the main parts of it on Warseer that you can read if you want to.

Please note, that the direction of the suggestions and tactics are for Mechanized Sisters, period. There is some useful information for other Sisters army types - but I may trash a unit that you love... it's ok. Also, in the last couple of years, I have come to soften some stances that I take in it and harden up on others. If there is anything in particular that you wish to discuss, I am happy to do so.

Unit Usefulness Breakdown (six consecutive posts)

Faith Usage

Deliverability and Sustainability

Deployment and Initial Turns Strategy

Wehrkind wrote:
See, the main bonus that I can see Celestians having in melee is that they have prefered enemy. Now, in 5th that will be hot. Currently though, having a 3+ hit is nice, but you are still stuck with some silly number to wound. So you get a to hit roll one better than it might be otherwise, but only against normal troops (MCs, ICs etc are out.)
Seraphim on the other hand, they need 4+ to hit just about anything without ridiculous WS, and 3+ for most anything else, like IG and Tau. So, that isn't as good. What sets them apart in my mind is that they come stock with 2 CCW, have pistols (for that 3+ to hit, Str4 twin linked volley before the charge) and have Hit and Run. Celestians get two attacks on the charge, Seraphim 3. Celestians can not shoot then charge, so they trade X Str4 attacks hitting on 3+ for X/2 Str 3 attacks hitting on 3+. Also, I have to hope the Celestians die when it is convenient, where as Seraphim can Hit and Run on command, flinging themselves 3d6 in whatever direction I want, either setting themselves up for another charge, or going after another target, or even just making another handy screen. The Ld bonus from Seraphim is also nice, if rarely used.

So again, I just don't see how Celestians are -better-. Different, or perhaps nice for standing in a gun line for the convenient charge when needed, but better? I just don't see it.
Now, if they could all take the Sarissa, THAT would be hot. But alas, apparently only Sister Superiors can get bayonettes for their bolters.

My question is WHY are we even equipping to go to HtH in the first place? That simply ISNT what sisters are supposed to do. Sure they CAN do it, the same way a 60 year old librarian can stroll up and punch a UFC champion in the face, but its probably not a good idea.

Dumping tons of points into a HtH Cannoness and SERAPHIM with the intent on going into hth takes away from your close range shooting when all you have to do to control HtH is.....

Celestians get ousted from their immolator, losing one. Celestians fail to roll a 6 to dispell and are lashed 8" closer to Lash prince within charge range. Lash prince charges. Celestians burn two faith going Fearless and Invulnerable, needing only to roll over 4 each time on two dice, Celestians now fearless AND Invulnerable. (fearless is optional, you probably wont need it.) Daemon prince attacks hitting 3 times, wounding 3 Celestians save 2 losing 1. (3 celestians left)......this combat can go on so long as weight of troop borne attacks dont work thru the invulnerable save. 5 Celetians can hold a single character, monster, or defiler (dread) for an indefinate amount of time as long as faith holds up. Even better, you can DECIDE when they finally die by forgoing the invuln save, effectively commiting suicide (gaining another faith point) and have the offender surrounded with flamer and melta weaponry.

If you're talking about the viability of Seraphim VS Celestians, there is simply NO WAY seraphim measure up to the utility of celestians.

"Celestians (5) w/Melta, Heavy Flamer
Transport-Immolator with Heavy Flamer"

This unit Moves 12" and can fire two flamers (one of which is twin linked), pop a tank, deploy and do a job on a full 10 man squad, adds faith to army total, fight in HtH if needed stalling indefinatly using faith, pop smoke to present a target, and look awesome because I painted them....all for under 160 pts. Can you do that as cheaply with Seraphim? I think not. The Immolator adds firepower and makes Celestians less vulnerable in SO many ways in a vehicle heavy army. So take your expensive and situational Seraphim, I'll bring 4 units of the useful girls.

Quit trying to go HtH with the girls. Just like in the REAL world, girls cant fight. If any big muscled guy walks up and punches ANY girl full on in the face, the fight is O V E R. This is one place were 40k is realistic. Women dont fight...except against other women...and I've never seen a mud-wrestling pit as terrain, but I might build one.

any aggressive shooty list can benefit a lot from some quick assaulters. and hit and run is an amazingly useful ability.

i'm just analogizing to my necrons here, but i would never leave my scarabs behind, and seraphim seem to fill a similar role for sisters.

sometimes you need the ability to be proactive in dictating when and were melee takes place.

Most of the points that I would have made have already been said.

Personally I feel that in 4th, Mech Sisters are a very solid army. I've played against them so many times it's as if I owned the army.

However, just looking at 5th Ed rumors, the current WH book looks like it's going to be pretty crazy without the Rhinos. Run up on turn 1, with more sisters (because you didn't use the Rhino), and get even MORE divine guidance love. You can also spend points on Evicerators to help out in the enventual close combat, which should be nice, because now no one gets +1 attack for 2CCW's on Power Fist models.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Most of the points that I would have made have already been said.

Personally I feel that in 4th, Mech Sisters are a very solid army. I've played against them so many times it's as if I owned the army.

However, just looking at 5th Ed rumors, the current WH book looks like it's going to be pretty crazy without the Rhinos. Run up on turn 1, with more sisters (because you didn't use the Rhino), and get even MORE divine guidance love. You can also spend points on Evicerators to help out in the enventual close combat, which should be nice, because now no one gets +1 attack for 2CCW's on Power Fist models.

I had'nt even thought about 5th concerning my sisters, those are all very good points.

Heck, with all units moving an extra d6 if they dont shoot, Retributers with MM's might actually be worth a shot, maybe. Would be interesting trying sisters w/o any vehicles and tons of faithful shots.

See Shane, you are missing the point of Seraphim. It isn't "I am going to own you in melee" it's more like this.

I am going to get in your face, pop a flame template, a mess of twin linked pistol shots, maybe an inferno pistol into you. Then I am going to go invulnerable (maybe depending on target), and charge you. I don't even care if I hurt you, but if I need to, I can. Then, during your turn, I Hit and Run, fling myself 3d6 in some direction. You are now open to shooting, and my Seraphim have redeployed (most likely largely intact) and can go after a back field tank, set themselves up for more shooting/assaulting if needed, or even just move 3d6+12" total to redeploy across the board.

Compare that to "I stand here till I get killed." The main difference is you get to be really proactive. Even if you don't intend to shoot an enemy to death, you can tie them up with Seraphim then hit and run, keeping the girls alive after your opponant is no longer dangerous for the time being. There have been so many times I have used seraphim to deliver some unhappy flamer time to an advancing unit, held it by the nose for a turn, then flung them off into the back lines to get rear shots and melee on some vehicle, while back at my lines the girls have shot up the suddenly high and dry unit.

Now, I agree that the Cannoness isn't exactly a melee powerhouse, but having her tie up an unpleasant opponant by using a 2+ invulnerable save, or lending needed S5 power weapon attacks in a melee I don't want to lose works quite well. Even if she just hops around, burning holes in people's head with an inferno pistol, she often proves quite valuable. The fact she gives an extra faith point for 10 points is so nice.

I dunno, the points I save on not bringing Seraphim and a HtH Canoness brings me some 9 meltas, 9 Heavy Flamers (4 of them twin), a flamer, a twin MM, 4xBolterstake Xbow, Bolters everywhere, 3 Exorcists, 12 scoring units, and enough tank shocking that even Necrons start to sweat for 1850 pts. (I've tank shocked a 15 man unit with lord off of the board before...they WONT be back)

The kind of base trickery your Seraphim present for a premium cost arnt needed with that sort of arsenal. An arsenal that has too many teeth pulled if you bring those expensive troops and a HtH nasty anyway...taking away from the sisters 'TRUE' strength....close range firepower.

I think the difference here is that YOU'RE looking at unit performance, I'M looking at army performance. For what each unit does, Celestians contribute more to an ARMY between their abilities and their cheaper cost in points than your Seraphim ever will, and THAT is why I don't like them. They might be great, but bring them in any numbers with any real gear and your army is hamstrung.

Deadshane, you really don't get Seraphim.
Sure, if you want to, you can use Seras to fight in lots of HtH. Coupled with the Canoness, they are actually quite formidable and can take on some of the best assault units out there. I personally have used them to take out Genestealers, Hive Tyrants, Chaos Chosen, Terminators, etc, etc.
However, the best purpose is to use them in an interdiction method. You jump them past the closest unit(s) and engage the next closest, which creates a wall that your opponent has to go around - stranding his closer unit(s) and guaranteeing its elimination, while protecting your units for another round from being engaged. Then after his assault, they Hit n Run and are free to terrorize the opponent's backfield.

You cannot avoid combat with a Sisters list, it operates in too close of quarters to do that. But you can learn to control when/where it happens.

PS - your strat for Celestians is flawed and illegal. Light of the Emperor (fearless) can only be done at the beginning of your own Movement phase. You cannot wait to get shot out of a transport before doing that. Besides, once they're shot out of a transport - who the heck would lash them? Lessee, I can ignore the unit that I just Pinned because it can't do anything next turn... or I can Lash it and bring it right back into the fight - um, no. Also, a small unit of Celestians is almost always a defensive unit. Where is their capacity to threaten the enemy? It's not there. They can't use Divine Guidance with any degree of reliability. The lack of a VSS with book in the squad means that they can get outnumbered, under half, and scared of that Demon Prince - and get cut down as they attempt to run, giving back no Faith from Martyrdom. And to top it all off, if your opponent wants to, he can just avoid them. They can walk to an engagement, that's it. If they use the higher move capacity of a transport, then they can't force an engagement.

1 Flying Nun @ 122pts and 1 squad of eight Seraphim for 215-230 pts (depending on whether you like power weapons or eviscerators) are not so much of an investment as to hamstring your army - and add a ton to your capabilities.
Oh, and recommending Palatines over Canoness?? Really??? For 10 measly points, you get another Leadership (which is huge when comboed with the Book of St Lucius), another Wound (great when holding up enemy units/characters), and most importantly - another Faith. Faith runs the army. Any Faith I can get for 10 points is IN.

stjohn70 wrote:Deadshane, you really don't get Seraphim.
Sure, if you want to, you can use Seras to fight in lots of HtH. Coupled with the Canoness, they are actually quite formidable and can take on some of the best assault units out there. I personally have used them to take out Genestealers, Hive Tyrants, Chaos Chosen, Terminators, etc, etc.
However, the best purpose is to use them in an interdiction method. You jump them past the closest unit(s) and engage the next closest, which creates a wall that your opponent has to go around - stranding his closer unit(s) and guaranteeing its elimination, while protecting your units for another round from being engaged. Then after his assault, they Hit n Run and are free to terrorize the opponent's backfield.

You cannot avoid combat with a Sisters list, it operates in too close of quarters to do that. But you can learn to control when/where it happens.

PS - your strat for Celestians is flawed and illegal. Light of the Emperor (fearless) can only be done at the beginning of your own Movement phase. You cannot wait to get shot out of a transport before doing that. Besides, once they're shot out of a transport - who the heck would lash them? Lessee, I can ignore the unit that I just Pinned because it can't do anything next turn... or I can Lash it and bring it right back into the fight - um, no. Also, a small unit of Celestians is almost always a defensive unit. Where is their capacity to threaten the enemy? It's not there. They can't use Divine Guidance with any degree of reliability. The lack of a VSS with book in the squad means that they can get outnumbered, under half, and scared of that Demon Prince - and get cut down as they attempt to run, giving back no Faith from Martyrdom. And to top it all off, if your opponent wants to, he can just avoid them. They can walk to an engagement, that's it. If they use the higher move capacity of a transport, then they can't force an engagement.

1 Flying Nun @ 122pts and 1 squad of eight Seraphim for 215-230 pts (depending on whether you like power weapons or eviscerators) are not so much of an investment as to hamstring your army - and add a ton to your capabilities.
Oh, and recommending Palatines over Canoness?? Really??? For 10 measly points, you get another Leadership (which is huge when comboed with the Book of St Lucius), another Wound (great when holding up enemy units/characters), and most importantly - another Faith. Faith runs the army. Any Faith I can get for 10 points is IN.

Touche on one point.

First, thanx for pointing out the mistake in my quickly typed example. I havent played my sisters for probably about two years now, just starting them up again for this years tournement scene. However, since the main thing is the invulnerable save (I threw in the fearless part just to accent my point, failing obviously) my points that I've made are still sound. You definatly got me with the leadership in advance part though. kudos on that. That doesnt change the fact that a five count unit of Celestians is a major tar-pit for monsters and characters though, it is.

...and for LESS than the cost of your flying nun and eight Seraphim, Offensively, I've got two (tank-shocking if needed) immolators with Heavy Flame, two Heavy flamers, two meltas, and 12 bolter shots. After moving 12" just like your jump-packers do. That doesnt sound like they're too much on the defensive to me. If you ask me, 10 girls in their immolators similarly armed beats your 9 flyers all to hell, both in resiliancy and firepower. Faith doenst HAVE to run the army, the guns do. Faith is a tool, not the end all and be all of Sisters.

I also most definatly DO suggest the palatine with shooting sisters. Your post is deceptivly suggesting that the Cannoness is only 10 pts more, she isnt.

My palatine with Bolterstake Xbow- costs as much as your naked Canoness and helps immensly against Psychic Princes and Hive tyrants in the shooting game.

Useful Canoness: Jumppack, blessed weapon, cloak of st aspira (2+save), Mantle of Ophelia (immune to 1xinstant death)- costs almost three times as much (5 pts shy) and doesnt add anything to the shooting game. Instead she trys to be something that the sisters arent, a hand to hand fighter. A usesless attempt against HtH armies.

Maybe I dont get what the Seraphim are all about, but for their cost, I'll accept that ignorance.

I dont think YOU get what the sisters are all about, quick short range shooting and everything that makes it work. Cheap characters, lots of vehicles, and tons of strong firepower.

...those Seraphim lists are the ones that are left in the dust and are snickered at by winning players, while I'm busy scoring battle points at tournements.

Deadshane, I've had that argument with stjohn but I've been arguing against it. I loved my foot slogging sisters, they're just so tiresome to play. Deploy 120 sisters, move 120 sisters. 5th edition comes, and you have to run 120 sisters? Holy arm tremors batman, she canna take anymore! lol

I do find this discussion enlightening, I hope all the other players needing to understand how sisters work are reading.

I think a pure force is fine, and I also think a mix of IG and sisters is fine.

They all have their place. Sisters will be one of the better lists at the GTs next year, I don't expect them to be redone before then and they'll retain alot of power as a result.

Well Deadshane, I really don't like tooting my own horn, but no one has ever scored more Battle Points at a GT with a WitchHunters army list than I did last year at Vegas - and that was my first GT ever.
I know what I'm talking about with Sisters, and have many people that when pulling out armies, they say, "Oh... your Mech Sisters? Do you have another army I could play against?" I've recently started playing Foot Sisters + Imperial Guard just so that more people will play me (not that it's any weaker than Mech - heck it's stronger against some types).

As to your Celestian units. A unit of 5 (should probably be 6 for scoring purposes, but we'll go the cheap route) with HF/MG in a Flamer Immolator (w/ smoke/armor) runs 160 points. If you get 2, that's 320... not all that far from the 352 I'm paying for my 2 flying units. So let's compare what the differences are:
Models
You: 10 models, 2 tanks, 2 scoring units
Me: 9 Jump models (11 wounds), 1 scoring unit
Shooting
You: 2 Hvy Flamers on tanks, 2 Hvy Flamers, 2 Meltas, 6 Bolters
Me: 2 Flamers, 5 twin-linked Bolt Pistols, 2 Bolt Pistols
Assaulting
You: Can't make assaults out of transports. When assaulted, can use Faith to stay alive... can't hurt *anything*
Me: Can assault after moving. Can use offensive and defensive Faith on both units. Can cause considerable damage to enemy units before the Seraphim Hit n Run out of there.
Mitigation
You: Tanks are easily mitigated. Relying on AV11 as a primary offensive capability is not going to happen. Units get mitigated as soon as the tanks are, because then they have lost their primary means of moibility - which is their only threat.
Me: Untargetable IC and a Jump unit that never has to show itself unit it's ready. Only mitigation is against units that can ignore Inv Saves as well as regular saves... but in that case your Celestians are screwed too. My one scoring unit is about as hard to make non-scoring as it is for both of your units (kill 5 seraphim, or 3 Celestians from each squad)

So what's the comparison? You have more guns, and 30 more points to spend than I do. Mine are harder to get rid of, and can actually be used offensively.

stjohn70 wrote:Well Deadshane, I really don't like tooting my own horn, but no one has ever scored more Battle Points at a GT with a WitchHunters army list than I did last year at Vegas - and that was my first GT ever.
I know what I'm talking about with Sisters, and have many people that when pulling out armies, they say, "Oh... your Mech Sisters? Do you have another army I could play against?" I've recently started playing Foot Sisters + Imperial Guard just so that more people will play me (not that it's any weaker than Mech - heck it's stronger against some types).

Your results are pretty cute, for a beginner.

I dont mean to toot MY own horn but I'll see your results and raise with two of my own, while the points might not exactly translate, I think standing will tell enough about how each of our performances compare.

6th out of 136?

http://www.adepticon.org/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=54

...yes you saw right, one point away from best general with my theories.

and I DO beleive that scoring 24th out of 120 might in a gladiator where its pretty much only battle beats your 47th out of 162 (which while decent, isnt really brag-worthy) in a GT where ALL scores are figured....and I even lost a game.


http://www.adepticon.org/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=52

Yup, Seraphim suck.

Ooooo, feel the burn baby! TESTIFYYYYY!

I'll play your stupid mech sisters. Just not with my crappy drop pod army, not till I fix it so castles don't make my podders cry. lol

I've been itching to play your IG/Sister army but I think you want to get like 20 games in against everyone else at the shop before you play me. lol I know I told you I think your IG/Sister army is better than your mech Sisters.

Lascannons + Sisters + LR + Exorcists = Fun!

Rhinos, not fun. :(