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Deadshane1 wrote:Shoot the pariahs before they get there.

I agree with Shane.... but aside from that I would like to say the same thing that about half the people on this forum are saying in pretty much the same way in the vain hope that my description of the rules will convince the poor lost souls who think that rites of battle doesn't trump the soulless ness of pariahs.

Disclaimer: I play neither necrons nor DA, but I play with marines and use Sicarius, so I DO havea personal stake in being right. However, I like to think that I'm objective enough to not argue for a position just because it helps me.

Probably not though.

It is true that the Pariah's effect reduces the leadership of the space marine squads within 12" to 7. However, all units outside of that bubble are unaffected. This means that the captain's leadership is still 10 right?

So, you have a squad that is close by the pariahs, with LD 7. If and when they are forced to take a leadership check, instead of using their LD7, they use the leadership of their captain, who is heroically directing them from behind.

The leadership value of the captain is unmodified as he is outside ofteh range of the pariahs, keeping him at leadership 10.

Because his leadership score is unmodified, the space marines use his leadership value.

If the rules said that all of their normal leadership scores were replaced by the captains, then the pro-necron side would be right, because the leadership of any unit of the unit had been replaced by the captains ,which was then replaced by a 7 as per the souless rule. Also, if the leadership of the squad followed the standard "counts as" rule, then again, the soulless rule would take precedence.

However, neither of these things occur, as the space marine squad merely temporarily uses the captain's leadership, which, as stated above is unmodified as he is out of the range of the 12" bubble.

Following this rule, if the captain is inside the 12" bubble, then the entire army may choose to use his leadership score, which is now a 7.

Well, as the wording of "Soulless" says "count as 7", the leadership value can be anything you like. It could be 1.000, but it counts as 7. It could be 10, but it counts as 7.

The Rites of Battle does not say "use Captains unmodified Leadership" so it can be modified.

The squad does indeed use the Captains Leadership value of 10. It just happens to count as 7 when the squad gets to use it. The way I see it, it is the only way for us to break no rules.

Not to mention, it is not much different then if the captain was attached to the squad but he himself was out side of the bubble. No one would question that the leadership used for the squad would in fact be 7. But if the unattached captain is all the way across the board then they benefit from his ld 10? Does this not seem strange and not the way the game or rule was intended. I agree with Steelmage99. It is the only way to use both rules and not break any of them. It also fits within the spirit of the game. It also makes more sense then: wow they are scary but I'm not gonna run because I've got a walkie talkie, good thing my captain wasn't standing next to me or we would all be running together.

Whether you feel it makes sense or not, Rites of Battle says they use that particular character/model's Leadership.

If he is not inside the affected area, then the Ld they use is 10. THEIR Leadership is 7, but they aren't using their own.

"Rites of Battle: If a Company Master is on the table then all other Dark Angel units may use his Leadership (10)for Morale, Pinning and Leadership tests, but not Psychic tests."

"Soulless: Any enemy unit with a model within 12" of a Pariah counts as having Leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that."

So the unit of Space Marines can use the Captain's leadership of 10 but count as having leadership 7 when they do. Simple as.

Actually it says their leadership counts as 7. Not that it is 7 that it counts as 7. Their leadership isn't 10 either but they use ld 10 from the captain witch now counts as 7. Soulless says if ANY enemy unit with a MODEL within 12" COUNTS as LD 7. It seems pretty cut and dry. Rites of battle does not say use the captain's unmodified leadership.

Yes making sense does not matter in a rules discussion but it can help determine how a rule is supposed to work, kind of like a guideline. In this case all rules are satisfied and it makes sense. So a double whammy.

The problem with these two rules and where I think the Rites of Battle crowd is making their argument is when the rules happen. It never says apply after all modifiers for Rites or that it is unmodified.

To convince the Soulless group you need to show us a rule or rules that say a) rites of battle is unmodifiable. b) it is applied after all modifiers have been placed like soulless c) that using rites somehow trumps the fact a model IS with in range of soulless and now their ld counts as seven, regardless of where they got it, as that is soulless only criteria.

I just don't see the wording in Rites that would make this count without reading way to much into what it says.

Also in the main rule book it says that if there is a rules disagreement we are supposed to roll off for it. And......I got a 6.

What is the unit's Leadership? 7

What is the Captain/RoB owner's Ld? 10

Since they are using the captains ld of 10. Their effective ld would be 10. Soulless makes it count as 7. easy.

You have no RAW justification to suggest that the RoB model's Ld is lowered to 7.

All RoB says is they use his Ld. It does not say "in place of."

I'm sure we'll go through some elaborate system of semantic gymnastics now.

Trekari wrote:You have no RAW justification to suggest that the RoB model's Ld is lowered to 7.

All RoB says is they use his Ld. It does not say "in place of."

You are correct. It isn't lowered to 7. It counts as 7.

It can be 1.000, 10 or the square root if Pi.....it counts as 7.

If the RoB model is not in the area of effect, then his Ld is 10. The affected models use his Ld, which is 10.

Theirs has been dropped to 7 by being within the Soulless AoE.

They aren't using their Ld. It could count as 1,000, 10 or the square root of Pi....they aren't using their value, so it doesn't matter.

The wheels on the bus go round and round. Round and round. Round and round.

So basically both sides are convinced. This should be dropped unless someone brings forth a new approach.

I have said my piece and wouldn't mind seeing it the other way as I play DA. However the RAW just does not support this. This feels like the old discussion of a terminator in fact is not wearing terminator armor because it is not listed in his war gear. It strikes me as a wish list or looking for a potential loop hole. If there is a small rules difference use common sense. Common sense IMHO does not support RoB in this case. As RAI would suggest Soulless wins out as well.

By the way lets get more people in on this. RoB operates just like Vox casters, with minor wording changes. Why don't they get some love here.

A comparison to Book of Lucius might alsoprove relevant.

Shae1emade is right. I think we've come to the point where no one will be convinced by further argument, I suggest, in all my arrogance, that the topic be dropped before someone gets teste and sparks something nasty.

Oh and Shae1emade?

I rolled to see who was right, and I got a ten.. cause I was using rights of battle

LOL hahahahhaha!! Well your dice was within 12" of mine so it counted as a 7. AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I started it all over again!

Sha1emade wrote:Actually it says their leadership counts as 7. Not that it is 7 that it counts as 7. Their leadership isn't 10 either but they use ld 10 from the captain witch now counts as 7. Soulless says if ANY enemy unit with a MODEL within 12" COUNTS as LD 7. It seems pretty cut and dry. Rites of battle does not say use the captain's unmodified leadership.

Yes making sense does not matter in a rules discussion but it can help determine how a rule is supposed to work, kind of like a guideline. In this case all rules are satisfied and it makes sense. So a double whammy.

The problem with these two rules and where I think the Rites of Battle crowd is making their argument is when the rules happen. It never says apply after all modifiers for Rites or that it is unmodified.

To convince the Soulless group you need to show us a rule or rules that say a) rites of battle is unmodifiable. b) it is applied after all modifiers have been placed like soulless c) that using rites somehow trumps the fact a model IS with in range of soulless and now their ld counts as seven, regardless of where they got it, as that is soulless only criteria.

I just don't see the wording in Rites that would make this count without reading way to much into what it says.

Also in the main rule book it says that if there is a rules disagreement we are supposed to roll off for it. And......I got a 6.

Alright, let's take a stab at this one.

"If a company master is on the table, then all other Dark Angels units may use his leadership for Morale, Pinning, or Leadership tests, but not Psychic tests."

That is the exact wording from the DA codex. I think the key word here is 'use' his leadership. They do not have it, they merely use it.

With the pariah, you would have your leadership 8 marines reduced to leadership 7 (along with their LD 9 sergeant). This is uncontested.

However, what happens when that RoB leadership is brought in? Well, imagine that the pariah modifies their stat line (they now 'count as' having ld 7 right?). Well, with RoB it doesn't matter what their leadership is, as they use the master's instead.

You are right though, nowhere anywhere does it say the captain's leadership can't be modified, or is brought in before/after modifiers. The problem is that the captain's leadership isn't modified here. I just don't think this is relevant to the debate. They're USING his leadership, not TAKING his leadership. RoB doesn't modify their stat line, as the pariah temporarily does, it simply allows them to use a different value than their own when taking certain tests.

I'll use cars here as an analogy. Let's say that you own a VW. The pariah replaces your car with a Ford. However, you are also able to borrow your daddy's bimmer. What cars are you able to drive? Well you can use your car, which is the Ford, or you can use your daddy's car, which is the bimmer. Unless the pariah replaces your dads car as well, his car is unaffected by the pariah's ability, and does not disallow you from using it, so the ability to use it is entirely unaffected.

Yeah, you got it. It doesn't matter what their leadership counts as, because they're not using it.

Still not convinced. No new information has been brought to the table here as well as the same argument presented pretty much the same way. However from a new mouth and using a different tactic so that is better. However a nice presentation. I will respond by basically saying the same thing that has been said, effectively doing the same thing right back, however with respect I will change my verbiage and presentation but will end up saying pretty much the same thing. This has pretty much become a circular argument. We are really diving too much in to what the words say as opposed to what they should mean. Anyway... Round and Round. Round and Round.

Ok so my take on the TAKING and USING leadership. Is that what we really are down to? As far as I am concerned they are the same thing when all the chips are down. You roll dice based off of that number, period. In the end all models that have leadership USE leadership period, selective application of these words doesn't change that. Regardless of where they got it from. Say sgt, vox caster, captain and so on , what ever leadership they are USING, doesn't matter where it came from, the squad in question would have TEMPORY ownership of that LD for that test. I believe you are confusing where you get the LD 10 from and who is ends up with it. According to your example lets say: EXAMPLE: squad of 5 marines is in battle vs parahias. Pariahs kill 4 marines. Marines kill 0 paraihs. Leadership must be taken. However according to you it is 10 not 7. Well the marines still lost by 4. Well the captain is not in the fight and not with in 12" range so HIS leadership is not effected and they are just USING his leadership so it would be 10. This uses the same argument as what you are using right now. Problem is I don't think anyone will try this one on as they will lose and they know it. It comes down to the fact that his leadership has to be modifiable or the entire army becomes broken. They USE his leadership that they had TAKEN from the captain and it would be 6 after the -4 combat resolution if they were fighting say, smurfs. So it is modified in the same combat but not effected by soulless? One modifieer works but not the other? Principle is the same. I still don't buy it. Can't duck one modifier and not the other.

Thank you and I would like to dedicate this novel to my family. Who have been supportive and....


Just my 2 cents....

You've made up your mind, enjoy your game. Good luck getting people to accept your point of view, however.

Right back at ya. Gotta love obscure rules. Hope this never comes up however. We have all pretty much made up our minds on this one. One way or the other.

Wait wait wait wait wait...

"If a company master is on the table, then all other Dark Angels units may use his leadership for Morale, Pinning, or Leadership tests, but not Psychic tests."

Pariah gene (Im a bit hazy on the fluff buut) and all that, anti-psykerness. Basically its a psychic effect, pretty obviously so.

Granted actual psychic tests are not being made or taken but it does make a note of not being able to affect (effect?) psychic tests.


-As for the wording, well.. they may use his LD10. Thier ld 8 (or 9 sm's) which get lowered to 7 when within range of the souless ability

- They choose to use the chapter masters LD10 score. They now have LD10

- Thier still within range of the 12'' souless ability thus the LD is reduced to 7.


How could a normal grunt space marine be guided by a commanders presence or command where that same commander would be effected and reduced by that power. It doesnt make logical sense. Another point for the pro souless arguement.

All I can see for the pro RoB argument is a symantics issue on the wording.

Obviously wording isn't important at all when debating written rules.

...

Razerous wrote:
-As for the wording, well.. they may use his LD10. Thier ld 8 (or 9 sm's) which get lowered to 7 when within range of the souless ability

- They choose to use the chapter masters LD10 score. They now have LD10

- Thier still within range of the 12'' souless ability thus the LD is reduced to 7.

"The" leadership is not reduced to 7. "The unit" 's leadership is reduced to 7. But they are not using their leadership value of 7, they are using their commander's leadership value, which is 10.

Pick up the unit's leadership. Wad it into a ball. Throw it away. It's completely irrelevant. All that matters is that their commander's leadership value is 10, and that they can use it. Unless something happens to the commander, their leadership is going to be the same as his, which is 10 because of the specific wording of the ability 'Rites of Battle'. 'Souless' is not written specifically enough to override this ability because it only affects the unit and makes no reference to outside sources of leadership, like an Imperial officer's command bubble, Rites of Battle, or the Book of St. Lucius.

All I can see for the pro RoB argument is a symantics issue on the wording.

Right, and that's what wins the argument.

Sourclams, How about a Tactical Squad getting beaten in CC by 4? What leadership value will they "use" for their breaktest (assuming a Captain with RoB on the table)?

According to the rules for Morale Checks, p.43 of the rulebook:

"Morale checks (also called Morale tests) are taken by rolling 2D6 and comparing the total to the unit's Leadership value."

So, in order for a unit to 'use' the Captain's leadership for Morale check, using the Captain's leadership for such purposes would be the same as the unit having the Captain's leadership, since Morale checks are only made by rolling 2D6 and comparing the total to the unit's Leadership value.

Although we appear to be "on the same side", Nurglitch, I cannot allow that to slide in good concience. The unit is is expresly allowed to use the Captains Leadership by way of RoB. Codex trumps Rulebook.

Steelmage99 wrote:Sourclams, How about a Tactical Squad getting beaten in CC by 4? What leadership value will they "use" for their breaktest (assuming a Captain with RoB on the table)?

The base leadership is 10, because they're using the Captain's. To that they apply the -4 situational modifier for being beaten in close combat.

Now, before you scream that the Pariah's 'make you Leadership 7' ability is the same thing, you're right.

But there's another special ability in play that lets the DA player circumvent that by choosing Leadership 10.

It's much like Kustom Force Field granting vehicles two cover saves: on the one hand, it gives a nearby Trukk a 5+ cover save, because it is a model. Simultaneously, it gives a 4+ cover save because the Trukk counts as obscured. The Ork player then picks the 4+ cover save granted by obscurement granted by KFF because it's better in every way than a 5+ granted by KFF.

The unit is Ld7, but the player can choose to use the commander's Ld10.

And I agree with your reply to Nurglitch.

Steelmage99:

This discussion will be better served if you don't consider there to be sides at all. We're all on the same side for figuring out the truth of the matter, which is presumably why the discussion is even taking place in the first place.

That out of the way, I'm not saying that the unit cannot use the Captain's Leadership to make Morale, Pinning, and Leadership tests (excluding Psychic tests). Obviously it can. My point is that the semantic argument distinguishing between 'using' and 'having' a particular Leadership value is moot since by the rules there can be no distinction. Hence it is not a case of whether the Codex somehow 'trumps' the rulebook, but the case that in order for Rites of Battle to be applied, using the Leadership value of any model is the same as having the Leadership value of that model.

Take the Ld9 Sergeant presumably leading the Dark Angel squad: the unit always uses the highest Leadership value in the unit. Again, using a Leadership value is using a Leadership value.

Take the Leadership Tests on p.8 of the rulebook:

"If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value."

Yeah, and you've got a Leadership 8(7) tactical marine, a Leadership 9(7) Veteran sergeant, and way over in the corner, a Leadership 10 Commander.

Choosing between leadership 8(7), 9(7), and 10, 10 is highest.