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I was wondering on what page of the 5th ed BBB that the "Counts As" rule is laid out.
I have gone through it and can't find it and see so many refs to it online I wanted to read the exact wording of it.

There isn't one? GW enforces a policy of WYSIWYG?

Not sure you'll find it in the book. This is the kind of thing that's agreed between players before the game starts e.g. "I want to try using 10 genestealers, but I don't have the models yet so I'm going to use these 10 gretchin instead."

In Jervis Johnson's standard bearer article a few months back, he was boasting about how he's used the same grey coloured Space Marine army to test rules for Black Templars, Space Wolves, Dark Angels etc etc

In short, most people won't mind if it's only for the odd game.

REALLY?!?!
I played back when 4th had JUST come out. and JUST got back into it in the last 2-3 months. I was just reading all over many boards about people using "counts-as" to play CSM using the SM codex, etc etc.

I planned on making EC "Berzerkers" for my CSM:EC army and modeling them in EC colors and wanted to make sure where the line was. Now I am well and trully confused as is always spoken of like it was a NEW thing in the 5th Ed.

There is no rule for or against it, so its all up to you and whoever you play.

After the really well done genestealer cult and Kroot Bikers I'd say that you can play any models you want. Just make sure it looks good and thay the person you are playing can tell what is what.

To OP:
I think the ‘What You See Is What You Get’ grey box on page 47 of the rulebook is what you are looking for.

In addition to Webbe's answer, I think official blessing to use certain models to count as others has been occasionally given for certain codices when models might otherwise have become invalid, but I can't locate a specific example at the moment.

"Counts As' means that you can use models to stand in for other models, but you need to be clear and consistent in how you do it.

I can't add anything that hasn't been already said. Though I did ask permission in my last game to use my DE w/ Blasters as DE w/ Shredders instead. Let me just say, I'm going to get alot of Shredders for my DE now.

Great, thanks for all the feedback guys.

I am going to paint up some crazy Slaaneshi marines and they will represent "Berzerkers, and some equally crazy Drug Addled Slaanshi marines will represent "Plague Marines". I plan on making it obvious as to what is what and hopefully the lack of actuall "Marks" doesn't offend any purists.

If it's obvious, it shouldn't be a problem. I'd consider using parts from the Berzerker sprue or PM parts with the models to help clarify what they are. Giving them a different shoulder pad, different colored helmet or backpack, etc would work too - anything that makes them stand out.

I figure what is very confusing to most is the use of "counts as" and "proxy", sometimes used interchangeable, sometimes not. Sometimes one or both is used derogatory, sometimes not...

I wonder how to judge/name these cases:
0. Lysander used in an Ultramarine army as 'Ultrasander'. (the SM codex notes this as reasonable).
1. Space marine troop with missile launchers. Used as multimeltas instead (because the base box came with them).
2. Normal CSM used as Plague Marines (because they were in the starter box).
3. Chaos Space marine army used with space marine rules (because the rules are better for anything but lash of submission).
4. Adeptus Custodes Army using Grey Knight ruleset (because it is the super special unit of the special units of the emperor's special units?).
5. Adeptus Mechanicus army using tyranid ruleset (because Synapse is a good representation of a magos controlling constructs? Or because tyranid MCs ruled 4th edition?).

I made it easy for myself and call all of it "counts as".

I try to make the distiction between "counts as" and "proxy." For "counts as" I try to find the closest mini have to what the actual model being represented should have. So for example, I went to Gamesday a few years ago and the mini they were giving out was a vet. sergeant with a powerfist and stormbolter, and I use him as my counts as Pedro.

When I deal with proxy, I most likely do not have the minis in question and ask my opponent's permission to use a group of minis to proxy as the unit they are intended to represent.

Tierlieb hit the nail on the head.
Normally the two terms "proxy" and "counts as" should mean different things, but they are easily confused.

In Tier's list, numbers 1 and 2 would be proxies because you are using one model as another because you don't own the model you want to use.
The others are a case of using one set of rules to count as another different army, either for fluff or gaming reasons.

I field an Adeptus Arbites army using the Witch Hunters Codex. Standard troopers are in the Codex already but I have to use other rules from the codex to represent other parts of my army ie I use Inquisitor rules for my judge and acolytes with mancathers as cyber-mastiffs.

Tierlieb wrote:5. Adeptus Mechanicus army using tyranid ruleset (because Synapse is a good representation of a magos controlling constructs? Or because tyranid MCs ruled 4th edition?).

I'd like to see this one, please.

Traditionally, "proxy" is when the model being used is nothing like what it represents, e.g. WFB Skeletons with CCW & Shield on 20mm square bases proxy for Space Marines with Bolters, PF Vet, Lascannon & Plasma on 25mm round bases.

Tierlieb wrote:0. Lysander used in an Ultramarine army as 'Ultrasander'.

Legit, counts as.

Tierlieb wrote:1. Space marine troop with missile launchers. Used as multimeltas instead

This is proxy, as MLs aren't Multi-Meltas. Assuming there are no MLs and *all* Sm-carried Heavy Weapons are Multi-Meltas, then it's OK as "count as".

Tierlieb wrote:2. Normal CSM used as Plague Marines

OK as "count as", assuming clearly converted / painted as PM, and no ordinary CSM / indistinct PM are present.

Tierlieb wrote:3. Chaos Space marine army used with space marine rules

OK as "count as", as it's just spikey normal marines, assuming all weapons and options match up aside from the armor.

Tho, I can't imagine why anyone would do this, as CSM is a stronger and more interesting book overall...

Tierlieb wrote:4. Adeptus Custodes Army using Grey Knight ruleset

OK as "count as" - there are no Custodes rules out there, and GK is a good match.

Custodes can also count as Termies w/ LCs or whatever else someone wants, as long as the rules and conversions are clearly stated at the start of the game.

Tierlieb wrote:5. Adeptus Mechanicus army using tyranid ruleset

Somewhat strange for "counts as" - but there are no AM rules per se, so I guess this is possible.

The problem is that this is very non-Imperial in nature, which is bad when representing an Imperial force. I'd suggest to play AdMech as CSM? Or reserve the full range of stuff for Apocalypse?

from page 47
"The rule is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model so [that] your opponents can clearly see what they are facing."

Basically, no modeling for 'surprise advantage,' so to speak, in that your opponents can't tell the regular rank and files for the souped up CC specialists. Everything must be uniform, and everything must be clearly visible.

That being said, the common practice is that all non-standard equipment (ie any options, purchased wargear, etc) must be represented in some uniform fashion. Standard equipment does not need to be modeled onto the figures (every marine doesn't need frag+krak grenades for example), but everything non-standard does.

As for one type of model "counting as" another, one must differentiate first between "proxy" models and "counts as" models. Your case, of creating slaaneshi berzerkers, is simply a counts as. Using a regular marine with a bright yellow elastic band around his head to mark him as a plasma cannoner is using a "proxy." The former is perfectly tournament legal (so long as the models are roughly the same size/shape, so as to gain no advantage that way), while the former is not.

Adeptus Mechanicus using the tyranid rules would be pretty sweet. I've seen them done using IG rules, but I think using walker tanks as MCs works better than having them count as regular tanks. The only strange thing would be having a primarily shooting army (ad mech) using the rules of a mostly CC army...

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:from page 47
"The rule is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model so [that] your opponents can clearly see what they are facing."

Basically, no modeling for 'surprise advantage,' so to speak, in that your opponents can't tell the regular rank and files for the souped up CC specialists. Everything must be uniform, and everything must be clearly visible.

That being said, the common practice is that all non-standard equipment (ie any options, purchased wargear, etc) must be represented in some uniform fashion. Standard equipment does not need to be modeled onto the figures (every marine doesn't need frag+krak grenades for example), but everything non-standard does.

As for one type of model "counting as" another, one must differentiate first between "proxy" models and "counts as" models. Your case, of creating slaaneshi berzerkers, is simply a counts as. Using a regular marine with a bright yellow elastic band around his head to mark him as a plasma cannoner is using a "proxy." The former is perfectly tournament legal (so long as the models are roughly the same size/shape, so as to gain no advantage that way), while the former is not.

Adeptus Mechanicus using the tyranid rules would be pretty sweet. I've seen them done using IG rules, but I think using walker tanks as MCs works better than having them count as regular tanks. The only strange thing would be having a primarily shooting army (ad mech) using the rules of a mostly CC army...

Nid's can be pretty shooty if you kit them out to be really. All the base troops can have some kind of weapon, even if only 12" in range. I like the way you can add lil extra's to Nid's fitting the AdMec list as well. It can be used to represent any number of cybernetics and enhancements. The MC's as those Knight walkers is a neat idea too.

A lot depends who you are playing.
Tournaments are pretty much WYSIWYG. No Proxy, No "counts as".
Friendly games vs regular opponents - field what you like, so long as your opponent is clear what things are.
Coke-can dreadnoughts, Fantasy Wizards as Farseers/Exarchs, "that green piece of paper is a LOS-blocking forest" etc.


e.g. I have two Ork Epic Scale Great Gargants that I am proxying as 40k DeffDredds. No conversions, but tried to get weapon load-out accurate. My regular 3 opponents have all said they are happy to play vs this.
I would NOT take them to a store and try to get away with it, and would be happy for the local club to say NO.
Most battles (so far), we have all looked over each others lists before hand, so we know what models are supposed to be what.

BlackSpike wrote:A lot depends who you are playing.
Tournaments are pretty much WYSIWYG. No Proxy, No "counts as".
Friendly games vs regular opponents - field what you like, so long as your opponent is clear what things are.
Coke-can dreadnoughts, Fantasy Wizards as Farseers/Exarchs, "that green piece of paper is a LOS-blocking forest" etc.


e.g. I have two Ork Epic Scale Great Gargants that I am proxying as 40k DeffDredds. No conversions, but tried to get weapon load-out accurate. My regular 3 opponents have all said they are happy to play vs this.
I would NOT take them to a store and try to get away with it, and would be happy for the local club to say NO.
Most battles (so far), we have all looked over each others lists before hand, so we know what models are supposed to be what.

Not true at all. Every tournament I have been to allows some degree of leincey when it comes to "Counts As". Ive had people use Necron bits on Chaos Space Marine models to "Count As" Plague Marines. They didnt feel Plague Marines fit well with a pure Iron Warriors Army and made some coversions so they were more cybernetic, as the IW fluff goes. They stood out just fine and were pointed out before every game. Not one complaint.

From GT's to Adepticon, many a person brings "Counts As" stuff and as logn as its reasonable and pointed out before hand, I have not seen a person turned down. I would as always however, just check with yout TO before you bring them and see how they feel on it.

You have to remember a lot of the people playing in tournaments are the same people who play with there buddies at a local store for fun. As long as you dont show up with something in anyway game breaking, and well done, most would not care to raise a stink about said figures. In fact, most will compliment you on a job well done. In fact I myself at Adepticon last year in the TT had the luck of playing against a team that Phil Kelly was standing in for a player that round. My Deamon Prince for CSM is a combination of Necron Destroyer, Tomb Spider and a Terminator. While he has the "Flight" ability, no one at the entire tournament complaind it doesnt not have Wings modeled onto it. I simply said it moves more in a bounding fashion like a jumping spider with assistance with deamonically energized grav engines. Phil actually complimented the model itself and the idea.

All that is just because, as I said.. we are all gamers and love a good conversion with a good explination that is in no way game breaking.

Ok, here's one- I'm thinking of using Tyranid models I have to "count as" Lizardmen to try out fantasy. Would this be reasonable? They would all be on the appropriate square bases and in movement trays.

Hormagaunts (modelled to stand vertically)- Saurus
Raveners- Saurus on Cold Ones
Lictors- Kroxigor
Warriors with wings (modelled to be elevated on bases)- Terradons

For characters, I have a Broodlord, a Ravener modelled with larger claws, and a Red Terror modelled with wings, which would count as a Scar Veteran, Scar Veteran on Cold One, and TikTaqTo (again all on the appropriate square bases).

Reasonable, yes / no? Or would you call this a proxy?

wow I guess I kicked the hornets nest. :-)

I plainly HATE the new CSM Codex and refuse to make a vanilla hodge podge force. I really wanted to make a Emp. Children army but figured nothing but Noise Marines would work out.

So I am modeling "Berzerkers" as CSM with melee weapons, paint them a slightly diff scheme from the rest of the army, and have used lots of Berzerker bits and just filed off the Khorne icons.
For Plague Marines I am making CSM modeled with many drug injectors and yt another slightly diff shade of colors. Overall I want the army to look like a cohesive force but still be able to use all the tools offered to CSM. Hopefully my opponents won't HATE my work.

When I get around to my CSM, there will be lots of "counts as" to differentiate my PM from NM from KB from CSM & Chosen.

The counts as rule can also be used to make some interesting and custom models.

example, a model with 2 plasma pistols (counts as a MC plasma pistol and he has a PW and Pistol for CC)

a puking snotling on a dreadnought (counts as a heavy flamer)

a wood chipper on the front of a Battle wagon (deff rolla)

a great deceiver painted to look like the laughing god (used as a avatar in harlequin theme army)


usually (99% of the time) this stuff is cool even in tourneys as most players appreciate the extra effort as long as it is easy to remember (i.e. you dont have 15 models converted and armed differently than what they appear)

But what it was intended for was to let older models with wargear that hasnt been updated yet. Before the shock attack gun came out you could use the old one and when people asked what the heck that thing is, you say it counts as a shokk attack gun

Slightly OT, since all SM vehicles now come with smoke dischargers as standard issue, do the dischargers have to be modelled?

Kilkrazy wrote:Slightly OT, since all SM vehicles now come with smoke dischargers as standard issue, do the dischargers have to be modelled?

No, but your opponent is allowed to make fun of you for not assembling your model correctly. It'd be like leaving the headlights or the tracks off.

If it's standard equipment, it doesn't have to be depicted explicitly. It's the optional equipment that needs to be depicted to avoid unpleasantness.

Kilkrazy wrote:Slightly OT, since all SM vehicles now come with smoke dischargers as standard issue, do the dischargers have to be modelled?

It's the same thing as the slightly hysterical flailing of some people regarding CSM in the new codex, 'OMFG, every CSM HAS to be modeled with a BOLTER, a BOLT PISTOL, and a CCW, OMFG OMFG or else it's not WYSIWYG OMG BBQ!' There are absolutely no rules that say not modeling standard equipment means you lose it.

IF your opponent is cool then whatever. However do not expect to do very well in tournaments. Mostly its people in their first year of playing that do that a lot since they often have not fully built up thier army yet.

solkan wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Slightly OT, since all SM vehicles now come with smoke dischargers as standard issue, do the dischargers have to be modelled?

No, but your opponent is allowed to make fun of you for not assembling your model correctly. It'd be like leaving the headlights or the tracks off.

If it's standard equipment, it doesn't have to be depicted explicitly. It's the optional equipment that needs to be depicted to avoid unpleasantness.

That's what I thought.

I dunno if all GW models have smoke dischargers in -- the only one I've got is the Dreadnaught out of AoBR. I'm making all my other SM vehicles from M113 and Bradley 1/35 kits. They don't all have smoke launchers included. I can easily build them out of plastic rod.