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OK, we all know the new Daemons have the odds stacked against them - I cannot see myself going into a game with them without crossed fingers. So, how does a Daemon player tilt the odds back in their direction, even if the odds still don't favor them?

Firstly I think we should leave the 5th Edition speculation to a minimum. I don't know about anyone else but I plan on getting this army and playing with them more than once before 5th launches. I think it is good and proper to stick to formulating plans for the current rules, then work on wrapping our minds around 5th when 5th comes.

So, this is a DSing army. It goes without saying that Icons are going to help in dealing with the underlying issues, but only if your Icons come in when you want (1st wave is ideal, so hope you roll good there too ) and land where you want. They're vital IMO.

What about unit size? I may toy with small unit sizes to keep an errant DS from hurting as much, and to potentially waste a portion of what I predict to be massive volumes of rapid fire and template weaponry. Torrent of Fire rules might hurt here however, because this could force an Icon-bearer to save or die essentially, right? Also, are Daemons Fearless?

3 Soul Grinders - a good idea? I hear the DP is quite pricey, but what if you give a Soul Grinder both cannon upgrades? I'm seriously considering taking three of these guys just to increase the chances of one of them surviving more than a turn to get the job done that they so desperately need to do. They should be fun and if they survivie the DS they'll draw a lot of attention. That one game where they all come in on the same turn and all DS next the same Icon will make it all worth it.

It's late and my eyes are crossing trying to figure out how to make this army shine...

Sure, it sounds easy enough to build a customised anti-Daemon army list, but such an army list wouldn't be a great all-comers list.

I think a Daemon army will actually do fairly well in a tournament situation, as a deep-striking horde of high leadership models with invulnerable saves is not your average opponent.

I look forward to playing Daemons, and I have already tossed around several formations, or whatever you want to call them, in my head. (This is about 1500, haven't worked it out totally yet.)

The first is the slaanesh/nurgle combo. First wave (if you get the roll): 2 units of 7-10 plaguebearers with Icon. 1 unit of 1-3 Fiends of Slaanesh. DP with wings A herald of slaanesh on a steed. Second wave: 2 units of 5 mounted daemonettes. A herald of slaanesh on a steed. A DP with wings.

Idea is to drop the plaguebearers in the center or where-ever you are going to want Icons. Herald and Fiends DS behind LOS blocking terrain as does DP with wings. Next turn, abuse possible 24" charge range of Fiends/Herald and 18" charge range of DP with wings. When units become available, either DS then near the Icons if they are still alive or DS them behind LOS and again, abuse 24/18 assault ranges. Big problem with this set up is anything mechanized would probably slap it around as the DP's are the only things that really have a shot at taking out armor.

The other is the shooty Tz version. 3-5 5 horror units with BoC upgrade, Heralds on Discs, Flamers, and Soulgrinders. Lot of shooty goodness, maybe even a call for the named Lord of change as rerollable 4+ inv saves might be worthwhile. If points are available, throw in daemonettes as an assault unit or just stack up on more horrors and flamers.

Another idea that would be more for fun than anything else was the Dzilla list of 3 DP's and 2 GD, either Bloodthirsters or Lords of Change. Probably not the most effective, but hilarious to see opponents face if you manage to cram in 4 cheap units (nurglings!) to act as the second wave and have your first turn DS be 2 bloodthristers and 3 DP's magically pop onto the table.

I like the soulgrinder, but I think it is too expensive for what it does, but the sad part it does have the most potent anti-tank in the codex. I think I'd rather have a DP and maybe some Screamers of Tz.

I've been thinking about it a good bit, and I think that they may be a decent army (I've done a lot of thinking about nurgle, in particular).

I suspect that the successful take-all-comers lists will have large squads of the troops choices in them, and will then either have fast assaulters (cavalry/beast/jetbike/jump pack) _or_ lots of shooting (DP/GD/Soul Grinder).

I would expect the durable player who wants to make sure that he has at least two icons on the table to take two squads of ~14 plaguebearers with an icon, so that each half of the army has at least one icon.

My current plan (which is going to wait until at least fall, the wife and I have decided that we won't buy any more models until we have at least 4 of our 9 or 10 armies completely painted) is going to be nurgle centric, with a unit of bloodletters, a unit of daemonettes, and a unit of pleasureseekers (because we have those models). I'm really looking forward to this codex, because it is so fundamentally different than all of the other current armies. I don't think it's going to be top-tier, because of the randomness inherent in the deep striking process, but I think that it'll be competitive.

My thoughts on demons is this: Take big units. Large unit sizes give you the best chance of surviving a round of shooting and maintaining effectiveness. This is especialy true in units like daemonettes and bloodletters, who are succeptable to shooting the turn they DS. Overall I'd say leave the DP at home, or if you do run them make them a cheap fire magnet. Wings are overpriced for what they're going to do for you. Soulgrinders are good but will also attract all the AT fire on the board so I'd simply give them the Phlegm upgrade and shoot that battlecannon on DS.

You want alot of basic demons.

Sadly, they're pricey.

So you won't have two hundred demons to put down.

Usually when you run the horde of demons, you have 4 tzeentch heralds and they are your only real AT.

If you end up facing mech, zilla, nightshield, or a handful of other lists...you will lose.

The way I was figuring it was to go with 4 units of daemonettes stacked full, a greater daemon and 2 heralds, and then some fast filler in small units. The idea was to drop a huge pile of girls on the enemy right off the bat, then use the faster stuff to support the initial charge or grab onto enemies that got away from the first wave's melee. Alternately, if the half you didn't want dropped first, the fast stuff could hide, then come in to support what comes down on subsequent turns.

Perhaps not the best idea, but from the position of playing against it, having 40 or so daemonettes and a greater daemon land ~12" away from me scares the bejesus outta me, even if I get a free round of shooting.

What are people's opinions on bloodcrushers?

2 T5 3+/5++ immune to instant death wounds with 18 inch assault threat seem pretty good.

A few of these units, backed up by some very resilient troops with teleport homers seem like they could be a nice core for an army.

All demons are immune to instant death.

Bloodcrushers are scary, but can be shot dead with mass fire and medium fire. It's a problem for all the Khorne demons. In 5th edition, they're easy KPs.

that's going to be the problem with the new daemon codex. it's got lots of medium and heavy things that are not terribly hard to kill and are worth lots of points. it's like having a fire magnet, but one that can't take a tonn of punnishment

Stelek wrote:Bloodcrushers are scary, but can be shot dead with mass fire and medium fire. It's a problem for all the Khorne demons. In 5th edition, they're easy KPs.

It takes on average 27 bolter shots (at bs4), to remove one bloodcrusher, or 216 shots to down a squad of 8. I don't really consider that to be easy KP.

If you go to look at heavier weapons, plasma guns take approx 4 shots to down one crusher, while a las or missile takes approx 3 shots.

In the scenario of going against las plas squads, if you deepstrike within the 12 to 18 inch range, you can force them to only get 2 special weapon shots per squad (one heavy and plas, or double tap plas). They're most likely going to move towards you and rapid fire, for extra bolter shots. Assuming 6 man las plas squads, it takes more than 5 squads to wipe out 8 of the bloodcrushers.

The number of squads increases significantly if they aren't rapid firing, but I think it's pretty safe to say that they aren't easy KP.

I'd like to try out an army with 3 DP, 3 squads of crushers, 4 Khorne Heralds on crushers, and 2 squads of plaguebearers. This gives you room for 6 icons, a ridiculous amount of T5 wounds, ridiculous ability to steamroll people in hth, and the ability to pop a few vehicles (4 str 7 shots on the heralds, and more AT from the DP). This is geared up more with 4th ed in mind (only 2 troops choices), but you can always trade a couple units here and there to get more plaguebearers, without sacrificing too much.

The problem with your post is that you've using statistics to measure unit effectiveness in warhammer. You'll find that if you actually play those units, the rolling has a funny way of ignoring the statistical results. That's theoryhammer vs reality.

So, Dakkalad, I have S10 AP1 Assault 30 weapons in the hands of BS5 Marines that cost 4 points each. Your army is equipped with S3 AP- Assault 1 weapons in the hands of BS2 Guardsmen that cost 30 points each. Mathhammer says I win, but according to you, it could go either way, because reality ignores statistics. Is that correct?

People who distrust mathhammer just aren't understanding it correctly.

I think the army will be one of the top tournament armies out their when it's all said and done.

I don't buy Stelek's argument that you can effectively shoot the army away before it threatens you in a serious way.

Think about it, try facing off against a Nid-zilla army that has no guns and 4 times the CC effectiveness. Then have half that army show up in your face on turn one. Good luck keeping even one of those units out of your shooting lines, you will only have a turn of shooting to do so. And unless you are Stelek and somehow have 18 lascannons in your army, that isn't going to happen.

I have been testing chaos lists that have multiple defilers and DP's and most armies have trouble putting them down when they have an opportunity to do so all game. Now you are saying I have a list where I can drop these huge MC's pretty much wherever I want them for a guaranteed turn 2 charge? Yes please.

I see the basic strategy of this armie is to make the two DS groups almost the same, with a Greater Deamon and either a Soulgrinder or DP in each one. Drop them in a place around area terrain that is is difficult for the army to get good shots at them, and even if you loose one of the monstrous creatures, at least your other one is making combat. You need only a few units to make combat to seriously disrupt a gun line enough for the rest of your army to come in.

The only army I see giving this list trouble is a 200+ Ork horde because the protracted combats are not in the Deamons favor. At least my Slaneesh ones have hit and run. But in my mind, it makes the Soul Grinder so much more useful because he can put down reliable templates.

I agree with Mahu. 5th edition will make the army even better as 3 Soulgrinders can drop into 4+ cover trees and shoot all game.

Thats generally my thought Mahu. I think we really won't see its full effectiveness until sometime after V5 comes out.

@Traskel: Wow a squad of 8 bloodcrushers, huh. First, doubt I'll ever see that many. Even the local khorne nut only has 4 of them. Are you aware of their points cost? And how utterly useless they are against non-infantry?

Easy KP indeed. You field 8, I laugh at you. Yes, it's a tough unit. On paper. Go ahead and buy it, build it, paint it, then play it. I highly suggest two at first, as eight is a bit much. See how you like them first. When they disappoint you, don't get mad about it. Just remember I saved you from buying eight.

@ dakkalad: You assume the soulgrinders need to drop into cover. They don't. You assume dropping into cover when deep striking is even a good idea. It isn't. You don't want to take terrain tests on what little shooty element you do have.

@Mahu: People have trouble dropping AV12 vehicles? People have trouble dropping T5 3+ saves? Who are you playing? If people can beat Tri-falcon AND Godzilla with the same list, they can beat your defilers and DP without batting an eye.

You really need to play the army in 5th edition to grasp it's fundamental flaw. You make alot of sweeping generalizations that are, in fact, not possible with the demon army.

The more MC you take, the less anti-vehicle shooting you have. Is that fine against a guard army? Yes. Is it fine against any skimmer force? No, you lose every time against those because you do not get re-rolls to hit. You cannot shoot them. Most of those armies will move away from you AND kill you, and your MC will get shot dead.

The more anti-vehicle you take (meaning heralds and soulgrinders), the fewer MC you have. This weakens you against people who don't HAVE vehicles, and it's a fatal weakness. Soulgrinders are near impossible to stop if you just glance them occasionally, but it doesn't take much to knock out their weapons. Then what are they? Oh right, dreadnoughts. How good are those again?

Remember, this is NOT a Tyranid army. You don't get excellent shooting AND excellent CC off of any of your MC units. You get excellent CC and so-so shooting off your MC. You get decent shooting and crap CC off your shooting units. Sadly, you don't get 8 and you can't mix roles like the Tyranids can.

If you think this will be a top tournament army, you must mean when a bunch of new players face it. Like every other new army out there. Top tournament list a year after release? Nids, yes. Eldar, yes. Demons, NO.

Oh, and that guaranteed turn 2 charge doesn't exist for most of the demon army. Anyway you put your faith in the T5 models that don't have FNP. Only plague marines dropping down would give people a real headache. Everything else, can be dealt with.

If it makes you feel any better, this army generally does kick the crap out of GK armies.

So at least it isn't the very bottom.

Stelek wrote:Wow a squad of 8 bloodcrushers, huh. First, doubt I'll ever see that many. Even the local khorne nut only has 4 of them. Are you aware of their points cost? And how utterly useless they are against non-infantry?

The $176 pricetag on that unit is a big deterrance too ...

- Salvage

@Mahu: People have trouble dropping AV12 vehicles? People have trouble dropping T5 3+ saves? Who are you playing? If people can beat Tri-falcon AND Godzilla with the same list, they can beat your defilers and DP without batting an eye.

You miss my argument. It's all about timing. Sure over the course of the game any army can handle Defilers/Soul Grinders and Monstrous Creatures, assuming your opponent considers that the best tactic for them is to sit out in the open and not do anything. What I am saying is that most lists have problems taking out 3+ of those types of units in one turn. A single shooting phase. And in fifth, it will be even harder to handle the Soul Grinder because Glancing hits will do next to nothing to it.

You really need to play the army in 5th edition to grasp it's fundamental flaw. You make alot of sweeping generalizations that are, in fact, not possible with the demon army.

First off, the first post in this thread is that we are not discussing 5th yet. Its about the tactics of this list now. And besides, it is really hard to judge an unreleased codex against an unreleased set off rules. Sure, we may have a pretty good idea what fifth is about, but until it hits the selves we don't know for sure.

The more MC you take, the less anti-vehicle shooting you have. Is that fine against a guard army? Yes. Is it fine against any skimmer force? No, you lose every time against those because you do not get re-rolls to hit. You cannot shoot them. Most of those armies will move away from you AND kill you, and your MC will get shot dead.

Which is another reason I think Soul Grinders will be the preferred choice for their shooting ability. But most Skimmer heavy lists I have seen still have some sort of ground element. And it will be impossible to hide any infantry without the Deamons DPing near them.

The more anti-vehicle you take (meaning heralds and soulgrinders), the fewer MC you have. This weakens you against people who don't HAVE vehicles, and it's a fatal weakness. Soulgrinders are near impossible to stop if you just glance them occasionally, but it doesn't take much to knock out their weapons. Then what are they? Oh right, dreadnoughts. How good are those again?

Last time I checked the Soul Grinder was an AV13 dreadnought with 5 attacks on the charge and fleet. Not a very fair comparison. Besides, they have the versatility you need. They can either be anti-tank or engage Infantry in assaults. I don't know about you but most Infantry squads have trouble taking down an AV13 walker. Heck, a Soul Grinder can tie up Ork Boyz all day in CC. Allowing you to face the horde on your terms.

Remember, this is NOT a Tyranid army. You don't get excellent shooting AND excellent CC off of any of your MC units. You get excellent CC and so-so shooting off your MC. You get decent shooting and crap CC off your shooting units. Sadly, you don't get 8 and you can't mix roles like the Tyranids can.

I think it is a fair trade off, Tyranids get excellent shooting and weak close combat of their MCs (minus the Tyrants of course). Whereas Deamons have weak shooting but are far more better in CC and deepstrike where they need to be. Besides, my only comparison between them and Deamons was an opponents ability to shoot them.

If you think this will be a top tournament army, you must mean when a bunch of new players face it. Like every other new army out there. Top tournament list a year after release? Nids, yes. Eldar, yes. Demons, NO.

You can only make that claim after a year of play. I would wager that they will be, you say they won't. Since it is not fact yet we would have to see in a year.

Oh, and that guaranteed turn 2 charge doesn't exist for most of the demon army. Anyway you put your faith in the T5 models that don't have FNP. Only plague marines dropping down would give people a real headache. Everything else, can be dealt with.

If you aren't an idiot it does. With the amount of flying and calvary models deepstriking, you would be hard pressed to avoid things you don't kill. Heck, even the Keeper has a poor man's lash to move the enemy closer.

Ok so you said alot and I don't have the proper time to answer everything, so I'll leave it at this. Yes, it's long winded but it's less effort, I type fast.

I am using the current 5th edition rules under playtest, with the current (release) Demon Codex.

I could give a crap about how it does in 4th edition. NOTHING I am saying has anything to do with 4th edition.
Is this unclear in any way? I am not discussing 4th edition, I am not pretending to, I do not care to, it's moot.

That out of the way:

My Eldar army is unbeaten versus this army. I've never even sweated it. Know why? The demons cannot kill my seer council. Period. Can it walk through the whole army? No. Can I take my 500 point unit and kill 2-3 times its amount of damage? Yes. Do I run through soulgrinders like they didn't even exist? Yes. Are there other armies that do this? Yes. Some in CC, some via shooting. Tau rail rifles annihilate them like they weren't even there. Try a soulgrinder against a standard heavy tau choice, the rail rifle suits. Yeah, you can't hurt the suits with your blast weapon. You can kill a drone with your single shot weapon, if you hit. Then they annihilate you. And the other soulgrinder. Piranhas do the same thing. So do railheads. I mean, come on. How badass do you really believe AV13 is without a cover save in 5th? As soon as you get penetrated, better hope they roll low.
Oh it's a AP1 weapon because you moved in range of all the meltaguns? Gee, I don't know...you're dead?

My Tau are a mix of foot and mech, and I know I can drop 5 DC MC because I have.

Does that mean I can't sweat the list? Of course it doesn't. Every game has it's ups and downs, your opponent might do the unexpected, dice might go bad. Now, if you are a vet player--you know you have a comfort level against certain armies, and against some armies you never really get that comfort level unless you have the army built to kill that army. Do my balanced lists do well against Nidzilla? Tri-falcon Harlies? Why yes, they do. Does that mean I'm not worried? Nope, I am. I play better as a result, and I win. Am I ever really worried about a marine army? No. They don't have any real extremes in the game system to deal with.

You believe I should worry about a demon army deep striking because it can assault me on turn 2. And it can shoot me alot on turn 2.

Tyranids already do this. They do BOTH, better. If they go first, you get one turn of shooting.

How come it's a wash for you to say the demons will be all-powerful when the Tyranids aren't? What happens to your uber force when the rest of your army doesn't start arriving until turn 3? Oh, right, you lose because 50% of an army versus 100% of an army in two turns in 40k is pretty much a loss. I've played this stupid list on both sides with 5 different peoples demons to choose from, and using the 5th edition rules. It's a gimmick army, beginning to end. It cannot win against bike eldar, mech eldar of any kind, mech tau, and even ground mech (like IG or smurfs) give it a hell of time. Rending nerf, anyone? Right...you don't autopen and auto-destroy vehicles anymore with weaksauce rending units.

It isn't a good army. It won't ever be a good army.

Gimmicks never are.

PS As soon as lash works on vehicles, call me. Till it does, this list is trash. 100% prime grade cut.

Boss_Salvage wrote:

Stelek wrote:Wow a squad of 8 bloodcrushers, huh. First, doubt I'll ever see that many. Even the local khorne nut only has 4 of them. Are you aware of their points cost? And how utterly useless they are against non-infantry?

The $176 pricetag on that unit is a big deterrance too ...

- Salvage

He made his for like 60$ plus a bit of conversion work.

I doubt even he'd bring the scratch to buy the actual model.

Doesn't look 176$ good, and it certainly isn't 176$ good on the tabletop.

Oh and I know the OP said don't talk 5th.

5th was on schedule for release a month after the demon codex hit.

Wanna really waste your time talking tactics when the new rules come out a month later?

Who knows, might be December before we see the rules.

Hard to understand how one can have FAQ's done without the main rules (being printed in China as we speak).

Call me crazy.

If we move to talking about 5th, then I think daemons have a bit more AT than most think, although yes, not a huge amount. Skimmers still need to be hit on a 6 when moving, but Fiends have str 5, if I remember right, and vehicles without WS are always hit in the rear, so you're pretty much going against av 10 all the time against skimmers. Fiends, Bloodcrushers, even Bloodletters, if they can get the charge off, are capable of throwing enough attacks out to damage a skimmer. Would I rather have a rail gun or lootas? You're damn skippy. But it is something.

Also, if you get first turn Soulgrinder or two on the DS, you can try to position yourself to be in range and LOS of skimmers for the first turn hit with ordinance or tongue. Again, dependent on going first and all that, but still, with the exception of basilisks, (to my knowledge), nobody else has a chance of pounding hiding skimmers on the first turn.

On to 4th.

Yes, I think Soulgrinders are necessary for the shooty element of the army. You need the pie plate against hordes and the tongue against monoliths/LRs.

My biggest fear isn't mech eldar/tau, although they are up there next to spiders and wombats, it is horde ork. A 30 strong ork unit will decimate pretty much anything, bloodletters don't throw out enough attacks, FNP doesn't work against PKs, daemonettes' str 3 and t 3 means death, and horrors will probably die to tau in CC, so you don't have a basic troop choice to slow them down. A soulgrinder has a good shot, but if charged, you have to deal with 5 str 9 attacks. So my limited math skills equals : 3.33 hits, 1.665 glance/pen, 1.109 pen, .55 death on pen. So essentially, by my math (which is probably wrong), you are always going to get pen-d (which sounds better than always going to get penetrated), by a charging Ork nob with a PK. And more than half the time it'll flat out kill you. If you charge them, it goes down a hell of a lot, 4 str 8 attacks, 2.67 hits, .88 glance/pen, .44 pen, .22 dead. So clearly, soulgrinders need to charge orks, but then when is that not the case for a CC army against a CC army?

Continuing on with Orks: Horrors and Flamers are necessary to beat Orks. You need Horrors to whittle them down. (10 horrors, 30 shots, 15 hit, 7.5 wound/kill or 5 dead if they have a KFF with them) So it takes, purely for horrors, 60 horrors to kill 30 orks. (since they usually rock the KFF). Flamers have a hell of a lot better chance with the template attack. But, really, you need to focus multiple units to kill 1 30 man squad of Orks.

Bloodletters are going to be the best at killing them in CC as a Soulgrinder is going to last the longest but not necessarily kill the most. The problem is Bloodletters are going to need a lot of support to win the day. Here's an example:
10 horrors kill 5 orks using previous math. 25 left.
Round 1: 10 BL's charge, so that's 30 attacks. 20 hit, 13.33 wounded/dead. 12ish left. Still fearless. For the sake of argument, all orks can hit back. 4 PK attacks, 2 hit, 1.67 wound, .5555 save, 1.114 BL's dead, 33 regular attacks, 16.5 hit, 5.49 wound, 1.83 save, 3.66 BL's dead.

Round Two: So it becomes 12ish against 5ish, next turn, just rounding to even, 5 BLs attack, 6.67 hit, 3.335 dead, 9ish left, not fearless. PK remains the same, 1.114 BL's dead, 24 reg attacks back, 12 hit, 4 wound, 2.67 BL dead, so thats 4ish down. 1 BL left. A very very very slight advantage to orks to do more wounds and win combat, BL fearless, outnumbered many times over, fail the 3 or so saves has to take, dead. Orks win. So by the numbers, 10 horrors shooting and 10 BL's charging won't wipe a 30 strong boys unit. Of course, my math isn't super precise, so wiggle room depending on dice rolls, better or worse depending. But either way...

That obviously disturbs me because the standard 30 boy set up is 250 points, while 10 horrors and 10 BL's are combined 330 points. Even if you include the 85ish points for the KFF Mek, he is still transferring that 5+ save to any squad within 6 ", which should be most of the sloggers.

So, I am afraid of footslogging orks, which may be popular in many tournament settings. To fight them you have to build your list to include Soulgrinders for the template, flamers, and horrors. This takes up points and spots for the gooey goodness of Fiends/Bloodcrushes/Mounted Daemonettes, daemonettes, Bloodletters, and plaguebearers, which are all very necessary for taking on other lists.

But hell, it'll be a fun game either way.

I am using the current 5th edition rules under playtest, with the current (release) Demon Codex.

I could give a crap about how it does in 4th edition. NOTHING I am saying has anything to do with 4th edition.
Is this unclear in any way? I am not discussing 4th edition, I am not pretending to, I do not care to, it's moot.

The current edition of the game is moot? OK, if you say so. My problem with arguing fifth edition is that it is impossible to say with 100% certainty that the rules you are operating under are the absolute final ruleset. My previous statement is an absolute statement, maybe the rules have a strong probability, even in the 99% range of being the final rules, but you still can't say for certain. Not until you have the official book in your official hands.

My Eldar army is unbeaten versus this army. I've never even sweated it. Know why? The demons cannot kill my seer council. Period. Can it walk through the whole army? No. Can I take my 500 point unit and kill 2-3 times its amount of damage? Yes. Do I run through soulgrinders like they didn't even exist? Yes. Are there other armies that do this? Yes. Some in CC, some via shooting. Tau rail rifles annihilate them like they weren't even there. Try a soulgrinder against a standard heavy tau choice, the rail rifle suits. Yeah, you can't hurt the suits with your blast weapon. You can kill a drone with your single shot weapon, if you hit. Then they annihilate you. And the other soulgrinder. Piranhas do the same thing. So do railheads. I mean, come on. How badass do you really believe AV13 is without a cover save in 5th? As soon as you get penetrated, better hope they roll low.
Oh it's a AP1 weapon because you moved in range of all the meltaguns? Gee, I don't know...you're dead?

Like I keep saying, my argument is never that the Soul Grinder is super survivable. You need to actually read my posts. My point was that they are survivable enough to accomplish a certain goal. Either Draw fire or get into a favorable CC. In my Chaos army with 2 Defilers, I don't take the Defilers because of their survivability, I take them to overload the targets an opponent would want to shoot at. Because once I can get a decent unit or two into combat, things turn in my direction.

Sure it doesn't work against certain armies, but every army has a rock to their scissors. But it will work with any army with a gun line. Conversely the role of the Soul Grinder does change when you face of against certain lists. Against Eldar, it is better to hold up in cover and force the Eldar player to engage you because Eldar are faster then Deamons and aggressive play will lead to a quick separation of the army.

Bottom line, any tactic I say isn't the "de facto" answer to every situation. You can't possibly think that every list has a specific order of events that dictates a winning outcome, and if you do then what are your opponents like?

My Tau are a mix of foot and mech, and I know I can drop 5 DC MC because I have.

First off, what is your list like. Secondly, if you have any foot elements, you are open to getting Deamons in your face. What are broadsides going to do against a Soul Grinder when they have a Blood Thirster show up right next to them and they have a turn to kill it.

Like I said, the key to this list, like any army is choosing your targets and taking advantage of cover. Deamons streagth is that they are very reactionary and can place units that are strong enough in certain situations where they need to be. If I have protracted assault in quarter A then I know where my Blood Thirster goes.

Does that mean I can't sweat the list? Of course it doesn't. Every game has it's ups and downs, your opponent might do the unexpected, dice might go bad. Now, if you are a vet player--you know you have a comfort level against certain armies, and against some armies you never really get that comfort level unless you have the army built to kill that army. Do my balanced lists do well against Nidzilla? Tri-falcon Harlies? Why yes, they do. Does that mean I'm not worried? Nope, I am. I play better as a result, and I win. Am I ever really worried about a marine army? No. They don't have any real extremes in the game system to deal with.

Your overconfidence is your weakness.

Your arguments always stem from how great a player you are but there is very little actual proof to this fact. Regardless, you are very unspecific in your arguments. What was your last game against the Deamons like? What where the lists like? What strategies where employed and how did that favor/backfire on the particular player.

You believe I should worry about a demon army deep striking because it can assault me on turn 2. And it can shoot me alot on turn 2.

Tyranids already do this. They do BOTH, better. If they go first, you get one turn of shooting.

I already admitted that I acknowledge the lack of shooting in the list. It shows how misinformed you arguement is if you don't understand the points I was trying to make. As a long time Chaos Player, I know and understand how quickly an army can fold on itself is a few heavy hitters reach gunlines, no matter the army. Now you are telling me there is a list that I can take two Blood Thirsters in? And place them wherever I want, after you have deployed? Meaning I can easily tell where the weak spot of an army is and place the appropriate tools to attack it where I want it.

My opinion is that Deamons will be one of the top competitive armies available, they have problems with Horde Orks and Skimmer Heavy lists, but the other top lists have their fair share of similar troubles as well. But in the right hands, the Deamons will be very hard to beat.

Stelek in your gaming has there been attempted massed MC's literally in the face and amongst the enemy units? There has been discussion of herding up the MCs as a shield wall for your other demons to form behind but has there been any playtesting of MC';s or heralds thrown hurley burley in openings in the enemy lines? I did this very effectively in V3.5 with oblits. I'm wondering if the chaos of dropping units right in there would be worth the casualties. Mayhaps dropping in cheap nurglings for a similar use. Lots of casualties but relatively cheap and have to be dealt with or they will lock up units.

edit: help me out on the V% rending via cc.
Is this correct? 1) Need 6 to hit. 2) need 6 for armor penetration. 3) if get bonus then +d3 to damage 4) CC always works against the rear armor?

So a demonette (s4) against a Leman moving 12" would need a 6 to hit, then a 6 on the armor penetration. This would provide a minimum penetration. Am I incorrect in this? Thats actually better than current rules if correct. Further, iff correct, how is this calculus different for a skimmer?

Ok Mahu, you got me. I did skim a little too quickly. Busy busy day, sorry about that.

Demons don't need cover. Demons do not ever want to get anything but 'fire through' cover saves. Land in cover? That's bad news for deep strikers.

You talk about landing where you want, but I guess I gotta wonder--have you really thought about it?

First turn, you have NO icons on the board. You scatter 66% of the time. Deep striking is NOT forgiving for anyone. Any part of your unit is illegal to place, BAM roll on the mishap table. If you play it safe and deploy 13" away from my closest unit...sure you can't scatter onto me. You can scatter onto yourself. You can scatter into terrain. You can block your own LOS. Soulgrinders are absolutely HUGE. They are easily mishap'd if not placed first. You aren't really free to place your units willy nilly, and if you put your demons down in front of any kind of template/blast/ordnance weapon; you are going to lose alot. It's not like you can spread them out, ya know. Sure, plague bearers are great against bolters. Battlecannons still own them if they hit, which in 5th they are more likely to do. So do plasma cannons, and even flamers because you get so many possible hits. It overloads the units ability to withstand the damage.

You talk about heavy hitters, and yes, a couple demon princes or two strong demon squads could sweep my old Tau list away. Of course, that was when I was playing 1500 points vs 2000 and winning in 3 turns. I simply added 500 points to the list and I made it much more capable (especially in 5th, where EVERYONE attacks). It can't hold demons, but I can tarpit the crap out of two units. That's usually enough to let me shoot the crap out of the demon army, and get distance on it. I'll post it seperately, although I think I did already so I'll see if I can find it and post it. EDIT: Can't find it, so this is my tau list: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/210546.page

Anyway the same methods that stop other deep strike armies stop this one.

You can fly 12", and are 18" from me. I move back.
You can fly 12", and are 12" from me. I move back, and place a vehicle at 11-13" from you.

You do the same thing for fast assault units. You are 18" away and can fleet and assault 12"? Fine, I'll put a 7" long vehicle sideways 7-8" from you, right in your path. Even with a 6" move, if my other units move back...you can only assault my sacrificial vehicle.

In both cases, you cannot assault. You can move forward, but if I've pushed your assault out a turn--why shoot you? I'll shoot the stuff I cannot prevent assaulting, and cripple it or kill it. Then you'll drop more stuff (maybe) and I'll get to it when I get to it.

Being boxed up in a corner, well, with a small Eldar army (about 35 models, and 3 vehicles) I can cover an entire table quarter and prevent you from deep striking ANYWHERE in it. So you have to deep strike, at a minimum, 25" from the nearest board edge. If I have a large horde army, like say, Orks...I put the lootas in the corner; and the boyz in front; and shoot everything I can lay my hands on. I'll gladly charge you with my boyz, and so should any ork player. Might not win, but you'll hurt demons. Plague bearers you won't hurt much, but they don't gain a whole lot against most enemies with their poisoned attacks...which most players view as a strength, but against the common army (marines) it's a waste.

Anyway, I'm not saying it's not possible to do well with the army.

I just do not think you can do well against what is, from what I've discovered, is about half the tournament armies out there.

So, you should pretty much always play 2 or 3 games in a GT against an army that should beat yours.

Is that a good army, or a gimmick army?

Honestly?

jfrazell wrote:Stelek in your gaming has there been attempted massed MC's literally in the face and amongst the enemy units? There has been discussion of herding up the MCs as a shield wall for your other demons to form behind but has there been any playtesting of MC';s or heralds thrown hurley burley in openings in the enemy lines? I did this very effectively in V3.5 with oblits. I'm wondering if the chaos of dropping units right in there would be worth the casualties. Mayhaps dropping in cheap nurglings for a similar use. Lots of casualties but relatively cheap and have to be dealt with or they will lock up units.

Yes. We've done the 'best case' for the 5 MC drop. What I mean is, dropping an inch away, in a line, with none of the 66% chance to scatter. Odds of this happening are, well, quite low. It's a stupid thing to do, since risking 200 point units to a mishap (that means dead or parked in a corner 60" from the battle) isn't wise. Especially when these units are critical to you having a chance to win.

Anyway, we tried it against DE, Eldar, Tyranids, (my) Chaos, Smurfs x2, and Orks.

5 of 5 MC died, every game. Shoot everything dead that you can, then assault and take down anything left.

Would you put 3 dakkafexes down in front of an enemy army, that are missing 1T and have 1 shot and a 5+ invulnerable; and expect them to live?

I mean really, that's what you guys expect to be 'top tourney'?

Really? Honestly?

jfrazell wrote:edit: help me out on the V% rending via cc.
Is this correct? 1) Need 6 to hit. 2) need 6 for armor penetration. 3) if get bonus then +d3 to damage 4) CC always works against the rear armor?

Yes.
Yes?
Depends, which playtest? v3 yes, v4 I don't think so.
No.

Ramming against dreads does this, but that's about it.

There was a playtest a while ago that did this, but it was changed.

The intention is to nerf rending, not make it more powerful.

jfrazell wrote:So a demonette (s4) against a Leman moving 12" would need a 6 to hit, then a 6 on the armor penetration. This would provide a minimum penetration. Am I incorrect in this? Thats actually better than current rules if correct. Further, if correct, how is this calculus different for a skimmer?

Leman Russes from the front are immune to most rending attacks. You need to be D6+D3+S5 to even glance. Which is still pretty much immune, since you are -2 on glancing.

So you need to roll 6 to hit, 6 on armor pen, 5/6 on bonus armor pen, and S5 base to glance a Russ from the front.

Can you hurt skimmers? Yes. How are you catching Eldar skimmers again is the question.

I routinely sacrifice my pirahnas to the demon bomb, and shoot them apart from my side of the piranhas. Kill all the jumpers, stonewall the demons with piranhas.

Grants immunity from turn 1 assaults, and you've won. It's really quite boring.

Thats what I was asking. The draft version of the rules I had seen denoted attacking the rear armor. Hence the question.

The issue of dropping in. No the idea is not for them to survive but draw fire and create havoc. Again it was a fun trick with oblits and was wondering if something similar had been tried.

Edit:

I mean really, that's what you guys expect to be 'top tourney'?

No need to be rude. It was a simple simple question asking if you had playtested that option and its effectiveness. I couldn't give a flying if its a top tiered list. I'm looking at different options as I am interested in the list. Seriously if you're going to smart off to anyone who's taking you at your word and actually asking you a good faith question -as you state you've played draft variants already- then we don't have anything to discuss further. Jeez about a 9 on the tension scale.

I wasn't being rude. I was just asking if this really seems like a top tourney list to anyone who's played it.

Not smarting off either. Sorry if it seemed that way.

Let's all be friends!

jfrazell wrote:The issue of dropping in. No the idea is not for them to survive but draw fire and create havoc. Again it was a fun trick with oblits and was wondering if something similar had been tried.

In this list, you can run drop 5 MC and drop 4 swarms and have 2 troop + 3 FA + 3 Elite..for a total of 17 units. It's a weak army, as everything is very thin (and the swarms will nail your comp AND your army since they don't score) and that's bad for demons in many missions. With them having fearless now, it's a serious weakness as anyone that can pile in the bodies on your smaller units can clear you out with fearless wounds if they win combat. Most Slaanesh units don't survive their Hit & Run, because EVERYONE fights (this is a huge change from 4th edition) and they're only guardsmen after all. T3, 5+ save...so what if you get a save against power weapons? The regular hits gut your squad, just like now, only you can't come in on one corner and annihilate everyone in the kill zone. The other guys fight back and suddenly your 6 demons are down to 2. (Very similar to what happens to Harlies)

The oblits could draw fire and create havoc because there was another 1700 points of army on the table, possibly less but only because there were demons standing by still...

In this list, those 5 MC are 1000 points worth of guys. And there's nothing else on the table. If you drop them further back, everyone will pull back from their deployment edge (12") and rapid fire anything they can. That usually means if you drop 6-18 nurgling bases, they eat everything. Is that really worth your guaranteed drop?

Maybe this will help.

Think of the DW. They can drop 4 or 5 terminator squads down. Are DW all powerful? Are they even feared? Or is it more like...you're going through the motions, killing terminator after terminator, waiting for the game to end and seeing if you can kill all of them before time runs out? If your experience is like mine, and DW are more annoying than powerful--that's how demons feel.