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Maybe I'm just the first person to notice this, but I starting thinking last night about Shrike. Due to his "See, but Remain Unseen" rule, "Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the Infiltrate rule." (emphasis mine)

Now, Shrike may be classified as Jump Infantry, but that doesn't stop him from joining, before the game starts, a squad classified differently, like Infantry.

See where I'm going?

It appears you can use Shrike to give Infiltrate to a squad that would not normally possess it. Everyone knows about doing it with an assault squad or Vanguard, but what about other units? Infiltrating unit of bikes? Sure! Infiltrating unit of Assault Terminators? Bring it on! How about Sternguard? Or even another IC!

Even better, he can leave the squad in the first turn, so neither he nor his squad he brought with him are limited to moving at the slowest speed of the unit. Add to that, all the units in the army get Fleet. Imagine infiltrating assault terminators just 12" away from your opponent and charging on the first turn!

It seems like that could open up some opportunities to make units that don't get as much love like heavy weapons squads a little lovin', too.

With the way LOS works now, infiltrating 12" from a unit is pretty rare, so rare as to not even consider it IMHO.

It is a neat trick though.

I agree with winterman, but I do see your point. If this trick will do anything, It will most certanly disrupt the enemy plan of action to have 10 assault termies only 18 inches from his lines. This could easyly give time for the rest of your army to position itself for maximum effect. I can't think of any army that will take down 10 assault termies without pouring all their fire into them.

winterman wrote:With the way LOS works now, infiltrating 12" from a unit is pretty rare, so rare as to not even consider it IMHO.

It is a neat trick though.

I think he was condensing Infiltrate and a roll of 6 for Fleet.

Iboshi2 wrote:I agree with winterman, but I do see your point. If this trick will do anything, It will most certanly disrupt the enemy plan of action to have 10 assault termies only 18 inches from his lines. This could easyly give time for the rest of your army to position itself for maximum effect. I can't think of any army that will take down 10 assault termies without pouring all their fire into them.

Now thats just EVIL....

::as I run to my FLGS to buy a shrike and more Termies..::

I think he was condensing Infiltrate and a roll of 6 for Fleet.

I read it as a 12" inflitrate and fleet, since then you have a great shot at a first turn charge (assuming the target unit doesn't have the chance to turn tail and run from ya). Cause with 18" infiltrate even a 6" fleet/run will not be enough for the first turn charge for assault terminators and the like.

I did imply 12" and fleet. Sometimes that's still viable. Even if not, a second turn charge is nothing to sneeze at. And worse comes to worse, Shrike detaches and charges in on turn 1 to tie up the squads.

I think that infiltrating vanguard will be a better option. I think the most important aspect of this plan is not simply destroying enemy units, but disruption of them. With the termies, sure you tie up a turn of shooting, which is nothing to sneeze at (ah... ahhh.. ahhh ... ACHOO!... sorry, i just had to do it), but then what? They might, if they're lucky, wipe out a squad on their charge, even better, they wipe out the squad on the opponents turn, but then they die. So the benefit threshold is between absorbing a turn of shooting, to killing 1 squad, and forcing your opponent to waste 2 turns, 1 reforming the line to optimize shooting against your very nasty termies, and the second killing them all.

But fleeting vanguard? They give you a whole bunch of options. First, the minimum benefit threshold is much better, where if you get the first turn they WILL be embroiled in CC no matter what your opponent wants. Second, they have far more mobility giving them a chance to possibly take on another unit after killing their first in your opponents turn. Third, they still are a HUGE threat, and will have to be dealt with at the risk of your opponent losing his line all together. They can be equipped for far more circumstances, and can send your enemies tanks flying like butterflies in a merry wind of DOOM.

It's time like these that I miss shrike's wing, sure youve spent 685 points on one squad, but you've got 36 lightning claw attacks, lots of melta bombs, and an additional 6 rending MC lightning claw attacks.

But wait... they infiltrate.

But wait... they have a scout move.

But wait... they get +1 to their cover saves.

True, assault squads or vanguard are pretty good, and do have the mobility benefit. It's a good unit, but not as durable as the Terminators.

In any case, the idea was to use Shrike to give Infiltrate to units that people would never expect to be infiltrated, or that could almost never get to infiltrate. Who expects to see Infiltrating Terminators? Or Infiltrating Bikers?

I can't remember, does infiltrate include dedicated transports belonging to the unit?
(Infiltrating land raider crusader or redeemer is why I ask)

How about infiltrating some melta-toting sternguard behind their vehicles?

Or infiltrate some shooty termies, so that if they run away you can still do viable damage? (Plus its funny to picture Shrike trying to get a termy with a CML on his shoulders to 'quietly sneak into position...' )

Hellsguardian read above post and subsquent posts

Hellsguardian's eye go wide wondering if this can really be true

Hellsguardian begin to laugh manically when he realises it is

Hellsguardian blows the dust off his terminators muttering and laughing "soon my brothers, soon"

That would make a nice surprise for the opponent! Infiltrate also gives you the ability to outflank, so more possibilities!

btw, if a unit that can infiltrate is deployed inside a transport, it can't infiltrate.

Ah, that blows that one out of the water, cheers.

Also note that one of the restrictions to the trick is that Shrike cannot bring a transport vehicle with him period, as he is classified as jump infantry, which cannot typically be transported, even in something like a land raider. Whether he could bring a squad with a dedicated transport with him (leaving the transport to set up normally) is dubious.

Yes, he may bring another squad with him, if they leave their Rhino on the battle lines. Or even if they leave their Rhino in reserve. If you're allowed to deploy them on different turns in different ways, I see no reason why you can't Shrike them too. Not much different between Teleporting in the Termies while driving their LRC on the board.

Have now been able to read the codex and rulebook and have to say I don't think you can Infiltrate Termies

Pg48 (top right)
Says that you can join a unit during deployment, and as Infiltrate is done after deployment the Termies would be forced to be deployed before hoining Shrike.

However he can be joined by a command squad with bikes as it states in that entry he may take them as an option.

Actually it says he may be joined to a unit before the game by being deployed with them. So you deploy both Shrike and the Termies at the same time, he joins them before the game, and they both get deployed together during the infiltration deployment.

How is this a "secret"? I mean its in his fething rules.


Did you know you can have your Space Marine Techmarine bolster defenses and then give your Scouts a 2+ save !!!!! UNBELIEVABLE.


You want slowed you can actually give a drop pod the scout ability.


HOW DO YOU SAY?

Per the rules

Cato Sicarius

one unit of space marines may have the following rules infiltrate, scout etc..


From the rule book

Scouts if a unit with this ability has a dedicated transporte vehicle it confers the scout ability to the transport as well

erm, no it doesn't Breton, he may begin the game by being deployed. Infiltrate takes place after all deployment.

Pg48 Rulebook

Alternativily an independent charactor may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them

Pg 92 SM Codex

See, But Remain Unseen Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule (see the warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

That means to gain infiltrate the unit must be joined before deployment other wise you'd have to deploy the unit then join, then move them so you can do infiltrate after deployment.

So the only ones that can benefit from Shrikes infiltrate are the the Command squad with whatever upgrades you've given them, bikes, etc

If I've missed anything relating to the above that says something then I'll stand corrected

hellguardian has a really good point. I got used to attaching ICs to units prior to deployment thanks to the INAT FAQ in 4th ed, but 5th ed is pretty explicit about it.

You attach when you place the IC onto the table, at which point it's of course too late to infiltrate or convey the rule onto some random squad.

True, but when do you deploy the unit, and when do you deploy Shrike? Back when we had a set deployment order of units on the FOC, that argument made more sense.

Otherwise, nothing except Scouts could ever join Shrike. The command squad technically isn't a retinue IIRC for Shrike, so they wouldn't set up with him necessarily.

Also keep in mind you can keep any units in reserve, and roll for both them and the commander at the same time. I imagine it would work somewhat similar to this.

I'll have to look over the deployment rules more carefully before I completely claim anything, but my gut feeling is that this will still work.

Common Sense, is not Common.



It really is a argument of semantics of the phrase "begin the game", when is the game begun? On the first turn, when you start putting out models? when you start placing terrain, when do you actually "begin the game".

For this matter you can never use shrikes main ability of infilitrating except on outflanking. Thats it all he does is allow one unit to outflank.

Compare that with another character Khan, who gives EVERYONE outflank that has Combat Tactics.


So why use Shrike at all?

... because your guys get fleet? And shrike is way the hell cooler? And because I said so?

There are 3 extremely viable reasons I just gave you.

Top that!!!

But seriously, this has now become a discussion for the You make da call forum, but until the Admins change it we're stuck here. I think that, according to RAW, the opposition to Shrike's infiltrating squad of doom are correct. But according to RAI, shrike should allow whomever he fething well pleases to follow him in a merry jaunt around the ranks of the enemy sowing havoc when they pop out.

Also, am I the only guy who wonders why the $#%* shrike has smoke launchers?


oh and... It seems that I've been doing this a lot: so... bump

Shrike78 wrote:
Also, am I the only guy who wonders why the $#%* shrike has smoke launchers?

No. I thought he'd get rules for them in 5th. Maybe you could have a house rule for them.

Shrike78 wrote:Also, am I the only guy who wonders why the $#%* shrike has smoke launchers?

The guy likes to make an entrance. He has theme music, too. It sounds kinda like the Flash Gordon theme song that Queen did. Only gayer.

I Thought it would be more like this




Or this... +smoke



But you never know... it could be like this




(O-O)...

I think I'm gonna go change my user name now... after i finish barfing.

Maybe he uses them for his grenades. Just guessing...

That would be a good guess...