Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Except that if the unit uses the Captain's Leadership, then the unit has a Leadership of 10, which counts as 7 due to the nearby Pariahs.

Except it's not.

Yup. As the rules indicate, both the rules for Leadership tests and Morale checks, using is having.

Only because you made it up.

You know why arguing with you is such a pain? Because you write your own interpretation of the rules and go "NUP!!! THEM'S THA RULEZ!!!" And then if people try to argue with you that your whacky interpretation of the rules actually is not the rules, you create some bogus logic map that kills a hundred thousand pixels while still simply screaming "NUP!!! THEM'S THA RULEZ GUYZ LALALALALA!!!!!"

What you quoted out of the basic rulebook is the rule for rolling a unit's leadership test. Except that the unit isn't using their leadership value, as indicated in the codex, which trumps the basic rulebook, it's using its commander's leadership value. This "OMG USING = HAVING" is some whacko thing you made up. Again.

And no matter what that number is , if you are in range of pariah it COUNTS as 7 (unless lower of course).
There's the word that makes the pariah power over rule the RoB.
when testing you use the Ld value , with RoB it becomes 10, But it is still the unit that tests . Not the commander, the units ld has become whatever his is. If in range it is counted as 7.
As much as i wish otherwise, the pariah's rule wins

Except that I didn't make it up. I pointed out what the rules say. The rules say that if you're taking a Morale check, then:

"Morale checks (also called Morale tests) are taken by rolling 2D6 and comparing the total to the unit's Leadership value."

The rules for Leadership Tests tell us that:

"If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value."

So what is the unit's Leadership value, normally?

The unit's Leadership value is normally that of the model with the highest Leadership value. That is the Leadership value that is used for Leadership tests and Morale checks.

So when the Dark Angel's Rites of Battle rule says:

"If a Company Master is on the table then all other Dark Angel units may use his Leadership (10)for Morale, Pinning and Leadership tests, but not Psychic tests."

That means that all other Dark Angel units on the board may have a Leadership of 10, they use Ld10 for Morale checks and so on.

So when the Pariah's Soulless rule says:

"Any enemy unit with a model within 12" of a Pariah counts as having Leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that."

The Dark Angel unit, supposing it includes a Sergeant, normally has Ld9, because the Sergeant has Ld9 and Ld9 > L8.

Combined with the Captain's Rites of Battle, the Dark Angel unit now has Ld10, and uses Ld10 where Morale, Pinning, and Leadership tests excluding Psychic tests are concerned.

But within 12" of a Pariah, the unit's Leadership now counts as Ld7.

sourclams wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:Sourclams, How about a Tactical Squad getting beaten in CC by 4? What leadership value will they "use" for their breaktest (assuming a Captain with RoB on the table)?

The base leadership is 10, because they're using the Captain's. To that they apply the -4 situational modifier for being beaten in close combat.

Now, before you scream that the Pariah's 'make you Leadership 7' ability is the same thing, you're right.

But there's another special ability in play that lets the DA player circumvent that by choosing Leadership 10.

It's much like Kustom Force Field granting vehicles two cover saves: on the one hand, it gives a nearby Trukk a 5+ cover save, because it is a model. Simultaneously, it gives a 4+ cover save because the Trukk counts as obscured. The Ork player then picks the 4+ cover save granted by obscurement granted by KFF because it's better in every way than a 5+ granted by KFF.

The unit is Ld7, but the player can choose to use the commander's Ld10.

.

So, in effect, Rites of Battle are comparable to an army-wide Book of Lucius?

Not quite, because Lucius would let you ignore things like combat resolution, but yeah more or less same principle. Pariahs special ability attacks the unit's leadership, which they aren't using. It's like the car you aren't driving getting a flat tire.

Nurglitch wrote:If a Company Master is on the table then all other Dark Angel units may use his Leadership (10)for Morale, Pinning and Leadership tests, but not Psychic tests.

They're not using "their" leadership. They're using HIS, that guy, over there's ----> leadership, because the rule specifically says so. If the rule said 'units become Leadership 10', that would be a completely different animal. But they don't say that, you're writing it in.

That means that all other Dark Angel units on the board may have a Leadership of 10, they use Ld10 for Morale checks and so on.

No, that means they're leadership 8 or 9, or whatever, but they can use Leadership 10. You are re-writing the rules based on your interpretation, wherein everything becomes leadership 10. They're not Leadership 10, they're using another model's leadership, because that's what the special rule lets them do.

So when the Pariah's Soulless rule says:

Any enemy unit with a model within 12" of a Pariah counts as having Leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that.

Yes, the leadership value that they are not using is 7.

In the 40K rules there are many places where the term "counts as" is used.
If one model moves in a unit the whole units "count as" moving, even though only one moved
vehicles pivoting do not "count as" moving even though they have.
Models with Relentless "count as" stationary for shooting
Twin linked weapons have 2 weapons that "count as" one with a re-roll
A vehicle Vulnerable to Blast/templates has every hit "Counts as" 2 hits.
This is a wording that is used to mean that even though a unit/model is in one state we treat it as if it is in another state.
Ilregardless of the units actual Ld if it is over 7 it "counts as" 7
The rule is clear ,it did not say you subtract or reduce the units value, It just treats it as if it was 7.
The SM unit in question is still Ld8, allowed to use RoB Ld10, but Counts As Ld7

I agree with Sourclams. This one is pretty RAW tight.

The Rites of Battle does not state anywhere that it 'replaces' anything.

Simply that you can 'use' (not replace or any other such non-sense) 'his' leadership.

So as long as the Master is still alive or his LD value is unaffected (through a variety of reasons) then the unit can use his (again note: not substitute, not replace, not change their LD value) for the morale/LD check.

Simply Read the Rules as Written on this one and it comes to a logical conclusion.

Every other post against either writes an 'interpretation' of the rule or claim the way the necron rule is writen that it doesn't matter are all opinions or interpretations, but not RAW.

I know RAW is not always right (4th ed Rapid Fire anyone?). But, this one seems logical and makes sense in both gaming terms and seems 'in the spirit of the game'.

See the Helm of Command in Vampire Counts FAQ for the GW answer on this. It is pretty clear

Bear in mind as well that the Pariah's rule states that the MODELS in the unit have their Ld set to 7. In other words, you have a Sgt with Ld9 and some Marines with Ld8, and all of them now have 7 instead.

Now, this means a Neural Shredder wounds on a 3+ (Str8 vs Ld7) as opposed to wounding on a 5+ on the Marines, and a 6+ on the Sgt. The models simply have a different stat line.

Now, you would not argue that they had to roll using a Ld9 or Ld8 with RoB just because they had a different stat line. The whole point of the ability is to use someone else's stat line instead of their own for the roll. Therefore, you ignore the fact their stat line now says "Ld7" instead of "Ld8" and use the stat line of the commander, which is to say Ld10.

Uses does not equal has, it simply means use one instead of the other. You do not replace anything, but instead reference another source.

So, do modifiers work against RoB? Say, losing by 5 wounds. Is rob modifiable? I think it is, because, you are still using the Commanders LD. That has been fulfilled rules wise. The next step would be to see if any modifiers were to come into place (losing combat, psi scream, or any special rules) Guess what, Pariahs are a special rule.

It's modifiable because there's nothing that says it wouldn't be, ala the Book of St. Lucius. Regardless of which leadership value they choose to use, 9 or 10, the Marines are going to carry the -5 penalty they lost combat by.

This is unlike the Soulless special rule, which has nothing to carry over. All it does is set the unit's leadership to "count as having leadership 7", and, as has already been explained, the unit is not using its own leadership.

Wehrkind:

That's not correct. The Soulless rule says:

"Any enemy unit with a model within 12" of a Pariah counts as having Leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that."

The unit's Leadership counts as 7.

Likewise, since as I've shown earlier in the thread, the rules for Morale check and Leadership tests never say that a Leadership value is used, a Leadership value is something that the unit has. If a unit has a Leadership of 10, then it must roll 10 or under on a Leadership test or Morale check.

So either the Rites of Battle cannot apply, since it specifies a reference to something that has no extension in the rules, using, or using is synonymous with having.

I see your logic Nurglitch and where you are coming from.

But as the rule quoted: "Morale checks (also called Morale tests) are taken by rolling 2D6 and comparing the total to the unit's Leadership value."

Note the "...comparing the total *to the unit's Leadership value*."

this tells me that you make a LD/Morale check and compare it to what it says on the paper.

And, "If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value."

Really has no bearing on this, because this rule just says if you have a guy in the unit that needs to take a morale/Ld check, then use that dudes LD.

In the case of the Parriah rule, That "dude's" LD would also be a 7.

What I am saying: Is, Yes, you do roll a morale check versus the printed paper of the LD value of said unit (baring a higher one in the unit).

But Rites of Battle allows you to *use* the LD value of the commanders. His is unadjusted.

Look its like saying the commander himself has to take the LD test. Since the Commander is nowhere near the parriahs, then he uses his un-adjusted one.

Thats how Rites of Battle reads to me. Simply the unit *uses* (as it says in the rule itself) the LD value (as printed on paper) of the commander himself.

EDIT: To show a 'precedence' of sorts.

The Ork Mob rule 'does' use the word 'substitute' for its leadership change. And hence when in range of a parriah unit would have its leadership lowered to 7. As their LD was literally substituted for a higher one. This is *not* how Rites of Battle is worded. There is no substitution. Only the word *use*.

Also I know this is waaay off base here. But I did look up that Vampire Count FAQ about the helm of command and a unit under its influence and another unit that would 'lower' their stat line. And GW in this case ruled that when using the helm that the unit in question still uses the helm owners stat instead with no modifiers from the offending unit.

paxidon:

The connection is that Morale checks are taken by comparing the unit's Leadership value to the results of a 2D6 roll. And the value used as the unit's Leadership is the highest Leadership of its constituent models.

As you say, "if you have a guy in the unit that needs to take a morale/Ld check, then use that dudes LD", the combination of those two rules implies that the unit uses the Leadership value that it has.

In the case of the Soulless rule, the Leadership of the unit's constituent models is not affected, and what counts as Ld7 is the unit's Leadership.

Since, due to the Soulless rule being in effect, the unit's Leadership counts as having Ld7, you use that for Morale, Pinning, and Leadership checks that the unit has to make.

Where Rites of Battle is in effect, a unit uses the Leadership of the Captain. Where it uses the Captain's Leadership, and that is Ld10, the unit has Ld10 for Morale checks, Pinning tests, and Leadership tests excluding Psychic tests.

So a unit under the effects of both the Rites of Battle and Soulless has Ld10, but counts as having Ld7, and hence uses Ld7.

Naturally I agree that where Soulless does not affect the Captain, his Leadership remains unaffected. But the Captain does not take the Morale checks, Pinning tests, and Leadership tests; the unit using his Leadership does.

And since the unit using his Leadership has his Leadership, since Morale checks and Leadership tests are made using the unit's Leadership, and that unit is affected by Soulless, they count as having Ld7.

Nurglitch wrote:
And since [I made up that] the unit using his Leadership has his Leadership, since Morale checks and Leadership tests are made using the [Captain's] Leadership, and that unit is affected by Soulless, they count as having Ld[10].

Couple little changes there.

As I've said before, do you not find the LD before any modifiers? That is the 1st step. Determining what the units LD is or who's you're gonna use. The next step is applying modifiers. After you get the LD and subtract the modifiers, then you roll the test. This is the sequence correct? If I am, then the result would be that the souless rule would be in place.

I would buy that. Much simpler that has been said but effective I think.

thanoson wrote:As I've said before, do you not find the LD before any modifiers? That is the 1st step. Determining what the units LD is or who's you're gonna use. The next step is applying modifiers. After you get the LD and subtract the modifiers, then you roll the test. This is the sequence correct? If I am, then the result would be that the souless rule would be in place.

This.

Basically the Argument here is either

-Marines get LD10 from RoB guy (sorry don't know his name), then get modified down to 7
OR
-Marines get modified to LD7, then get LD10 from RoB guy

Okay, Looking at both codices (is the newest DA codex 2006?), the rules are:
Pariahs: Soulless: Any enemy unit with a model within 12" of a Pariah counts as having leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that.
RoB: If a company master is on the table then all other Dark Angels may use his leadership for Morale, Pinning, and Leadership tests, but not Psychic tests.

I still think that the proper order is: They USE the guy's LD for tests, which is then MODIFIED by Soulless to 7

---

ALSO, another possible way of looking at it is: "...all other Dark Angels may use his leadership for..." Notice the "may"? Maybe this is a case wherein they couldn't, as it is being reduced to 7 and not allowing anything else to happen?

---

Of course, as has been said already, the argument is wholly about what order the two rules go in, to decide the outcome.

I would say that is the meat of the argument. The ultimate problem is the order of events. It almost comes down to personal choice at this point. Some say before some say after. Don't think either side will concede with out a proper FAQ. Luckily this is not that common.

Also, I am not sure if anyone thought of this, but I thought it might be worthwhile to email GW with the question, JUST to see what they have to say. I am not sure how much faith you guys put into GW's responses, but it's worth a shot anyways...

But yeah, this WHOLE THING is all about the order in which the rules apply (Which I still think is get base value (RoB) then modify (Soulless)).

The problem with your argument is that both of these powers/abilitlies is that both have the same effect on the Ld value.
Yes the marines are Ld8
they are within 12" of a unit of Pariahs
There is a commander with a Ld of 10 with the special rule Rites of Battle.
given every unit may use the commanders Ld (10)
unit of SM is within 12" of unit of pariahs
Unit of SM Ld is 8
Pariahs rule souless kicks in.
Pariahs go.you count as Ld7
SM's go wait we have RoB and we get to use our commanders Ld so we are Ld10
Pariahs go,you still count as Ld7


we don't care what your Ld value is , we still treat it as Ld7. we don't change your Ld we just treat it as Ld 7

SeattleDV8 wrote:The problem with your argument is that both of these powers/abilitlies is that both have the same effect on the Ld value.

No, they do not, this is a misconception that people are reading into the scenario which completely skews their perception of the interaction of the rules. One special ability nukes a unit's leadership. My unit is close to your unit so your unit's leadership is bad. This is what Soulless does.

Rights of Battle is not the inverse of this. If Rights of Battle said, "All models become Leadership 10" then Soulless would take precedence. What Rights of Battle *actually* does, however, is to let you use a different unit's leadership. This is specifically what the special rule Rights of Battle says; the unit may (is not obligated to, but may) use the Captain's leadership. It pulls in a different unit's leadership. That is different from simply making your models leadership 10.

Here's the closest analogy I can think of:

I have $800 in my bank account.

Someone hacks my account and steals $800.

However, I have my friend's PIN number and ATM card, because he gave them to me and told me to go hog wild. My friend has $1,000 in his account.

[Now, the question here is not 'how much money is in my bank account (what is my Leadership Value), we don't really care. The real question is 'how much stuff can I buy?' (the leadership I use for passing tests), and the answer to this one is obviously $1,000.]

BUT BUT SOULLESS! SOULLESS MEANS ALL YOUR MONEY IS GONE!!1

No, the only way Soulless (the hacker) can affect my buying power is if it also goes and steals my friend's account balance (within range of the Captain).

This is the difference between using a different unit's leadership (which is what Rights of Battle specifically says it does) and having the same leadership value as another unit. If Rights of Battle simply gave you Leadership 10 (I think Sicarius' rule is worded this way), then there would be no argument. But that's not what RoB does.

As sourclams said, Everyone seems to be misunderstanding the Rites of Battle rule.

Rites of Battle does not make the units LD equal to the Commander

Rites of Battle does not make the units LD equal to the Commander

What it does is allow the unit to *use* the LD of another unit (Commander) instead of their own for Morale/LD checks

Read it well.

The units LD is and has always been 7 per the Parriah rule when in effect.

They (the unit) may decided *not* to use *their* LD of 7 and opt (as per RoB) to use another LD for the morale test.

The LD in question is the Commanders who in this scenario is across the board and unaffected by Parriahs.

So, 1) They (unit) *are* LD 7.

2) They (unit) must take a morale check

3) For the morale check, they (unit) use the LD value of the Commander

Where everyone seems to be misunderstanding is that when using the LD of the Commander, then at that point it is reduced to 7. Edited: This is not the case.

How can this be, the Commanders LD is *not* 7. It is 10. Its as if the Commander himself must take the LD test.

Edited again to keep from double posting

Lets look at the Rule for morale checks from the BGB itself and break it down.

"Morale checks (also called Morale tests) are taken by rolling 2D6 and comparing the total to the unit's Leadership value."

So first, you roll 2D6

Second you then compare to the "*unit's Leadership value"

The Pariah rule changes the LD of the of the unit to 7

The RoB rule allows the unit to not use their LD value as needed by the BGB quoted above, and instead you make the 2D6 roll and per the RoB rule then check it against the value of the Commander. The Commander's LD value is not affected by the Pariah in this scenario and his LD is the unaffected value of 10.

Sourclams, I realize that debating with people online can be frustrating, but being snide and snarky doesn't help the discussion at all and simply creates animosity. Please stop this, as it is a form of trolling and not allowed on Dakka.

Thank you.

OH OH! I got an answer from GW already! Here it is:

Hi Sean,


Good question, and over much debate, we have determined that the rites of battle rule happens first, so their Ld value would be increased to 10, then the Pariahs would cause it to drop to 7.


Jeff Armstrong
Direct Services
Games Workshop Canada
1-888-498-7655

So there we go, an "official" response from GW to answer this question. AGAIN the soulless rule does actually win out.

Anyone ever heard of Jeff Armstrong? John Spencer is the only 'sanctioned' rules guy at askyourquestion@GW. 8 ball, I understand where you're attempting to come from, but the unofficial Rulez fellas' and customer service reps opinions don't actually count for anything. John Spencer has claimed that Deff Rollas don't work when ramming vehicles, but all the tournaments still let you do it. It's a dichotomy that I also find to be very frustrating, that GW employees' opinion have no weight at GW sanctioned events, but that's reality.

Iorek: I've been self-editing posts multiple times for that specific purpose. Kill Krazy can testify to that, I've talked to him a couple times. Don't know what to say beyond that.