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Gotcha.Although not the greatest have you tested a similar drop with nurglings into ranks? They are substantially cheaper (we're talking 2 units or so at most) and the opponent has to take them out before they get into tarpit range.

Sucks about rending.

Perhaps the leaked pdf I've seen is wrong, god knows I take it all with some salt and pepper, but it does state that units outside of 2" from a model in base to base with an enemy are locked ,but do not get to fight, they can only be taken as casualties. So if that's true, your opponent can remove casualties outside of the fighting and still get full attacks back *if you don't do enough damage to wipe out all of the models outside of the engaged* (which makes removing hidden PKs/Fists hard as hell.)

Again, very very possible my source is wrong, I didn't know there were different versions out but I'm not doubting.

All I want to know is what kind of shooting does it take to down 5 MC's in a single turn.

Now I am not advocating that plopping Deamonic MCs in front of a gun line is a valid tactic. (My personal theory is to use cover and concentrate on a weak flank).

Let's say I go the Slaneesh route and have 2 KoS and 3 Soul Grinders as my first wave.

A single KoS needs either:

Bolter Shots = 1 Shot, .66 (66% to hit), 0.1056 (16% to wound), 0.0528 (50% to fail a Save) = 18.9 Bolter Shots per Wound

Plasma Shots = 1 Shot, .66 (66% to hit), 0.4356 (66% to wound), 0.2178 (50% failed save) = 4.5 Plasma Shots Per Wound

Lascannon Shots = 1 Shot, .66 (66% to hit), 0.5478 (83% to wound), 0.2739 (50% failed save) = 3.65 Lascannon Shots Per Wound

Dakkafex = 8 Shots, 6 Hits (50% to hit = 4, 50% on re-rolls = 2), 3 Wound (50% to wound), 1.5 Failed Saves (50%) = 3 Dakkafexes to kill 1 Greater Deamon

So in a typical gun line it would take 14.6 Lascannons, 18 Plasmagun Shots, or 75.6 Bolter shots on average to kill 1! Greater Deamon.

Now to be fair, a combination of the above weapons lessens the load on the three categories. But as you can see, you could mathematically kill all those Monstrous Creatures in a shooting phase, but that is only based on a bunch of assumptions. Like that the whole army has range and line of sight to every MC. Shoot, just putting one MC in front of the other protects it enough to keep it alive as it hits your lines.

Like I said, please provided at least some evidence of your claim, like "We playtested 2 Blood Thirsters, and 3 Deamon Princes out in the open in front of army consisting of X, Y, and Z. X took out this, Y took out that, etc."

Even then, I doubt that stacking a bunch of MC's in front of a gun line is an effective test. That's like testing Harlequins effectiveness by having them walk through the middle of an open battlefield against a SM gunline. Not a very fair test of the tactics employed with that unit.

I am more then willing to admit that I am wrong if you are willing to argue something other then "I am the greatest HURRR!" Then at least their would be a fair amount of credibility in your points.

lemurking23 wrote:Perhaps my leaked pdf is wrong, god knows I take it all with some salt and pepper, but it does state that units outside of 2" from a model in base to base with an enemy are locked ,but do not get to fight, they can only be taken as casualties. So if that's true, your opponent can remove casualties outside of the fighting and still get full attacks back *if you don't do enough damage to wipe out all of the models outside of the engaged* (which makes removing hidden PKs/Fists hard as hell.)

Again, very very possible my source is wrong, I didn't know there were different versions out but I'm not doubting.

Yes, that's what I meant by everyone attacks. Sorry, it isn't quite everyone attacks--it's everyone that can attack, probably will because you just remove dead guys from the rear rank. I mean, anywhere.

Sorry for any confusion there.

jfrazell wrote:Gotcha.Although not the greatest have you tested a similar drop with nurglings into ranks? They are substantially cheaper (we're talking 2 units or so at most) and the opponent has to take them out before they get into tarpit range.

Sucks about rending.

The most we've tested is 24 nurgling bases.

Alot of armies have problems taking that many out, but you can make one huge dent.

There are some armies that don't have that problem.

That said, Battlecannons and Railguns (ok, any blast/ordnance/flamer template with S6 or higher) just destroy them totally.

Double wounds? Yes please. Arranged in pie plate formation? Yes please.

Ok I just caused 8 wounds. Save. Save 3? Ok, that's 10 wounds (3 bases). Now let's resolve my 3 oblits over here, firing 3 plasma blasts. Hmmm...yes, odds are I hit. How many do I hit? 5? x3? So I wound 13 or 14? Ok save. Save 5? Ok that's 20 wounds. It's silly.

My Chaos army (CSM) with the 2 EC units, the 3 TS units, and the 3 oblit units killed 20 bases. I was 'tied up' for precisely one assault phase by the 2 bases my demon princes couldn't get to. Stomp stomp.

Mahu wrote:All I want to know is what kind of shooting does it take to down 5 MC's in a single turn.

Hmmm. 5 Piranhas (2 FG, 3 burst), 5 markerlights (4 seekers), 2 railguns, 2 SMS pods, 10 crisis suits with plasma/missile fire, and 9 drones with S6 shots. Followed by piranha drone fire and FW pulse rifle fire, then by kroot/hound charges. Just an example. Remember, no 2+ save so torrents of fire do indeed kill you.

Mahu wrote:Now I am not advocating that plopping Deamonic MCs in front of a gun line is a valid tactic. (My personal theory is to use cover and concentrate on a weak flank).

I agree plopping them down in front of a gunline is bad, but is landing far away really better? People can still shoot you, so you get attritted by heavy weapons fire for a turn instead of eating all the rapid fire weapons. That works, to a degree. It all depends on your opponents mobility and firepower he has left if he moves.

When's the last time you lost to a drop pod army? Year or more? It has a learning curve. Like Necrons. Once learned, you don't forget.

Mahu wrote:Let's say I go the Slaneesh route and have 2 KoS and 3 Soul Grinders as my first wave.

A single KoS needs either:

Bolter Shots = 1 Shot, .66 (66% to hit), 0.1056 (16% to wound), 0.0528 (50% to fail a Save) = 18.9 Bolter Shots per Wound

Plasma Shots = 1 Shot, .66 (66% to hit), 0.4356 (66% to wound), 0.2178 (50% failed save) = 4.5 Plasma Shots Per Wound

Lascannon Shots = 1 Shot, .66 (66% to hit), 0.5478 (83% to wound), 0.2739 (50% failed save) = 3.65 Lascannon Shots Per Wound

Dakkafex = 8 Shots, 6 Hits (50% to hit = 4, 50% on re-rolls = 2), 3 Wound (50% to wound), 1.5 Failed Saves (50%) = 3 Dakkafexes to kill 1 Greater Deamon

So all of the S7 or less shots go into your greater demons. There are only 2. They really aren't as hard to down as you seem to think they are.

All of the S8 and higher weapons go into the soul grinders. Every time the other guy gets a penetrating hit,

Mahu wrote:So in a typical gun line it would take 14.6 Lascannons, 18 Plasmagun Shots, or 75.6 Bolter shots on average to kill 1! Greater Deamon.

Come on man. This is pure mathhammer. You should know from experience that just one las/plas squad can crump a greater demon. I've seen it lots of times. Is it unlikely? Yes. Does it happen anyway? Yes. Let me ask you a simple question--when was the last time you fired 38 bolter shots and 9 plasmagun shots at a greater demon, and didn't kill it? Be serious now. You know as well as I do that that's a ton of firepower, and the GD dies to it. 9 plasmaguns to take down one DC MC? Come on. It's always the mass accumulation of fire that kills you. If you are down to 1 wound, do you think that GD is going to live long in any CC? You know it won't, so is 'as good as dead' just as good?

Mahu wrote:Now to be fair, a combination of the above weapons lessens the load on the three categories. But as you can see, you could mathematically kill all those Monstrous Creatures in a shooting phase, but that is only based on a bunch of assumptions. Like that the whole army has range and line of sight to every MC. Shoot, just putting one MC in front of the other protects it enough to keep it alive as it hits your lines.

In 5th, everyone does have LOS to your MC.

In 5th, cover means nothing for demons with a 4+ invul save, unless it's a building in the way.

Good luck landing your MC like ducks in a row to block LOS with the deep strike rules.
If I can see ANY part of your model, odds are I can shoot you.
If I've got mobility, you can't block me from shooting you.
If I kill the first one with bolters and plasma weapons, can I then punk the next one with heavy weapons? Yes...

Mahu wrote:Like I said, please provided at least some evidence of your claim, like "We playtested 2 Blood Thirsters, and 3 Deamon Princes out in the open in front of army consisting of X, Y, and Z. X took out this, Y took out that, etc."

I think I did this at the top.

Mahu wrote:Even then, I doubt that stacking a bunch of MC's in front of a gun line is an effective test. That's like testing Harlequins effectiveness by having them walk through the middle of an open battlefield against a SM gunline. Not a very fair test of the tactics employed with that unit.

When we playtested, for about 6 games in a row, with different armies, we let them place their MC anywhere they wanted. No deviation, just place it and it's there.

We tried flanks, we tried behind heavy cover, we tried up close.

Flanks, you move away and do what you can to 'em and wait for the rest to arrive.
Heavy cover, focus fire on whatever you fear most and kill it. Backing up helps.
Up close, rush 'em and unload everything.

Mahu wrote:I am more then willing to admit that I am wrong if you are willing to argue something other then "I am the greatest HURRR!" Then at least their would be a fair amount of credibility in your points.

Dude, I've been playing the demon list more often than not. About 1 in 4 I play another army vs the demons. I'm getting my ass handed to me. How am I the greatest HURRR? lol

I'm assuming by "playtesting" rules and stuff that haven't been released yet that means you are a "playtester" for GW. Now, I have a friend who is a playtester for PP and he can't even tell me, a close friend, what book/army his is currently testing due to his NDA until after it is released. Yet here you are blabbing on about things that you've tested that haven't been released yet. Hmm.... So either you have access to super-secret advance data on the codex/V5 rulebook and "playtest" with your friends, or you are lying out of your butt, or you've very probably violated the terms of your NDA.

Which is it?

Also, why does every tactics thread you get involved in devolve to "I'm the greatest tactician in the world! I'm going to be a dick cause no one else's opinion even matters. Mwahahahaha!" I keep picturing Buddy from the Incredibles, just a sad kid with delusions of grandeur.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Actually the playtest rules for 5th were leaked a long time ago, not that it matters now since the book is being printed as we speak. I have also seen the playtest PDF and played games with it.

Actually since the demon book is technically out and im only referring to the leaked pdf...I am safe in what I say, but thank you for your pretend concern\insult. As far as I am the greatest, you are just being rude again. I am incredibly upset with this book, and there is nothing I can do about it. I want Sisters in plastic, not a half assed fantasy army that doesn't work. Fair enough?

Stelek wrote:@Traskel: Wow a squad of 8 bloodcrushers, huh. First, doubt I'll ever see that many. Even the local khorne nut only has 4 of them. Are you aware of their points cost? And how utterly useless they are against non-infantry?

Easy KP indeed. You field 8, I laugh at you. Yes, it's a tough unit. On paper. Go ahead and buy it, build it, paint it, then play it. I highly suggest two at first, as eight is a bit much. See how you like them first. When they disappoint you, don't get mad about it. Just remember I saved you from buying eight.

So, your arguments against them is that they aren't useful against vehicles, and that you think they cost a lot of points.

Given the codex, I think it's fairly safe to say a large portion of your army isn't going to be good against vehicles. These guys are more useful against vehicles than most of the troops choices, and enough str 6 attacks can take down lighter armored vehicles in a pinch (not that I would recommend it). As far as their cost, I'm fairly certain it's somewhere close to the cost of a terminator, and you're trading the 2+ save for a 3+ and an extra wound, while being immune to instant death. I haven't actually looked at the dex myself, so I could be extremely mistaken about the points costs, but I doubt it.

And don't worry, I was never planning on buying even two of them.

No, my argument is they cost too much to run in a large formation, they eat battlecannon shots in such formations, and without a large formation you can't tie up lots of units.

Which against the armies demons can beat, you need to be able to do because you won't have enough guys left to take care of business once you get shot to pieces.

Is there anything in this list that can take down a monolith?

Soulgrinders can get a str 10 18" range weapon that hits on 4+.

Much more effective, to my mind, is to drop flamers of tzeentch and hit it with the template. If you hit with one group all 3 flamers should be able to hit it, giving you 1.25 glances. 2 groups of flamers (or 3 glances) should immobilize or destroyer a lith.

The real win vs. Necrons comes from the sheer number of power weapon weilding units that drop, and the Necron splitting fire deficiency. Daemons are one of the few armies that can make a good try at the idiotic "Ignore the Lith/C'tan and phase them out strategy)

40kenthusiast wrote:Much more effective, to my mind, is to drop flamers of tzeentch and hit it with the template. If you hit with one group all 3 flamers should be able to hit it, giving you 1.25 glances. 2 groups of flamers (or 3 glances) should immobilize or destroyer a lith.

Are you talking about 4th edition? Flamers do nothing to liths in 5th edition.

"Oooh warm, tickle."

40kenthusiast wrote:The real win vs. Necrons comes from the sheer number of power weapon weilding units that drop, and the Necron splitting fire deficiency. Daemons are one of the few armies that can make a good try at the idiotic "Ignore the Lith/C'tan and phase them out strategy)

I dunno, your decepticron list should hold up fairly well. Lots of shooting that will take down the hordes, and DP fear the C'Tans. 6 to wound sucks. He also walks through Soulgrinders, not that that really matters but you can safely ignore them and pummel the basic troops. With the mobility of your destroyers, they'll probably never kill any of them.

Stelek, what you fail to realize is units work together in tandem. Units are more than stats on the page, but are parts of a whole that add a synergy to an army.

Flamers so not have to destroy the monolith, just immobilize it. Then all kinds of good things happen...

Soulgrinders can assault it.

It also means that you can block the exit so that they do not 'port squads through.

It will block LOS so that your demons can get close to the Necrons without being shot.

necrons would seriously tear the daemon list to pieces. a soul grinder wouldn't last more than turn two, having so many glances against it

Stelek wrote:
"Oooh warm, tickle."

Necrons do not like the Pavane. If they drop 10 assault units, you shoot down...say 6 completely, and then they drop their pavaners and get 3-4 off, you might well find your self in very big multi-unit combats. Could get pretty messy, esp. as they pull you out of orb range or out of WBB distance from other crons.

Blackmoor wrote:Stelek, what you fail to realize is units work together in tandem. Units are more than stats on the page, but are parts of a whole that add a synergy to an army.

Flamers so not have to destroy the monolith, just immobilize it. Then all kinds of good things happen...

Soulgrinders can assault it.

It also means that you can block the exit so that they do not 'port squads through.

It will block LOS so that your demons can get close to the Necrons without being shot.

I don't fail to realize this.

I've failed to play necron players who suck.

They park the liths in the back, behind warriors.

You know, working in tandem, the warriors protect the liths from the autoglances.

Alternatively, they leave the liths in reserve and DS into the demon army and zap away--but we've found leaving the liths on the board and just keeping them away from the flamers is good enough.

They get shot at by the soulgrinders, and if they don't die; they zap zap the demons.

Sorry, no blocking LOS with the liths. Sit back 6 and 1/2 inches from the Immortal screen and you're immune to the flamers. (6.5 + 1" base + 1" separation...if you have a demon player willing to come that close).

FWIW We stopped playtesting the necrons against the demons as it was usually a wash.

Necrons take what shooting the demons have, and get back up.

Then the demons get shot to pieces.

Anything left? Lock it with the scarabs.

More stuff arrives? Shoot it.

Is it time for the C'tan to go punish some demon princes? Yay. 3+, 6+, 4+ vs 4+, 2+, No+. Yeah, it's amusing to watch 3 DP beating on Nightbringer and dying one after the other. Or Deceiver. Run away! And you, die! It's a bucket of laughs.

You done trying to "school me" now?

I think my opponents would laugh at your comments.

Soulgrinders live against a Necron army? How's that work? That heavy D gun isn't something you can stop, after all.

Put the liths in front of the Necrons? Why?

Maybe you should play one game then give the theoryhammer a whirl, k?

By the way, the Necron deployment goes like this:

Immortals out in front.

Warriors fill in the gaps.

Liths and destroyers about 8" back. Liths in the open, destroyer units behind cover.

C'Tan right in the middle of your L deployment, to encourage your opponent to try and DS away from his corner. Increases mishap and generally screws the demons over because they can't shoot him dead and they can't outassault him without swarming him.

If you have a lord, you can put him near the C'tan so you can bust out two guys into limited CC if you need to finish off single demons. Lord isn't great, but better him than getting locked--and with the warscythe, one hit will finish most demons and they can't kill him straight away. A destroyer lord makes him even more irritating to demons, esp khorne ones and DP's.

Heavy D take out soulgrinders, or put shots into any MC with a 5+ save. Regular destroyers punk T4 demons.
Immortals punk the demonettes. Warriors go last, fire at anything they don't need a 6 to wound.

If there's lots of nurglings down, but only a couple MC/grinders; engage the MC (esp cheap demon princes) with the destroyer lord followed by the c'tan getting in the way of any assault + the heavy destroyers fire at whatever the lord is running into so he'll kill it; and fire everything else at the nurglings.

Immortals and heavy D chew them up. 3+, 2+. Yes please. The warriors should NOT fire, and should instead engage any surviving nurglings so they can't lock your immortals or destroyers. Of course, if there's only 1 or 2 bases left, of course you should fire the warriors.

If there are no other demons but MC and nurglings, the warriors can fire and your scarabs can take down the nurglings instead of the warriors--but if there's say a few strong demonairlines units in the back, hit them with the scarabs and destroy the nurglings with the warriors. If you don't, they'll tie up your best shooting units and you'll have to deal with the next wave of troops on turn 2 with your worst shooting units. Better to tie them up.

Anyway, properly played the lith lists and the decepticron lists manhandle the demons pretty well.

See, being unable to do anything but fire BS3 anti-tank shots, or BS4 BoC (and costing you MC); and having very little decent fire without going all tzeentch (which means, the necrons will get back up and you won't) means against a mobile assault fire army you're not going to do well. Especially when they have expendable units and a MC that can manhandle all of your MC...yeah, you can't really 'play' a demon army well. You drop here, or there. You come in piecemeal. Smart players will castle up, and you'll be exactly where they want you--at long range to get whittled down, or at short range to get shot to pieces and assaulted when you want.

Everyone seems to believe the demon army is a big shock.

It isn't.

It deploys randomly in front of you, or it tries to hide; and you pick it apart.

Claiming otherwise, especially under 5th edition rules, is just silly theoryhammer at it's best.

I think Stelek is wrong. I think there are very few absolutes in 40K. I think there are more variables, especially with missions, that these sweeping statements are wrong. I won't be able to post 17 times to refute everything everyone says that goes against what I say so just cut and paste this response 16 more times.

40kenthusiast wrote:Necrons do not like the Pavane. If they drop 10 assault units, you shoot down...say 6 completely, and then they drop their pavaners and get 3-4 off, you might well find your self in very big multi-unit combats. Could get pretty messy, esp. as they pull you out of orb range or out of WBB distance from other crons.

Indeed. You know in 5th, I can see your list before we start setting up, right?

It's quite easy to sacrifice scarabs to keep your primary shooting units in place and intact.

Who cares if the scarabs get moved? 20 scarabs is an awful lot of terrain covered, and since you cannot break coherency...well, the scarabs can always be in front to deny this tactic.

You should try it. One unit of 10 scarabs is 120 points, and can be spread out what...2" gap, 1.9" near the board edge, larger than 1" base, what is that, 30 inches?

Put the second unit 2.9 inches from the first one (so deep strikers can't land). Spread it out same as the first. If you only have 1 scarab unit, put a unit of warriors down.

Put the rest of your army 2.9 inches from the second set of scarabs/warriors.

Put the 2nd warrior unit down 2.9 inches from the second set, if you are really worried about being hurt.

I mean, you've GOTTA be good if you do so well at big tournaments--but this is pretty freaking basic anti-deep strike stuff. You play necrons, but don't know this?

Anyway, this makes the rest of your army immune to a hell of a lot. Wanna place 6" away from me, so you can hit me with the 18" lash? Go right ahead. Deviate back, you'll be out of range. Deviate forward, you might mishap and that totally wrecks your army. Safer to DS about 8-10" away, and hope for a hit or a small deviate. Then you should still be able to move stuff around, but sadly you can't really engage any part of the army a necron player gives a crap about. And that's the part that's going to kill your army.

Drop one fast destroyer unit and you can buy the scarabs to save your entire army. Hurts a bit on the firepower, but thems the breaks.

You can sacrifice all your warriors if you really want to, but if you've played 5th at all--you know you really don't want to in objective missions.

I don't mind being wrong.

I've tried my best to figure out how to bust this list out into a winning combination. Alot of other people have too.

The answer so far, not just from us (I'm just being vocal about it, on this one iddy biddy forum), but from everyone I've talked to that's testing it--is that it's not a good list because once the shock wears off, what are you left with?

100% vs 50%, random deployment, pisspoor shooting, and great assault capability...if you can find anything to assault. There are alot of armies you can't assault these days. Then there are other armies you don't want to assault, even with demons, because you won't win.

I'd rather have a balanced army than this one. I don't want to face a rock with my scissors army, and be pissed I lost because my army is too poorly designed to deal with it. That's not asking too much, is it?

When the codex comes out I suspect we will see alot more people realizing how hit and miss the demons really are. Scenarios that require reserves will be interesting, as this will put the demons on a level playing field, giving them the chance they need to compete. But in a standard mission they simply can't cope with the kind of losses they will most likely take to a well balanced army.

Ah, I wasn't considering the large scarab unit approach. Mostly I see Defensive Crons (who don't tend to have scarabs because they can't go through the liths and because of phase out issues) and Decpticrons, who don't tend to have them because their fast slots are full of shooters.

Hmm...thinking about the swarm approach. It's gonna go...

Daemons Drop, as you say, >7 inches from swarm, form up. Necrons shoot down lots of daemons...then scarabs boost away and leave Necrons ~18 inches from foe? Not safe enough with pavane and cav style units, so they gotta charge in. Scarabs vs. Daemons, gonna go the Daemons way when the MC's hit, but they probably waited out the first DS to get the icons down, so the scarabs buy you a bit of time, Necrons form up at a distance and game.

Looks like a good approach. I'll try it out, maybe have to modify my decepticrons to get a unit of scarabs in if Daemons start proliferating. Longshot made a similar case once before, and I've had several games recently where I really could have used them.

I've failed to play necron players who suck.

They park the liths in the back, behind warriors.

You know, working in tandem, the warriors protect the liths from the autoglances.

Then you deep strike on the other side of the board and engage them in a long range fire-fight, and advance your fast moving units behind cover. Necrons are not that mobile, and besides the Destroyers, necrons have no real long range shooting.

Alternatively, they leave the liths in reserve and DS into the demon army and zap away--but we've found leaving the liths on the board and just keeping them away from the flamers is good enough.

If you deep strike them then the demons will be on you before they see the board.

They get shot at by the soulgrinders, and if they don't die; they zap zap the demons.

What is the range of them? 18”? I thought they are in the rear behind the warriors.

Sorry, no blocking LOS with the liths. Sit back 6 and 1/2 inches from the Immortal screen and you're immune to the flamers. (6.5 + 1" base + 1" separation...if you have a demon player willing to come that close).

Then we just go for Phase out. If you have your necrons in the front, and the monoliths in the rear, you are asking for trouble.

Necrons take what shooting the demons have, and get back up.

Then the demons get shot to pieces.

Anything left? Lock it with the scarabs.

More stuff arrives? Shoot it.

As Mahu said, you need to use cover and a flank to minimize the amount of return fire if you chose the option of a close in fight for phase out. Remember that you will not be bunched up because of the battle cannons, so the amount of fire will be limited.

Since Demons can split there forces, that means that you can split up into the HQ + heavy slots and sit back and shoot, and have your troops in the other half of the army and see if you can take out 60 odd models in one round of shooting.

Is it time for the C'tan to go punish some demon princes? Yay. 3+, 6+, 4+ vs 4+, 2+, No+. Yeah, it's amusing to watch 3 DP beating on Nightbringer and dying one after the other. Or Deceiver. Run away! And you, die! It's a bucket of laughs.

One thing nice about demons is that they make good tar pit units.

Also the movement of a C’Tan is 6” and a Demon Prince moves 12” If you get into assault with a DP, I did something wrong.

You done trying to "school me" now?

I was just getting warmed up!

I think my opponents would laugh at your comments.

I find that funny since they have no idea what army I am thinking of bringing. I bet if they saw my army across from them they would sober up in a hurry.

Soulgrinders live against a Necron army? How's that work? That heavy D gun isn't something you can stop, after all.

Ok, let me get this right, you have multiple monoliths, a C’tan, Scarab swarms, Heavy Destroyers. Destroyers, and Immortals? I am sorry if you think this is for apocalypse, but this is for games between 1500 and 1850 points.

Did you know that they only thing in a Necron army that can kill a Soulgrinder is the Heavy Destroyer?

Maybe you should play one game then give the theoryhammer a whirl, k?

Maybe you should take a few months, and see what different builds and combinations come out of the codex before we say that the demon codex is not any good.

By the way, the Necron deployment goes like this:

Edited out a lot of theory hammer about how an infinite amount of Necrons can beat a demon army that has no discernible purpose.

Yeah

Claiming otherwise, especially under 5th edition rules, is just silly theoryhammer at it's best.

I like how you use the phrase “Under 5th Edition rules” and “Just silly theoryhammer” in the same sentence.

I would also like point out that using Necrons to show that the Demon codex will have trouble beating them is rather stupid.

Every codex including Orks has trouble beating Necrons, so you are not proving the Demon weaknesses, but rather proving that Necrons are hard to beat.

Well, ya said alot blackmoor but the only thing I noticed worth replying to was this:

"Did you know that they only thing in a Necron army that can kill a Soulgrinder is the Heavy Destroyer?"

Really?

Really?

Really?

40kenthusiast wrote:Ah, I wasn't considering the large scarab unit approach. Mostly I see Defensive Crons (who don't tend to have scarabs because they can't go through the liths and because of phase out issues) and Decpticrons, who don't tend to have them because their fast slots are full of shooters.

Hmm...thinking about the swarm approach. It's gonna go...

Daemons Drop, as you say, >7 inches from swarm, form up. Necrons shoot down lots of daemons...then scarabs boost away and leave Necrons ~18 inches from foe? Not safe enough with pavane and cav style units, so they gotta charge in. Scarabs vs. Daemons, gonna go the Daemons way when the MC's hit, but they probably waited out the first DS to get the icons down, so the scarabs buy you a bit of time, Necrons form up at a distance and game.

Looks like a good approach. I'll try it out, maybe have to modify my decepticrons to get a unit of scarabs in if Daemons start proliferating. Longshot made a similar case once before, and I've had several games recently where I really could have used them.

I think demons will be very popular this year.

Just like Necrons were when they were released.

Then it'll be back to Eldar, Nids, and Orks beating up the Marines.

Blackmoor wrote:I would also like point out that using Necrons to show that the Demon codex will have trouble beating them is rather stupid.

Every codex including Orks has trouble beating Necrons, so you are not proving the Demon weaknesses, but rather proving that Necrons are hard to beat.

I've lost one game to Necrons.

My first.

None since.

Not at any GT, RTT, friendly or unfriendly game, or learning games where I take 500 point hits to my army list.

Hard to beat?

Really?

Really?

Really?