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so for deploying my HQ in a dawn of war scenario with retinue (Tau crisis suit with 2 body guards) am I able to deploy the whole unit as the HQ choice or do i have to split them up? What about tyranid hive tyrants with tyrant guards?

Retinues and the character for which they are purchased count as a single unit.

That's one place where older codexes have a slight advantage...

Marines could deploy a captain and his command squad in DoW deployment, as it would be a "single unit from the HQ selection." They could not deploy them in a transport though.

A Marine Captain and his Command Squad are not a single unit.

Nor are they the same FOC selection any more. The Command Squad simply doesn't use a FOC slot.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:Marines could deploy a captain and his command squad in DoW deployment, as it would be a "single unit from the HQ selection." They could not deploy them in a transport though.

Why exactly do you say this? I'm interested in seeing your reasoning because it doesn't seem to fit to me though because an IC attached to a unit is still two units, otherwhise I could attach my librarian to some sternguard and start with them on the table.

If your argument is because you get the free command squad for taking a captain and they aren't a force organisation slot they are still a seperate unit and would count as a whole unit for Dawn of War whether with the captain or not.

I think only proper retinues that a character can't leave unless the whole unit dies would be valid.

Yup. They only count as a single unit if their rules actually say that they count as a single unit, or the squad is specifically listed as a retinue.

I agree with insaniak. This has been discussed in length before.

G

Drunkspleen wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:Marines could deploy a captain and his command squad in DoW deployment, as it would be a "single unit from the HQ selection." They could not deploy them in a transport though.

Why exactly do you say this? I'm interested in seeing your reasoning because it doesn't seem to fit to me though because an IC attached to a unit is still two units, otherwhise I could attach my librarian to some sternguard and start with them on the table.

If your argument is because you get the free command squad for taking a captain and they aren't a force organisation slot they are still a seperate unit and would count as a whole unit for Dawn of War whether with the captain or not.

I think only proper retinues that a character can't leave unless the whole unit dies would be valid.

My argument is that a character in a command squad are a single unit. The exact wording in the DoW deployment is "...a maximum of two units from his troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections..." An IC deployed in a command squad are a single unit, from the HQ selections, and so would qualify.

from the Independent characters section "...an independant character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them." Further, from the section "independent characters and shooting," there is a line that states "Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit." If the IC is considered part of a unit, then him+rest of unit = a single unit. Since the description for dawn of war states that you may "deploy...up to one unit from your HQ selections," an independent character + a command squad deployed together would be considered a single unit.

This would not work with a librarian + sternguard as the sternguard are not purchased through the HQ selections.

That's my reasoning anyways. Since it didn't say that an IC counts as a separate unit at any point during deployment, only that he is considered "joining a unit" which is later clarified with "an IC thats has joined a unit is considered part of that unit" there is no reason to believe that he is considered a separate unit if deployed with the command squad, which is the only scenario that would violate the DoW deployment conditions. Note that they didn't say anything to do with FoC slots, which would allow a marine player to deploy four combat squads and a guard player practically their entire army. They said "a single unit," and joined=part of=one unit = can be deployed together in DoW in my books.

Feel free to prove me wrong though, that's just my interpretation of the rules.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:Since the description for dawn of war states that you may "deploy...up to one unit from your HQ selections," an independent character + a command squad deployed together would be considered a single unit.

The problem being that you don't deploy them together. Specifically:

"...an independant character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

That's not saying that they're deployed together. It's saying that when the character is deployed he can be placed with the unit and considered to be joined.

So, you deploy the squad, and then when you deploy the character, he can be considered joined if he is in coherency.

That won't work for DoW, because once you've deployed the squad, you've deployed your single HQ unit.

insaniak wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:Since the description for dawn of war states that you may "deploy...up to one unit from your HQ selections," an independent character + a command squad deployed together would be considered a single unit.

The problem being that you don't deploy them together. Specifically:

"...an independant character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

That's not saying that they're deployed together. It's saying that when the character is deployed he can be placed with the unit and considered to be joined.

So, you deploy the squad, and then when you deploy the character, he can be considered joined if he is in coherency.

That won't work for DoW, because once you've deployed the squad, you've deployed your single HQ unit.

I disagree, it says "may begin the game already with a unit" not "may join a unit already deployed." Since deployment is no longer done one unit at a time, you can throw down your two troops units, your command squad, shove your IC in there, and go "there are my two units from my troops selection, and one unit from my HQ selection." Once deployed, it still fits "maximum two units, maximum one unit."

That's also only if you don't take that quote to mean that he IS deployed 'with' them, as being deployed in coherency = with = one unit = deployed "with" as far as I'm concerned.

insaniak wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

The problem being that you don't deploy them together. Specifically:

"...an independant character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

That's not saying that they're deployed together. It's saying that when the character is deployed he can be placed with the unit and considered to be joined.

So, you deploy the squad, and then when you deploy the character, he can be considered joined if he is in coherency.

That won't work for DoW, because once you've deployed the squad, you've deployed your single HQ unit.

Which also causes delicious problems with Shrike. He gives any unit he joins Infiltrate... but as he can't join them until he deploys with them- and they can't deploy in an infiltrated position until he joins them to give them infiltrate, let alone hang around until the deploy infiltrators phase of deployment... Excedrin time baby.

So you can also say deploy a Chapter Master attached to a Chaplain right? But just it can't go outside the HQ selections for some generic reason, what about the other way around, if an IC attaches to a troops selection is he now part of that troops selection allowing you to deploy him with them and not count as deploying a HQ unit?

An IC connected to a unit is still an IC and still counts as a seperate deployed unit. it's just operating as a member of that unit.

The example given in the dawn of war deployment rules clearly explains this.

Player B then deploys a unit of Troops, already embarked into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of Troops). He then deploys an independent character from his HQ, joining the unit embarked in the transport.

There is still an order or flow to deployment, and when you deploy an IC into another unit, that unit has to already be deployed, you are just starting the IC attached, they are not a single unit.

Drunkspleen wrote:So you can also say deploy a Chapter Master attached to a Chaplain right? But just it can't go outside the HQ selections for some generic reason, what about the other way around, if an IC attaches to a troops selection is he now part of that troops selection allowing you to deploy him with them and not count as deploying a HQ unit?

An IC connected to a unit is still an IC and still counts as a seperate deployed unit. it's just operating as a member of that unit.

The example given in the dawn of war deployment rules clearly explains this.

Player B then deploys a unit of Troops, already embarked into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of Troops). He then deploys an independent character from his HQ, joining the unit embarked in the transport.

There is still an order or flow to deployment, and when you deploy an IC into another unit, that unit has to already be deployed, you are just starting the IC attached, they are not a single unit.

If you attached him to a troops unit, then it is not a "unit from the troops selection" now is it, its from the troops AND HQ selection, which I would count as both a unit from troops AND a unit from hq taking up both slots.

Nowhere in the rulebook do I see independent characters described as "separate but attached units." There is only the line that I found where it says "an IC that has joined a unit is considered part of that unit." That sounds like one unit to me. If you find the section that differentiates the two I will gladly concede this argument, but going on what I have here part of unit = one unit.

Also, there is no longer a description of deployment "flow," as there was during 4th edition. That models are set up in a sequential order is only because that is physically how one must do it.

Breton illustrated my point brilliantly with Shrike. His "see, but remain unseen" rule is clearly intended to be USED, and not disallowed by the rules. How can a unit be his squad, if he does not deploy simultaneously with them? If Shrike is allowed to deploy simultaneously with a unit "out of sync," so to speak, with how they would be deployed should Shrike not join the the squad until after they were already on the table, then why does this not apply to a captain and command squad deploying together?

"Troops and HQ units that can infiltrate can do so, as long as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table"
Note that it says at the end of deployment, implying that it is once you've finished deploying everything that you check that conditions are met. One, two units of troops, check. Captain plus command squad for one unit of HQs...check. 2 TRPS + 1 HQ = maximums satisfied.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:If you attached him to a troops unit, then it is not a "unit from the troops selection" now is it,

If the character becomes a part of the unit, then no, it's a unit from the Troops selection.

It would only be both Troops and HQ if it said that they combined to form a single unit, rather than stating that the character becomes a part of the existing unit.


That is, of course, if you assume that they can be deployed at the same time.

Also, there is no longer a description of deployment "flow," as there was during 4th edition. That models are set up in a sequential order is only because that is physically how one must do it.

But that sequential order is exactly what stops you from deploying the both of them. You can only deploy one HQ unit. So once you've deployed a HQ unit, grabbing another one and deploying it into the first is breaking the one only rule.

Of course, if one wanted to be really pedantic, it could then possibly be argued that you can deploy the IC with the unit, but only so long as you place him before you have placed the entire unit...

Breton illustrated my point brilliantly with Shrike. His "see, but remain unseen" rule is clearly intended to be USED, and not disallowed by the rules. How can a unit be his squad, if he does not deploy simultaneously with them?

Shrike has been brought up before, with the general consensus from discussions I've seen being that the rules do not, in fact, allow him to be deployed with a unit but that it's an unintentional glitch.

Where the DoW IC/Squad thing really just comes down to an interpretation on when they can be joined, joining a squad to Shrike requires you to break the deployment rules. It's a slightly different issue, as it's not a case of Shrike being allowed to join the unit, it's about having to hold back a unit from the normal deployment sequence in order to join it to Shrike so that it gains the ability to be held back from the normal deployment sequence...

Note that it says at the end of deployment, implying that it is once you've finished deploying everything that you check that conditions are met.

Meaning, IMO, that regardless of whether they're deployed regularly or as Infiltrators, you can only have the 1 HQ and two troops, as opposed to deploying the HQ and two Troops, and then plonking down some Infiltrators....

Not that you can deploy multiple HQ units and count them as one.

Shrike is actually a pretty bad example, by the same token a RAW reading of Kor'sarro Khan has him grant a useless outlank move to most units because strictly speaking the outflank rule that it grants says you need the scouts or infiltrate special rule to take advantage of it.

These characters require some further rulebending that isn't explicitly written at times, they are an exception, rather than the norm.

Also, the main line you are relying on is "independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets"

It's clearly describing one specific function which is shooting, It's not at all related to deployment, where we know that the independent character and seperate unit are just that, seperate units.

He can begin already with a unit, but that's just an attachment, he is still a seperate unit taking advantage of his special rules to attach.

Pirate, there is some inconsistency with your argument which I find defeats your position.

I apologize if I've misstated your position, but as I understand it, you feel that:
1) An IC can attach to an HQ unit pre-game and thus deploy as "a single HQ unit."
2) You believe this is different than the example used in the rulebook, where an HQ IC attaches to a troop unit, thus counting as 1 HQ and 1 Troop.

This distinction you've made makes no sense. In #1, you're saying the IC isn't a unit at the time he deploys because he's joined another unit, an HQ unit. In #2, you're saying that the IC does still count as an HQ unit. In my reading of the rules I've found no basis for such a distinction.

Your position is untenable unless you can quote some rule to support the distinction you've made. There are only two possible ways to interpret this issue:
1) The IC, because he joined a unit pre-game, does not count as anything, but only the unit he joined counts.
2) The IC counts as an HQ even though he joined a unit.

The example given in the rulebook clearly supports #2. There's no reason for claiming that what matters is the type of unit the HQ has joined.

Agree with Insaniak and the deadly digger.

deadlygopher wrote:Pirate, there is some inconsistency with your argument which I find defeats your position.

I apologize if I've misstated your position, but as I understand it, you feel that:
1) An IC can attach to an HQ unit pre-game and thus deploy as "a single HQ unit."
2) You believe this is different than the example used in the rulebook, where an HQ IC attaches to a troop unit, thus counting as 1 HQ and 1 Troop.

This distinction you've made makes no sense. In #1, you're saying the IC isn't a unit at the time he deploys because he's joined another unit, an HQ unit. In #2, you're saying that the IC does still count as an HQ unit. In my reading of the rules I've found no basis for such a distinction.

Your position is untenable unless you can quote some rule to support the distinction you've made. There are only two possible ways to interpret this issue:
1) The IC, because he joined a unit pre-game, does not count as anything, but only the unit he joined counts.
2) The IC counts as an HQ even though he joined a unit.

The example given in the rulebook clearly supports #2. There's no reason for claiming that what matters is the type of unit the HQ has joined.

My position on this is that if you deploy an IC with a troops squad, then you can no longer say that that unit is "from the troops selection," as part of it is "from the HQ selection." I said I would count it as one of each because it would be a unit from BOTH the "troops selection" AND from the "HQ selection," so you cannot just say it's a unit of one or the other for the purposes of satisfying the rules.
As an example, say you're going into an event that allows you to take "up to one phone, and up to one camera." If you have a phone that is ALSO a camera, then they would look at it and say "well there is your phone, and that also counts as your camera" and not let you bring in an additional camera since you already have one. A pretty inane example, but that was what I was trying to convey with my point. It's different than bringing in a dedicated phone and a camera that...i dunno two pictures at the same time? Analogy broke down, but I think you can see my point. If the unit counts as both, it takes up both slots. If it counts as one or the other, it only takes up one.

Insaniak I quoted that section to show that it implied that you check at the END of deployment, rather than during. Deployment in 5th ed is now a <plonk> there you go rather than a unit by unit as it was before, so attaching an IC to a squad makes him a single unit by the time you're checking.

Also note that it in the section where it mentions deploying the IC it gives no mention of any order. If you deploy him and the squad simultaneously, at no point would they be two separate units.

Another part of the rulebook that implies they are one unit comes in "independent characters and assault," where it states "Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined."

Say you're deploying your command squad. You place down the apoth, and one veteran, then stick down your IC, then stick down the remaining three veterans. There are no rules for how you have to deploy, only how it must look once you have deployed, so there is absolutely nothing to suggest that this is disallowed. At no point in that was there two separate units, as the IC was placed along with the rest of the unit. There is also no single rule to suggest that that unit is treated as two separate but attached units, even though they were purchased separately.

I'll summarize my arguments real quick, as I think there's been some confusion in what I'm trying to say

1) There is nothing in the rules to say that you cannot simultaneously deploy an IC and a command squad
2) There is nothing to suggest that an IC and a command squad count as two units when deployed together
3) There is nothing to suggest that while deploying an IC and a command squad together they count as two separate units for any length of time.
4) Point 3) is irrelevant anyways, as there is no longer a forced sequential ordering for deployment. If there is no specific ordering, then all that matters is what is sitting on the table at the end of deployment. If at the end, command squad + IC = one unit, then it satisfies your "maximum one HQ unit" requirement

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:Insaniak I quoted that section to show that it implied that you check at the END of deployment, rather than during.

What you quoted simply shows that Infiltrators count towards the unit limit. It doesn't impose an 'end of phase' check. There is nothing to suggest that the limits only apply at the end of deployment. They simply apply when deploying.

Also note that it in the section where it mentions deploying the IC it gives no mention of any order. If you deploy him and the squad simultaneously, at no point would they be two separate units.

Yes, I already pointed that out... Although after thinking it through, I now disagree... see below...

Another part of the rulebook that implies they are one unit comes in "independent characters and assault,"

Which has nothing to do with deployment.

We're all in agreement (I think) that they count as a single unit once the IC is joined to the squad. It's simply whether or not they can be joined in the first place that is in doubt.

At no point in that was there two separate units, as the IC was placed along with the rest of the unit.

They're two seperate units at the time you pick the IC up from your carry case.

During the actual act of deploying them (ie: picking them up from off the table and placing them onto the table) they are seperate units. They only become a single unit once they are all actually on the table.

So, if you are grabbing two seperate units in order to deploy them, you are breaking the rule that says you can only deploy one. The fact that they become one single unit once they are on the table is irrelevant... you simply never get that far, because you're not allowed to grab the two units in the first place.

1) There is nothing in the rules to say that you cannot simultaneously deploy an IC and a command squad

Whether or not they are deployed simultaneously, they are two seperate units until they are actually on the table.
To get them on the table, you have to deploy them.
You cannot deploy more than one HQ unit.

The other 3 points then become irrelevant

insaniak wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:Insaniak I quoted that section to show that it implied that you check at the END of deployment, rather than during.

What you quoted simply shows that Infiltrators count towards the unit limit. It doesn't impose an 'end of phase' check. There is nothing to suggest that the limits only apply at the end of deployment. They simply apply when deploying.

It doesn't impose it no, but it implies that the check is end of phase.

insaniak wrote:

Also note that it in the section where it mentions deploying the IC it gives no mention of any order. If you deploy him and the squad simultaneously, at no point would they be two separate units.

Yes, I already pointed that out... Although after thinking it through, I now disagree... see below...

Another part of the rulebook that implies they are one unit comes in "independent characters and assault,"

Which has nothing to do with deployment.

We're all in agreement (I think) that they count as a single unit once the IC is joined to the squad. It's simply whether or not they can be joined in the first place that is in doubt.

It says that he can start the game as part of the squad if he is deployed with the squad.

insaniak wrote:

At no point in that was there two separate units, as the IC was placed along with the rest of the unit.

They're two seperate units at the time you pick the IC up from your carry case.

During the actual act of deploying them (ie: picking them up from off the table and placing them onto the table) they are seperate units. They only become a single unit once they are all actually on the table.

So, if you are grabbing two seperate units in order to deploy them, you are breaking the rule that says you can only deploy one. The fact that they become one single unit once they are on the table is irrelevant... you simply never get that far, because you're not allowed to grab the two units in the first place.

So then how is this rule consistent with combat squads? They are a single unit when 'removing them from the case' but they BECOME two units when you decide to split them during deployment. Likewise an HQ+Command squad, you agree, becomes a single unit when deployed with the command squad. One is one unit that becomes two, and by your reasoning the second is two units that becomes one.

This is where we are disagreeing. You are saying that at no point during the deployment can there be more than the maximum number of units, whereas I say that what really matters is that by the end of deployment there are no more than the maximum number of units. I don't think that there's enough in the rulebook to support the former, thereby leaving the latter as the way deployment should be considered. Unlike in 4th ed, there is no specific ordering or sequencing defined for deployment, there is simply deployment.

insaniak wrote:

1) There is nothing in the rules to say that you cannot simultaneously deploy an IC and a command squad

Whether or not they are deployed simultaneously, they are two seperate units until they are actually on the table.
To get them on the table, you have to deploy them.
You cannot deploy more than one HQ unit.

The other 3 points then become irrelevant

on table = deployed
off table = not deployed
deploying them simultaneously deploys them as a single unit. If you put the command squad down on the table, the stick the IC in there with them, you never deployed a second unit, you only deployed another member into that one unit. Likewise, if you deploy the IC then the command squad with him, it is only ever one unit on the table unless you deploy them separately.

The rules say that you are allowed to deploy "up to one unit." If there is only one unit on the table, this satisfies the rules. There is no intermediate phase where there are two units causing the game to explode. You stick them on the table together, and if your opponent goes "you deployed two hqs" you say "no, it says I can deploy one unit. that is one unit. see;one...not two, but one"

Of course you don't be a dick about it, but my point still holds. We both concede that on the table, they are one unit. When they are together, they are a single unit, from HQ, and thus you are good to go.

Say an opponent deploys one tactical squad. He then deploys the other tactical squad combat squaded. You say you can't do that. He says "but its still two troops!" You point him to the rules, and showing him that he was wrong, it is two units not two troop selections. He says "oh sorry" and puts his two combat squads together into a single unit. He now has two units on the board, satisfying the requirements, and the game can go on.

This is no different. Should you put the IC and the command squad separately, your opponent goes "you can't do that" and you go "oh gak" and stuff them together into one unit. You and I both agree they count as one unit, so there's no debates there. You now have one unit of HQ, so you satisfy the requirements, and the game can continue.

I disagreed with Insaniak... then he changed his mind slightly.

Now I agree. (They count as two units until actually on the table.)

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:on table = deployed
off table = not deployed
deploying them simultaneously deploys them as a single unit. If you put the command squad down on the table, the stick the IC in there with them, you never deployed a second unit, you only deployed another member into that one unit. Likewise, if you deploy the IC then the command squad with him, it is only ever one unit on the table unless you deploy them separately.

I can't see how anyone can disagree with this, and this is how I play. Never thought there was any disagreement till I read this thread.

coredump wrote:I disagreed with Insaniak... then he changed his mind slightly.

Now I agree. (They count as two units until actually on the table.)

But this is my point, it is entirely irrelevant what they count as off the table, as off the table they are not deployed! Once on the table, they are a single unit, thus you only deploy a single unit, and thus you don't violate the DoW deployment rules.

You didn't answer my point, Pirate.

You're arguing that:
1) An HQ (IC) joins a troop pre-deployment, and that counts as one HQ and on troop.
2) An HQ (IC) joins another HQ squad pre-deployment, and that counts as one HQ.

Where do the rules support this distinction? Why does the IC lose his status as "1 HQ" in #2 but not #1. The fact that it makes sense to you, or that you're willing to recognize the difference as valid, doesn't mean the rules support it.

This is where your argument fails, and where the example provided by GW gives guidance.

I had a nice, long reply all typed out, addressing this argument point by point, but decided in the end it was just waffle and deleted it, as the crux of it is really just this:

The rules say that you are allowed to deploy "up to one unit." If there is only one unit on the table, this satisfies the rules.

You have a rule saying that you're only allowed to walk through a given door once.
You walk through, go back out the way you came, and then walk through again.

Does the fact that you have wound up on the correct side of the doorway mean that you have satisfied the rule?

I say not. You've walked through the door 3 times. The fact that the end result is the same as walking through once is irrelvant. You have still broken the rule in order to get there.

An IC joining a Troop isn't the same as an IC joining a squad bought for him. The Command Squad wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the Captain, and does not take up an HQ slot.

UltraPrime wrote: The Command Squad wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the Captain, and does not take up an HQ slot.

Whether or not it takes up a FOC slot is irrelevant for DoW deployment. Whether or not they are a unit is all that counts.

UltraPrime wrote:An IC joining a Troop isn't the same as an IC joining a squad bought for him. The Command Squad wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the Captain, and does not take up an HQ slot.

So? Where in the Dawn of War rules (or anywhere else) does it say this matters?

The example given shows an HQ attached to a troop counts as both a troop and an HQ. So you think it's different if the HQ joins another HQ? Fine, where's the rule?

deadlygopher wrote:The example given shows an HQ attached to a troop counts as both a troop and an HQ. So you think it's different if the HQ joins another HQ? Fine, where's the rule?

Main rulebook, page 48 - 'Retinues'

Doesn't apply to SM Command Squads, as they're not a retinue.

A retinue is a unit that is specifically listed as a retinue, or that has a rule stating that they and the IC for which they are purchased are counted as a single unit.

SM Command Squads have neither of those. They are simply an additional unit that can only be purchased if you have the requisite character in your army list.