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In the new WoC book on page 106 it states that Sorcerers can use magic shields like "other champions of chaos."

My question is, can they use mundane shields because of this? There is no option for mundane shields in their profile...

Nope only the magic kind

There is still a strong debate against the notion that they can take magic shields. They do not have the option for mundane shields and the only reference to magic shields for sorcerers is in the description of sorcerers but no where else in the rules.

I dont understand how it could be understood any other way.

Because some people seem to believe that the reference to sorcerers is meant to encompass characters with the book of secrets of something that lets them cast. It's a very strained argument.

Of course, any halfway decent rule writer could have simply given Chaos Sorcs the option of shields.....

Because there is a clear difference between rules and descriptions. That section is more of a description of the sorcerer rather than how the sorcerer is supposed to be played. The Sorcerers do not have the option to take a mundane shield so they cannot take a magical shield.

Oh, I agree there is no shield option, but I disagree on the description "clearly" not being rules.

Um that is a rules section. It is telling you how to use your wizard.

Canaan wrote:Um that is a rules section. It is telling you how to use your wizard.

I agree, the area in the book where this is stated is defending why sorcerers have chaos armor. It specifically says that the spellcaster can wear armor and shields just like champions of chaos.

It is clearly stated in the designers notes for WoC on the GW website that the sorcerers may take shields.

Sigh.

fazz wrote:It is clearly stated in the designers notes for WoC on the GW website that the sorcerers may take shields.

Sigh.

But on this page, it specifically says that sorcerers can not use magic shields:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=400023&pIndex=1&aId=10100004&start=2

Now Im really confused.

The link doesn't work for me, but I am guessing it is the FAQ for the old Chaos mortals book.

Canaan wrote:Um that is a rules section. It is telling you how to use your wizard.

It describes the unusual characteristics of chaos sorcerers but no where in that section does it state that they can be equiped with shields even though they normally cannot be equipped with them. For the book to override the BRB it needs to have language indicated that it is.

On a side note, only official FAQs can really be used to determine intent from the developers.

Is the same as Vampires.

the Magic Item list specifically states Vampires and Necromancers may select pieces of Magic Armour, despite (without a bloodline power) the choice to take a mundane equivalent.

However the Warriors of Chaos Book does not have that statement or anything similar to that statement.

So then, at this point I only have one question.
Why would it say that chaos sorcs can use magic armor AND SHIELDS?

Because “Sorcerer” has two meanings- one of which is any Chaos model that casts spells. Which can include things like Daemon Princes, Exalted Champions with the Book of Secrets, and special characters.

The particular section in question is talking about the use of magic by chaos in general, not just the specific unit from the army list called a "Chaos Sorcerer".

Ok then by that logic the chaos sorcerer is indeed a sorcerer as described in this section. Wherin it states a sorcerer can use magic armor and shields. Correct? Or am I missing something?
I know this is pretty pointless. You guys will see it your way and we will see it our way. Until an official FAQ comes out it is pretty pointless to argue either way I suppose.

Please note that I’m not sure if I count as “you guys”. My initial take was that it definitely wasn’t allowed, based on what I perceive as ambiguity in the rule, and the precedent set by the previous codex. Presently I’ve started to lean more towards your perspective, and am really on the fence. I do hope they FAQ it to make it 100% clear.

I don't think it's pointless to discuss; I think both points of view have their merits, and it's important for people to know about the issue and be conversant with the opposing side so they're not caught by surprise or annoyed if they run into an opponent who plays it differently.

The wording no where states that they can select magic shields from the magic items section. it states "Sorcerers are unusual in that they wear chaos armor and use magic shields and magic armor just like other champions of chaos." They are making a statement that describes the differences between chaos sorcerers and other wizards. No where in that statement does it give them permission to select a magic shield even though they normally cannot select one.

So I guess saying that they wear it is saying that they arent alowed to wear it?
It really makes no mind to me. I play WoC but wouldnt give my sorcs shields in the 1st place. However Im sure there are those who would.
The problem is they describe sorcs using specificly magic shields in a rules section.

And in the sentence immediately preceding it, they tell you that a “sorcerer” is any chaos model which can cast spells. The fact that those two sentences are right next to each other is what makes some folks think that shield comment is meant as a catch-all for the other guys.

There is a period between right? I dont have my codex on me.

Actually, by logical analysis, it does.

A=B
B=C
A=C

All Chaos Sorcerors are sorcerors
All sorcerors are shield users (may use magic shields)
All Chaos Sorcerors are shield users (may use magic shields)

Is this sufficient to overcome the normal limitations?
I believe so and would have no problem with any WoC player equipping their Chaos Sorceror with a magic shield.

jmurph wrote:
All sorcerors are shield users (may use magic shields)

This is incorrect. No where does it indicate that they are shield users or that they all have the option to take a magic shield. Premise 2 should be

Some sorcerers are shield users (may use magic shields)

This will require you to add premise 3 which is:

Models that have the option to take a mundane shield can also take a magic shield.

which give the conclusion

Those sorcerers that can take a mundane shield can take a magic shield.

Ok, but now you are adding words to the codex.

That’s part of the ambiguity. Both of them added a word. Jmurph added “all”, and negativemoney added “some”. Part of the problem is that the army book uses neither. One sentence gives a very broad definition of “sorcerer” which includes several different types of models with very different capabilities and equipment options. The immediate next sentence makes a broad statement about the fact that “sorcerers” can use armor and shields and still cast spells.

I doubt a rules boy email would help?

Not for the purposes of this discussion, at least, for two reasons.

1. Rules boys emails aren’t printed in a nice book with GW’s logo on them for you to show your opponent at an event.
2. Their track record for inconsistency and illogic has been pretty terrible for the nine years I’ve been playing and participating on online discussions.

There have been some indications in the last few months that (on the 40k side in the US, at least) GW is trying to improve consistency from the Rules Boys (now “boy” in the US), which is nice for impartial third-party resolution of a dispute in your local group, but doesn’t actually tell you what the designers were thinking, and even if it did, doesn’t resolve the problem of how to resolve the issue in a pick up or tournament game with a stranger.

Since we’re mostly strangers from around the world on this board, the YMTC forums are intended to help us hash out what the rules actually say and try to understand them better, to help us resolve issues better locally. For friendly games with people you know well, you’re rarely going to need to wrangle as much as we do online. But it helps a lot in terms of understanding and being able to communicate about these issues with strangers when you play against them.

Generally speaking, in those situations your best bet is to discuss it before the game, ask the event organizer before the tournament, and hope for the FAQ.

Negativemonkey: I think you assume too much into the rule. The book reads:
<quote>
The term 'Sorceror' is used to describe Wizards who follow the Chaos Gods. Sorcerors are unusual in that they wear Chaos armor and use magic shields just like other Champions of Chaos.
</quote>

Notice it doesn't say some. Its says Sorcerors which was just defined in the previous sentence to describe "Wizards who follow the Chaos Gods". Thus Wizards who follow the Chaos Gods wear Chaos armor and use magic shields.

My initial logical analysis stands, I think.