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The "lock" is analogous to when people complain that GW "destroyed" their army because they don't want to update by buying more stuff.

And yeah, I meant 1 model = 1 thing / person, rather than ranges & movement are pure 15mm. Oops.

WRT historical OOBs, I'll take another look at the Flames stuff - I've been out since early 1st edition. If this is better, maybe I'll revisit Flames.

JohnHwangDD wrote:But when they hit 12-odd factions, they'll be in the same spot as 40k and WFB, facing real problems as to how to expand the line and how to balance the various mechanics off against each other.

Most likely, the disillusionment with PP will be even higher, as their fans will feel more deeply betrayed by how PP became "just like GW!"

I've been playing Chaos for 12 years and I suspect it will be at least another 3 years before Chaos gets another update. I've been asking for the following items for 15 years:

1) Land Raider - got it, points are too high and split personality unit.
2) New Demon models - got them, but can't field them now
3) New Terminators - got them, however they are way, way too expensive
4) Left and right hand lightning claw sprue - still don't have it
5) Plasma gun, melta gun & lascannon in base box - still don't have it
6) Jump troops - got them, don't like the models
7) Better fast attack choices - still don't have it
8) New dreadnaught model - still don't have it

Of the 8 things I've given my customer feedback to the GW store managers about, 2 are basically useless in my army, 1 is cost prohibative, 1 has bad models and 4 still aren't in production. Also of the 8, only 2 items are new and thus require new rules, the others are just options to allow me to get more value for my dollar OR replace old models I don't particularly like.

GW, because of the standard army size, has also priced themselves our of allowing people to have multiple armies. I'd love to have another army or 3, but I can't stomach dropping $3K and the associated painting to buy said armies. I have 2 PP armies, one of which I don't play much, but because it was relatively cheap, I don't care so much.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The "lock" is analogous to when people complain that GW "destroyed" their army because they don't want to update by buying more stuff.

This is a pretty silly statement on the face of it. How is being able to make a historical or ahistorical army if you want to similar to having your army split apart ala WHFB Chaos? Did FOW suddenly say "Oh, yes, you can no longer use that Sherman with that gun because the artillary you have wasn't actually fielded at the same time. Whoops?" That seems to be what happened with the Chaos Mortals/Beastmen/Daemons split. "Gee, naughty humans and goat men broke up, and are not talking anymore. Can't field those models together again!"

Where is the lock? Where is anything that makes those two situations so similar it is worth comparing them favorably to each other?

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Slightly more objectively, though, nothing GW has done of late is worth much applause, as even their much-lauded "new plastics" are still of lackluster quality and on the upper end of the price bracket. The quality of their sculpts has improved slightly, but the quality of their rules has not.

Sorry, but the qualiy of their plastics is far above and beyond anything that anyone else is doing.

Hate them for their rules, be frustrated at their prices. But the models still rock.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The "lock" is analogous to when people complain that GW "destroyed" their army because they don't want to update by buying more stuff.

And yeah, I meant 1 model = 1 thing / person, rather than ranges & movement are pure 15mm. Oops.

WRT historical OOBs, I'll take another look at the Flames stuff - I've been out since early 1st edition. If this is better, maybe I'll revisit Flames.

You do realize that OOB are what a unit would be expected to look like when operating at 100% strength and within the command of its correct parent unit. What was actually fielded side by side in WW2 would have been radically different. I think your comments show a serious lack of understanding of real WW2 combat operations. Units were often thrown together to form combat commands or kampfgruppe without regard to actual TO&E or OOB of higher commands. As a point of fact even as late as 1944 German units were fielding tanks that would have been considered obsolete in 1943.

So I seriously doubt that you would find anything majorely ahistorical about a any Flames of War army that someone put together. Just because it doesn't follow a specific OOB doesn't mean it wasn't fielded in real life

Yeah, I'm aware that OOB is the "plan", and reality has a nasty habit of intervening.

But if the OOB for a force never included, say, Tigers, then it wouldn't be properly historical to include them in the force, despite Flames allowing this kind of mixture.

Techboss wrote:I've been playing Chaos for 12 years and I suspect it will be at least another 3 years before Chaos gets another update. I've been asking for the following items for 15 years:

1) Land Raider - got it, points are too high and split personality unit.
2) New Demon models - got them, but can't field them now
3) New Terminators - got them, however they are way, way too expensive
4) Left and right hand lightning claw sprue - still don't have it
5) Plasma gun, melta gun & lascannon in base box - still don't have it
6) Jump troops - got them, don't like the models
7) Better fast attack choices - still don't have it
8) New dreadnaught model - still don't have it

Let's take a more balanced look:
1. New model, Chaos-specific bitz, points cut by 10%.
2. New Daemon models - new sculpts for every edition. Now dirt cheap in plastic, and rules are perfectly fair for what they do in either list.
3. New Terminators - great sculpts, cheaper per-model cost than SM Termies, cheaper per-point cost than SM Termies. Very fair and very playable.
4. Good lord, you don't have any modeling skill? I've converted 4 sets of (now) OOP SM Termie Lighting Claws for PA use. Plus, there are (were) paired Claws on the Raptor Champion. Worst case, you would have ordered Loyalist Claws in the year prior to GW pulling the sprue from Bitz.
5. New CSM every edition. Now with a full range of Champion and Special Weapons along with the Heavy Bolter. Whining over the Lascannon is simply petty, given that CSM are fighters, not shooters.
6. Raptors were added, with 2 sets of sculpts, and made much cheaper in the most recent Codex. Plus, you can convert from Assault Marines.
7. Chaos is never going to get a Landspeeder. Raptors are cheap, flexible, unrestricted. I don't know what you're whining about here. I'm taking 3 units of Raptors in my CSM.
8. FW did Dreadnought conversions for each Legion. And you have the nice new plastic Dread to work from now, so conversions are easier. Plus, you now have the Defiler to work with as well.

So your complaint is that the new models aren't being sold on the cheap / don't have uber rules? :S

GW seems to have addressed each of your requests. If you're not happy, nobody can help you.

Techboss wrote:GW, because of the standard army size, has also priced themselves our of allowing people to have multiple armies. I'd love to have another army or 3, but I can't stomach dropping $3K

That's funny, because I own something like 20k worth of minis spread across 5 "armies" (8k Eldar, 4k SM, 4k IG, 3k CSM, 2k Inquisition).

If I had to put together a standard-size 1500-pt 5th Edition SM force from scratch, I would do it with 3 Battleforces ($72 USD ea) - that's a little over $200 USD total, and everything is playable. If I were to push points, and be a bit more careful I could probably get the price under $200 USD.

I don't know where you're getting $3k from. Chinese Yuan / Hong Kong Dollars? (~8:1) Mexican Pesos (10:1)? What?

I was a bit perterbed about the Daemon/Mortal split, but the more I think about it, the less I'm worrying. I can always just field two armies allied together against my opponent's one. All this really means is more units with more options for me (as if I didn't have enough already). And that rocks.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Whining over the Lascannon is simply petty, given that CSM are fighters, not shooters.

Come on. You really expect us to buy that? CSM aren't shooters?

My CSM have pretty brutal mid-range fire power, though yes, they do enjoy punching you in the face as well. The oblits on the other hand do love themselves some plasma cannon or lascannon whenever possible.

- Salvage

JohnHwangDD wrote:Let's take a more balanced look:
1. New model, Chaos-specific bitz, points cut by 10%.
2. New Daemon models - new sculpts for every edition. Now dirt cheap in plastic, and rules are perfectly fair for what they do in either list.
3. New Terminators - great sculpts, cheaper per-model cost than SM Termies, cheaper per-point cost than SM Termies. Very fair and very playable.
4. Good lord, you don't have any modeling skill? I've converted 4 sets of (now) OOP SM Termie Lighting Claws for PA use. Plus, there are (were) paired Claws on the Raptor Champion. Worst case, you would have ordered Loyalist Claws in the year prior to GW pulling the sprue from Bitz.
5. New CSM every edition. Now with a full range of Champion and Special Weapons along with the Heavy Bolter. Whining over the Lascannon is simply petty, given that CSM are fighters, not shooters.
6. Raptors were added, with 2 sets of sculpts, and made much cheaper in the most recent Codex. Plus, you can convert from Assault Marines.
7. Chaos is never going to get a Landspeeder. Raptors are cheap, flexible, unrestricted. I don't know what you're whining about here. I'm taking 3 units of Raptors in my CSM.
8. FW did Dreadnought conversions for each Legion. And you have the nice new plastic Dread to work from now, so conversions are easier. Plus, you now have the Defiler to work with as well.

1) New land raider costs 235 points as opposed to 258 points for what people take as standard (extra armor and smoke). The new land raider also cannot split fire as it previously could and the SM land raider can. This means you can only fire at 1 target, placing both the anti-troop and anti-tank weapons on the same target. It is still not worth the points and therefore not on my priority list to waste money on.
2) Generic demons are a waste of points no matter how you want to spin it.
3) The new terminators are nice models and have good rules, however the monetary cost is extremely high when you consider the below.
4) Please link the sites that sell any lightning claw bits for under the battlewagon bits price. I'd also love to be ablet to order those raptor claws you refer to, please link that as well. Point being my $10 terminator now costs about $19 with twin lightning claw option, that's codex option. My arguement still stands.
5) When you can't counter with reasonable logic, counter with fluff. I counter you fluff with Iron Warriors who are seige specialists.
6) Conversion drives cost up. I have the 1st scupts and like them relatively well. I don't like the new sculpts.
7) Chaos used to be able to take a demon choice in this slot, but that was removed. This leaves bikes or raptors, who have their uses, but why not have another option. I don't want a landspeeder, just something for this slot.
8) Forgeworld is not available through LGS and even if it were, it's still not a main stream product line I can walk into a store and pick up whenever I want. The dreadnaught model that was out 12 years ago is the same dread they have out now. Defiler is a completely different topic.

GW has:
- Provided good rules with crap models, raptors
- Provided good models with craptastic rules, land raider, demons
- Provided good models and good rules, but isn't priced correctly, CSM box, terminators
- Refused to fill army/model holes, dread, FA slot

I'm stating that GW can sell models without changing the rules if they put out an effective unit (rules) that looks good and doesn't cost a ton of money (cost prohibative). They currently put out models that are usually only 2 of the 3 or less.

JohnHwangDD wrote:That's funny, because I own something like 20k worth of minis spread across 5 "armies" (8k Eldar, 4k SM, 4k IG, 3k CSM, 2k Inquisition).

If I had to put together a standard-size 1500-pt 5th Edition SM force from scratch, I would do it with 3 Battleforces ($72 USD ea) - that's a little over $200 USD total, and everything is playable. If I were to push points, and be a bit more careful I could probably get the price under $200 USD.

I don't know where you're getting $3k from. Chinese Yuan / Hong Kong Dollars? (~8:1) Mexican Pesos (10:1)? What?

3 armies at $1000 per army = $3000.
You stated $20000 for 5 armies, so your spending $4000 per, granted some are larger than others. $1000 per army seems reasonable at the 2000 point level. Based on the points and dollar value you quoted for your forces, your average army cost is $952 per 1000 points. This means you spent 2x what I used in my figures.

also don't ever underestimate the ability of oblits to be a mid range unit... sure they might get caught in a combat but if you've played it right 3-4 turns of fire before they get caught in combat. even then they are very unlikeley to be wiped in the first turn of combat. if they do get caught in combat by anything without lots of power weapons they will often do pretty well....

onto the split... Now this was never much of an issue to me as an IW player in game terms and the new codex layouts are another kettle of fish. But as a LONG time chaos fan i am to irritated by the deamon/mortal split. I am also disatified by staffers going 'oh don't worry there will be power specific lists' or what ever to combine them... well fair enough but why in the name of the emperors gold guilded pagoda of joy could they not have done that in one book or first time round?

bigchris1313 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Whining over the Lascannon is simply petty, given that CSM are fighters, not shooters.

Come on. You really expect us to buy that? CSM aren't shooters?

Compared to SM, CSM are fighters. That is why SM have (shooty) Razorbacks vs. CSM have (fighty) B&BP&CCW.

Techboss wrote:
3) The new terminators are nice models and have good rules, however the monetary cost is extremely high when you consider the below.
4) Please link the sites that sell any lightning claw bits for under the battlewagon bits price. I'd also love to be ablet to order those raptor claws you refer to, please link that as well. Point being my $10 terminator now costs about $19 with twin lightning claw option, that's codex option. My arguement still stands.
5) When you can't counter with reasonable logic, counter with fluff. I counter you fluff with Iron Warriors who are seige specialists.

3. IOW, you're too damn cheap.

4. GW used to bitz these out. If you've been in "The GW Hobby" for as long as you claim, then you would know they were less than $2 per bit "back in the day". If you were too lazy to order in the decade before they were pulled, that's your fault.

5. Army-wise, Iron Warriors will have Obliterators for Elites, CSM squads with Lascannon in their Troops, NO Fast, and Vindicators / Defilers for their Heavies. No change is needed to the FOC or army list to create a Iron Warriors-themed army. For comparision, Night Lords will have Veterans for Elites, Special Weapon CSM squads for Troops, Raptors for Fast, and NO Heavy. Again, no change needed to the FOC or army list to preserve the theme and follow Fluff.

Techboss wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:That's funny, because I own something like 20k worth of minis spread across 5 "armies" (8k Eldar, 4k SM, 4k IG, 3k CSM, 2k Inquisition).

If I had to put together a standard-size 1500-pt 5th Edition SM force from scratch, I would do it with 3 Battleforces ($72 USD ea) - that's a little over $200 USD total, and everything is playable. If I were to push points, and be a bit more careful I could probably get the price under $200 USD.

I don't know where you're getting $3k from. Chinese Yuan / Hong Kong Dollars? (~8:1) Mexican Pesos (10:1)? What?

3 armies at $1000 per army = $3000.

You stated $20000 for 5 armies, so your spending $4000 per, granted some are larger than others. $1000 per army seems reasonable at the 2000 point level. Based on the points and dollar value you quoted for your forces, your average army cost is $952 per 1000 points. This means you spent 2x what I used in my figures.

As I showed above, a standard army is $200 USD. So 3 armies is $600 USD. Definitely less than $700 USD for all 3. So why you're claiming $1000 USD per army makes no sense whatsoever.

I stated I have approximately 20k *POINTS* spread across 5 armies, and then gave the points breakdown - it's rounding. That's why I wrote "20k", not "$20k USD". I have *lots* of armies, so I consider them to be affordable. Multiple armies are not out of one's financial reach. Of course, I don't pay stupidly inflated high prices like you would...

So looking at what I might have spent I bought the vast bulk of my armies starting in 2nd Edition, when prices were lower and sales were real. But I'll use the SM pricing as a fair proxy for what I've spent. 1500 pts for $200 USD converts to $2,667 USD for 20,000 pts. That's quite a chunk of change, but then keep in mind that I've been buying for this over a decade's time. So that's like $267 USD per year. Or less than $0.75 per day. To put this in perspective, I spend that much in TAX on my lunch.

Since you like to talk about 2000-pt armies, I have the equivalent of 10 armies. With a nominal spend of $2,667 USD, that's an average of $267 USD per army. Or about 1/4 of what you're saying you'd spend.

As I showed above, a standard army is $200 USD. So 3 armies is $600 USD. Definitely less than $700 USD for all 3. So why you're claiming $1000 USD per army makes no sense whatsoever.

I stated I have 20k *POINTS* for 5 armies. That's why I wrote "20k", not "$20k USD". I have *lots* of armies, so I consider them to be affordable. Multiple armies are not out of one's financial reach. Of course, I don't pay stupidly inflated high prices like you would...

So looking at what I might have spent I bought the vast bulk of my armies starting in 2nd Edition, when prices were lower and sales were real. But I'll use the SM pricing as a fair proxy for what I've spent. 1500 pts for $200 USD converts to $2,667 USD for 20,000 pts. That's quite a chunk of change, but then keep in mind that I've been buying for this over a decade's time. So that's like $267 USD per year. Or less than $0.75 per day. To put this in perspective, I spend that much in TAX on my lunch.

Since you like to talk about 2000-pt armies, I have the equivalent of 10 armies. With a nominal spend of $2,667 USD, that's an average of $267 USD per army. Or about 1/4 of what you're saying you'd spend.

Costs vary rather dramatically across different armies. And the $90 army box does not include (for most armies) anything like the optimal mix of units (though it's still a relatively cost-effective option for some).

For this past Adepticon team tournament, I know each of us paid ~$367 per 1000 pts of Tau (including 20% on GW-supplied stuff, but also including a fair amount of Forgeworld resin).

I think a decent ballpark for 2000 pts of usable options is probably in the $400-$500 range, depending on army type and desired configuration.

JohnHwangDD wrote:3. IOW, you're too damn cheap.

I think paying $50 for a plastic unit that I consider a high volume item is pretty stupid. So, yes, I am too damn cheap.

JohnHwangDD wrote:4. GW used to bitz these out. If you've been in "The GW Hobby" for as long as you claim, then you would know they were less than $2 per bit "back in the day". If you were too lazy to order in the decade before they were pulled, that's your fault.

Please notice the words in bold, they are all past tense. I did buy bit by the kg and thus did upgrade my previous sculpt of terminators to have to twin lightning claws. However now, I would like to buy some new terminators and not get raped on the bits that they don't provide in the core model. Again, notice the words in bold. GW fails to provide a product line and now a bits business to obtain bits to make a twin lightning claw terminator.

JohnHwangDD wrote:5. Army-wise, Iron Warriors will have Obliterators for Elites, CSM squads with Lascannon in their Troops, NO Fast, and Vindicators / Defilers for their Heavies. No change is needed to the FOC or army list to create a Iron Warriors-themed army. For comparision, Night Lords will have Veterans for Elites, Special Weapon CSM squads for Troops, Raptors for Fast, and NO Heavy. Again, no change needed to the FOC or army list to preserve the theme and follow Fluff.

Please show me where I can take a CSM army with Obliterators at elites and no fast attack choices. Please also show me this updated Night Lords rules where I can take extra FA slots. I have some news for you, you can't because the current, gutted, version of the CSM dex has Obliterators as heavies and all armies follow the stand FOC. My point still stands.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I stated I have approximately 20k *POINTS* spread across 5 armies, and then gave the points breakdown - it's rounding. That's why I wrote "20k", not "$20k USD". I have *lots* of armies, so I consider them to be affordable. Multiple armies are not out of one's financial reach. Of course, I don't pay stupidly inflated high prices like you would...

So looking at what I might have spent I bought the vast bulk of my armies starting in 2nd Edition, when prices were lower and sales were real. But I'll use the SM pricing as a fair proxy for what I've spent. 1500 pts for $200 USD converts to $2,667 USD for 20,000 pts. That's quite a chunk of change, but then keep in mind that I've been buying for this over a decade's time. So that's like $267 USD per year. Or less than $0.75 per day. To put this in perspective, I spend that much in TAX on my lunch.

Since you like to talk about 2000-pt armies, I have the equivalent of 10 armies. With a nominal spend of $2,667 USD, that's an average of $267 USD per army. Or about 1/4 of what you're saying you'd spend.

Fair enough, every army I've priced out comes to 600-700 minus any extra options, so I figure another 300 for some options.

I don't think John remembers what he is talking about anymore. Hell, even I know Oblits are HS now, and I don't even play Chaos.
He completely blew past the "can't get a CSM lascannon" and contradicted his own argument that CSMs are fighty and thus don't need lascannons. He then complained at you for his own lack of units behind "20k".

Obviously poor John as finally broken his mind after years of twisting it to accept his logic. I only hope they find a nice hospital for him where he can look out the window at birds and a little fountain.

I kind of like Raptors. In the last book.

Now they are just angry Spaze Marinez with a cool model and no fancy leadership. And no Chaplain, either.

Fail.

Chaos Fast Attack is crap. But everything else makes up for it.

That, and HQ partially makes up for it further. Flying Princes, Flying Tzentch demon weapon and the Slaneeshi HQ has beast movement.

Also, I will second the vote that CSM are "fighters over shooters". But Allied Marines don't get Lascannons in their box sets anyway. Replacing your dev squad missile launchers with lascannons gives you something to look forward to at Christmas-time.

This is off-topic, I believe.

werekin? i like the sound of that. we get werewolves, werebears, or weresomething? lol

Anaxagoras wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Slightly more objectively, though, nothing GW has done of late is worth much applause, as even their much-lauded "new plastics" are still of lackluster quality and on the upper end of the price bracket. The quality of their sculpts has improved slightly, but the quality of their rules has not.

Sorry, but the qualiy of their plastics is far above and beyond anything that anyone else is doing.

Hate them for their rules, be frustrated at their prices. But the models still rock.

What "anyone else is doing", eh? Dragon doesn't exist? Tamiya? Then there's Trumpeter, Tristar, Fine Molds, Bandai, Italeri, Airfix, Zvezda... GW makes very decent gaming models, which is a bit like saying you're very good at running for a one-legged man. Meanwhile, in the wider world of plastic models, their quality is simply decades behind what the top tier is doing.

And don't give me any of that "scale models aren't designed to be played with" tripe either. Sculpting fine detail, slide moulding, lack of mould lines, intelligent parts breakdowns and other hallmarks of good-quality modern plastic moulding would in no way compromise the end result's usability as a gaming piece. Bandai makes hordes of really nice Gundam and other giant mecha figures that not only withstand handling, but often feature articulating joints.

Games Workshop is the king of a very small pond, but the ocean's just around the corner.

Just a link to support the previous comments:

U.S. 10th Mountain Division Italy 1945 by Dragon

Note that these are 1/35 (~54mm) in scale, but gives you the idea as to what can be done.

AJC

Janthkin wrote:Costs vary rather dramatically across different armies. And the $90 army box does not include (for most armies) anything like the optimal mix of units (though it's still a relatively cost-effective option for some).

For this past Adepticon team tournament, I know each of us paid ~$367 per 1000 pts of Tau (including 20% on GW-supplied stuff, but also including a fair amount of Forgeworld resin).

I think a decent ballpark for 2000 pts of usable options is probably in the $400-$500 range, depending on army type and desired configuration.

OK, that's fair. Though the current Battalion Boxes are pretty darn good, particularly at 20% (or more) off retail. I think that 2 of them would give a very decent starting core for any 5th Edition-style army.

Techboss wrote:3.I think paying $50 for a plastic unit that I consider a high volume item is pretty stupid. So, yes, I am too damn cheap.

JohnHwangDD wrote:4. If you were too lazy to order in the decade before they were pulled, that's your fault.

Please notice the words in bold, they are all past tense. I did buy bit by the kg and thus did upgrade my previous sculpt of terminators to have to twin lightning claws. However now, I would like to buy some new terminators and not get raped on the bits that they don't provide in the core model. Again, notice the words in bold. GW fails to provide a product line and now a bits business to obtain bits to make a twin lightning claw terminator.

JohnHwangDD wrote:5. Army-wise, Iron Warriors will have Obliterators for Elites, CSM squads with Lascannon in their Troops, NO Fast, and Vindicators / Defilers for their Heavies. No change is needed to the FOC or army list to create a Iron Warriors-themed army. For comparision, Night Lords will have Veterans for Elites, Special Weapon CSM squads for Troops, Raptors for Fast, and NO Heavy. Again, no change needed to the FOC or army list to preserve the theme and follow Fluff.

Please show me where I can take a CSM army with Obliterators at elites and no fast attack choices. Please also show me this updated Night Lords rules where I can take extra FA slots. I have some news for you, you can't because the current, gutted, version of the CSM dex has Obliterators as heavies and all armies follow the stand FOC. My point still stands.

3. In light of the recent Daemonette & Bloodletter price cuts, along with the CSM Termies, I would agree the $50 SM Termies are overpriced. But $50 for 5 SM Termies was the same as the metal price, without the crispness and options of plastic. At $35, they would be fairly priced.

4. I don't see the problem with going to BW Bitz or Bitkingdom for these if that's all that you need. Mountain out of a molehill.

5. OK, I forgot that Oblits moved to HS. But that doesn't stop you from taking a CSM army without Fast choices. Nor is there any basis for needing extra Fast / Heavy slots. But given that Raptors are now up to 20 models, you can have pretty much as large of a flock as you can imagine.

As far as I'm concerned, GW has given you what you requested. If you can't deal with how GW gives you what you've requested, that's your problem, not mine or GW's. The idea that GW should cut their prices to suit your whims is pretty strange. Similarly, the idea that GW "owes" you Bitz service is also rather odd. For example, WotC has never done singles, even though that is probably the single most requested thing one can imagine.

Techboss wrote:Fair enough, every army I've priced out comes to 600-700 minus any extra options, so I figure another 300 for some options.

I have some difficulty figuring out how or why you're spending so much on your armies, but if that's what you're doing, so be it.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Anaxagoras wrote:Sorry, but the qualiy of their plastics is far above and beyond anything that anyone else is doing.

What "anyone else is doing", eh? Dragon doesn't exist? Tamiya? Then there's Trumpeter, Tristar, Fine Molds, Bandai, Italeri, Airfix, Zvezda... GW makes very decent gaming models, which is a bit like saying you're very good at running for a one-legged man. Meanwhile, in the wider world of plastic models, their quality is simply decades behind what the top tier is doing.

Bandai makes hordes of really nice Gundam and other giant mecha figures that not only withstand handling, but often feature articulating joints.

Games Workshop is the king of a very small pond, but the ocean's just around the corner.

GW makes models designed specifically for gaming, so they are necessarily heavier and clunkier to withstand rough handling. Kind of an apples and oranges thing, because the scale models I'm familiar with tend to have scale details and thicknesses what would snap under ham-fisted gaming conditions.

That said, Dragon is leading the way in scale models, followed closely by Tamiya and then Trumpeter. Bandai models are posable, but not really toys - still too much fragility in what they do. GW's gotten better, but still well behind the leaders.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:What "anyone else is doing", eh? Dragon doesn't exist? Tamiya? Then there's Trumpeter, Tristar, Fine Molds, Bandai, Italeri, Airfix, Zvezda... GW makes very decent gaming models, which is a bit like saying you're very good at running for a one-legged man. Meanwhile, in the wider world of plastic models, their quality is simply decades behind what the top tier is doing.

Bandai makes hordes of really nice Gundam and other giant mecha figures that not only withstand handling, but often feature articulating joints.

Games Workshop is the king of a very small pond, but the ocean's just around the corner.

GW makes models designed specifically for gaming, so they are necessarily heavier and clunkier to withstand rough handling. Kind of an apples and oranges thing, because the scale models I'm familiar with tend to have scale details and thicknesses what would snap under ham-fisted gaming conditions.

That said, Dragon is leading the way in scale models, followed closely by Tamiya and then Trumpeter. Bandai models are posable, but not really toys - still too much fragility in what they do. GW's gotten better, but still well behind the leaders.

I'm sorry, you appear to have excised a portion of my message just so you can tell me something that's obvious.

So it's a problem that I basically agreed with you???

No, I was just wondering why you trimmed that particular paragraph off the quote, since it dealt with what you were writing about in terms of the quality difference between GW and the rest of the world.

In plastic moulding, GW could go a lot finer without compromising on the gamer-proofness of their products. Many rivets on the Baneblade, for example, are not moulded at a right angle to the panels they're on, meaning they're not symmetrical. This is most obvious in the large hex-bolts in the turret. This sort of thing could be fixed by moulding the turret shell using multiple-part moulds, breaking it into smaller subassemblies, and so on, all of which would leave the part just as durable as before.

I'm not saying GW should do this, or that it'd be practical to either use more complex moulds or increasng parts count like this, but they could.

Oh, Ok.

Yeah, I have a Baneblade and see many of the same flaws that you do, such as rivets being molded at right-angles to the die, rather than the angled panel.

A lot of this is GW trying to create detail for the sake of having detail. Horror vaculi in relief, if you will.

But looking at the turret, the single part *is* stronger and more durable. Any joint is inherently less strong than a solid part. And each extra part requires that much more space in the die for runners & such.

So yeah, I basically agree with you, again.