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Your ideas about sportsmanlike playing are wanted.

How you should approach a game and your opponent.

Differences between friendly games and competition games.

Forms of cheating and how to counter them.

Winning and losing with grace.

And so on.

I hope this thread will become a positive discussion.

The key issue for me is remembering that this is a GAME, and not real life. Even in a formal competition, it is still a GAME. If you win no one is going to think that much better of you. If you lose no one is going to think that much worse of you. But, if you get found out cheating, or are believed to be trying "too hard" and stretching rules too far in order to win everyone WILL think you are a completely sad git.

To paraphrase the bible "What profiteth it a man if he wins the whole tournament, but loseth his reputation?"

In any game there is more at stake than the outcome of the match - there is your reputation as a decent, upright human being. If the former means more to you than the latter, then you are probably "THAT GUY", and you need to be aware that most normal people may not enjoy your company... You are the moral equivalent of the guy at the office party who photocopies their backside - it sure gains you short term notoriety, but in the longer term its not going to do your prospects much good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htwo_pvcrSY

Osbad wrote: or are believed to be trying "too hard" and stretching rules too far in order to win everyone WILL think you are a completely sad git.

In any game there is more at stake than the outcome of the match - there is your reputation as a decent, upright human being.

Here is the perfect example of bad sportsmanship...Perpetuating the belief that anyone who plays in a different style than you do is a bad person.

If you cheat, then yeah...That's bad sportsmanship. However, there is no such thing as trying 'too hard', and there is no such thing as stretching rules, as long as you play by the same rules consistently. (Changing how you play by a rule to play the way that is always most advantageous to you...That's different.)

skyth wrote:However, there is no such thing as trying 'too hard', and there is no such thing as stretching rules, as long as you play by the same rules consistently. (Changing how you play by a rule to play the way that is always most advantageous to you...That's different.)

*sighs*

Do people deliberately try and misunderstand plain English?

Playing a particular rules interpretation that is favoured within your normal group is NOT "trying too hard". Clearly. That's just fair.

Why would you interpret my post as simply judging those who play differently to me? I try to win games. That's only courtesy to your oponent - there's nothing less satisfying than playing against someone who just doesn't care and doesn't "bring their A-game". I never said anything about not trying to win. Trying "too hard" to win though is a polite way of saying "being an arse who is obsessed with winning at all costs" as I believe I explained in the rest of my post. Its like behaving like John MacEnroe and being a childish little git over things not going your way. Its about cheating with dice. Its about neing inconsistent in interpreting LoS. Its about deliberately ignoring the house rules of the tournament and subsitituting your own house rules which happen to favour you. Its about ignoring the "unwritten rules" that most of the gaming world holds in common - such as using the "proper sized bases" for particular models.

And I'm afraid their simply IS such a thing as "stretching rules". Playing by the letter of a poorly written rule is one thing, but abusing it to the point of making the game a completely unenjoyable farce. That's something else entirely, and actually breaks "rule one" of the game - so in that sense is in itself cheating. To my mind, any behaviour that is about disrespecting your opponent - and abusing a loosely worded rule to produce an army that is unenjoyable to play against IS disrespecting your opponent - automatically breaks "rule one" and ipso facto is "cheating".

And clearly, before another oversensitive soul misinterprets my words, an "extreme army build" is not included in "stretching rules". Army lists are either legal or illegal. I'm talking about being arsey over LoS and such: abusing the opportunity to challenge whether an opponent's model can draw LoS on one of yours for instance is a classic example - doing it when you genuinely have doubts once or twice in a game is fine. Doing it every single time your opponent tries to shoot is clearly wrong. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Sheesh!

Osbad wrote:Do people deliberately try and misunderstand plain English?

Playing a particular rules interpretation that is favoured within your normal group is NOT "trying too hard". Clearly. That's just fair.

To some people, 'stretching the rules' is code for 'playing a different way than I want to and you're a bad person if you want to play differently'.

Why would you interpret my post as simply judging those who play differently to me?

Because it sounded like it to me. There is a lot of bullying that goes on in the hobby with people that think they have the 'one right way' to play the game (And you're a bad person if you think want to play differently). You used a lot of thier lingo in your post.

skyth wrote:Because it sounded like it to me.

And there we clearly see the dangers of going beyond RAW

osbad wrote
Do people deliberately try and misunderstand plain English?

Welcome to the interwebz


On topic - there is a difference between 'friendly' and 'competetive' games - but it is a continuum rather than a clear seperation.
There are things you would do/say in a friendly game that would be inappropriate in competition - but what if you are playing in a competetive game against a good friend?

Its all about reacting appropriately in any given situation - obviously you shouldn't cheat, but if you run across someone who is (or you think is) cheating, first clarify what's happening. It could be a mistake on their part. If they are determined, call a judge - be firm but fair (and don't get mad!).
If your opponent is tabling you, don't get frustrated, analyse the situation - why is it happening? Is it just luck, or did you make some bad calls on army selection/deployment/movement/etc.? Make sure you mean it when you congratulate them!
If you're tabling your opponent, don't gloat - but also don't rest on your laurels. Analyse the situation again. If you spot something obvious that your opponent did wrong, talk to them after, but don't be patronising!
Ask if they would like to talk about the game, get their opinion on your performance before you launch into what they did wrong.

In simple terms - be respectful, and you'll do fine...

Respect is one of those rules that is necessarily vague, but is also easily "forgotten" in
reality. It's easy to say that you want someone to be "respectful." The expression of
that respect is going to be difference according to the circumstance.

Some opponents feel disrespected when a player doesn't bring the biggest, baddest list
that they can field. Some opponents feel disrespected when a player doesn't know obscure
ruling number thirty nine from page fifteen of the FAQ.

It's why sportsmanship has been filed down to yes/no checklists, and none of them
seem to contain the vague term "respect." It's more like, "Did your opponent smell
bad? yes/no" They target very specific behaviors if, when followed, at least give the
appearance of respect.

A classic picture from White Dwarf.

I think that picture just about sums up GW's opinion on the subject.

and the rules lawyer guy is playing Skaven too. CLASSIC.

Of course, that wouldn't be a problem if the rules were clear and they actually did FAQ's.

What is required for good sportsmanship is simple.

1) Play by the rules
2) Know the rules
3) Don't gloat when you are winning/get upset when you're losing
4) Play at a decent speed
5) Remember that there is no 'one right way to play' and don't bully people who play differently (Including list power).

This, of course, requires any place hosting a tournament to have a written rules FAQ that accurately and completely describes any and all house rules that are in effect.
5)

Osbad wrote:The key issue for me is remembering that this is a GAME, and not real life. Even in a formal competition, it is still a GAME. If you win no one is going to think that much better of you. If you lose no one is going to think that much worse of you. But, if you get found out cheating, or are believed to be trying "too hard" and stretching rules too far in order to win everyone WILL think you are a completely sad git.

To paraphrase the bible "What profiteth it a man if he wins the whole tournament, but loseth his reputation?"

In any game there is more at stake than the outcome of the match - there is your reputation as a decent, upright human being. If the former means more to you than the latter, then you are probably "THAT GUY", and you need to be aware that most normal people may not enjoy your company... You are the moral equivalent of the guy at the office party who photocopies their backside - it sure gains you short term notoriety, but in the longer term its not going to do your prospects much good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htwo_pvcrSY

Something to think a bit , also, is the fact that prospective employers, can gauge whether they want to hire someone or not based on some crazy things. The more important the position, the deeper they dig and all kinds of things can be pulled from the internet, especially when there are pictures and stories involved.
If someone has developed a major rep as a cheat in tournaments an employer could well think, "If this guy cheats to win a game of toy soldiers, then what kind of scruples does he really have? He certainly will not be trustworthy in any sensitive area, so we'll just pack him back out the door."
Sounds silly, I know, but I've heard of people losing out on high paying jobs for a lot less.

I always allow simple "take-backs".
In the rush of play, sometimes that squad of fire warriors forgot to fire at my squad before my opponent took care of dealing with the protracted scarab fight.
I'll just let my opponent rolls those shots.
I find this situation tends to be more frequent with the younger and/or spastic players.
You can normally tell if someone is trying to take advantage for this kind of leniency.

Belphegor, I do the same thing, with lots of things going on in the game and around, (a madly flailing wife for instance) you might forget to shot an unit. no harm no foul.

I don't have a problem with that, unless they don't seem to ever learn from it.

When you declared your shooting before you moved that one squad three times in a row, it starts to get irritating, and I'd just as soon tell them they can't go back in hopes that they'll remember it in the future.

With respect to the subject of bringing your 'A' Game and playing things you way...this is why I stick to my local friendly games, though my group and I are eyeing up a Tournament in Portsmouth beginning of next year.

You see, I have been told a few times that unless I am bringing an army designed to win, then I am not showing respect to my opponent. This has always slightly baffled me somewhat, as my entire aim is to collect a force that is uniquely mine, ergo giving my opponents something unusual to fight against. Current project? 2,000 points of Savage Orcs, which I have now finally bought the entirety of, and am about half way through painting.

Now, just because Savage Orcs may not be that high up on peoples lists of what ded 'ard, does make them a weak choice. Far from it. When you have a unit of Chaos Chosen purposefully avoiding your Big'uns, it would seem to suggest not. I would wager that there are a myriad of possible builds with genuine power potential out there that are over looked, simply because the units involved are entirely metal, and only a minority of players are bonkers enough to collect it (hello.)

I don't want to be Rules Lawyered in my gaming. I don't want to come up against a Metagaming, Mathammer Enthusiast. That to *me* takes all the fun out of it. I'm from a different school of thought, hence why I tend to avoid those gamers entirely. Do I think my way is better? I suppose I do, because that is how I like to game. It would be wrongful for me to expect them to down gun a list to play me, as much as it is for them to expect me to up gun my list to play them.

And surely that can be seen to be the heart of SPORTSmanship. Lets take Boxing as a very good example. Lots of different weight divisions, and the Boxers train hard to be the best in their division. There is absolutely no point putting a Featherweight up against a Cruiserweight, as the outcome is rather predictable. The Featherweights tend to specialise in wearing their opponent out before getting in a flurry of jabs, whereas Cruiserweights are more about enduring heavy punches, and picking the right time to plant one on on the rivals chin. Ergo, Featherweight is eventually going to get flattened.

And that is how I see my gaming. I'm around Middleweight. I can slug it with the big boys, and dance around when I need to, but prefer a happy medium.

I don't play against people less capable than I, because it's largely a waste of everyones time (though I am happy to coach them) and I don't go in for really competitive play, because it's not my bag.

And being a good winner is more important than being a good loser. Most people over the age of 14 are good losers. They accept things didn't go their way, will have a grumble about the dice, and then move on to the next game. But I find good winners slightly less common.

The way I would interpret "bringing my A-game", is not that somehow develop a fantastic encyclopaedic knowledge of the rules and extreme tactical acuity. Rather that simply I make a decent attempt to win the game at the best of my ability.

That means things like concentrating on the game and not wandering off to chat to my mates half way through, even if I've got a bit bored with the game. It means, even if I find I'm totally outclassed by my opponent's skill, or my poor choice of list, or by the conditions of the scenario, I still give my opponent the honour of trying nevertheless to beat the odds, rather than just tipping my king and pleading "I never had a chance". (OK, perhaps if BOTH of us are finding the game completely one-sided I'd agree to end the game early with my opponent's consent, so as we didn't waste our time unecessarily and bore ourselves).

I think one of the key things to avoid is the appearance of being a braggart. By which I mean trying to achieve an undeserved reputation for skill. One of the ways some unsportsmanlike players try and achieve this is by walking away if things go against them and blaming the "dice gods" or the scenario or anything other than the possibility that they were outplayed or out-thought by their opponent.

The ego of the neckbeard can be a fragile thing...

I think to continue MDG's boxing analogy, I'd expect both boxers of whatever weight to give the bout their best shot. If on the other hand one of them refused to come out of the corner after he'd been knocked on the bonce once by the other "because his arms are longer than mine, so its not fair" or some other excuse I'd call him a poor sport. On the other hand, if he threw in the towel and in a sportsmanlike way acknowledged the other guy's victory, I'd call him a good sport.

Sure fate deals you a duff hand every now and again, and the odds can be against you in any given game. A good sport will take it on the chin and enjoy the game anyhow and seek to pose a worthy challenge to their opponent, seeking for the unlikely win, to gain satisfaction from minimising their losses, or even just have a laugh at their utter degredation at the hands of their opponent. A bad sport will try and weasel their way out of the situation so that they can try and maintain the facade of their invulnerable skill, even if only in their own eyes.

Indeed. Dice Gods can gang up on you from time to time, but it tends to be pretty clear to your opponent when this is, as they usually have a pained expression in sympathy with your bad luck!

But yes, wandering off during a game is bad show indeed, and I never like to give up. Example? Savages V Dark Elves the other week. He was all over me. I was reduced in the 3rd turn to two surviving units and 2 Shamans. He still had pretty much everything. Then the Big'uns hit home, tearing out his Lvl 3 Sorceress (also his General) and 30 Spears, whilst the other unit made extremely short work of a Lvl 2 Sorceress in a unit of 20 RxB's. In the last turn I clinched it by Gorks Warpathing the remaining Bolt Thrower and crew, wiping it out, panicking his nearby Hydra. I'd taken out everything, and had a mere 2 Boyz and a Shaman left. Highly enjoyable game, and my only regret is that a game that good is all too rare!

This thread seems to have derailed itself into a discussion about who is more right about the reason we should all play the game. That's not sportsmanship, it's simply personal preference. Also, it has a simple solution:

Don't play with people who have completely different reasons for playing the game than you do.

If you ignore that statement, you drastically increase the chances of both you and your opponent butting heads and having a generally shity game. It's *very* easy to pick out who focuses more on competition and who focuses more on fluff in this hobby. You see this kind of stupidity all the time, such as when people bring fluffy lists to tournaments then come to the internet to complain about powergamers. Stick to like-minded gamers and you'll enjoy fewer headaches.

With regards to sportsmanship, Skyth presented a pretty reasonable set of guidelines to follow. I would add a few other basic no-brainers, like don't insult your opponent, talk smack about them to others after the game (or during), etc.

I like skyth's advice too.

There are some basic points about dice rolling and counting that could be added.

Use the same set of dice throughout the game.
State what you are rolling for, what you need 'to hit' and how many dice you are rolling, before you roll.
Shake the dice properly, preferably in a cup.
Roll them so they bounce.
Anything that falls off the table or is cocked gets re-rolled.
Agree in advance what counts as being cocked.
Let the dice lie so you can both count them.
Remove the misses rather than the hits.

This is basic dice politeness.

See, thats the thing. My opponents and I do all the above, apart from shaking them in a cup.

To me, this is something I've just assumed *all* players do!

I just thought of another one:

If you notice cheating going on, don't get all bent out of shape as its only a game, not a matter of life and death. Feel free to mock him and take the pee though, as however sad you may be as a grown man playing a game with man-dollies and dice, he is sadder as a grown man cheating to win a game with man-dollies and dice!

When I play I try to:
-Be friendly and open about everything, starting the game with a bit of a chat about terrain expectations and preferred ways of playing (Do you like to know magic items ahead of time/know what's inside transports, here's my armylist, here's what everything is and what it can do in every squad)
-Bring my own dice, templates and measuring tape. I consider it a bit impolite and baffling the number of people who will pay 400+ euro for an army and fall down on having the nesssicary dice and template and a measuring tape.
-I try to play with a mostly painted army. It's not always possible, but I make a big effort to paint everything before a game.
-On rules queries I'll immediately pull out the book and read the section very quickly, and then pass it to my opponent. If it is unclear, I'll go with his interpretation if it seems reasonable, and D6 it if we can't come to a reasonable agreement.
-If I spot my opponent doing something ganky or he questions something about my play, I'm polite about it.
-I play fast. I really can't stand slow play, especially in a tournament. I was playing horde orks against marines not long ago, and the marine players turns were longer than mine despite no movement phase pretty much. That completely baffled me. I'd say if I get a bit pushy about anything it's asking my opponent to hurry up. I obviously make allowances for kids and new people.
-I allow take backs.
-I follow my oppponent's dice ettiquite.

That's how I play regardless of whether it is a friendly game or a tournament game. In my head, a tournament game is just a friendly game against someone I probably haven't met. I try to win all my games, and often bring the strongest list I can (although I have a weakness for "fun but not great units" like meganobs)and I don't see anything wrong with that. If I learn ahead of time that I'm fighting a fluffbunny with a totally weak army I MIGHT bring more of the fun but weak stuff like Shokk Attack Guns and Looted Wagons.

That was a big post, but three things seem important to me:
-Talk to your opponent
-Think about how you would like opponents to act towards you and then try to act like that.
-Know your rules and play fast.

Belphegor wrote:
I always allow simple "take-backs".

I will try to remind an opponent not to forget something. I think it is the epitome of poor sportsmanship to ask for a takeback. If I make a mistake, good sportsmanship on my part means that I accept my mistake and don't expect my opponent to make concessions so that I can get around my mistake.

An opponent who asks for a take-back puts me in an uncomfortable position. If I say no, then I look like a poor sport. But, if I say yes, I allow them to break the normal game rules and essentially forgive their mistake. Since I'm not going to ask for takebacks for my mistakes, I don't want to grant takebacks for theirs... It's just not a good situation. The sporting thing to do is to accept your own mistakes and not expect your opponent to let you undo them.

-------------------------------------

On how to display good sportsmanship:

Do everything obviously. When counting out dice for a roll, do so in easy to see increments, and explain why you get to roll that many. When measuring, place the tape measure on the table and move your guy to the end of it. If anything in your army breaks normal rules, make sure you explain that to your opponent at the beginning of the game, not when it becomes an issue. Don't expect that they know your army rules unless they tell you so. Make sure you designate which unit is in which transport somehow, and point out how you're keeping track of it to your opponent.

Oh, and in Fantasy, put the various power dice next to the model that has generated them. This prevents confusion on both sides about who has used what to cast!

Same goes with Dispel Scrolls. Nominate who is using!

If, like me, you have 3 Casters with various Wargear, if possible tell a 3rd Party which is which and who you are rolling spells for at the beginning of the game!

Actually turning into a really informative thread.

I always do the "I need 4's" pick up the dice... make eyecontact... then roll. For each roll I do this. That way we are clear on WS and STR INIT... all that, before the dice are even dropped. I find alot of times by just speaking clearly and letting your opponent know what you are doing as you are doing it, makes for a very good game. If there is a something not clear, the dialog is already there for your opponent to jump in. They will typically respond in the same way and the game go SO MUCH MORE SMOOTHLY.

Something I try to keep in mind when losing... "I will probably not remember this game next week."

There is a difference between friendly and "Ranked" games... I love silly characters and interesting combos. I love to try to pull them off... Just because they dont win games does not mean they dont make me smile. As an EX MtG player... I find it undeniable.

When it comes to dice rolling, it's all to easy to roll too many or too few, and very rarely is this intentional. My opponents have always been honest enough to 'oops' it and admit/point out the mistake, and the whole thing is re-rolled again.

Another common accident is when the dice rolled intermingle with those not involved in said roll. Simple solution is to own up, and if needed re-roll, with all other dice removed from the rolling area.

Rolling in a box lid helps to clear that issue up nicely.

One thing about dice. Roll scatter dice close to the target instead of across the board.