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Codex Dark Angels, page 36 (Company Master):

"Rites of Battle: If a Company Master is on the table then all other Dark Angel units may use his Leadership (10)for Morale, Pinning and Leadership tests, but not Psychic tests."

Codex Necron, page 17 (Pariahs):

"Soulless: Any enemy with a model within 12" of a Pariah counts as having Leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that."

These two seem to be in direct contradiction. How do I resolve this?


PS. Did a quick search and found two relevant threads (Ork Mob Size/Pariahs and Book of St. Lucius/Pariahs) unfortunatly they both ended unconclusive.

You use the LD of the CM, then it gets modified to 7 due to the Pariahs.

Well I'm not sure so I could be totally wrong and if I am I will probably be crucified for it but;
The Pariah's effect should be the dominant one, if a unit is within 12' of him then they are LD 7.
You could argue the other way but by that thinking if the Chapter Master is within 12' then all your dudes using his LD have 7.

Hope that is the answer you were looking for.

Edit for echo.

Not specifically disagreeing, but the counter-arguments I have heard run along the lines of;

"Yep, and then you can use the marshals leadership 10 for the test, you're not modifying the models leadership to 10, you're using a different models stat, which hasn't been modified. "

and


"Rites of Battle allows you to use the commanders leadership. It's stated pretty clearly that way. As such, if the commander is outside of the pariah's special ability range, his leadership is 9 or 10, whichever version you have. When it's time to take tests, then you may use his, which is 10."

So unless the Pariah is within range of the Master then you don't need to worry.

I honestly do not know how the rules stack, but my gut says this.

The Commander is relaying orders thru the marines short range communications. The pariahs send out an aura of fear. I think (and this is based only on action movies) that the fear would take hold of the marines as the commander's voice is heard demanding a response.

"Echo 2, do you copy? Damn it Artimos! Answer me!"

So I vote for Soulless to take priority.

I disagree, The rites of battle rule say, and you have to pay attention "may use his Leadership"

The rules for Pariahs are to lower the enemy units leader ship to 7 within a certain number of inches from them

So here we go.

1) the unit is in range and has its leader ship lowered to 7

2) They must take a leadership check for whatever reason.

3) The SM player decides to utilize rites of battle which state that he "may use his Leadership" (meaning the Company Captain)

4) Note: the rule does *not* say it adjusts or changes the leadership of the unit whatsoever, so the units LD is still 7

5) Note: the rule *does* say they may use the company masters leadership for LD checks. Notice there is *no* substitution. Only they are using the LD check from the Comapny master who very well may be across the table.

6) This does mean if the Company Master is within the range of the Pariahs and the SM player wishes to utilize Rites of Battle, then the LD used would be a 7.

Exactly. The Pariah's ability reduces the Leadership of the models within 12". Unfortunately for them, those models (if there is a character with Rites of Battle on the table) can USE the leadership of that character instead of their own, reduced LD.

So "using" is not the same as "raising" or "replacing"? effectively, that is.

Im drawing a parallel to "hatches blown" and "doors open" in the Drop Pod discussions.


(Devils Advocate)

Nope. If your Chaos Space Marine Aspiring Champion replaces his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol, he no longer has the use of the bolt pistol, but can choose to use his other weapons.

Under most circumstances a model uses its own LD for tests, or that of the highest-LD model in its unit. However there are a few special rules which allow it to use the LD of another model (or a different value entirely; see Mob Rule), in which circumstances the fact that the model's own LD has been reduced doesn't impact the test.

So an Ork Mob consisting of 9 models within 12" of a Pariah, uses 9 as the target-number for a given Break test and not 7?

I think we could all agree if there are 10 or more Orks. even if the Ld is 7 they would still be fearless.

This sounds more like fishing to me and really looking at a rule six kinds of side ways to be immune to perhaps one of the most rarely seen models in the game. This is more of a RAI type of thing. Verbiage changes over editions and somethings are implied. But this is just silly. Leadership drops if within range.

Why not just take it to the next level? I know I took 5 wounds but I'm using that guys LD so its 10 not 5. Just because your captain is talking to you doesn't mean you should not be running from the very real threat in front of you. Pariahs modify a models leadership regardless of how they got it or who they got it from.

Feel free to abandon common sense and argue this the other way. I do love rolling my eyes at these lil quibbles.

Actually I am the one playing Dark Angels. I just want to be absolutly sure.

Sha1emade wrote:This sounds more like fishing to me and really looking at a rule six kinds of side ways to be immune to perhaps one of the most rarely seen models in the game. This is more of a RAI type of thing. Verbiage changes over editions and somethings are implied. But this is just silly. Leadership drops if within range.

Why not just take it to the next level? I know I took 5 wounds but I'm using that guys LD so its 10 not 5. Just because your captain is talking to you doesn't mean you should not be running from the very real threat in front of you. Pariahs modify a models leadership regardless of how they got it or who they got it from.
Feel free to abandon common sense and argue this the other way. I do love rolling my eyes at these lil quibbles.

I have highlighted what seems to be your argument. Am I right?

Sha1emade wrote:This sounds more like fishing to me and really looking at a rule six kinds of side ways to be immune to perhaps one of the most rarely seen models in the game.

When you start your argument by ascribing a dishonest motivation to the opposition, you are creating unnecessary conflict, and sabotaging the validity of your own argument. The fact that Pariahs are a terrible unit and rarely seen actually REDUCES the likelihood that anyone is arguing out of self-interest in this discussion. I’d like it better if they were more useful, personally.

Sha1emade wrote:But this is just silly. Leadership drops if within range.

Being dismissive and proclaiming your opinion to be the right one, without actually addressing the opposing points previously made, is disrespectful and counterproductive.

Sha1emade wrote:Why not just take it to the next level? I know I took 5 wounds but I'm using that guys LD so its 10 not 5.

Are the situations the same? The Pariahs’ rule modifies the LD of the models in range. Rites of Battle allows you to use the LD of a different model (which may be out of range of the Pariahs) in PLACE of your LD. It changes how the test is taken. IIRC the wounds caused differential in a combat is a penalty on the test, not to the LD of the defeated unit.

Sha1emade wrote: Just because your captain is talking to you doesn't mean you should not be running from the very real threat in front of you.

Fluff /= rules. The radio example given earlier makes perfect narrative sense to me too. But you can use rationalizations to make a more or less reasonable explanation for any rule.

Sha1emade wrote: Pariahs modify a models leadership regardless of how they got it or who they got it from.

This is called circular reasoning. You’re substituting your conclusion for your premise.

Sha1emade wrote: Feel free to abandon common sense and argue this the other way. I do love rolling my eyes at these lil quibbles.

When you start with the assumption that people who disagree with you are most likely intelligent human beings, with some kind of reasoning behind their opinions, you get into fewer arguments, and more polite discussions. When you tell people that disagreeing with you is “abandon(ing) common sense” and that you roll your eyes at their “lil quibbles”, it looks like you’re trying to start a fight.

I can absolutely see the fluff justification for saying that units inside the range of the Pariah effect should be scared, and the proximity of the effect could quite reasonably overpower the impact of an officer who is across the battlefield. Of course, in real life and in literature there are many cases of soldiers who have overcome their fear of immediate dangers based on the courage that an inspiring commander, or even an abstract ideal, instills in them.

Ruling either way can easily be justified based on “fluff” or “realism”. When we’re discussing rules in this forum, however, we generally go off the text first.

When I read the text, it tells me that the Pariahs’ rule reduces the Leadership of the model. Then Rites of Battle tells me that said model is able to use a different model’s Leadership when he actually takes his test. You can obey both rules. One just happens to circumvent the effect of the other.

Well thanks for pointing out that I was being obtuse. I was and I apologize. This one got under my skin a bit.

My reasoning is this. A parahia's power is basically a leadership modification with different wording to apply to ALL models in range. If rites of battle circumvents this why does it not change when the model is in CC vs other foes. Say loosing by 5? According to what you say it is reasonable to use the leadership 10 as the captain is not in that fight. So his heroism should transfer to them. So his leadership is not modified by the overwhelming odds. As you say this would also be justifiable by fluff both for and against because he is inspiring. If what you say is RAI then no DA with a captain on the board can ever be effected by leadership modifications positive or negative unless it effects the captain which would be easy to state as if that was the way it was meant. This just feels wrong and against RAI IMHO. The reason I fight aginst this is if it becomes a president for other types of rules discussions.

Just my 2 cents...

Thanks for the apology.

I see a clear mechanical difference between the substitution of one value for another, vs. a modifier placed on the test. The latter applies no matter which value you’re using in the first place.

Well how about the fact that no mention of UNMODIFIABLE is in the wording for the Captain might help put us back on track. Also we have to consider that the DA codex came quite a bit after the crons dex did. GW often does not add a lengthy sentence to help avoid one possible instance. Which makes these conversations happen.

Also it says ANY unit with a model with in range COUNTS AS having a leadership 7. I think the wording counts as pretty much solves the issue for me. Regardless how or what leadership the model has or had it is now 7 as it has A model in range which is the only criteria according to the crons dex and it has been met.

I believe the precedence for this would be vox casters. As they use the same basic mechanic. The Rites of Battle applies but would be overturned the moment it gets in range as the models now COUNT AS leadership 7. As Rites of Battle and Vox casters basically lend leadership but does not change the models existing Ld as this seems to be the problem with this discussion.

In short you can still use both. But common sense tells me it would run like this.

Squad 1 moves into the Pariahs range and it is reduced to ld 7. DA player says he is using the captains leadership. It is now counts as 10. However as they are still in the soulless bubbly it now counts as 7. Both rules and criteria are met for soulless and Rites of Battle. If Rites works it trumps soulless but not the other way around. As I see it all rules work if done like this and still fits with the RAI IMHO. Yes you have a leadership 10 but at the moment it counts as 7. Both rules satisfied.

Just my 2 cents.

If the model with Rites of Battle is not within range of Soulless, then the Ld check is taken at a 10, except for Psychic tests.

That seems like an assumption to me. Granted most of my reasoning is based on assumptions so each to their own I suppose.

The model within the range of Soulless still counts as having Ld 7. However the text of Rites of Battle does not say to substitute or replace the Ld value, it says you can use the Company Master's Leadership. Thus if he is not also in range of Soulless, the check is taken at 10.

Sha1emade wrote:Squad 1 moves into the Pariahs range and it is reduced to ld 7. DA player says he is using the captains leadership. It is now counts as 10. However as they are still in the soulless bubbly it now counts as 7. Both rules and criteria are met for soulless and Rites of Battle. If Rites works it trumps soulless but not the other way around. As I see it all rules work if done like this and still fits with the RAI IMHO. Yes you have a leadership 10 but at the moment it counts as 7. Both rules satisfied.

I've bolded the part I disagree with. (Disclaimer: I play neither DA nor Necrons.)

The DA squad never has leadership 10, nor does it count as having leadership 10. In this instance, the current Ld of the DA unit is completely irrelevant. What Rites does is allow a unit to test using another unit's leadership - it's a substitution, not a replacement.

So the real question is does a substituted ld get effected. I have yet to hear a convincing argument for or against this. My gut tells me that the final ld should be 7. Say if the Captain is attached to the squad in question but HE is out of range then the squad would still be 7. But if further away using rights of battle then it stays 10? Seems like a wording glitch that would be FAQed against if parahias vs DA was more popular. It just doesn't feel right to me. I play both armies and it still doesn't sit right.

LD 10 would be used.

Normal squad is LD 9 (or something)

Pariahs make them count as Ld7

Captain standing out of Pariah sphere of influence has LD10

Squad can use Captain's leadership.

Captain's leadership is 10.

Squad can use LD 10.

Alternatively, the unit uses the Captain's leadership of 10, but it is within 12" of a Pariah and has their leadership reduces to 7. So the unit uses Ld7.

Remember, the unit is using the Captain's leadership, and the unit is affected by the Pariahs.

The real problem is when the Captain gets within 12" of a Pariah model. Suddenly his Rites of Battle are useless, since his leadership is reduced to 7!

Nurglitch wrote:Alternatively, the unit uses the Captain's leadership of 10, but it is within 12" of a Pariah and has their leadership reduces to 7. So the unit uses Ld7.

Remember, the unit is using the Captain's leadership, and the unit is affected by the Pariahs.

Yes, the unit is using the Capt's leadership. They do not, however, have his leadership. The unit's leadership does not matter here at all.

The real problem is when the Captain gets within 12" of a Pariah model. Suddenly his Rites of Battle are useless, since his leadership is reduced to 7!

Yup, that's how I read it.

Well, as the wording of "Soulless" says "count as 7", the leadership value can be anything you like. It could be 1.000, but it counts as 7. It could be 10, but it counts as 7.

The Rites of Battle does not say "use Captains unmodified Leadership" so it can be modified.

The squad does indeed use the Captains Leadership value of 10. It just happens to count as 7 when the squad gets to use it. The way I see it, it is the only way for us to break no rules.

Shoot the pariahs before they get there.