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Yup
It really cannot be read any other way.

jsmurph, the word all is never mentioned in the rules and is something that you have just added in. Also it says that they use not that they can purchase from the magic item list. In order for someone to purchase that item they need to be able to first take a mundane item of the same armor type.

In this situation there is no provision for that to happen so a chaos sorcerer or an exalted sorcerer would not be able to select a shield from the magic armor list.

If I say you can use my pen to write something down; what does that mean? Does it mean you have access to my pen?

I typed the language directly from the book. I have corrected my post to remove the extraneous all. Same result.

Your statement is the basic rule which governs unless superceded by an army specific rule (see also Vampire Counts). The rule in WoC says that "Sorcerors ... use magic shields." Chaos sorcerors may use magic shields (contrary to the normal rule) despite not having the option to take a normal shield because the army book tells us this.

Is your argument is that they may use them but not purchase them?

Canaan wrote:If I say you can use my pen to write something down; what does that mean? Does it mean you have access to my pen?

It just means that if I had the option to possess your pen I can write with it. How ever your statement indicates to me that your pen might be in your car or even lost. There is no way to tell from your statement that I can actually take your pen as you only give me permission to use.

jmurph wrote:Your statement is the basic rule which governs unless superceded by an army specific rule (see also Vampire Counts).

I completely agree with that. The Vampire Counts rules explicitly state they may select armor and shields even though they normally cannot. This is a clear difference to the Sorcerer description in the Warriors of Chaos Book.

jmurph wrote:Chaos sorcerors may use magic shields (contrary to the normal rule) despite not having the option to take a normal shield because the army book tells us this.

Once again you are adding words that are not there. No where does it states it overrides the rules in the BRB regarding magic armor.

It does not have to state it explicitly. A rule may implicitly supersede another. The rule for Chaos sorcerors states they may wear armor and use shields. Do you disagree with this? If so, do you believe Chaos sorcerors may not wear armor? Why? Use shields (notice I said nothing about selecting magical shields....)? Why?

The WoC book general section on magic defines a Sorcerer as any chaos Wizard (which the main rulebook defines as any model which casts spells). This means that a Sorcerer includes the Chaos Sorcerer and Exalted Sorcerer units, also Daemon Princes, Exalted Champions and Chaos Lords with the Book of Secrets, and any Special Character who casts spells. This is a very broad category. The immediate next sentence states that sorcerers are unusual in that they wear chaos armor, magic armor, and magic shields.

This creates a contradiction between the general statement on page 106, and the specific prohibition from the main rulebook on a character taking magic armor or a magical shield if he does not have access to the mundane equivalent.

Now, if you read the statement about sorcerers and magic shields and armor as a general catch-all not meant to violate the rulebook prohibition, then you break no rule. A Chaos Lord or Exalted Champ with a Book of Secrets can take a magic shield or magic armor and still cast in it, because he has the option for the mundane equivalent AND has a rule saying he can still cast while wearing it. A Daemon Prince (who is a sorcerer) cannot take a magic shield or armor, because he lacks the mundane option. A Chaos Sorcerer or Exalted Sorcerer can take magic armor and still cast in it (as he has the appropriate rule and the mundane option), but can't take a magic shield as he doesn't have the option for the mundane equivalent.

At least that's one way to read it. And, based on its immediate proximity to the statement about sorcerers and magic armor & shields, it seems to me that it might be the intent.

The counter argument is the one you've offered- that the language is broad, and might be intended to be all-inclusive, despite GW having left out the word "all". Of course, that might have been left out just to prevent people from trying to take magic shields with their daemon princes.

I'm really not sure which is the right interpretation. A lot of folks hold to the maxim that in such a situation, it's best to err on the side of the less powerful interpretation, to avoid the possibility of taking an unintended advantage.

You make a good point Mannahin, and that is that according to the MoC definitions, if one argues that a Chaos sorceror can take a magic shield, one must also argue that a Daemon Prince can take one as well!

But people seem to be missing my point and that is that Chaos sorcerors (and Daemon Princes) may USE a magic shield. That is what the rule says. However, I agreed with NM that they have no option to TAKE a shield.

And I agree with the maxim of erring on the side of caution for oneself but also usually allow maximum leniency with others. So, my WoC sorcs do not carry shields, but I would not object to playing an opponent who did.

That seems like a fair compromise on this issue.

Um, isn't the Daemon Prince with a shield argument made moot by the fact that the Daemon Prince doesn't have the option to magic tiems AT ALL? Correct me if I'm worng, but he doesn't actually have a magic item allowance, only an allowance for gifts, yes?

Manfred von Drakken wrote:Um, isn't the Daemon Prince with a shield argument made moot by the fact that the Daemon Prince doesn't have the option to magic tiems AT ALL? Correct me if I'm worng, but he doesn't actually have a magic item allowance, only an allowance for gifts, yes?

That is correct. So the Daemon Prince comparison is not a very good one.

Here is something else we are not focusing on in the text on page 106 of the army book. After stating the line about how Chaos Sorcerers "wear chaos armour and use magic shields or magic armor" we see this:

"This can make them (sorcerers) formidable close combat opponents as well as masters of the Magic phase - a combination that is rare indeed in the armies of lesser mortals."

This statement tells us that sorcerers/wizards carrying magical armor and/or shields is "rare" in lesser mortal armies. This infers that is somewhat common in WoC armies.

So if the intent is that sorcerers using magical armor and shields is to be more common in WoC armies and sorcerers in WoC armies are meant to be more "formidable" at close combat because of this special access to equipment why would GW restrict sorcerers from taking shields (thus negating the entire statement/idea)?

The intent is for sorcerers to be better than other wizards in close combat BECAUSE of their access to normally off-limit pieces of equipment.

NOTE: a response of "chaos sorcerers are better than other wizards in close combats because of their stat lines" is irrelevant to the text in the book and the subject at hand. The book doesn't say that Chaos Sorcerers are more formidable because they are stronger or trained in combat. It cites the equipment as the advantage.

MascisMan, Nothing in the rules gives you permission to violate the rule set forth in the BRB. In the VC book it explicity states that you cane give them shields and armor even though they normally cannot have it. This language is missing from the Chaos book and is present in every case where you can do this.

Negativemoney wrote:MascisMan, Nothing in the rules gives you permission to violate the rule set forth in the BRB. In the VC book it explicity states that you cane give them shields and armor even though they normally cannot have it. This language is missing from the Chaos book and is present in every case where you can do this.

So, "wear chaos armour and use magic shields or magic armor" is not explicitly saying Sorcerers can wear magic armor and magic shields?

Listen, I'm not saying anyone is right and wrong. But to state that the WoC book doesn't explicitly state that Sorcerers wear/use shields is wrong IMO.

It does not say they can violate the rules set forth in the BRB regarding the 'purchase' not the 'use' of magic Armor and Shields. If they have the option to Purchase then they have the option to use. It does not work the other way around.

Wearing and being able to select are too different things. As you pointed out a DP has no option to take magic items, but he is classified as a sorceror and thus can use magic armor and shields. Unfortunately, he has no option to take any, so it is largely a useless ability. Chaos Sorcs have an option to take armor (chaos armor), but not shields. So they are more formidable than most wizards (who can't take armor or shields). However, although they can use magic shields, they have no option to take them.

Bingo jmurph!!!

jmurph wrote:Wearing and being able to select are too different things. As you pointed out a DP has no option to take magic items, but he is classified as a sorceror and thus can use magic armor and shields. Unfortunately, he has no option to take any, so it is largely a useless ability. Chaos Sorcs have an option to take armor (chaos armor), but not shields. So they are more formidable than most wizards (who can't take armor or shields). However, although they can use magic shields, they have no option to take them.

Then the fluff is dumb because a chimpanzee can "use" a shield.......

Yes, it is dumb. It also is inconsistent with models like the Champion of Tzeentch on Disc who has a shield. But that's how they wrote it. slowed. Much like the Eye of the Gods mandatory challenge rule.

Essentially, GW thinks if you want to play Chaos and are not playing daemons, you need to be punished.