Chaos Mortals - WD Armylist Rumors (UPDATE)

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**Boss Salvage**

From Warseer:

Hey guys, got some info about the upcoming hordes of chaos white dwarf update:

Chaos chariots and knights are special choices, chariots have dropped down to 100 points

Marks are the same, with some points changes. Mok may not generate dispel dice, but costs signifigantly less.

No furies

Chaos warriors have dropped in points (down to 12 )

Cost to upgrade a unit to chosen costs 1 point less

No daemons

Might still be able to ally with beasts

Hellcannon is an army choice now! Still takes up 2 rares though...

Thats it for now. Quite pleased with the changes to the points cost of the warriors, but not happy with some of the choices.

More info, in order of reliability:

Mark of Nurgle is scads cheaper. (at last!)
Sorcerers can have the Mark of Tzeentch - I think it gives them some sort of re-roll.
Mark of Khorne only generates Dispel Dice for characters.

Daemon Prince might still be available.

Chaos GIANT will be in the list as a Rare.

Flayerkin will supposedly NOT be in the list. IF they are, they will be altered to be more generic beserkers than Skaven siege-weapons, and they might not even be called Flayerkin.
Although yes, the Hellcannon will be. (with a nice Fluff blurb about Chaos Dwarfs)

There will be a Magic Item (sacrificial knife?) that is related to the Zealot class from Age of Reckoning.

Chaos Spawn are the same, although their Marks may have changed a little to be more in line with the effects of Daemonic Loci.

Marauders will not have access to Marks.
However, a new Core (or Special?) infantry unit, Cultists, will have access to slightly altered (Spawn-esque) Marks. They will be less 'Fighty' than the Marauders, with no armour, less WS/I, and only access to 2HW and Flails. The pictures for them are apparently converted Flagellants, so there might not be new models?

Allying with Beasts of Chaos and Daemons of Chaos is possible, but requires Magic Items. Chalice of Chaos (?) allows you to take some Daemonic units as Special, and Totem of Chaos (?) allows you to take some Beast units as Special.

Mutants were mentioned - possibly as character upgrades (unlikely), a new Special unit in line with the Age of Reckoning Marauders (possible), or even a unit in the next Beasts of Chaos book (no idea). Might be the same unit as Cultists/Marked Cultists, and I'm just confusing them.

I actually like the changes, think it moves toward sorting out who mortals of chaos are as their own army, not just 1/3 of the chaos compendium. I do hope you can take at least a little bit of demonic support, makes for some cool specialist troops and can look nice and bright against all that armor.

Will it make pure mortals more competitive? I don't really think so, but they remain a solid army with strong choices - marauders, (cheaper) warriors, chariots, knights, spawn, marauder cav are all excellent at what they do - and decent characters and magic potential. Just no game-bending stuff like the HE, Dwarfs, Vamps, Woodies that are rocking and rolling currently.

Also, I suppose I like that they've addressed the few "cheese" options in the current mortals list - khorne dispel dice orgy, knights as only core choice, chariots chariots chariots ...

- Salvage

**Boss Salvage**

More:

Palatine Katinka wrote:The list is going to be in White Dwarf in about a month and a half (the same issue as Mordor release, the one after Daemons) so it has definitely been written and probably gone to print.

I'm saying it's in the Mordor issue because the poster in my local GW for the current 3 month sub offer has a picture of the cover for the Mordor release issue and it has in the list of main articles "Warriors of Chaos Army List".

theblackmage wrote:Hey guys, i've been lurking for a while, when i heard some guys talking at my local store - one was a redshirt, not sure how much that means.

They were talking about the new WD chaos list.

Apparently, marauders and chariots will cost a bit less, but chaos warriors will get an even bigger price drop. There aren't going to be any new models for the WD release, but there will be a plastic chariot, plastic warhounds and plastic characters boxes, as well as a plastic mounted unit (they were talking about new horses).

Then they started talking about a new core unit called chaos zealots. They're infantry (with poor leadership?) and two handweapons (they were talking about how many attacks you could get) who can be given marks to make them into thrall wizards (tzeentch), plague zombies (nurgle), or something frenzied (khorne). Slaanesh wasn't mentioned. The other guy said something about a magester, i don't know if that's a new character or a champion.

The redshirt asked about the daemon book, and daemon Princes are still around, and they let you take daemon units as special! Flayerkin are special, but they don't have their siege rules (no chains) and aren't moulder. There's a special unit of marauders, who might be called raiders?

Chaos trolls, chaos ogres, and minotaurs aren't in the list - they're in one unit, called chaos monsters or brutes or beastkin or something - i couldn't hear properly. They can be upgraded into trollkin, ogrekin or werekin.

Rare choices are spawn, hellcannon and GIANT.

Lord of Chaos can be mounted on horse, daemon, dragon, or a big (but not large target) monster thing.

Excite! So demons not defunct, but the Special selection is looking pretty packed now - chariots, knights, special skirmishy marauders or cultists, brutes, demons ...

- Salvage

**BDJV**

I've been following these rumors and I must say as a 24 year follower of the Forces of Chaos I am disappointed. It seems GW have finally gotten too lazy to balance WFB any longer.

They are ripping the soul out of Chaos; it was the variety allowed in building a chaos army was one of the reasons I have stuck with the army. I suppose it's a plot to make more money, which I know is their right but I would have bought at least one of each of the new Daemon boxes if the armies hadn't been split.

This is just another nail in the GW coffin for me, I should really just stick to FOW which is an awesome clearly written system.

**bigchris1313**

Well, first things first: They dropped warriors 2 points. This is a step in the right direction.

Aside from that, I'm not particularly happy, but it could be worse. I think its disgusting that they're taking WFB's most diverse and customizable army and cramming it into a very structured box; however, we're still looking at the possibility of some Demon and Beast unit as special choices. I admit that the special choices are going to be crowded, but it's better than the previous rumors of no mixing at all.

How this is going to be more profitable than the present model I have no idea.

**Savnock**

Cheaper Nurgle is nice.

I also welcome the Cultist troops. Chaos should have some rabble, not just elite warriors (even the Marauders were badass by human standards). Does anyone else remember Chaos Thugs? And the customization options for them look characterful.

The other changes, especially the lack of interoperability with the other Chaos lists, are not so hot. When they do get a full codex, we can expect to see these go the way of the dodo (to sell minis, of course). That may be years hence, but WH seems to be a waiting game these days anyways.

Important question but slightly OT: Does anyone know if they will be giving Beasts the same reami... er, treatment? Like a WD mini-dex and all? Hope not...

**Ozymandias**

Ahhh Chaos Thugs. They had bows and 80's punk mohawks.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

**Pariah Press**

Zealots and cultists both sound cool. I've been thinking of converting some flagellants into Nurgle cultists for a while now.

The Special slots were ALWAYS packed in MY army, so I don't think that'll change. I'll be very relieved if I can use my daemons in my Mortal army.

**Alpharius**

I *think* it 'helps' GW make money because a lot of us Chaos Generals had mixed forces, with maybe a little bit of everything?

NOW, you’ll no longer be able to field your mixed force, “forcing” you to buy a LOT more models to continue fielding the various Chaos armies.

GW obviously hopes you’ll buy more mortals, beasts AND daemons.

We’ll see how that works out.

**Pariah Press**

Well, it's working in my case. Of course, it just means that I won't be buying any Orks, so I suspect that it's a wash as far as their profits go.

**Alpharius**

Good point.

I'm probably NOT going to be expanding my Chaos forces too much (if I can help it!), and I'm definitely NOT expanding the Daemons that I've got into a full fledged army either.

**Savnock**

This sort of instability makes me less inclined to buy anything.

**bigchris1313**

Alpharius wrote:I *think* it 'helps' GW make money because a lot of us Chaos Generals had mixed forces, with maybe a little bit of everything?

NOW, you’ll no longer be able to field your mixed force, “forcing” you to buy a LOT more models to continue fielding the various Chaos armies.

GW obviously hopes you’ll buy more mortals, beasts AND daemons.

We’ll see how that works out.

I certainly thought about it. But how long can you keep splitting armies? The Cathayan Ogres vs. the Nipponese Ogres?

**DeathGod**

BDJV wrote:I've been following these rumors and I must say as a 24 year follower of the Forces of Chaos I am disappointed. It seems GW have finally gotten too lazy to balance WFB any longer.

Fantasy was ever balanced? I've been wargaming for 13 years, and all fantasy has EVER been was a goudafest with the newest-and-greatest army release battling it out with the oldest-and-brokenest for the title of who can make the most-broken-KILLMYHOBBY-uber-kill-machine army list.

**Pariah Press**

Savnock wrote:This sort of instability makes me less inclined to buy anything.

Doesn't bother me at all. I've been in this thing for fifteen years, on and off. I get what I like, and if I don't like the direction GW is going, I just refuse to go there with them. I played 2nd edition Epic up until very recently, and I still have a game of Man O' War every now and then. There are so many cool Chaos models to buy, but I really didn't need a 12,000 point army or whatever, so I can live with it. Harry the Hammer, then probably some daemons for me.

**Blackheart666**

Alpharius wrote:I *think* it 'helps' GW make money because a lot of us Chaos Generals had mixed forces, with maybe a little bit of everything?

NOW, you’ll no longer be able to field your mixed force, “forcing” you to buy a LOT more models to continue fielding the various Chaos armies.

GW obviously hopes you’ll buy more mortals, beasts AND daemons.

We’ll see how that works out.

All this "forced" me to do was put my attempt at getting back into Fantasy on hold for another 2 months or so (the local shop has been begging me to try Fantasy again.)

Since I can field an all mortal Chaos army anyway, I won't be buying new tropps regardless, and even if I did need to, I sure as hell wouldn't with them pulling this kind of stunt.

and to those people saying that they will buy new models precisely because of this.... well.. we need to start a new segment called "You might be a drooling fanboy."

ie:

"If GW tears your army into 3 seperate, poorly done pieces and you immediately run out and buy enough models for 3 new armies.... you MIGHT be a drooling fanboy."

**Pariah Press**

I prefer to think of myself as "GW's Target Customer."

**Blackheart666**

Pariah Press wrote:I prefer to think of myself as "GW's Target Customer."

so... that would make you one of 2 things...

1) a drooling fanboy.

2) a 12 year old that doens't know the difference between a plasma cannon and a chainsword.

so... I'm dying to know... which is it?

**H.B.M.C.**

I think the answer there is 'Yes'.

BYE

**yakface**

Blackheart666 wrote:
Pariah Press wrote:I prefer to think of myself as "GW's Target Customer."

so... that would make you one of 2 things...

1) a drooling fanboy.

2) a 12 year old that doens't know the difference between a plasma cannon and a chainsword.

so... I'm dying to know... which is it?

Games Workshop has to continue to sell models to existing gamers or they go out of business. At this point they can't produce new models without removing something from their range.

So would you prefer they stop making anything new for 40k and WHFB?
Would you prefer the completely jettison entire races to make new races?

Games Workshop isn't some burglar sneaking into our rooms at night stealing money from our pockets. If you like the game and you want it to continue to evolve (which means crazy things like splitting up armies to sell more miniatures) then yeah, you go out and buy more miniatures because you like to play the game that makes up your hobby.

That hobby includes forced changes to your existing armies as a way to keep the company in business.

It's a simple fact of modern miniature gaming and if it's something that really bothers you so much perhaps you're better off with a different hobby.

**Kotrin**

yakface wrote:Games Workshop has to continue to sell models to existing gamers or they go out of business. At this point they can't produce new models without removing something from their range.

Who can ever issue such a decree? It's not like GW could not move entire product lines to web sales only. It's not like GW warehouses had a final and finite size.

yakface wrote:
So would you prefer they stop making anything new for 40k and WHFB?
Would you prefer the completely jettison entire races to make new races?

Why should they stop anything? In the last few years, GW introduced Necron, Tau and Dark Eldar. And the world is still round.
If they start replacing their old miniatures with Mk II versions, they'll have work for years. This is a good sales incentive and it won't deprive players of anything.
If only I could purchase those new Eldar jetbikes made by Jes Goodwin...

yakface wrote:
Games Workshop isn't some burglar sneaking into our rooms at night stealing money from our pockets. If you like the game and you want it to continue to evolve (which means crazy things like splitting up armies to sell more miniatures) then yeah, you go out and buy more miniatures because you like to play the game that makes up your hobby.
That hobby includes forced changes to your existing armies as a way to keep the company in business.
It's a simple fact of modern miniature gaming and if it's something that really bothers you so much perhaps you're better off with a different hobby.

Reminds me why I chose for Warmachine. Same hobby, different mindset.

I still build armies for W40K, but always using the count as rule. Doing any different would be too risky on the long run.

**dogma**

Kotrin wrote:
yakface wrote:Games Workshop has to continue to sell models to existing gamers or they go out of business. At this point they can't produce new models without removing something from their range.

Who can ever issue such a decree? It's not like GW could not move entire product lines to web sales only. It's not like GW warehouses had a final and finite size.

Well, actually, they do. GW's warehouses can only ever be as large as their relative level of income allows. And while they could move entire product lines to web sales only, such a choice would mean the continued production of inventory which has very little chance of ever being liquidated.

Kotrin wrote:
yakface wrote:
So would you prefer they stop making anything new for 40k and WHFB?
Would you prefer the completely jettison entire races to make new races?

Why should they stop anything? In the last few years, GW introduced Necron, Tau and Dark Eldar. And the world is still round.
If they start replacing their old miniatures with Mk II versions, they'll have work for years. This is a good sales incentive and it won't deprive players of anything.
If only I could purchase those new Eldar jetbikes made by Jes Goodwin...

So what exactly are you talking about? A static rules system? Pure nonsense. If GW suddenly announced that they would not be updating the rules for 40k how many people do you think would continue to play the game?

**yakface**

Kotrin wrote:

Reminds me why I chose for Warmachine. Same hobby, different mindset.

I still build armies for W40K, but always using the count as rule. Doing any different would be too risky on the long run.

And while privateer press does handle community related issues much better IMHO, they haven't yet had to deal with the reality of a game that has reached capacity.

There will be a point when the Warmachine game will reach the point where they cannot expand anymore and then they will have to start to cut, re-shuffle or abandon parts of their game in order to continue to update stuff.

It is inevitable. If you don't think so then I fear you're going to be in for a rude awakening in several more years.

**Pariah Press**

Blackheart666 wrote:
Pariah Press wrote:I prefer to think of myself as "GW's Target Customer."

so... that would make you one of 2 things...

1) a drooling fanboy.

2) a 12 year old that doens't know the difference between a plasma cannon and a chainsword.

so... I'm dying to know... which is it?

If you're going to continue to be insulting, I will stop using smiley Ork emoticons in my replies to you, and it will serve you right.

I've played GW games for quite a few years now. I've seen some really great games come and go. I've had a huge amount of fun with them. I'm not blind to the faults of various aspects of some of the games and their business practices. However, I have confidence, based on past experience, that if I continue to support people like Rick Priestely, John Blanche, Jes Goodwin and Jervis Johnson, I will get a return on my investment in the form of good models, good art, and well-designed games. Like every artist, these men create some stinkers now and then, but, as their patron (in my own small way) I must remain loyal, with the expectation that something great will come along soon.

If that makes me a drooling fanboy or a 12 year old, then so be it!

**Chamleoneyes**

I dunno about these new rules.pretty much ruins any chance of me making the chaos army I've been drawing up lists for. Oh well, back to the wood elves.

**Boss Salvage**

@ Yakface - Both of your posts are good points, and they point out a reality of GW's "evil schemes" that I hadn't seen. Your comment re:Warmachine reaching capacity soon is a good one to keep in mind, for all those who love to hold PP up and keep GW down.

@ Cham - Nice sig, gooooo Tau / INQ

- Salvage

**efarrer**

yakface wrote:
That hobby includes forced changes to your existing armies as a way to keep the company in business.

It's a simple fact of modern miniature gaming and if it's something that really bothers you so much perhaps you're better off with a different hobby.

Wrong. Of all the attitudes perpetrated by GW this is the most offensive to my ears and eyes.

1. GW despite what it wishes to believe does not represent the "hobby"
2. Other minature games have managed to avoid this. Battletech is a great example of a game that has avoided this. Given that GW's business plan does not include longterm players at any rate that's a pretty poor arguement. No one in the two year an gone target audience will face that problem.

As an aside, it ccertainly does explain why people leave the "GW hobby" for the "minature wargaming hobby", as well as the true strength of FoW.

**efarrer**

Boss_Salvage wrote:@ Yakface - Both of your posts are good points, and they point out a reality of GW's "evil schemes" that I hadn't seen. Your comment re:Warmachine reaching capacity soon is a good one to keep in mind, for all those who love to hold PP up and keep GW down.

@ Cham - Nice sig, gooooo Tau / INQ

- Salvage

I know you want to feel emo or something, but keeping saying the people with problems with GW are trying to keep GW down is like white middle aged guys in Canada saying they are being kept down.

**Boss Salvage**

... or more like it's the cool thing to take a sh!t on GeeDub and fawn all over PP, without a look to any of the economics behind it. Not totally emo, I'm not exactly crying for GeeDub here just glad to see people avoiding the kneejerk-hate reflex.

And on Btech, when was the last new metal model released? I am curious, as all the stuff I bought recently was gotten off Iron Wind for some serious $$$ ... I'm pretty sure rules support has continued, but the game lives on through such a network of companies I don't think the comparison is 100% accurate against GW's warhammer systems.

- Salvage

**efarrer**

Boss_Salvage wrote:
And on Btech, when was the last new metal model released? I am curious, as all the stuff I bought recently was gotten off Iron Wind for some serious $$$ ... I'm pretty sure rules support has continued, but the game lives on through such a network of companies I don't think the comparison is 100% accurate against GW's warhammer systems.

- Salvage

1. Wargame with ongoing support, doesn't follow Gws planned obsolete model for sales.
2. I'm wasn't sure about new metals, but this link here indicates http://ironwindmetals.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=16&osCsid=bcb8edc215b8f1e9d2eb3fecaacdc8a4 some new stuff just came out.

As well, regarding your comment of not examining the economics, GW's stated target are the 1-2 year and outs. these are early teenage males with parent's income granting the money. You, and I and almost every other person on this site do not factor into GW's plans. That is one of the reason's GW gets dumped on. Releasing annual reports for several years running which explicitly state that the customer will stay because they don't mind paying more was a contributing factor, as it showed a lack of understanding of the economics of luxery goods. What I am glad it did was it shook some of the support free and gave room for smaller companies to eat into the market share.

**Boss Salvage**

efarrer wrote:What I am glad it did was it shook some of the support free and gave room for smaller companies to eat into the market share.

Agree with you there, more variety in the market is never bad, and has allowed for some great new stuff to hit the scene.

- Salvage