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Stelek wrote:Well, ya said alot blackmoor but the only thing I noticed worth replying to was this:

"Did you know that they only thing in a Necron army that can kill a Soulgrinder is the Heavy Destroyer?"

Really?

Really?

Really?

Really.

Insead of just saying really 3 times, why don't you use math to prove me wrong.

Stelek wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:I would also like point out that using Necrons to show that the Demon codex will have trouble beating them is rather stupid.

Every codex including Orks has trouble beating Necrons, so you are not proving the Demon weaknesses, but rather proving that Necrons are hard to beat.

I've lost one game to Necrons.

My first.

None since.

Not at any GT, RTT, friendly or unfriendly game, or learning games where I take 500 point hits to my army list.

Hard to beat?

Really?

Really?

Really?

You are a legend in you own mind.

I forgot you never lose.

So it does not matter if your opponent uses the Demon Codex or any other, you can't be beat.

You don't seem to grasp the niceties of the 5th edition rules.

Soulgrinder is immune to Gauss weapons? Neat trick.

Immune to scarab swarms with glancing hits? Another neat trick.

I'm glad I'm a legend in my own mind. That's one place more than you.

Sadly, I've repeated I've had my ass handed to me when playing the demons so what this 'never lose' crap is all about is beyond me. Oh right, you don't read what I say, you just toss out the quickest insults you can and go on your merry way.

Like it's a new thing with you.

guys take a breather.

To the topic. Lets assume for argument that this is not a Tier One list in whatever finalized form V5 is (it will then join the ranks of the IG in that regard). What are the more efficious combinations seen at this point? I've looked over an realized I have the makings of a force with two counts as defilers, 45 BL's, three/four juggernaut wannabees, Tzeentch herald, Khorne herald (and ideas for converting skulltaker) a winged greater demon; a winged defacto demon prince, 12 nurgling types (just looking for an excuse to make a bunch more-nothing says loving like columns of meat spewing out arms and eyeballs), and potentially 40 demonettes. So I am wondering what combos would work and what cost and $ efficient combos I can convert up.

I think that Blackmoor and Stelek just need to play a game vs. each other. Solve it the Mauleed and that Tau guy way and Xtapl vs. Augustus.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I remember those games. Now I feel old. Thanks Ozy

Stelek wrote:You don't seem to grasp the niceties of the 5th edition rules.

Soulgrinder is immune to Gauss weapons? Neat trick.

Immune to scarab swarms with glancing hits? Another neat trick.

Look at what you said below…

Stelek wrote:I'm confused, who thinks auto glance is worth a spit?

I auto glance! Woo I get to stun you, shake you, or if I roll really good I get to take off a weapon.

YAY!

So is glancing good vs. Soulgrinder, but everything else it is bad? Were you wrong then, or are you wrong now?

I'm glad I'm a legend in my own mind. That's one place more than you.

Sadly, I've repeated I've had my ass handed to me when playing the demons so what this 'never lose' crap is all about is beyond me. Oh right, you don't read what I say, you just toss out the quickest insults you can and go on your merry way.

Like it's a new thing with you.

All this humility from a guy who says…

Stelek wrote: i.e. I'd consider them 'subpar' but my generalship is second to none. So far anyway. Hopefully my rabble rousing after a decade of silence will get me decent competition at the LVGT. Guess we'll see.

So if I win with the Demon Codex does that mean that I am better general than you if I can win with an army you can't?

blackmoor wrote:So if I win with the Demon Codex does that mean that I am better general than you if I can win with an army you can't?

Only if you're playing me. You can beat all the schnubbs in the world, it's pretty meaningless to me.

Now on to more of the show!

"TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT IN A LAME ATTEMPT TO MAKE STELEK LOOK BAD"

blackmoor wrote:

Stelek wrote:You don't seem to grasp the niceties of the 5th edition rules.

Soulgrinder is immune to Gauss weapons? Neat trick.

Immune to scarab swarms with glancing hits? Another neat trick.

Flamer glancing is what I was referring to. Stop being an asshat already.

Flamer glancing is both avoidable and ineffective against MONOLITHS.

It is also ineffective against soulgrinder, because...

blackmoor wrote:
Look at what you said below…

Stelek wrote:I'm confused, who thinks auto glance is worth a spit?

I auto glance! Woo I get to stun you, shake you, or if I roll really good I get to take off a weapon.

YAY!

So is glancing good vs. Soulgrinder, but everything else it is bad? Were you wrong then, or are you wrong now?

You're quoting out of context game is a fun one, but I really hate making you look stupid. Can you stop now?

I was right then, and I'm right now.

NECRON glancing hits rip soulgrinders apart.

Flamer hits do not.

Why? It's all in the volume.

EVERY Necron can glance a soulgrinder.

Even if you dumped all of your flamers on the soulgrinder, would you actually destroy it?

Let's see, there's a CCW or two, a handful of ranged weapons...Necrons can put that so many shots into it, that once you take off it's main gun and immobilize it....you can ignore it and wait until you've beaten the rest of the demon army. Usually one Necron unit can do this. Sometimes two.

They can do it at 24"-36". You gonna fleet forward and pwn?

What happens when the scarabs intercept you? 10 of them with disruption fields? 40 attacks?

Who are you kidding?

I love how the title of the thread is "More Daemons, Less Flaming", and the moment Stelek opens his mouth, a massive fireball spews from it, and reduces everything to ashes.

I read through this topic, hoping that maybe there would be intellegent talk about the topic of the upcoming daemon dex, but instead I get Stelek tries to counter every post with something equivalent to:

My army X laughs in your face, my army Y is unstoppable, my army Z... blah blah blah. This unit is to slow. This unit is worthless. You DS, you're just f'ed. If you field this unit, I laugh at you... etc.

Dude, consider for one, tiny, fraction of a second, that not everyone is a hardcore tourny player, and your input has little meaning to them. I don't care if your army can slaughter a daemon army. For all probability, I won't play you, and even if I did, I'd give you the game before the game started to avoid having to talk to you, considering the negativity that oozes out of your every orifice.

If you are half as good as you claim you are, you should take it as a challenge upon yourself to play daemon army in a competitive environment. Otherwise, go back and hide behind you're power-gaming armies from fromage-ville, and refrain from setting every daemon thread on fire. Some of us want to play this army for its uniqueness, not for its ability to win tournaments.

Stelek wrote:Flamer glancing is both avoidable and ineffective against MONOLITHS.

Soulgrinders and Monoliths are the same. Since they are immune to stun and shaken, and the 5th edition table for glancing hits does not have a destroyed result, they are both very hard to kill by glancing.

Stelek wrote:NECRON glancing hits rip soulgrinders apart.

Flamer hits do not.

Why? It's all in the volume.

EVERY Necron can glance a soulgrinder.

Even if you dumped all of your flamers on the soulgrinder, would you actually destroy it?

Let's see, there's a CCW or two, a handful of ranged weapons...Necrons can put that many shots into it.

They can do it at 24"-36". You gonna fleet forward and pwn?

What happens when the scarabs intercept you? 10 of them with disruption fields? 40 attacks?

Who are you kidding?

Are you back to using your Necron army with every unit in it so you can prove your point?

Scarabs are not that good in tournament lists because Tau and Eldar will kill them as an after thought.

Lets run the numbers shall we? At 24”+ they only have Destroyers that can shoot that far. 5 Destroyers shooting average 1.6 Glancing hits. You call that a volume? And not only that, but you are wasting shots that should be shooting at Demons not Soulgrinders.

10 Immortals at 24” max average 2 Glances.

Where is the huge volume of glancing hits?

You should run the numbers once in a while instead of making broad statements.


But I am done arguing about a codex that has not been released yet, using a rule set that no one is sure about. It is idiocy to make any pronouncements this early in any codex’s life.

blackmoor wrote:Soulgrinders and Monoliths are the same. Since they are immune to stun and shaken, and the 5th edition table for glancing hits does not have a destroyed result, they are both very hard to kill by glancing.

There is NO glancing hits table.

There IS a destroyed result for glancing hits on the table.

Yay, this was fun.

Back to maybe what the OP wanted to discuss...

Again, I state that the codex doesn't seem to have a really powerhouse combo, but I don't think it will be scrapping the scraps of the bottom of the barrel.

I think it is very easy to design an army list to take down Daemons, just as it is easy to design an army list to take down any one single army. I think that, like Orks, Daemons may provide a nice wild card situation in the tourney scene. Sure they are easier to deal with if you are planning on them, but if you are built more towards anti-MEQ/MC/skimmer, a daemon list might catch you. This may hopefully force players to bring more all-comers list rather than more traditional set ups.

I think because of this, a daemon army can excel in the tourney scene. But hey, I could be dead wrong. We'll see how it does after the GT season and what not.

Ok I have had a first hand look at the codex. One thing has occured to me.

In 5th ed models can run after a DS. Run happens in the shooting phase. This means no plate bait and daemons will be able to move towrads enemies and or into cover and adjust for bad scatter to a certian extent.

Unless you roll low...and given how you form up, battlecannon shots still hurt you, even plasma can hit more than you might think. Multiple plasmas also hit max # of guys, instead of diminishing returns. Your point is valid, I'm just pointing out the downside.

Templates are handled differently now, both flamer and the circles.

Demons don't really need cover. Everyone comes with it.

4+ still beats 5+ in most cases.

Even a roll of 2 will allow you to spread out to near max coherancy unless you take a squad of 20.

I'm not saying it put daemons right, but it is an important rule that they will need. I plan to see if my local group will allow me to play with run till the new rules are out.

If you are going to land near cover to get a cover save, you risk deviating into it and taking the dangerous terrain tests, which you want to avoid.

Max coherency from a demon squad often means you still get a bunch under the template.

You seem to forget that non-fleet troops cannot run in range of the enemy, so if you land too close you'll end up eating the pie plates anyway. That's most of the army.

One thing I'd like to point out is that if you've moved yourself behind some cover to take advantage of the save you'll get for being shot at through it, then you either need to move through or around said terrain next turn if assault is your goal. At this point you turn it into a game of luck when it did not have to be so.

9breaker wrote:

My army X laughs in your face, my army Y is unstoppable, my army Z... blah blah blah. This unit is to slow. This unit is worthless. You DS, you're just f'ed. If you field this unit, I laugh at you... etc.

This is the best summary of Stelek's posts I have ever seen! I will quote this every time I see Stelek make an obnoxious post (wait, that'll take too long....).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozy insults me.

If only Ozy (A) would grow up, or (B) realize I don't care.

Odds of either happening...

These priceless moments brought to you by Toys-R-Us, and their employee of the week...Ozymandias!

Grats on your 10% discount coupon.

Well that was bloody weird.

Yep. Start over (and my apologies to the original poster).