2 PF in 5th?

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**Smashotron**

Hey all,

Quick rumor question! From what I'v heard, powerfists will lose their +1A in close combat unless wielded with another powerfist (i.e. no bp/pf or pp/pf). My question is, do you think the option will be FAQed or somehow added into the recent CSM codex, as I would assume the new SM codex will have the option, similar to twin lighting claws. I just modelled an amazing twin pf aspiring champion and would love to benefit from the new rule. Any speculations? Because obviously nothing is fact yet.

**Asmodai**

I doubt it. Two Powerfists is basically what makes Marneus and the Gauntlets of Ultramar special.

I'd be very surprised to see it in either CSM or SM. It's not in DA or BA either.

GW is trying to reduce the proliferation of Powerfists - I doubt that the method to mitigate the change will be commonly available.

**Smashotron**

As an aside, how many people do you think would cry this model I made is illegitimate? It is modeled with two fists and a holstered bolt pistol.

**Moz**

Zero people will cry. Use your cool champion model.

**Storm Lord**

Just use it, if they dont let you use it they don't deserved to be played, part of the joy of wargaming is to use cool looking models, just tell them what it will count as being armed with, a power fist, bolt pistol and a big fist to hold the pistol in!

**Techboss**

I don't think anyone would mind about your model.

As far as the powerfist vs power weapon debate. The powerfist still statistically better at killing MEQs, even with 1 less attack while still being able to insta kill multi-wound targets and work over vehicles. The arguement for the power weapon only works if melta-bombs and krak grenades have a rules change.

**WhiteDevil**

Sucks for the black templar players. Their crusader squads only get 1 PF attack in 5th. Big difference from 2.

**tegeus-Cromis**

I think BT get enough relative advantages in 5th not to mind so much.

**JohnHwangDD**

What's nice is that he's a Chaos guy wtih twin PFs. That means you can get the +1A by taking MoK.

**Sok**

Personally, I don't mind the loss of the extra attack, seeing as though my Vet. Sergeants can't seem to hit anything anyway... besides, I much prefer to annihilate an opponent in a single round of CC by assaulting an emeny with mulitple units than getting bogged down in a protracted combat, so I still gain the +1 for charging, right?

**Wehrkind**

Is there any reason why you can't just drop the points on two fists for one character? Is it a total wargear limit or something? I thought you could get doubles of weapons if you want, just not wargear, so if you wanted to buy two power swords, yay for you.

**tegeus-Cromis**

Of course you can in the current SM dex, but who cares? No one in their right mind would do it.

**covenant84**

there's no point buying two pw is there? not since 2nd when you got one attack per weapon plus any bonuses (If I remember rightly anyway, that's how we played but back then we were noobs)

**tegeus-Cromis**

Uh, this whole thread is about 5th ed, where PFs are rumoured to not give the +1A unless paired with a second PF. Get with the programme.

**Wehrkind**

What I mean is, is there any reason a chaos champ can not have two power fists? It costs a lot, but I don't see why it isn't legal (sensible is another question

). I just can't think of a reason it is not ok, other than how expensive it is.

**tegeus-Cromis**

Oh, you were talking about Chaos! The reason is that they, like other new codices, don't use the old armory system, but rather a "may exchange their X for Y or Z" option list. There's no option for two PFs.

**smart_alex**

I dont really see the reason for the change, but I dont really run PF';s in my guard so I dont care either way.

**Boss Salvage**

I think it's a bit much, like the assault cannon kneejerk nerf by GW has been for the new marines codexes. Assault cannon abused in Codex: SM? Codex: DA and BA now have fewer assault cannons that cost 2x as much (and will soon drop in effectiveness with rending change).

Powerfist abused in Codex: SM / CSM? Codex: CSM, DA, BA now have more expensive powerfists (which will soon drop in effectiveness with powerfist + pistol change).

For the record my CSM have ONE powerfist AC. Sad to see that 55 point fist will be dropping from 3 to 2 attaks :S

- Salvage

**Techboss**

Boss_Salvage wrote:I think it's a bit much, like the assault cannon kneejerk nerf by GW has been for the new marines codexes. Assault cannon abused in Codex: SM? Codex: DA and BA now have fewer assault cannons that cost 2x as much (and will soon drop in effectiveness with rending change).

GW has a very bad history of making AND changes when they should be making OR changes. Is/was the powerfist a bit to efficient for it's points in the current edition? Probably. The possible solutions are:

- Armor saves per model instead of on the whole squad
- Powerfists no longer stack with pistols as other CCWs do
- Increase the points cost for the upgrade from 15 to 25 points

GW could have done any of of the above or possibly 2 of the above and been fairly reasonable. However, they chose to do all 3 and thus overly compensated. Same can be said for transports from 3rd to 4th.

**Boss Salvage**

Great point. I forgot about armor saves being able to knock out the fister through overload ...

- Salvage

**Wehrkind**

Yea, sorry, I didn't realize Chaos was different. I was speaking about the previous poster who was worried about his two fisted champ.

I am going to miss the armory. Even though my WH and DH armories are a mess of "Only unit type x,y,z can take this item", it is still a fun idea.

I agree with Salvage that GW seems to really over correct. It's like they have a brain storming session, come up with 2-4 good fixes, then can't decide so they throw them all in at once.

**The Tsunami**

I hate the removal of the armory. I guess with 5th edition it won't really matter. Stuff will be all new and messed up anyway. Might as well get with the program. :(

**wash-away**

where did this removal of the armory rumor come from?!

**Dakkaladd**

Not a rumor, look at any of the new codices. There is no more armory per se. All the weapon options are stated in the unit entry.

**Storm Lord**

It's supposidly to to make it more 'game friendly' so you don't get super tooled up things that maybe shouldn't really get a certain weapon option (if it were in in the Armoury and they could pick anything).
Instead it seems to have taken some of the flexibility out of army creation and straight laced players more.

**tegeus-Cromis**

Oh bs. What kind of wild and crazy gear do you see on loyalist Vet Sgts, eh? Combi-meltas, mastercrafted chainswords--is that what you see? No, you see PF + BP, and in 5th, you'll see PF + bolter or sometimes PW + BP. The "flexibility" has always been mostly illusory. I welcome the streamlining.

**Storm Lord**

Erm, yeh actaully I do see Vet sgts with master crafted chainswords.
if everyone uses the smae combo's always then it becomes less challenging to play against people when there isn't any new combinations to pit your wits against.

I'm not sure in some ways why it bothers me though, I play Necrons, so in some ways the new codex set up might give me more options (wishful thinking maybe...)

**tegeus-Cromis**

Are you telling me a gaming environment where people field Vet Sgts with MC chainswords is a game environment where you can't convince people to use house rules? For shame.

Not being able to take MC chainswords, combi-grenade launchers, bionics etc. makes things less challenging? Seriously? I see nothing challenging about useless combinations--the biggest challenge they pose is trying to keep a straight face when I see them. Taking them out of the dex makes games against idiots and fluffbunnies (which is not to imply that a person who is one is necessarily the other) more challenging, not less, because it means there are fewer ways people can shoot themselves in the foot. I'm all for it.

**Smashotron**

Off topic but relevant;

My whole problem with the streamlining is the fact that my Ultramarine/Grey Knights run off the very pleasant use of teleport homers. I hate the risk otherwise, and I more especially hate the 'new' (rumored) deep striking mishaps. Typically my Assault Marines deliver the teleport homers needed for thick Grey Knight squads to drop in with.

I don't see any teleport homers in the Blood Angels list and the Dark Angels have the benefit of having it on every biker or bike sergeant, IIRC. But will this option be available to the standard marine veteran?

**Storm Lord**

Fair enough, I see where your coming from with bionics, they jsut seem a pointless option that often are forgotten in the heat of battle. What I possibly should have said was that I like being able to have the option to take something-incase a few points were left here and there, just to make my HQ/vet sgts a little unique.

Also when have combi grenade launchers been an option? if they are then I've got to get me one!