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insaniak wrote:Doesn't apply to SM Command Squads, as they're not a retinue.

A retinue is a unit that is specifically listed as a retinue, or that has a rule stating that they and the IC for which they are purchased are counted as a single unit.

SM Command Squads have neither of those. They are simply an additional unit that can only be purchased if you have the requisite character in your army list.

A Command Squad/Honour Guard is bought for a specific character. Where does it say they are not a single unit?

UltraPrime wrote:A Command Squad/Honour Guard is bought for a specific character. Where does it say they are not a single unit?

Pardon?

You don't need a rule saying that they're not a single unit.

They're a seperate choice on the army list... so what you need is a rule saying that they are a single unit.

Otherwise, they're purchased as a seperate unit, and therefore are a seperate unit.

deadlygopher wrote:You didn't answer my point, Pirate.

You're arguing that:
1) An HQ (IC) joins a troop pre-deployment, and that counts as one HQ and on troop.
2) An HQ (IC) joins another HQ squad pre-deployment, and that counts as one HQ.

Where do the rules support this distinction? Why does the IC lose his status as "1 HQ" in #2 but not #1. The fact that it makes sense to you, or that you're willing to recognize the difference as valid, doesn't mean the rules support it.

This is where your argument fails, and where the example provided by GW gives guidance.

I'm sorry, I thought I did answer this?
The important part of the DoW deployment is "one unit" and "from troops selection" or "from HQ selection." Deploying an IC with a squad of troops becomes one unit. However that unit is both "from troops selection" due to the troops and "from hq selection" due to the included IC. Once deployed, you count the units you have on the board.

Example:
Unit one: Troops
Unit two: Troops + HQ

How many units are there? Well two. How many units are there from the Troops selection? Two. How many Units are there from the HQ selection? Well one. Still only two units, but one counts as both.

Much like my camera-phone example. You have a camera and a camera-phone. How many cameras do you have? two. How many phones do you have? one. How many things do you have? Only two.

I think the confusion stems from you taking me to be meaning that you are counting the IC as a different unit in this instance. This is not what I'm saying, I'm saying that because of him you have to count that one unit twice.

insaniak wrote:I had a nice, long reply all typed out, addressing this argument point by point, but decided in the end it was just waffle and deleted it, as the crux of it is really just this:

The rules say that you are allowed to deploy "up to one unit." If there is only one unit on the table, this satisfies the rules.

You have a rule saying that you're only allowed to walk through a given door once.
You walk through, go back out the way you came, and then walk through again.

Does the fact that you have wound up on the correct side of the doorway mean that you have satisfied the rule?

I say not. You've walked through the door 3 times. The fact that the end result is the same as walking through once is irrelvant. You have still broken the rule in order to get there.

This is the crux of our disagreement. You think that the rule is the process. I think the rule is the result.

Due to the changes in deployment from 4th ed to 5th ed, I believe that the rules support my interpretation over yours.

Pulling this one out again: "Troops and HQ units that can infiltrate can do so, as long as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table."

Deploy troop squad one, troop squad two, and command squad. That is two troops and an HQ correct? Now you infiltrate Shrike in coherency with the command squad. The rules say you can do this, so long as at the end of deployment you have a maximum of one HQ unit and two Troops units, which you do.

Rule doesn't say you may pass through a door once. It says you may go through one door. Walking in and out of said door is still only going through one door.


edit: command squads and honour guards are not purchased "for" a unit per say (though you may intend this). The purchase of one allows the purchase of the other, and they are purchased separately. They are separate entities, unless you deploy them together. Retinues may only be deployed together with their IC. Separately purchased command squads MAY be deployed separately, or they MAY be deployed together. What is being debated here is that if you deploy them together, that is counted as only deploying one unit of HQ. Command squad != retinue

insaniak wrote:

UltraPrime wrote:A Command Squad/Honour Guard is bought for a specific character. Where does it say they are not a single unit?

Pardon?

You don't need a rule saying that they're not a single unit.

They're a seperate choice on the army list... so what you need is a rule saying that they are a single unit.

Otherwise, they're purchased as a seperate unit, and therefore are a seperate unit.

Granted, that is the norm. But in these cases they cannot be purchased without their parent character.

UltraPrime wrote:
Granted, that is the norm. But in these cases they cannot be purchased without their parent character.

So? I must be missing it, where is the rule that says this matters?

UltraPrime wrote:

insaniak wrote:

UltraPrime wrote:A Command Squad/Honour Guard is bought for a specific character. Where does it say they are not a single unit?

Pardon?

You don't need a rule saying that they're not a single unit.

They're a seperate choice on the army list... so what you need is a rule saying that they are a single unit.

Otherwise, they're purchased as a seperate unit, and therefore are a seperate unit.

Granted, that is the norm. But in these cases they cannot be purchased without their parent character.

Still doesn't mean they're purchased together though. Retinue typically means that you purchase them much like you would purchase say artificer armour, it's right there in the codex entry. Honour guard are a separate entry and are treated differently. This is important in CC, as the leader of a retinue is treated as an "upgrade character," and thus cannot be targeted in CC. A chapter master at the head of an honour guard, however, is counted as a separate unit during combat and can be singled out (though he reverts to being part of the squad once combat is over).

Think of them as less a retinue and more an unlockable squad.

Still doesn't mean they can't be deployed as a single unit though

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:The important part of the DoW deployment is "one unit" and "from troops selection" or "from HQ selection." Deploying an IC with a squad of troops becomes one unit.

I agree with you so far. But look, you've quoted the fatal flaw insaniak has been referencing - "selections" What do selections mean? Do they mean post-deployment units? Probably not. The plain meaning of "selections" seems to be listings from the codex.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:However that unit is both "from troops selection" due to the troops and "from hq selection" due to the included IC. Once deployed, you count the units you have on the board.

Example:
Unit one: Troops
Unit two: Troops + HQ

How many units are there? Well two. How many units are there from the Troops selection? Two. How many Units are there from the HQ selection? Well one. Still only two units, but one counts as both.

I agree with you. So do the rules.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Much like my camera-phone example. You have a camera and a camera-phone. How many cameras do you have? two. How many phones do you have? one. How many things do you have? Only two.

I think the confusion stems from you taking me to be meaning that you are counting the IC as a different unit in this instance. This is not what I'm saying, I'm saying that because of him you have to count that one unit twice.

Here's where I think you're breaking down. It doesn't matter whether the Troop + HQ unit once it hits the table. The problem with your argument is that you say that:
1) Troop + HQ = 1 unit, and counts as a troop and an HQ for Dawn of War purpose, AND
2) HQ + HQ = 1 units, and counts as one HQ for Dawn of War purposes.
-There's no reason in the rules why the IC should "count" for Dawn of War purposes in #1 but not #2. You need a rule to support this, because as it is your argument makes no sense. You're making a distinction not backed up by the rules.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:This is the crux of our disagreement. You think that the rule is the process. I think the rule is the result.

No, I think you follow what the rules say, and you, my friend, need a rule to support what you're trying to do.

In fact, "selections" is probably the most important word to this little problem. Selections is clearly a reference codex listings, from which you select. It's most certainly NOT a reference to units you already have deployed.

deadlygopher wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:The important part of the DoW deployment is "one unit" and "from troops selection" or "from HQ selection." Deploying an IC with a squad of troops becomes one unit.

I agree with you so far. But look, you've quoted the fatal flaw insaniak has been referencing - "selections" What do selections mean? Do they mean post-deployment units? Probably not. The plain meaning of "selections" seems to be listings from the codex.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:However that unit is both "from troops selection" due to the troops and "from hq selection" due to the included IC. Once deployed, you count the units you have on the board.

Example:
Unit one: Troops
Unit two: Troops + HQ

How many units are there? Well two. How many units are there from the Troops selection? Two. How many Units are there from the HQ selection? Well one. Still only two units, but one counts as both.

I agree with you. So do the rules.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Much like my camera-phone example. You have a camera and a camera-phone. How many cameras do you have? two. How many phones do you have? one. How many things do you have? Only two.

I think the confusion stems from you taking me to be meaning that you are counting the IC as a different unit in this instance. This is not what I'm saying, I'm saying that because of him you have to count that one unit twice.

Here's where I think you're breaking down. It doesn't matter whether the Troop + HQ unit once it hits the table. The problem with your argument is that you say that:
1) Troop + HQ = 1 unit, and counts as a troop and an HQ for Dawn of War purpose, AND
2) HQ + HQ = 1 units, and counts as one HQ for Dawn of War purposes.
-There's no reason in the rules why the IC should "count" for Dawn of War purposes in #1 but not #2. You need a rule to support this, because as it is your argument makes no sense. You're making a distinction not backed up by the rules.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:This is the crux of our disagreement. You think that the rule is the process. I think the rule is the result.

No, I think you follow what the rules say, and you, my friend, need a rule to support what you're trying to do.

"unit from troops selections" means that it is a unit that is selected from the troops section of your codex.
Troops+hq is a unit selected from BOTH the troops AND the hq sections of your codex, so would count as one of each.
hq+hq is a single unit selected from ONLY the hq selections, so counts as a unit from the hq selections, not two units from the hq selections.

Again my camera-phone analogy. The first (troops+hq) is a camera phone, and counts as a camera when you're counting how many cameras you have, and a phone when you're counting how many phones you have.
The second (hq+hq) is like two cameras taped together, which the rules say count as a single camera. Since the rules say it's one camera, when counting how many cameras you have you only have one camera.

Another example, that's a bit of a departure from this situation but still related, is Telion. Telion is bought separately from a unit of scouts, but the rules say that he is part of that unit (because he replaces the sergeant). Is that unit now two units of troops? Not it is only one, even though there are "two selections from troops" in it, it is still only one unit (because the rules say it is one unit), selected from troops.

deadlygopher wrote:In fact, "selections" is probably the most important word to this little problem. Selections is clearly a reference codex listings, from which you select. It's most certainly NOT a reference to units you already have deployed.

you're taking selections out of context now.

"one unit from HQ selections" not "one HQ selection"

The important part is thus the "one unit," the "HQ selections" just tells you where you can buy it from. If it just said "deploy HQ selections" you could deploy everything you bought from HQ, or if it said "one unit" you could deploy everything you could jam into that one unit.
"one unit of HQ selections" however, means that you can deploy only a single unit, comprised of only things you bought from the HQ section of your codex.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

deadlygopher wrote:In fact, "selections" is probably the most important word to this little problem. Selections is clearly a reference codex listings, from which you select. It's most certainly NOT a reference to units you already have deployed.

you're taking selections out of context now.

"one unit from HQ selections" not "one HQ selection"

The important part is thus the "one unit," the "HQ selections" just tells you where you can buy it from. If it just said "deploy HQ selections" you could deploy everything you bought from HQ, or if it said "one unit" you could deploy everything you could jam into that one unit.
"one unit of HQ selections" however, means that you can deploy only a single unit, comprised of only things you bought from the HQ section of your codex.

Ok.....

I take it you have no trouble acknowleding that "selections" references the codex listings, so for our purposes, let's briefly substitute the word "selections" for "codex listings."

Thus, "one unit from HQ codex listings" is what we can deploy in a Dawn of War battle initially.

Makes more sense now? The rule is NOT "one HQ unit." It's one HQ selection, or codex listing.

Dawn of War is COMPLETELY UNCONCERNED with how units combine pre-deployment or once they hit the table. It's tells you, you can have one HQ selection.

If I buy a farseer, that's an HQ selection.
If I buy some warlocks, that's an HQ selection.

It doesn't matter if I can combine them pre-deployment and drop them down as one HQ unit. It's two selections.

Since you're so apt to use your camera example. Let's say I have a box of cameras, and someone tells me, "you can make 1 camera selection." So, I take out two cameras and tape them together, as you yourself suggested. Have I made one selection? NO! I've made two, and just taped them together.

Does that help?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:This is the crux of our disagreement. You think that the rule is the process. I think the rule is the result.

That's the problem. You have yet to show anything that supports your narrower view of the rule.

The rule only specifies what can be deployed. You're choosing to ignore part of the meaning of that statement, in favour of the interpretation that allows you to do what you want.

I'm saying that you have to follow the entire rule. If the rule says that only one unit can be deployed, then only one unit can be deployed. You can't just ignore the rule during deployment and claim that it only applies afterwards.

Pulling this one out again: "Troops and HQ units that can infiltrate can do so, as long as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table."

Which, again, only means that if you're deploying Infiltrators you are still bound by the unit limits. It doesn't allow you to ignore the limit on what you can deploy.

Deploy troop squad one, troop squad two, and command squad. That is two troops and an HQ correct?

Fine so far.

Now you infiltrate Shrike in coherency with the command squad.

And there's where it comes unstuck. You have already deployed a HQ unit.
You are now trying to deploy another HQ unit.
The rules say that you can only deploy 1 HQ unit.
So Shrike, regardless of what might happen to him after he is one the board, can not be deployed, as doing so requires you to deploy a second HQ.

It owuld be akin to moving a model into BTB with an enemy model in the Movement phase, and claiming that you can ignore the 1" rule because you're going to charge in the Assault phase, and that would out them in BTB anyway...

You can't ignore a rule now because of something that will change later.

The rules say you can do this, so long as at the end of deployment you have a maximum of one HQ unit and two Troops units, which you do.

The rules say that you can deploy Infiltrators, so long as you don't break the squad limits.
They don't say that you can temporariy ignore the squad limits in order to get more models onto the board.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

deadlygopher wrote:In fact, "selections" is probably the most important word to this little problem. Selections is clearly a reference codex listings, from which you select. It's most certainly NOT a reference to units you already have deployed.

you're taking selections out of context now.

"one unit from HQ selections" not "one HQ selection"

The important part is thus the "one unit," the "HQ selections" just tells you where you can buy it from. If it just said "deploy HQ selections" you could deploy everything you bought from HQ, or if it said "one unit" you could deploy everything you could jam into that one unit.
"one unit of HQ selections" however, means that you can deploy only a single unit, comprised of only things you bought from the HQ section of your codex.

Even if "selections" is a superfluous word, you've STILL given no rule that says WHY an HQ + Troop counts as an HQ + Troop but and HQ + HQ counts as 1 HQ. I understand why you say you can do that, but you haven't cited a rule that supports your position. Given the info we do have (that an HQ joining a troop counts as both an HQ and a troop for Dawn of War deployment purposes), what you're proposing is an exception to the normal course of things. That's fine, but you need a rule.

So in the end:
1) The word "selections" is a problem to your argument. You say the word doesn't mean anything, whatever.
2) You claim that sometimes you can deploy an IC with another unit and it counts as one unit for Dawn of War purposes. But in other circumstances, deploying an IC with another unit counts as two units for Dawn of War purposes.

#2 doesn't make sense without a rule to back you up.

You know that a squad and it's transport count as two for the purpose of initial deployment.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:You know that a squad and it's transport count as two for the purpose of initial deployment.

That's a completely different issue, as a squad and their transport always count as two seperate units.

deadlygopher wrote:You didn't answer my point, Pirate.

You're arguing that:
1) An HQ (IC) joins a troop pre-deployment, and that counts as one HQ and on troop.
2) An HQ (IC) joins another HQ squad pre-deployment, and that counts as one HQ.

Where do the rules support this distinction? Why does the IC lose his status as "1 HQ" in #2 but not #1. The fact that it makes sense to you, or that you're willing to recognize the difference as valid, doesn't mean the rules support it.

This is where your argument fails, and where the example provided by GW gives guidance.

insaniak wrote:I had a nice, long reply all typed out, addressing this argument point by point, but decided in the end it was just waffle and deleted it, as the crux of it is really just this:

The rules say that you are allowed to deploy "up to one unit." If there is only one unit on the table, this satisfies the rules.

You have a rule saying that you're only allowed to walk through a given door once.
You walk through, go back out the way you came, and then walk through again.

Does the fact that you have wound up on the correct side of the doorway mean that you have satisfied the rule?

I say not. You've walked through the door 3 times. The fact that the end result is the same as walking through once is irrelvant. You have still broken the rule in order to get there.

deadlygopher wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

deadlygopher wrote:In fact, "selections" is probably the most important word to this little problem. Selections is clearly a reference codex listings, from which you select. It's most certainly NOT a reference to units you already have deployed.

you're taking selections out of context now.

"one unit from HQ selections" not "one HQ selection"

The important part is thus the "one unit," the "HQ selections" just tells you where you can buy it from. If it just said "deploy HQ selections" you could deploy everything you bought from HQ, or if it said "one unit" you could deploy everything you could jam into that one unit.
"one unit of HQ selections" however, means that you can deploy only a single unit, comprised of only things you bought from the HQ section of your codex.

Ok.....

I take it you have no trouble acknowleding that "selections" references the codex listings, so for our purposes, let's briefly substitute the word "selections" for "codex listings."

Thus, "one unit from HQ codex listings" is what we can deploy in a Dawn of War battle initially.

Makes more sense now? The rule is NOT "one HQ unit." It's one HQ selection, or codex listing.

Dawn of War is COMPLETELY UNCONCERNED with how units combine pre-deployment or once they hit the table. It's tells you, you can have one HQ selection.

If I buy a farseer, that's an HQ selection.
If I buy some warlocks, that's an HQ selection.

It doesn't matter if I can combine them pre-deployment and drop them down as one HQ unit. It's two selections.

Since you're so apt to use your camera example. Let's say I have a box of cameras, and someone tells me, "you can make 1 camera selection." So, I take out two cameras and tape them together, as you yourself suggested. Have I made one selection? NO! I've made two, and just taped them together.

Does that help?

I do not agree that selections = codex listing. I agree that selections = codex listing*S* plural, or more perhaps clearly "from that section."
I read the binding word to be "one unit," meaning that so long as you have one unit that's fine.

To phrase the camera analogy like it is in the books, your "troops selections" is akin to your local camera store, from which you can buy cameras. There is also a rule that says two cameras taped together count as one camera. Dawn of war lets you bring in one camera, so you are allowed to bring in those two taped together since they count as a single camera for the purposes of the rules.

insaniak wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:This is the crux of our disagreement. You think that the rule is the process. I think the rule is the result.

That's the problem. You have yet to show anything that supports your narrower view of the rule.

No, I have. I quoted the section on infiltrating that supports my definition over yours. You have not posted anything to back up your equally narrow definition whilst I have.
The problem is that there is no explicit definition of "deploy." I say it is once it's on the table. You say that deploy is "the process of deploying." There is nothing in the rulebook as far as I can tell that supports yours. The quoted section with regards to infiltrating implies that what matters is that once deployment is over and finished, you do not exceed the maximum requirements

insaniak wrote:The rule only specifies what can be deployed. You're choosing to ignore part of the meaning of that statement, in favour of the interpretation that allows you to do what you want.

I'm saying that you have to follow the entire rule. If the rule says that only one unit can be deployed, then only one unit can be deployed. You can't just ignore the rule during deployment and claim that it only applies afterwards.

Again, what counts as deployed? I say it is only a deployed unit when it has been deployed, so if you deploy an IC and a command squad together you have deployed a single unit. I'm not ignoring one part of the rule, in fact I believe that you areignoring the rule that says the ICs can be deployed as part of the unit.

insaniak wrote:

Pulling this one out again: "Troops and HQ units that can infiltrate can do so, as long as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table."

Which, again, only means that if you're deploying Infiltrators you are still bound by the unit limits. It doesn't allow you to ignore the limit on what you can deploy.

Deploy troop squad one, troop squad two, and command squad. That is two troops and an HQ correct?

Fine so far.

Now you infiltrate Shrike in coherency with the command squad.

And there's where it comes unstuck. You have already deployed a HQ unit.
You are now trying to deploy another HQ unit.
The rules say that you can only deploy 1 HQ unit.
So Shrike, regardless of what might happen to him after he is one the board, can not be deployed, as doing so requires you to deploy a second HQ.

But that is where we disagree. The section clearly says it doesn't matter unless "AT THE END OF DEPLOYMENT the player still has maximum one HQ and two troops on the table"
Note: AT THE END OF DEPLOYMENT. The rule is EXPLICITLY stating that it ONLY matters once everything is on the table, said and done. Nowhere at all does it say that holding a model that may count as a separate model if not deployed in cohesion with another unit is a violation of the rules.
"AT THE END OF DEPLOYMENT" fits my interpretation to a "T," how does yours fit in there? Shrike is NOT a second unit as he has been deployed as PART of another unit, thus forming ONE single unit. The rules say that all that matters is that once he has been deployed, there is maximum one unit on the table.

Sorry for the caps, but bolds weren't putting enough emphasis on what I'm trying to get at.

insaniak wrote:It owuld be akin to moving a model into BTB with an enemy model in the Movement phase, and claiming that you can ignore the 1" rule because you're going to charge in the Assault phase, and that would out them in BTB anyway...

You can't ignore a rule now because of something that will change later.

It is nothing like that. The rule explicitly states a difference between "movement phase" and "assault phase." There is no such distinction between "deploying" and "deployed," and doing so is a stretch at best.

insaniak wrote:

The rules say you can do this, so long as at the end of deployment you have a maximum of one HQ unit and two Troops units, which you do.

The rules say that you can deploy Infiltrators, so long as you don't break the squad limits.
They don't say that you can temporariy ignore the squad limits in order to get more models onto the board.

deadlygopher wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

deadlygopher wrote:In fact, "selections" is probably the most important word to this little problem. Selections is clearly a reference codex listings, from which you select. It's most certainly NOT a reference to units you already have deployed.

you're taking selections out of context now.

"one unit from HQ selections" not "one HQ selection"

The important part is thus the "one unit," the "HQ selections" just tells you where you can buy it from. If it just said "deploy HQ selections" you could deploy everything you bought from HQ, or if it said "one unit" you could deploy everything you could jam into that one unit.
"one unit of HQ selections" however, means that you can deploy only a single unit, comprised of only things you bought from the HQ section of your codex.

Even if "selections" is a superfluous word, you've STILL given no rule that says WHY an HQ + Troop counts as an HQ + Troop but and HQ + HQ counts as 1 HQ. I understand why you say you can do that, but you haven't cited a rule that supports your position. Given the info we do have (that an HQ joining a troop counts as both an HQ and a troop for Dawn of War deployment purposes), what you're proposing is an exception to the normal course of things. That's fine, but you need a rule.

So in the end:
1) The word "selections" is a problem to your argument. You say the word doesn't mean anything, whatever.
2) You claim that sometimes you can deploy an IC with another unit and it counts as one unit for Dawn of War purposes. But in other circumstances, deploying an IC with another unit counts as two units for Dawn of War purposes.

#2 doesn't make sense without a rule to back you up.

Lol blast you edited after I'd already clicked reply.

1) I say the word means "from that section." "one unit from HQ selections" means "One unit bought from the HQ section."
2) I'm not saying counts as two units, I'm saying counts as a unit from two different sections. That is the difference. Since it counts as a unit from two different sections, when counting how many units you have from each section it is counted both times. The Camera-phone counts as both a camera, and a phone.

The rule is "one unit from HQ selections." the IC section clearly states when ICs can be combined to form a single unit. Thus a single unit made up of multiple HQs is still only "one unit....from HQ selections."

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:No, I have. I quoted the section on infiltrating that supports my definition over yours. You have not posted anything to back up your equally narrow definition whilst I have.

You've posted something that doesn't say what you're claiming it says.

There's not really anything that I can post to refute that, other than to point out that it doesn't say what you claim it does.

The problem is that there is no explicit definition of "deploy." I say it is once it's on the table.

So what are you doing when you are placing the unit, if not deploying them?

Again, what counts as deployed?

Deploying is the act of placing the unit on the table.
Once it is on the table, it has been deployed.
While you are placing it, you are deploying it.

in fact I believe that you areignoring the rule that says the ICs can be deployed as part of the unit.

I'm not ignoring it. I've already pointed out why it doesn't help you.

insaniak wrote: The section clearly says it doesn't matter unless "AT THE END OF DEPLOYMENT the player still has maximum one HQ and two troops on the table"

It doesn't say that it doesn't matter.
It says that you can deploy Infiltrators so long as you don't break the squad limit.

I don't know how many different ways I can point out that it doesn't say what you're claiming it says, sorry.

It never says that squad limits don't count until the end of deployment. Just that Infiltrators can be placed so long as you have no more than the listed number of units when you're done.

Shrike is NOT a second unit as he has been deployed as PART of another unit, thus forming ONE single unit.

You have to deploy him in order for him to join the squad, because he is joined to them by being deployed in coherency.
If you have already deployed the squad, deploying Shrike means deploying a second HQ.
There is no way to get him onto the table, or to get him to join the squad, without deploying him.

What happens to him once he is on the table is completely irrelevant. The rules say that you can only deploy 1 HQ.

You deploy the unit. That's one HQ.
You deploy Shrike. That's one HQ.

How many HQ units are on the table?
1

How many HQ units have you deployed?
2

How many HQ units can you deploy?
1

You have therefore broken a rule.

The rules say that all that matters...

No. Sorry, they don't.

It is nothing like that. The rule explicitly states a difference between "movement phase" and "assault phase." There is no such distinction between "deploying" and "deployed," and doing so is a stretch at best.

If there is no distinction between 'deployed' and 'deploying' why would you think that the squad limit only applies to one of them?

Note again that there is no mention in the rules that the IC is a separate unit while you're holding him in the air,

Yes, I'm afraid there is.
He's a seperate unit unless he is joined to a squad.
He can only be joined to the squad by being deployed into coherency with them.
He's not in coherency with them while you're in the act of deploying him.
Ergo, until he has actually been deployed into coherency with them, he is not joined to the squad.

He is therefore a seperate unit during deployment. It is only after deployment that he can be considered as joined to the squad. Anything else would be physically impossible.

Does a captain with a command squad or a chapter master with an honor guard benefit from the rule that either counts as an upgrade character to the unit and cannot be singled out in close combat? If the answer is no then the captain/chapter master and the command squad/honor guard count as two separate choices.

G

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Lol blast you edited after I'd already clicked reply.

1) I say the word means "from that section." "one unit from HQ selections" means "One unit bought from the HQ section."
2) I'm not saying counts as two units, I'm saying counts as a unit from two different sections. That is the difference. Since it counts as a unit from two different sections, when counting how many units you have from each section it is counted both times. The Camera-phone counts as both a camera, and a phone.

The rule is "one unit from HQ selections." the IC section clearly states when ICs can be combined to form a single unit. Thus a single unit made up of multiple HQs is still only "one unit....from HQ selections."

Before we go further, let's make sure you fully accept your own position.

In my army, I have two chaos lords as my HQ selections. I play you in a Dawn of War game. According to you, I can deploy both chaos lords initially, as long as they're together, right?

insaniak wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:No, I have. I quoted the section on infiltrating that supports my definition over yours. You have not posted anything to back up your equally narrow definition whilst I have.

You've posted something that doesn't say what you're claiming it says.

There's not really anything that I can post to refute that, other than to point out that it doesn't say what you claim it does.

But it does
"...as long as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table."

at the end of deployment....on the table. That is what it says. At the end of deployment, the command squad and IC are one unit of HQ that is on the table.

insaniak wrote:

The problem is that there is no explicit definition of "deploy." I say it is once it's on the table.

So what are you doing when you are placing the unit, if not deploying them?

You "are deploying" models yes. Where does it say that the IC is a unit when he is not on the table though? It says that he is PART of a unit if he is deployed WITH them, never that he is a separate unit.

If they are deployed together, you are deploying one one unit.

insaniak wrote:

Again, what counts as deployed?

Deploying is the act of placing the unit on the table.
Once it is on the table, it has been deployed.
While you are placing it, you are deploying it.

"Can deploy up to one unit from HQ selections." That means that he can 'deploy' a single 'unit' on of hq on the table. IC+command squad when deployed together are a single unit, and thus you have deployed a single unit of HQ.

insaniak wrote:

in fact I believe that you areignoring the rule that says the ICs can be deployed as part of the unit.

I'm not ignoring it. I've already pointed out why it doesn't help you.

How though? By saying that it doesn't apply because he's a separate unit for some split second while you take him out of the case? Show me that rule please.

The IC is deployed WITH the squad, which is clarified to mean that he is now PART of that unit. Part of unit = one unit => you have deployed a single unit of HQ.

insaniak wrote:

insaniak wrote: The section clearly says it doesn't matter unless "AT THE END OF DEPLOYMENT the player still has maximum one HQ and two troops on the table"

It doesn't say that it doesn't matter.
It says that you can deploy Infiltrators so long as you don't break the squad limit.

I don't know how many different ways I can point out that it doesn't say what you're claiming it says, sorry.

It never says that squad limits don't count until the end of deployment. Just that Infiltrators can be placed so long as you have no more than the listed number of units when you're done.

It says that you can deploy infiltrators so long as "at the end of deployment" there are max one HQ and two troops UNITS on the table. It does not say max one hq selection, max one HQ FoC slot, max one HQ purchase, but max one hq UNIT. command squad + IC is one unit.

insaniak wrote:

Shrike is NOT a second unit as he has been deployed as PART of another unit, thus forming ONE single unit.

You have to deploy him in order for him to join the squad, because he is joined to them by being deployed in coherency.
If you have already deployed the squad, deploying Shrike means deploying a second HQ.

He is not a separate unit unless you deploy him as a separate unit. Until then, he is a separate HQ "selection" or "purchase" or "FoC slot," but not a separate unit. By deploying him with the HQ unit already on the board, you do not ever exceed two HQ units.

A unit is not a unit unless it is deployed as a unit. Show me a rule that conveys otherwise.

insaniak wrote:There is no way to get him onto the table, or to get him to join the squad, without deploying him.

There is not, and once he is deployed he is a member of that unit, and thus does not exceed the maximum number of units.

insaniak wrote:What happens to him once he is on the table is completely irrelevant. The rules say that you can only deploy 1 HQ.

You deploy the unit. That's one HQ.
You deploy Shrike. That's one HQ.

How many HQ units are on the table?
1

How many HQ units have you deployed?
2

How many HQ units can you deploy?
1

You have therefore broken a rule.

If you deploy him separate to the other HQ unit then yes, I would agree. But you do not, you deploy him as PART of that unit. You agree that when he is attached he is part of the unit.

Thus how many units of HQ would you have? Only one, because he+command squad are one unit.

insaniak wrote:

It is nothing like that. The rule explicitly states a difference between "movement phase" and "assault phase." There is no such distinction between "deploying" and "deployed," and doing so is a stretch at best.

If there is no distinction between 'deployed' and 'deploying' why would you think that the squad limit only applies to one of them?

Because it doesn't say he's a unit "while deploying." only that he becomes a unit if deployed on his own. If deployed with the other unit, then he is simply part of that ONE unit, and there is never two units.

I suppose that is the distinction. The section from the IC rules state that he if he is deployed with a unit he becomes a single unit with them.

insaniak wrote:

Note again that there is no mention in the rules that the IC is a separate unit while you're holding him in the air,

"He's a seperate unit unless he is joined to a squad."
correct
"He can only be joined to the squad by being deployed into coherency with them."
also correct
"He's not in coherency with them while you're in the act of deploying him."
This does not matter, as he isn't deployed yet. Once you deploy him, if he is deployed within coherency, he counts as one unit with them
"Ergo, until he has actually been deployed into coherency with them, he is not joined to the squad. "
Until he has joined the unit, he has not joined the unit?

"He is therefore a seperate unit during deployment. It is only after deployment that he can be considered as joined to the squad. Anything else would be physically impossible."
He is not considered a separate unit unless he is deployed as a separate unit. If he begins the game with a squad, he is considered part of that squad.

The rules say that you may deploy one unit from hq. You deploy them together, and thus deploy one unit from hq.

The rule with infiltrate clearly states that you can do it "SO LONG AS at the END of deployment you have a MAXIMUM of two UNITS of troops and one UNIT of HQ."

once deployed with the command squad they are one UNIT. that violates no rules, as there is now one unit on the board made up of HQ selections.

deadlygopher wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Lol blast you edited after I'd already clicked reply.

1) I say the word means "from that section." "one unit from HQ selections" means "One unit bought from the HQ section."
2) I'm not saying counts as two units, I'm saying counts as a unit from two different sections. That is the difference. Since it counts as a unit from two different sections, when counting how many units you have from each section it is counted both times. The Camera-phone counts as both a camera, and a phone.

The rule is "one unit from HQ selections." the IC section clearly states when ICs can be combined to form a single unit. Thus a single unit made up of multiple HQs is still only "one unit....from HQ selections."

Before we go further, let's make sure you fully accept your own position.

In my army, I have two chaos lords as my HQ selections. I play you in a Dawn of War game. According to you, I can deploy both chaos lords initially, as long as they're together, right?

"[Independent characters can join other independent characters to form a powerful multi-character unit"
"Alternatively, an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

Now unless I was going to be super rules-lawyery about the pluralism "them" requiring that there be more than one model for the IC to start the game as a member of that unit, so long as they are both forming one unit then I do not see how that violates the rules.

HQ+HQ=one unit from the HQ selections, ie one unit purchased from HQ FoC slots.

Since at the end of deployment it is only one unit, you do not exceed your maximum number of allowed units according to Dawn of War.

If it was Daemon princes that would not be allowed tough, because monstrous creatures can't join units.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Does a captain with a command squad or a chapter master with an honor guard benefit from the rule that either counts as an upgrade character to the unit and cannot be singled out in close combat? If the answer is no then the captain/chapter master and the command squad/honor guard count as two separate choices.

G

Two separate choices yes, two separate units no. That is the most important part. Dawn of war allows a specific number of units selected from two specific categories of choices to be taken. So long as you have two units from one choice and one unit from the other choice you satisfy the maximum allowed number of units.

That is why I mentioned the caveat in regard to a transport for a unit... In DoW they count as two separate units.

In regards to the rules in general I have always said that if your argument requires several paragraphs to justify it most likely is ill conceived. I as a gamer don't want to hear a long explanation as to why you can do something. Your argument should be succint in my opinion. That is just me though.

G

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:at the end of deployment....on the table. That is what it says.

Right. And it doesn't say anything about ignoring the squad limit on the way there.

At the end of deployment, the command squad and IC are one unit of HQ that is on the table.

Which is fine. That simply means that you haven't broken the rule regarding infiltrators.
You have still broken the rule that says you can only deploy a single HQ unit.

Two seperate rules. You can't break either of them in order for the desired option to be legal.

Where does it say that the IC is a unit when he is not on the table though?

The rules for units do not differentiate between models on or off the table. A unit is a unit, regardless of where it is.

It says that he is PART of a unit if he is deployed WITH them, never that he is a separate unit.

The Independant Character rules say that he is a seperate unit, unless he is joined or attached to another unit. Again, no distinction is made for whether or not the character is on the board. He is a seperate unit until you join him to another unit.

How though? By saying that it doesn't apply because he's a separate unit for some split second while you take him out of the case? Show me that rule please.

Page 47, Character Types.

Your turn: Please provide the rule that says that he doesn't count until he is on the table.

Because without that he follows the regular rules, which means he is a unit in his own right until joined to a squad.

It says that you can deploy infiltrators so long as "at the end of deployment" there are max one HQ and two troops UNITS on the table.

And once again does not say that you can ignore the usual restrictions while deploying said infiltrators. Just that you must satisfy the unit cap at the end of your deployment. Meaning that you can't deploy Infiltrators if doing so would break the unit cap.

By deploying him with the HQ unit already on the board, you do not ever exceed two HQ units.

By deploying him with the HQ unit already on the board, you are breaking the rule that says that you can only deploy 1 HQ.

A unit is not a unit unless it is deployed as a unit.

Sorry, this rule is where?

A unit is a unit. The only way to make it not a unit is through some game mechanic that allows it to change it's state. Such as joining that unit to another.

There is not, and once he is deployed he is a member of that unit, and thus does not exceed the maximum number of units.

But that's only any good to you if you can deploy him in the first place... which you can't do without deploying more than one HQ unit.

If you deploy him separate to the other HQ unit then yes, I would agree. But you do not, you deploy him as PART of that unit. You agree that when he is attached he is part of the unit.

But you can't deploy him as part of the unit.
There is simply no way to do this in the current rules.

You have to deploy him in coherency with the unit. At that point, he becomes a part of the unit. Before that point, he is a seperate unit.

Whether or not you deploy him at the same time as the unit makes no difference to that. He is a seperate unit until actually joined. It is physically impossible for him to be joined until both character and unit are on the table.

Because it doesn't say he's a unit "while deploying." only that he becomes a unit if deployed on his own.

Sorry, it says that where?

If deployed with the other unit, then he is simply part of that ONE unit,

No. If deployed into the unit, he becomes a part of that unit.

Again, you need to be able to deploy him in order for this to happen.

The section from the IC rules state that he if he is deployed with a unit he becomes a single unit with them.

Exactly.

He's not in coherency with them while you're in the act of deploying him.

This does not matter, as he isn't deployed yet.

Of course it matters, as it's what defines whether or not he is a part of the unit.

He is joined to the unit by being in coherency with them. If he's not in coherency yet, he can't be joined yet.

The rule with infiltrate clearly states that you can do it SO LONG AS at the END of deployment you have a MAXIMUM of two UNITS of troops and one UNIT of HQ.

No matter how many times you repeat that rule, it won't suddenly start being relevant for anything other than Infiltrators, and won't affect the squad cap during deployment.

So unless you can provide something that says that deploying an IC doesn't count as deploying a unit, I think I'm about done here.

The rule with infiltrate clearly states that you can do it SO LONG AS at the END of deployment you have a MAXIMUM of two UNITS of troops and one UNIT of HQ.

No matter how many times you repeat that rule, it won't suddenly start being relevant for anything other than Infiltrators, and won't affect the squad cap during deployment.

So unless you can provide something that says that deploying an IC doesn't count as deploying a unit, I think I'm about done here.

It finally occurred to me that although a unit of IC isn't defined in the rulebook, it IS defined in the codex.

"unit composition: 1 captain"

So you're right, he does count as a unit beforehand. [joke]Still took me finding the rule though [/joke]

I quoted the infiltrators rule as, unable to find anything to define when an IC was a unit, the best is to extrapolate from that section there that what matters is how many units are on the table at the end.

It would be legal if he could make it onto the board without counting as "deploying a unit," as that mega unit would count as a single HQ unit. However he cannot, as that WOULD be deploying a new unit, now that he is in fact defined as a unit, so the aforementioned case can never come to be.

[joke]Now I can simply argue that I never lost this debate, since it was me and not any of you who found the rule to prove me wrong hahaha[/joke]

/thread in any event though

edit: added emphasis to my gakky sarcasm where it cropped up

You're boasting about realizing that a unit is a unit? The previous reference to the definition of an IC in the rulebook wasn't good enough?

Okay...

Ah well, as long as you've realized that no amount of justification is going to get most people to let you deploy two chaos sorcerers on the table in DoW, it's all good.

Now I can simply argue that I never lost this debate, since it was me and not any of you who found the rule to prove me wrong hahaha

yes you can. Since facts have never stopped you from arguing any other position, why should this be any different.

Mannahnin wrote:You're boasting about realizing that a unit is a unit? The previous reference to the definition of an IC in the rulebook wasn't good enough?

Okay...

Ah well, as long as you've realized that no amount of justification is going to get most people to let you deploy two chaos sorcerers on the table in DoW, it's all good.

It's clear that a regular unit is a unit, but it doesn't actually refer to an IC as a unit anywhere in the rulebook except where it says "it fights like a unit," which is never to say that it IS a unit.

That an IC can transition from a unit of its own to part of another unit makes it a special case of being a unit. When does it become a unit? Without a specific reference to this, it looked like that comes when you make a decision whether to deploy it on its own or with a squad.

However since the codex actually does define it as a unit of size 1, then suggestion that it's a choice made when deploying was wrong. It is a unit of its own until you deploy it with another unit.

That's what happens when you argue rules during finals week


edit:

coredump wrote:

Now I can simply argue that I never lost this debate, since it was me and not any of you who found the rule to prove me wrong hahaha

yes you can. Since facts have never stopped you from arguing any other position, why should this be any different.

Oh come on that was a joke. I admitted I was wrong, lighten up.

From page 3 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single, very large or powerful model, such as a battle tank, a monstrous alien creature or a lone hero. In the rules that follow, all of these things are referred to as ‘units’.

So what would qualify as a 'lone hero'? Seems to me that would be an Independent Character.