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Do these still slay models outright in 5e even if the model has Eternal Warrior USR? Otherwise it looks like Grey Knights Heroes get boned vs. Codex Daemons. These guys are supposed to be "experts" in killing daemons, but it seems they fall short now. Thoughts?

Capt K

Right now, if you subscribe to the "codex rules" stance that GW has laid down, Force Weapons out of the DH codex do NOT cause "Instant Death"...

....in their description they "Slay the enemy outright".
Eternal Warrior doesnt save you against that.

I'm expecting issues with that at any GT's. My Grey Knights dont bring a GM though so I'm at least safe.

However, the Crusaders out of that book still have Assault Cannons that shoot only 3 times without rending.

Deadshane1 wrote:Right now, if you subscribe to the "codex rules" stance that GW has laid down, Force Weapons out of the DH codex do NOT cause "Instant Death"...

....in their description they "Slay the enemy outright".
Eternal Warrior doesnt save you against that.

I'm expecting issues with that at any GT's. My Grey Knights dont bring a GM though so I'm at least safe.

However, the Crusaders out of that book still have Assault Cannons that shoot only 3 times without rending.

And can move 12" and fire the hurricane bolters while machine-spiriting the Assault cannon or multi-melta at a different target.

I see this causing potential arguments with daemon players wouldn't you agree? Although the trade off for them is a non-rending Assault cannon...LOL.

Capt

CaptKaruthors wrote:I see this causing potential arguments with daemon players wouldn't you agree? Although the trade off for them is a non-rending Assault cannon...LOL.

Capt

So a Daemon player complains that a Grey Knights army is cheesy?

CaptKaruthors wrote:I see this causing potential arguments with daemon players wouldn't you agree? Although the trade off for them is a non-rending Assault cannon...LOL.

Capt

Exactly, but I can see the Daemon hunter player saying "Well they are Daemon hunters..."

But seriously, I would honestly (if I was the opponent) say that if you use 3 shot assault cannons then you may use a non-instant death force weapon that slays outright, because your sticking with the codex through thick and thin.

But, it also works in reverse, if an opponent wants to use the new assault cannon, or any other new rule for something they have, and then point out the force weapon works against Eternal Warriors, then I will raise the BS flag.

There is also the fact that half of the psychic powers and equiptment that the DH's actually have in their codex doesnt even work anymore. I dont think its such a stretch to say that they're more proficient with their force weapons, especially when it comes to sucking up daemons.

So a Daemon player complains that a Grey Knights army is cheesy?

Yeah, pretty much what he said...LOL. The main argument came up with "play how your codex reads". I said that NFW can then kill models with EW. He was like: I don't think so. So that is why I posted here so I can get a pulse on how people might be dealing with that situation. The thing is, that no where on GW FAQ section does it specifically say "play with the rules in your codex" which was his point of contention when I brought it up.

Capt K

In response, absolutely, play how your codex tells you too, there are a couple examples in the rule book pointing to the codex as greater than rulebook when rules collide (ex. being the smoke launchers, which the BGB tells the reader to check his codex and use his codex's version if it is different from the rulebook).

padixon wrote:

CaptKaruthors wrote:I see this causing potential arguments with daemon players wouldn't you agree? Although the trade off for them is a non-rending Assault cannon...LOL.

Capt

Exactly, but I can see the Daemon hunter player saying "Well they are Daemon hunters..."

But seriously, I would honestly (if I was the opponent) say that if you use 3 shot assault cannons then you may use a non-instant death force weapon that slays outright, because your sticking with the codex through thick and thin.

But, it also works in reverse, if an opponent wants to use the new assault cannon, or any other new rule for something they have, and then point out the force weapon works against Eternal Warriors, then I will raise the BS flag.

At last! we agree!

Yeah, but in this case it technically is a force weapon...so I see his point, but like I said...half the crap that worked in that book doesn't anymore...so to quote Dr. Evil I told him "to throw me a frickin' bone here".

Capt K

Frickin' daemon players. What cheezy gits.

Yeah Val, the player in question is how you described once as a lemon wedge stuck in your a$$? LOL. I think you know who I mean...and we'll leave it at that.

Capt K

Capt K, thats a good find in the DH codex. If LRC for DH dont use rending and are 3 shots, I say their Nemesis Force Weapons can outright kill Deamons. I guarantee it will make most deamon players tell you where you can stick that army but its 100% legal and dont forget that smoke launchers in that codex are glancing hits only vs shooting.

Codex > Rulebook

Getting back to the origional question here is my answer:

Using a force weapon from a DH or WH codex means that if you pass the psycic test you remove the model due to codex rules. Here is why:

the codex entry states: "If the test is passed the opponent is slain outright, no matter how many wounds it has."

There is no mention of instant death.

In the BRB it states that a model with eternal warrior is immune to the effects of instant death.

Currently because this has not been FAQed slain outright does not equal instant death. Slain outright is not mentioned in the page 26 BRB when mentioning instant death.

Therefore force weapons from DH & WH ignore the eternal warrior rule until FAQed differently IMO.

Codex Equipment rules are always what comes out on top, just look at the new Dark Angels FAQ.

The Inquisition players from B&C forum have put together the following compilation on the quirks of the DH Codex. Highly recommended.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=150103

I don't see how anyone can say slain outright does not equal instant death. Sure Grey Knights should be able to but the rules don't support it. It's not even a real loophole to be honest.

G

It is the exact wording they had last edition, which meant they didn't cause Instant Death. Of course the same wording will have the same effect in this edition.

I was actually surprised that it wasnt FAQ'd with the new PDF....along with crusader assault cannons, DH smoke launchers, DH dozer blades (somehow only work when moving 6" or less), Rites of Exorcism, almost all the psychic daemon stomping powers, and other issues....

With all the things that hurt the DH codex, luckily we benefitted in some instances assuming that you're HARD CORE "codex>rulebook". This is one of those times.

As long as my Dozer Blades dont work when moving 12" or my Crusaders assault cannon cannot rend, I've got no problem popping smoke for glancing only hits and 1-shotting hero's like Greater Daemons, Abbadon, Calgar, Phoenix lords ext....

Green Blow Fly wrote:I don't see how anyone can say slain outright does not equal instant death. Sure Grey Knights should be able to but the rules don't support it. It's not even a real loophole to be honest.

G

Sure it is. Older force weapons kill models outright, which has absolutely nothing to do with the instant death rule. This is similar to what a Shokk Attack gun does, for example, when a double six is rolled: the model is simply removed from the table. This is *not* instant death.

The difference is even noted in Apocalypse where Gargantuan Creatures are immune to "instant death" and against weapons that would remove them from the table (they even note Force weapons as such an effect, because that's what old force weapons do) they suffer D3 wounds instead of being removed.

So yes, there is a difference, and yes you use the wording from your codex which means that DH force weapons do have the ability to remove Daemons outright. . .which actually is fitting despite the fact that it comes from incompatibilities between editions of the rules.

With the wording (and an occasional DH player) I would agree that the NFW can still kill outright. The wording is carefully used to NOT mention Instant Death.

Non-Rending Heavy 3 Assault Cannons is not a good example to fall back on in this discussion - as the BRB specifically states that the GK AC has those stats. There is no disagreement between codex and rules on that one.

Couple other questions then in regards to DH vs Daemons.

I agree with the NFW killing a Daemon outright regardless of Eternal Warrior. I'm a big proponent of codex overruling rule book.

I have a few questions as to how far everyone is looking at this.

- The DH rulebook states what it considers Daemons to be in regards to it's book. Since the only things in that list that exist in a Chaos Daemon army are Greater Daemons and Nurglings, how does this work with RAW?

- Blessing of the Blood God gives a 2+ invuln against Psychic attacks that cause wounds and Force weapons (not weapons with the force weapon special rule). Every GK is armed with a Nemesis "Force" Weapon. Does this save apply to all of these weapons or only those wielded by someone powerful enough to have them use the force weapon rule?

- The recycling rule. Since Sustained Assault doesn't really exist anymore and the units that are named in that rule don't really exist anymore, does this rule even apply?

huh, I never saw that. Good call, Dem! (pg 101)

Okay yak thanks for clarifying that... GK do need a break.

G

yakface wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I don't see how anyone can say slain outright does not equal instant death. Sure Grey Knights should be able to but the rules don't support it. It's not even a real loophole to be honest.

G

Sure it is. Older force weapons kill models outright, which has absolutely nothing to do with the instant death rule. This is similar to what a Shokk Attack gun does, for example, when a double six is rolled: the model is simply removed from the table. This is *not* instant death.

The difference is even noted in Apocalypse where Gargantuan Creatures are immune to "instant death" and against weapons that would remove them from the table (they even note Force weapons as such an effect, because that's what old force weapons do) they suffer D3 wounds instead of being removed.

So yes, there is a difference, and yes you use the wording from your codex which means that DH force weapons do have the ability to remove Daemons outright. . .which actually is fitting despite the fact that it comes from incompatibilities between editions of the rules.

Shaggoth wrote:Couple other questions then in regards to DH vs Daemons.
- The DH rulebook states what it considers Daemons to be in regards to it's book. Since the only things in that list that exist in a Chaos Daemon army are Greater Daemons and Nurglings, how does this work with RAW?

- Blessing of the Blood God gives a 2+ invuln against Psychic attacks that cause wounds and Force weapons (not weapons with the force weapon special rule). Every GK is armed with a Nemesis "Force" Weapon. Does this save apply to all of these weapons or only those wielded by someone powerful enough to have them use the force weapon rule?

- The recycling rule. Since Sustained Assault doesn't really exist anymore and the units that are named in that rule don't really exist anymore, does this rule even apply?

Strictly going by RAW, I'd say that you are going to be fighting very few daemons.

Nemesis Force Weapon is not the same as a Force Weapon. Just look at Missile Launcher vs. Eldar Missile Launcher. They are similar but have different names and rules.

Finally as with half the GK rules, recycling just doesn't work.

lol, or a storm shield vs storm shield

"Strictly going by RAW, I'd say that you are going to be fighting very few daemons."

This is a case where RAW breaks down completely in my opinion.

G

Yeah, GK vs. Daemons using RAW is lame.